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This is a thread about fighters contributing as well as a cavalier. Multiclass should not come up.
We mutts hate being told what to do by presumed authority figures who are weaker than us, but, since we can't kill everyone, here's a new thread.
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Oh good, another thread I'll probably end up ignoring. : D
Play what you like, folks!
I just don't like multiclassing very much, and I play mostly martials.
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Well this is pretty much what I thought it would be from the thread title.
That'll do, blahpers, that'll do.
Whenever I make a Frankenclass, it's because I want to explore a Prestige class of some sort, or it's because I'm boycotting a class I don't like...
Like why make a Magus when there is already an Eldritch Knight, Dragon Disciple and Arcane Archer class?
On top of that, I like my prestige classes to be built using unexpected components, just because I'm a disagreeable narcissist with delusions of supreme creativity.
Like my Ranger/Sorcerer/Eldritch Knight, who I made just to spite the Magus class, and because I REALLY hate gishes... so I made one.
One of the biggest things about multiclassing i've seen is that its usually there because one class gets a secret bypass to combat options.
Truthfully I agree, people dip URogue because the dex to damage options are so restrictive and feat heavy. People dip ranger and slayer because thats how you avoid having to split stats between strength and dex in order to twf. Many classes and archetypes are really frontloaded, getting the best options of the class within a level or 2.
Not sure there's any real solution to that.
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Well, dips in barbarian and ragechemist simultaneously can be fun. It's a bit risky due to the ability damage, so a dip in Mutagenic Mauler or something also works.
One concept I had was a brawler/barbarian/mutation warrior.
This was incredibly versatile because of martial flexibility, and all the feats to have fun with it. It was designed to be a TWF build with the taiaha but anything works.
I can't promise that it is actually effective, but this is probably the most munchkin multiclass build I made. I mostly made it because having a multiclass ragechemist and wild rager seems funny.
I'm a bit obsessive about making original builds so I pretty much always multiclass. It's not healthy.
Whenever I make a Frankenclass, it's because I want to explore a Prestige class of some sort, or it's because I'm boycotting a class I don't like...
Like why make a Magus when there is already an Eldritch Knight, Dragon Disciple and Arcane Archer class?
On top of that, I like my prestige classes to be built using unexpected components, just because I'm a disagreeable narcissist with delusions of supreme creativity.
Like my Ranger/Sorcerer/Eldritch Knight, who I made just to spite the Magus class, and because I REALLY hate gishes... so I made one.
Oh, I like you.
Hmm, how about fighter (child of war)/ranger/mystic theurge? Hang on, that might actually be effective....
I'm surprised you made this thread named the way you did, considering the thread this one spawned from. The conceit of the last thread was that no matter what, a Cavalier is better than a Fighter, which is a bold claim considering how many options there are. Even the OP ended up making a few Fighters they considered worthy.
To make this claim, you're gonna have to clarify what "better" is, which, like in the last thread, is gonna be hard to prove in every single circumstance across every and any kind of build.
Good luck.
Edit: Reading the thread title and OP, this actually won't be much of a thing to prove, since "multi classing" includes any and every class in the game. In which case, yeah, the C/MD exists. Congratulations, you won!!
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(Wait, wasn't blaphers ignoring this thread? Ah, the siren call cannot be resisted!)
One of the biggest things about multiclassing i've seen is that its usually there because one class gets a secret bypass to combat options.
Truthfully I agree, people dip URogue because the dex to damage options are so restrictive and feat heavy. People dip ranger and slayer because thats how you avoid having to split stats between strength and dex in order to twf. Many classes and archetypes are really frontloaded, getting the best options of the class within a level or 2.
Not sure there's any real solution to that.
Revel in it! Baste yourself with the stuff! Slather your furry little body all over!
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Big List of Cool-Ranch Dips (feel free to append):
* alchemist2 ... Mutagen+Discovery
* barbarian1,2or4 ... aggregate att+3or4 with Reckless Abandon, Rage Powers
* barbarian[urban]1or(more) ... TWF or other DEX build accelerant
* bard[dervish]2 ... Battle Dance, class skills, arcane trigger items
* bloodrager1or2 ... move+10, bloodline power, rage
* brawler1 ... Martial Flexibility, dump INT & still take INT13-required combat feats
* cavalier[any archetype]1or2 (in PFS) ... kosher for Horse Master feat
* cleric(community domain)1 ... Calming Touch negates fatigue
* cleric(crusader)1 ... WF in deity weapon, divine trigger items, domain power
* fighter[1or2,or(WM3)] ... feats (and Weapon Training w/Weapon Master)
* inquisitor[ravener hunter]1 ... better than oracle dip for obtaining a Revelation+Mystery
* monk2 ... flurry, evasion, WIS>AC, ton of useful class skills, etc.
* ninja1or2 ... SA+1d6, katana and wakizashi proficiency, Ninja Tricks (Vanishing Trick, Flurry of Stars, etc), Ki pool
* paladin2 ... Divine Grace (huge saving throw gains in CHA builds), martial proficiencies
* ranger2 ... obtain feat without prerequisites (read: onerous point-buy stat cost)
* rogue2 ... SA+1d6, evasion, Rogue Talent access
* samurai1or2 ... Challenge, Resolve, katana and wakizashi proficiency
* sorcerer1 ... spam Truestrike, bloodline, Arcane Strike-kosher
* vigilante[avenger]1 ... Social Grace(+4 circumstance bonus w/skill)
Bolt ace 5... required for any effective crossbow use.
Slayer 2 ... Same reason as ranger 2
Swashbuckler 1 ... Slew of feats + parry and riposte.
I just don't like multiclassing very much, and I play mostly martials.
Multiclassing is a net loss of power in you main class, even if a policy of power dipping can lead to horrifying builds, but I don't like to think too much about builds either... so you'll forgive me if I've got little to contribute beyond sharing my popcorn.
I just don't like multiclassing very much, and I play mostly martials.Multiclassing is a net loss of power in you main class, even if a policy of power dipping can lead to horrifying builds, but I don't like to think too much about builds either... so you'll forgive me if I've got little to contribute beyond sharing my popcorn.
Its particularly not great if you're a full caster. Martials really don't have a lot to lose dipping though. Their primary combat effectiveness is almost always going to be based on high BAB, and high damage stat + feats. Each class has its exception of course, Advanced weapon/armor training for fighters, rage for barbarians, favored enemy/animal companion, smite damage, sneak attack. taking a level or two longer to reach the next step in one of those abilities is less of a power hit than if it takes you two levels longer to reach 5th level spells for example.
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I don't know how you missed Inspired Blade 1 for dex to damage with rapiers.
As far as I can see, a single level of that archetype doesn't grant DEX-to-damage. It does grant Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus in a rapier, which is a good deal if that's your signature weapon.
(I prefer TWF'ing light weapons in min/max DEX builds; they qualify for Piranha Strike without further complication and can be used when grappled.)
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Martials really don't have a lot to lose dipping though. Their primary combat effectiveness is almost always going to be based on high BAB, and high damage stat + feats. Each class has its exception of course, Advanced weapon/armor training for fighters, rage for barbarians, favored enemy/animal companion, smite damage, sneak attack. taking a level or two longer to reach the next step in one of those abilities is less of a power hit than if it takes you two levels longer to reach 5th level spells for example.
Yup. Multiclassing in martials is all about front-loading -- getting the goodies now because most campaigns peter out long before high level, or even double-digits.
I also prefer flexibility; I have the most fun when I'm always able to do something unexpected and surprise the rest of the players at a mustered PFS table. E.g., the dwarf barbarian with a starting STR of 15 and a positive CHA score bolstering a level of cleric.
depends if you're dipping in full or partial BAB classes... one dip is not much, several dips in 3/4 classes could noticeably impair you.
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For martials skilled multiclassing is gonna blow most single class builds out of the water any day in the PFS Level range. Cherry picking of static bonuses, feats, save modifiers or flurry of blows is totally nuts. Anyone who claims the contrary hasn't run the math.
The worst offenders:
Unchained Monk 1 with a two handed Sansetsukon
Bloodrager 1 with a free Familiar and a free (maneuver) feat at Level 1
Bloodrager with free natural attacks (as of recently tail slap!)
Savage Technologist Barbarian 1
Ninja 2 for Ki-Pool and Feat
Warpriest 2
Oath of Vengance Paladin 4
At higher levels the progression of class abilities might actually catch up to match to cherry picking but I'm not sure if that's a given. You will probably be behind in raw numbers but can compensate a bit via access to higher Level abilities
The two martial classes that will probably be best when single classing are Cavalier and Paladin as their main damage boost is highly level dependent.
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the inspired blade dip gives the pre req for fencing grace to be taken at 1.
I rarely see a mention of a one level dip into Investigator (Sleuth archetype) to pick up a Luck pool (which stacks with Grit/Panache), three highly useful deeds (including Evasion as an immediate action), and trapfinding.
I made a [Bard (Archeologist) 8/Investigator (Sleuth) 4/VMC Magus] for Carrion Crown and was simply amazing, and I started the game at 1st level. That was back before they nerfed Amateur Swashbuckler, but the DM allowed me to retrain as a VMC magus to get back the Parry & Riposte with the Flamboyant Arcana. Amateur Gunslinger, Amateur Swashbuckler, Luck Pool, Arcane Pool, Archeologist's Luck, etc, etc ...
My, I had such fun.
I rarely see a mention of a one level dip into Investigator (Sleuth archetype) to pick up a Luck pool (which stacks with Grit/Panache), three highly useful deeds (including Evasion as an immediate action), and trapfinding.
I made a [Bard (Archeologist) 8/Investigator (Sleuth) 4/VMC Magus] for Carrion Crown and was simply amazing, and I started the game at 1st level. That was back before they nerfed Amateur Swashbuckler, but the DM allowed me to retrain as a VMC magus to get back the Parry & Riposte with the Flamboyant Arcana. Amateur Gunslinger, Amateur Swashbuckler, Luck Pool, Arcane Pool, Archeologist's Luck, etc, etc ...
My, I had such fun.
The luck pool does not stack with panache.
The luck pool does not stack with panache.
I am unaware of a FAQ that says otherwise. Luck pool explicitly calls out that it stacks.
Grit, Luck, and Panache
Grit, luck, and panache represent three different means by which heroes can gain access to the same heroic pool, using it to accomplish fantastic feats. For characters with a mix of grit, luck, and panache, they pool the resources together into a combined pool. (Those who use panache and luck gain twice their Charisma bonus in their pool.) For feats, magic items, and other effects, a panache user can spend and gain luck points in place of grit or panache points, and vice versa.
A luck user does not count as a grit or panache user to satisfy feat prerequisites.
Unless you are referring to my Archeologist luck. I never said it stacked. I was merely listing abilities that I liked about the build. Only the Luck pool from Sleuth stacks with Grit/Panache.
You quoted it wrong
Grit, luck, and panache represent three different means
by which heroes can gain access to the same heroic pool,
using it to accomplish fantastic feats. For characters with a
mix of grit, luck, and panache, they pool the three resources
together into a combined pool. (Those who use panache
and luck do not gain twice their Charisma bonuses in their
pools.) For feats, magic items, and other effects, a panache
user can spend and gain luck points in place of grit points
or panache points, and vice versa.
Change is found in any current PDF and the the errata document for ACG.
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depends if you're dipping in full or partial BAB classes... one dip is not much, several dips in 3/4 classes could noticeably impair you.
Losing BAB is not a big deal if the bonuses one picks up adequately cover for it.
(I once built a PFS barbarian/monk/cleric/ninja AoO-exploiter utilizing Moonlight Stalker with a trippy polearm versus blind opponents.)
You quoted it wrong
Change is found in any current PDF and the the errata document for ACG.Grit, luck, and panache represent three different means
by which heroes can gain access to the same heroic pool,
using it to accomplish fantastic feats. For characters with a
mix of grit, luck, and panache, they pool the three resources
together into a combined pool. (Those who use panache
and luck do not gain twice their Charisma bonuses in their
pools.) For feats, magic items, and other effects, a panache
user can spend and gain luck points in place of grit points
or panache points, and vice versa.
Ain't that a kick in the junk--using up a paragraph to specifically allow something, then taking it right away.
Change is found in any current PDF and the the errata document for ACG.
Well, apparently I don't have either of those things handy. I pulled my quote directly from my copy of the book, which is not the newest obviously. Personally, I disagree with their decision, since I like martials getting nice things, but I can't argue with the print.
Still, it doesn't diminish the fun I had with the character. The Arcane Pool gained from the VMC Magus more than made up for the panache anyway.
You quoted it wrong
Change is found in any current PDF and the the errata document for ACG.Grit, luck, and panache represent three different means
by which heroes can gain access to the same heroic pool,
using it to accomplish fantastic feats. For characters with a
mix of grit, luck, and panache, they pool the three resources
together into a combined pool. (Those who use panache
and luck do not gain twice their Charisma bonuses in their
pools.) For feats, magic items, and other effects, a panache
user can spend and gain luck points in place of grit points
or panache points, and vice versa.
I know you don't work for Paizo and perhaps aren't the ideal person to answer this, but, if you know...
If I were to get a pdf of a product, w/out having it as part of a sub line, and the base product gets updated...will I get notice of an updated pdf? Or is it only those pdfs from sub lines that updated & noticed??
The two martial classes that will probably be best when single classing are Cavalier and Paladin as their main damage boost is highly level dependent.And Samurai -- holy smokes is it good. All those rerolls (drool...).
Well it's technically the cavalier too...
{. . .}
Change is found in any current PDF and the the errata document for ACG.I know you don't work for Paizo and perhaps aren't the ideal person to answer this, but, if you know...
If I were to get a pdf of a product, w/out having it as part of a sub line, and the base product gets updated...will I get notice of an updated pdf? Or is it only those pdfs from sub lines that updated & noticed??
Not a notice, but if you go to your Downloads page every once in a while, you can compare the date you last downloaded the PDF to the date it was last updated (at least, this works for Player's Guides and the We B*Goblins series of modules).
* * * * * * * *
Something missing out of the discussion in this thread: If you want a multiclass mutt, don't we first need the release of a Dogfolk race?
Something missing out of the discussion in this thread: If you want a multiclass mutt, don't we first need the release of a Dogfolk race?
You mean a Witchwolf Skinwalker? Something like a witchwolf unchained monk 2 / unarmed fighter 2 / aberrant bloodrager 4 / brawler 1, aiming for the Wolf Savage feat and a lot of AoOs, would unquestionably be a multiclass mutt.
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Well it's technically the cavalier too...The two martial classes that will probably be best when single classing are Cavalier and Paladin as their main damage boost is highly level dependent.And Samurai -- holy smokes is it good. All those rerolls (drool...).
Who in turn is technically just a paladin who gave up Smite-buddy attack-bonus, saves, and channeling (but kept the groovy bonus damage) in exchange for not having to be good and for his target not to have to be evil.
Samurai is IMO the best martial class in the game if you're playing "straight". You're a motor that won't shut off. Ate a crit? No ya didn't. Die? No ya didn't. Blow that save? Toss 'em again. ...Simply amazing.
Well it's technically the cavalier too...The two martial classes that will probably be best when single classing are Cavalier and Paladin as their main damage boost is highly level dependent.And Samurai -- holy smokes is it good. All those rerolls (drool...).Who in turn is technically just a paladin who gave up Smite-buddy attack-bonus, saves, and channeling (but kept the groovy bonus damage) in exchange for not having to be good and for his target not to have to be evil.
Samurai is IMO the best martial class in the game if you're playing "straight". You're a motor that won't shut off. Ate a crit? No ya didn't. Die? No ya didn't. Blow that save? Toss 'em again. ...Simply amazing.
Nope. Paladin is a specific class. Cavalier is a seperate, specific class. They may have similarities and be functionally the same class (if built the same, such as no bonded weapon) but "technically" is the wrong use of the word.
Now Cavalier and Samurai are technically/basically the same class due to the "opperates exactly" and class exclusive language. You can build a Samurai/Paladin multiclass, but you cannot build a Samurai/Cavalier multiclass as they are technically the same class,
Alternate classes are standalone classes whose basic ideas are very close to established base classes, yet whose required alterations would be too expansive for an archetype. An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa.
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I'm still convinced that the Swashbuckler's greatest contribution to the game is the fact that it's the most dip friendly thing I've ever seen. P&R is practically a capstone and you get it at first level, plus the Inspired Blade option meaning that a martial with all the mental prowess of a spoiled potato can still have as much panache as your average 14 Charisma 'buckler.
Barbarian is also an amazing dip, with Unchained making it very Finesse friendly. Heck, it pretty much salvaged my Vigilante build.
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I'm still convinced that the Swashbuckler's greatest contribution to the game is the fact that it's the most dip friendly thing I've ever seen. P&R is practically a capstone and you get it at first level,Combine it with a monk's Deflect Arrows, and you're pretty much plus the Inspired Blade option meaning that a martial with all the mental prowess of a spoiled potato can still have as much panache as your average 14 Charisma 'buckler.
Inspired Blade benefits from high INT. (What did it look like before Paizo reskinned swash as a "hybrid"...or was it always called that? I never paid attention because I wasn't much into rapiers.)
Inspired Blade benefits from high INT. (What did it look like before Paizo reskinned swash as a "hybrid"...or was it always called that? I never paid attention because I wasn't much into rapiers.)I'm still convinced that the Swashbuckler's greatest contribution to the game is the fact that it's the most dip friendly thing I've ever seen. P&R is practically a capstone and you get it at first level,Combine it with a monk's Deflect Arrows, and you're pretty much plus the Inspired Blade option meaning that a martial with all the mental prowess of a spoiled potato can still have as much panache as your average 14 Charisma 'buckler.
Me neither. If only there was a way to use Inspired Blade's improved Panache pool and still get back Panache points without using a dumb pig sticker...
One build I've been working on lately is a Katana user with no armor. I was playing with swashbuckler/scaled fist monk/Urban barbarian (or bloodrage)and maybe samurai or cavalier. I'm still fiddling with it, but I'm sure there is a way to make a great armorless fighter using several dips to maximise survivability.
You might find Kensal Magus interesting.
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One build I've been working on lately is a Katana user with no armor. I was playing with swashbuckler/scaled fist monk/Urban barbarian (or bloodrage)and maybe samurai or cavalier. I'm still fiddling with it, but I'm sure there is a way to make a great armorless fighter using several dips to maximise survivability.
Katanas are undeniably sexy, but wakizashis are the blades you really want:
STR:07DEX+19 (17,14,12,12,12,07 20pt array)
CON:14
INT:12
WIS:12 (or swap for the 14)
CHA:12 (or swap for the 14)
traits: Accelerated Drinker, Dangerously Curious
01 barb1[urban][Controlled Rage], Two Weapon Fighting, Double Slice
02 ninj1[unchained][SA+1d6][Weapon Finesse]
03 ninj2[ki pool][trick:weapon focus:Wakizashi], Extra Ki
04 ninj3[SA+2d6][Finesse Training:Wakizashi], DEX>20
05 figh1[Weapon Master], Piranha Strike, (buy DEX belt)
...the only armor you'll ever wear is UMD'd Mage Armor. (Maybe quilted cloth just to deal with ambush arrows.)
06 figh2[weapon guard]
07 figh3[Weapon Training+1:wakizashi], Improved Two Weapon Fighting, (buy Gloves of Dueling)
...The initial chassis is now complete: we enjoy two attacks at 1st level and three at 3rd (several times a day), up to four at 7th. DEX>damage is on-line at 4th, with Weapon Training/gloves grooviness at 7th.
So what to do at 8th is now the question. Continuing in Ninja is an obvious option. If it were PFS, we'd take cavalier because all cavaliers 4th & up in that campaign qualify for Horse Master (granting us a full druid-level mount at 11th with feat drop). However, the following is most appealing:
08 samu1 [order][challenge:1/day], DEX>21
09 samu2 [resolve], Improved Critical:Wakizashi
10 samu3 [Weapon Expertise]
11 samu4 [challenge:2/day][Weapon Training+2], Weapon Specialization:wakisahi
12 figh4 [Greater Weapon Focus:wakizashi], DEX>22
13 samu5 [banner], Greater Weapon Specialization:wakisashi
14 samu6 ...etc.
-- With Weapon Expertise, Samurai levels now count as and stack with the build's fighter[weapon master] levels for purposes of incrementing Weapon Training bonuses as well as qualifying for Weapon Specialization, GWF, and GWS. Samurai order and resolve abilities also grant a lot of rerolls so we can nonscrew/unscrew ourselves much better/faster than most other martials.
~ ~ ~
We're a one-trick pony, but a very good one since we can start combat holding a potion and a Tanglefoot bag, then quickdraw our wakizashis as a class feature. Best of all, our weapons can be used in grapples (read: when swallowed-whole).
Wakizashi damage at 13th is going to be: d6 +10(DEX30ish) +3+1d6(+1/Furious/element) +4(GWS) +8(Piranha) +5(WT+gloves) +5(Challenge'd) = ~42 or thereabouts per swat before any additional buffing or other equipment. Up to *eight* Hasted/Ki attacks also mean potentially 16d6 worth of Sneak Attack dice are awaiting opportube moment. We're over 90% to threat a crit during a full attack, with DPR versus appropriate CR AC closing on 300 if not already exceeding.
Suffice to say that anything near us just explodes into pink mist.
Whoa, ninjas got an unchained variant?
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Whoa, ninjas got an unchained variant?
<squint more carefully at d20pfsrd> ...Ah, poop. It's an Everyman Gaming 3rd party class, although one might suspect Paizo has something similar forthcoming. Otherwise, unchained rogue is PFS-kosher. (Ki Pool is pantsloads more fun than Evasion, but the latter will probably save our life at least once, if not several times over the course of playing the character all the way from first level.)
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Can we talk about how Commoners are just straight better than everything else. There are literally thousands of them lurking in the shadows of the world, tending the fields, running shops and generally going unnoticed as they slowly unite their numbers until they attack. There could be enough commoners in the world to operate every catapult ever made, and while they may not be accurate they will hit eventually. I tell you, as a certified card-carrying holiday cultist there is a dark conspiracy at work here.
Whoa, ninjas got an unchained variant?<squint more carefully at d20pfsrd> ...Ah, poop. It's an Everyman Gaming 3rd party class, although one might suspect Paizo has something similar forthcoming. Otherwise, unchained rogue is PFS-kosher. (Ki Pool is pantsloads more fun than Evasion, but the latter will probably save our life at least once, if not several times over the course of playing the character all the way from first level.)
Outside of PFS, it probably isn't unreasonable to take everything unchained adds to the rogue and stick it on the ninja.