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Power Attack: If I am using a two-handed weapon with one hand (such as a lance while mounted), do still I get the +50% damage for using a two-handed weapon?
Yes.
Weapons, Two-Handed in One Hand: When a feat or other special ability says to treat a weapon that is normally wielded in two hands as a one handed weapon, does it get treated as one or two handed weapon for the purposes of how to apply the Strength modifier or the Power Attack feat?
If you're wielding it in one hand (even if it is normally a two-handed weapon), treat it as a one-handed weapon for the purpose of how much Strength to apply, the Power Attack damage bonus, and so on.
They quite directly contradict each other on the matter of Power Attack, so obviously they can't be both true.
Which one is correct?
What about str bonuses in both cases?
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Weapons, Two-Handed in One Hand: When a feat or other special ability says to treat a weapon that is normally wielded in two hands as a one handed weapon, does it get treated as one or two handed weapon for the purposes of how to apply the Strength modifier or the Power Attack feat?
If you're wielding it in one hand (even if it is normally a two-handed weapon), treat it as a one-handed weapon for the purpose of how much Strength to apply, the Power Attack damage bonus, and so on.
It's explained right there in the FAQ. If the ability you use to wield it one-handed says to treat it as a one-handed weapon, you treat it as a one-handed weapon and get 1.0x Str.
The lance does not include that language.
While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand.
A lance is a two-handed weapon you can wield in one hand while mounted. It is not a two-handed weapon you treat as a one-handed weapon.
A lance is a two-handed weapon you can wield in one hand while mounted. It is not a two-handed weapon you treat as a one-handed weapon.
That power attack ruling wouldn't apply to the strength bonus since the text is different. Power Attack states you get the 1.5x damage multiplier when making an attack with a two-handed weapon, while the section in the combat rules states you get the 1.5x multiplier from strength when making an attack while wielding a weapon in two hands. If you're going to make the highly technical distinction between wielding a weapon in two hands and wielding a two-handed weapon, strength and power attack would be adjudicated differently in this case.
A refers to a two handed weapon wielded in one hand.
B refers to an ability treating a 2 handed weapon as a 1 handed weapon.
No contradiction, although the distinction is subtle it is meaningful.
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A lance is a two-handed weapon you can wield in one hand while mounted. It is not a two-handed weapon you treat as a one-handed weapon.That power attack ruling wouldn't apply to the strength bonus since the text is different. Power Attack states you get the 1.5x damage multiplier when making an attack with a two-handed weapon, while the section in the combat rules states you get the 1.5x multiplier from strength when making an attack while wielding a weapon in two hands. If you're going to make the highly technical distinction between wielding a weapon in two hands and wielding a two-handed weapon, strength and power attack would be adjudicated differently in this case.
Actually, doing 1.5x Strength damage is an effect of the weapon being 2H, not of wielding it in 2H. (The need to wield it in 2H is also an effect of it being a 2H weapon):
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.
This is different from 1H weapons:
One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.
So since the Lance never becomes treated as an 1H weapon despite being used in one hand, it still deals 1.5x strength damage.
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Actually, doing 1.5x Strength damage is an effect of the weapon being 2H, not of wielding it in 2H. (The need to wield it in 2H is also an effect of it being a 2H weapon)
So the rules text is inconsistent then, because the combat rules uses a different text than the equipment rules:
Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands.
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@Dasrak: it's not elegant, but shy of an outright contradiction. More like an imprecise summary.
The Equipment chapter lays out base rules for each separate weapon type; the combat chapter gives the summary that's correct in 99% of all cases of all weapons.
The lance is just about the only 2H weapon I can think of that doesn't have a "if you wield it in one hand, treat it as 1H weapon" text.
I see no reason to hold either the combat rules or the equipment rules above each other. Both are equally authoritative, and a contradiction between them is problematic. To avoid the contradiction you could take a non-technical reading that "wielding a weapon in two hands" is meant to be equivalent to "wielding a two-handed weapon", but that goes against the FAQ since it would mean that if a lance is wielded in one hand it is not being used as two-handed weapon.
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I see no reason to hold either the combat rules or the equipment rules above each other. Both are equally authoritative, and a contradiction between them is problematic. To avoid the contradiction you could take a non-technical reading that "wielding a weapon in two hands" is meant to be equivalent to "wielding a two-handed weapon", but that goes against the FAQ since it would mean that if a lance is wielded in one hand it is not being used as two-handed weapon.
Read the FAQ again, because that is not what it says. It uses specific language. At no point is a lance treated as a one-handed weapon.
Read the FAQ again, because that is not what it says. It uses specific language. At no point is a lance treated as a one-handed weapon.
If we accept that "wielding a weapon in two hands" is equivalent in meaning to "wielding a two-handed weapon", then it also follows that "wielding a weapon in one hand" is equivalent in meaning to "wielding a one-handed weapon". Thus a lance, if wielded in one hand, would be treated as a one-handed weapon. This conclusion is in contradiction with the FAQ.
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If we accept that "wielding a weapon in two hands" is equivalent in meaning to "wielding a two-handed weapon"
But it's not. I can hold any sword with two hands, but that doesn't automatically turn it into a two-handed weapon.
Your logic fails because your assumption isn't accurate
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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There is no contradiction.
A two handed weapon is two hand damage.
A one handed weapon is one hand damage or two of wielded in two hands.
Abilities either say “use as a one handed weapon” or they say “use in one hand” those two terms are not identical. The first changes it to a one handed weapon. The second retains two handed weapon status.
But it's not. I can hold any sword with two hands, but that doesn't automatically turn it into a two-handed weapon.
Then you're stuck with the contradiction between the combat and equipment chapters. If you follow how this tangent started, I was commenting that a less technical reading of the section could avoid the contradiction between the way the rules are phrased (since they're pretty close, and you can wield one-handed weapons in two hands and gain all the benefits two-handed weapons normally gain, so intuitively it makes sense). However, such a non-technical reading leads to the conclusion that the FAQ is wrong.
You absolutely can take the more technical reading, but if you do so the slight difference in the phrasing of the two sections becomes a problem since it leads to a different result. This means you need to pick which section of the book takes precedence, and you get a different outcome based on which you pick.
So take your pick, both approaches have their problems. The technical reading has a contradiction and you have to pick which section of the book you want to take priority on, while the non-technical reading is in direct contradiction to the FAQ.
So a technical reading backs up the FAQ.
A "non-technical" reading (whatever that means) contradicts the FAQ.
Why create a contradiction by using a "non-technical" interpretation?
Obviously, any GM can use whatever rules they want to use and interpret them however they like. But to then complain that the staff interpretation of the rules is "technical" and agrees with the FAQ seems strange.
So a technical reading backs up the FAQ.
A "non-technical" reading (whatever that means) contradicts the FAQ.
Why create a contradiction by using a "non-technical" interpretation?
Because a technical reading of chapter 5 of the core rulebook and chapter 8 of the core rulebook results in two contradictory answers. The rules text in chapter 5 indicates that a two-handed weapon always gets 1-1/2 times strength, and there is no exception for a two-handed weapon that is wielded in one hand so the one-handed lance would still get that. The text in chapter 8 indicates that you only get 1-1/2 times strength when you're wielding a weapon in two hands, so a one-handed lance would only get regular strength damage. This is contradictory, and you get a different answer depending on which chapter you're reading. Either ruling would be technically correct (which is why I call it a technical reading) but it's not actually that helpful since depending on which chapter you prefer you can get either result.
The alternative approach that I suggested is taking the view that the rules in chapter 5 and chapter 8 are meant to be equivalent, and we're being overly technical by analyzing the subtle differences in how they are phrased. If we presume (yes, it's a presumption) that the two rules sections are meant to be equivalent and that there is no contradiction, then we must conclude that "wielding a two-handed weapon" and "wielding a weapon in two hands" are supposed to be equivalent statements rules-wise. If this is true, then "wielding a one-handed weapon" and "wielding a weapon in one hand" are also equivalent statements. This directly contradicts the FAQ.
The point is that if you presume there is no contradiction, you get a contradiction with the FAQ. Therefor there is necessarily a rules contradiction, either between chapter 5 and chapter 8 of the core rulebook or with the FAQ.
Put another way, this needs to be FAQ'd if you want a definitive answer.
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Put another way, this needs to be FAQ'd if you want a definitive answer.
It was already FAQed. Twice.
The text in chapter 8 indicates that you only get 1-1/2 times strength when you're wielding a weapon in two hands, so a one-handed lance would only get regular strength damage.
The text from chapter 8 does not use the word 'only' and should not be read as exclusive.
Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands.
^^Says nothing about wielding a weapon one-handed.
It was already FAQed. Twice.
Yup, and there's still stuff left unanswered
The text from chapter 8 does not use the word 'only' and should not be read as exclusive.
Of course it should be read as exclusive. This is very obvious if you look at the preceding paragraphs which you conveniently didn't include
Strength Bonus: When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on damage rolls made with a bow that is not a composite bow.
Off-Hand Weapon: When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus. If you have a Strength penalty, the entire penalty applies.
Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands.
The first paragraph establishes that the default rule for strength bonus to damage on melee and thrown weapons, and the following paragraphs establish exceptions to that rule. So yes, the third paragraph on wielding weapons two-handed should be read exclusively. It is an exception to the default rule. Since it doesn't say anything about two-handed weapons that are wielded in one hand, it doesn't apply to them.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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In 1e and 2e, there was much the GM had to answer with about 300 pages of rules.
Something about 600 pages of rules makes us need the rules to answer everything, have no possible contradictions (regardless whether or not they actually contradict), have no unneeded reminder text of rules, and other things.
The rules are not designed to answer every question, just many. These two FAQ don't contradict. This has been brought up hundreds of times. They have corrected actual contradictions. They have not changed these FAQ.
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It's explained right there in the FAQ. If the ability you use to wield it one-handed says to treat it as a one-handed weapon, you treat it as a one-handed weapon and get 1.0x Str.
The lance does not include that language.
While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand.A lance is a two-handed weapon you can wield in one hand while mounted. It is not a two-handed weapon you treat as a one-handed weapon.
A refers to a two handed weapon wielded in one hand.
B refers to an ability treating a 2 handed weapon as a 1 handed weapon.No contradiction, although the distinction is subtle it is meaningful.
I'm really struggling to understand the logic here. I noticed you bolded the "Treat" part, but also seemed to ignore the "When a feat or other special ability says" part. Anything that is allowing you to use a Two-Handed Weapon in One Hand is treating that weapon as a One-Handed Weapon by definition.
A Lance, an item specifically named in FAQ A, is a two-handed weapon that a as a special ability of the weapon can be used in one hand, despite still being a two-handed weapon.
According to FAQ A, a mounted character would get the extra Str and Power Attack bonus still. But, according to FAQ B, they would not.
Or are you suggesting that the Lance is either not a two-handed weapon or is not treated a one handed weapon?
The category of what type of weapon something is a description of how it can be used, normally. A two-handed weapon requires two hands to use at minimum. A One-Handed Weapon can be used in either hand, or both. So you could for instance wield two One-Handed Weapons at the same time, but could not wield two two-handed weapons at the same time unless you have four arms.
So, in what category do would a weapon that could be wielded in one hand only be? Light or One-Handed, right.
Something to also keep in mind is that a weapons "Handedness" is not specific to the weapon, but rather is a reference to how the character wielding it treats it.
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
There is no difference between if a weapon "is" a One-handed weapon or "is treated as" a One-Handed weapon, because that's exactly what the meaning of a One-handed weapon is, how it is treated for the individual wielding it.
This, however, leads to further FAQs being issues,
Bastard Sword: Is this a one-handed weapon or a two-handed weapon?A bastard sword is a one-handed weapon (although for some rules it blurs the line between a one-handed and a two-handed weapon).
The physical properties of a bastard sword are that of a one-handed weapon. For example, its hardness, hit points, ability to be crafted out of special materials, category for using the Craft skill, effect of alchemical silver, and so on, are all that of a one-handed weapon.
For class abilities, feats, and other rule elements that vary based on or specifically depend on wielding a one-handed weapon, a two-handed weapon, or a one-handed weapon with two hands, the bastard sword counts as however many hands you are using to wield it.
For example, if you are wielding it one-handed (which normally requires the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat), it is treated as a one-handed weapon; Power Attack only gets the one-handed bonus, you cannot use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.
If you are wielding it with two hands (whether or not you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield it with one hand), it is treated as a two-handed weapon; Power Attack gets the increased damage bonus, you can use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.
An unusual case of the handedness rule is an ability that allows you to treat a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. For example, the titan mauler's jotungrip (which allows you to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand) allows you to wield a bastard sword in one hand even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and (as the ability states) treats it as a one-handed weapon, therefore it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects.
Want to have even more fun? What happens when a mounted Phalanx Soldier or Titan Mauler uses a Lance in One Hand? Still no contradictions?
:P
Anything that is allowing you to use a Two-Handed Weapon in One Hand is treating that weapon as a One-Handed Weapon by definition.
I disagree.
I find the terminology 'One-Handed Weapon' and 'Two-Handed Weapon' to be misleading.
It's clearer if I replace them mentally with 'Medium Weapon' and 'Heavy Weapon'.
Light Weapons and Medium Weapons can normally be used one- or two-handed, but Medium Weapons (unlike Light Weapons) give you bonus damage when used on two hands. Heavy Weapons can normally only be used two-handed, and give you the bonus damage.
An ability that allows you to use a Heavy Weapon in one hand is not treating it as a Medium Weapon 'by definition', any more than it is treating it as a Light Weapon, which can also be used in one hand. Abilities that apply only to Heavy Weapons would still apply, and abilities that apply only to Medium Weapons would not, unless specifically stated.
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I'm really struggling to understand the logic here. I noticed you bolded the "Treat" part, but also seemed to ignore the "When a feat or other special ability says" part. Anything that is allowing you to use a Two-Handed Weapon in One Hand is treating that weapon as a One-Handed Weapon by definition.
No, it's not. That's not part of any official definition.
And this is precisely the detail that the lance relies upon: the mounted lance is intended to deal damage as a 2H weapon with all the frills, even though you're only holding it in one hand. The developers made that work by having the lance not tell you to treat it as 1H weapon while using it one-handed.
That's why the FAQ requires that "When a feat or other special ability says to treat a weapon that is normally wielded in two hands as a one handed weapon" - because the lance is the exceptional case where they want a weapon wielded in one hand to continue functioning as 2H. So the lance does not say to treat it as 1H. And so it continues to function as 2H even though it's held in only one hand.
If they wanted any 2H weapon wielded in a single hand to function as 1H, they could have used much more simple language in the FAQ. They could have said "if you're using a 2H weapon in one hand, it functions as an 1H weapon in all ways".
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I do think it's awkward writing, because as far as I know the lance is the only 2H weapon you can wield in 1H and not treat as 1H weapon. It would have saved a lot of confusion to just put a note in the lance entry that it doesn't become 1H from being used in a single hand. Instead of writing everything else (bastard sword, estoc, katana, dorn-dergar master etc.) to specifically call out that it's 1H when wielded in 1H.
But, changing the CRB is hard because they don't want page number references from other books to change.
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Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.
Light: A light weapon is used in one hand. It is easier to use in one's off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and can be used while grappling (see Combat). Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half the wielder's Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.
One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.
Does a Medium Sized character wielding a Medium Sized Lance:
A.) Require two hands to use?or
B.) Allow for one or two-handed use as desired?
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There is no contradiction.
A two handed weapon is two hand damage.
A one handed weapon is one hand damage or two of wielded in two hands.Abilities either say “use as a one handed weapon” or they say “use in one hand” those two terms are not identical. The first changes it to a one handed weapon. The second retains two handed weapon status.
The Devs have stated that the rules are to be read conversationally. This is splitting hairs and is not how the rules are intended to be read. The so called Lance FAQ clearly contradicts the other FAQ.
Even Devs have found them contradictory going back to when they were published. However, it is my understanding that the Devs cannot make any FAQ changes without us hitting the FAQ button enough to prompt a response.
So, yes, they are contradictory and will remain so until there are enough FAQ hits to prompt resolution.
P.S. This exact issue was also FAQ'd in 3.5 and the FAQ then was not contradictory, it came down firmly on the side of 'strength and power attack bonuses are determined by the number of hands on the weapon and not by the original classification of the weapon'.
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Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.
Light: A light weapon is used in one hand. It is easier to use in one's off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and can be used while grappling (see Combat). Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half the wielder's Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.
One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.
Does a Medium Sized character wielding a Medium Sized Lance:
A.) Require two hands to use?
or
B.) Allow for one or two-handed use as desired?
A lance is a 2H weapon because it's in the 2H section of the weapons table.
Because it's a 2H weapon, it does 1.5x strength damage.
Because it's a 2H weapon, it needs two hands to use. Except:
Lance: A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount. While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand.
It's there in black-and-parchment-y.
While mounted you need only one hand. It's still a 2H weapon, because as the FAQ points out, you only treat it as 1H if it actually says that you treat it as 1H. And the lance doesn't.
So since it's still a 2H weapon, it still does 1.5x Strength. And since it's still a 2H weapon, it also deals the 1.5x Power Attack, just as the FAQ says.
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It's all perfectly consistent. Where you appear to get lost is in the direction in which you read the 2H weapon definition.
A weapon isn't 2H because you need two hands; it needs two hands because it's a 2H weapon. The weapon is 2H simply because the developers put it in the table in the 2H section.
If the number of hands required changes, the weapon doesn't change sections from 2H to 1H. However, every other 2H weapon that has a way to wield it in one hand has text saying that you then treat it as 1H.
But the lance doesn't. It stays 2H.
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Wielding a lance while mounted is a special exception to the more general rule regarding using two-handed weapon as one-handed weapons. Easy.
That is not how the 'lance FAQ' is written. It is written providing an example, not that the Lance was the only weapon it applied to.
The fact that the later FAQ invalidated any other weapon should not be taken as an indication that the 'lance FAQ' is providing an exception.
The Lance FAQ was written first, the strength/power attack FAQ was written second.
Even if you followed BOTH FAQs, the Lance then gets into the odd place where it uses +50% for power attack and x1 for strength. That is clearly not the intent and is bad design.
So, either they need to remove the contradiction, or they need to specify that the Lance also gets x1.5 strength when used 1 handed. Either way a FAQ is needed to fix this.
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Even Devs have found them contradictory going back to when they were published. However, it is my understanding that the Devs cannot make any FAQ changes without us hitting the FAQ button enough to prompt a response.
I need posts confirming that, as I've seen the exact opposite. I've seen dev posts saying there is no contradicting FAQ and I've seen posts saying they attempt to address any conflicting FAQ when reported. They have in fact changed a number of conflicting FAQ in the past.
This isn't a new suggestion (that these FAQ conflict), and it hasn't been addressed. So either they are not conflicting, or the devs some how missed a bunch of previous threads about this subject.
That is not how the 'lance FAQ' is written.
Actually I think it is, can you give me another example of "wield in one hand" in the rules? Not "wield as a one-handed weapon" and not "treat as a one-handed weapon"?
The lance is a two handed where one hand is yours and the "other" hand is the horse's shoulder.
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Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.
Light: A light weapon is used in one hand. It is easier to use in one's off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and can be used while grappling (see Combat). Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half the wielder's Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.
One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.
Does a Medium Sized character wielding a Medium Sized Lance:
A.) Require two hands to use?
or
B.) Allow for one or two-handed use as desired?
A lance is a 2H weapon because it's in the 2H section of the weapons table.
Because it's a 2H weapon, it does 1.5x strength damage.
Because it's a 2H weapon, it needs two hands to use. Except:
Lance: A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount. While mounted, you...
Except the Strength/Power Attack FAQ explicitly states that 2handed weapons used in 1 hand only get 1handed strength/power attack damage.
Only the existence of the 'lance FAQ' contradicts this and it only contradicts it for Power Attack, not strength.
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Except the Strength/Power Attack FAQ explicitly states that 2handed weapons used in 1 hand only get 1handed strength/power attack damage.No. The Strength/Power Attack FAQ explicitly applies to weapons that "say to treat a weapon that is normally wielded in two hands as a one handed weapon".
That is the same thing according to the Devs statements on conversational rules.
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That is the same thing according to the Devs statements on conversational rules.Except the Strength/Power Attack FAQ explicitly states that 2handed weapons used in 1 hand only get 1handed strength/power attack damage.No. The Strength/Power Attack FAQ explicitly applies to weapons that "say to treat a weapon that is normally wielded in two hands as a one handed weapon".
Rules are written conversationally. FAQs are not necessarily.
FAQs by their nature deal with small distinctions and can be read with those in mind.
Wield in one hand != treat as a one handed weapon.
As long as you understand this, you can realize the power attack FAQ doesn't apply to the lance and there is no contradiction.
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Yes, I understand your point of view, that doesn't make it the correct one and even the Devs have stated that they appear to contradict each other.
We need FAQ hits so that this can be put to bed once and for all. It keeps appearing over and over.
Frankly, I don't understand why the 'pro 2handed strength while 1handing lance' group would not want a FAQ on this if only to stop arguing it repeatedly.
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Yes, I understand your point of view, that doesn't make it the correct one and even the Devs have stated that they appear to contradict each other.
Did we ever get a link on this?
Frankly, I don't understand why the 'pro 2handed strength while 1handing lance' group would not want a FAQ on this if only to stop arguing it repeatedly.
We already have all the FAQ we need and there are more pressing questions that could use answers? The Bardic Masterpiece people have been waiting a long time. I don't want to delay that answer any more than necessary.
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I am not digging back 4 years, but yes..it was stated 4 years ago. Believe me or not, I don't care, but this issue keeps coming up and the 'splitting hairs' camp keeps shouting down the 'this appears contradictory' camp.
You shouldn't need a PhD in game theory to understand the difference between the two FAQs, if there is one at all.
This causes enough confusion it deserves to be resolved.
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I agree that it does appear contradictory on the surface, it is annoying and probably could use clarification since the lance is the only known exception to the Power Attack FAQ.
With greater understanding of the game and issue that it has (like people getting confused about making attacks and the distinction of the attack action which only allows a single attack) it can be understood how things function.
But I do certainly agree that poor wording has caused this topic to come up again and again, and it's getting annoyingly old.
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Gauss, the FAQs are not contradictory, but they rely on very sharp language to work out. It's definitely something that could be done much more clearly. So for "usability" the problem is totally real.
The amount of controversy this generates is proof that it's not plain common sense writing.
But on technical grounds, the language as it is right now does what it's supposed to do. The lance is 2H at all times and does 1.5x Strength and 1.5x Power Attack at all times. It only goes wrong if you try to read it more conversationally than it's written - those FAQs look nothing like easy-flowing conversational text. The contradiction only appears if you try to read it more loosely than it's written, at which point you're the one making the problem.
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change the lance one to be like, "no if it's in one hand it's one hand. Though the lance is an exception and is always considered two handed while mounted."
now the two faqs sync up, and the lance stays special.
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I think the intent is clear, but the wording is not. I am going to press the button so they hopefully rewrite it. At least it will make this issue go away if they do it.
So, the 'there is no contradiction' camp should be FAQing it just to clean up the language or end the problem for people who don't have a PhD.
Answer me this, why should we accept such a confusing pair of FAQs when in 3.5 the same topic was FAQ'd and there was no contradiction?
The relevant wording for the Lance hasn't changed since 3.5 and it was spelled out in the 3.5 FAQ that the Lance is treated as a 1handed weapon when used as such.
While Pathfinder is it's own game, it should not be making things more confusing than its predecessor. If it wants the Lance to be different, it should say that clearly.
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So, the 'there is no contradiction' camp should be FAQing it just to clean up the language or end the problem for people who don't have a PhD.Given that Paizo issues FAQs on only a limited basis, asking them to FAQ something that I don't think needs an FAQ is pretty contrary to my interests, so that's nonsense. It'd literally be asking Paizo to waste time writing nothing of value purely to satisfy someone else's pedantry.
So... why am I supposed to want that?
First, how about not being insulting? This has been a relatively civil discussion.
Second, when this issue comes up time after time and people on both sides state that it is written badly, then it is in need of clarification.
Personally, I don't need this or ANY FAQ for my own benefit. I don't play PFS and even if I did..I would love doing extra damage with a Lance. I have no dog in this fight and yet there is clearly a language issue here.
So why FAQ it? Because it needs cleaning up. If we ignored every instance of things that needed cleaning up the system would never be improved.
Sure, other FAQs may need to be addressed sooner...so what? That is not relevant. Either an issue needs to be addressed or it does not.
Frankly, I don't care if Lances are treated as 1handed or 2handed but the earlier FAQ was clearly not written to only include Lances but that is what it is relegated to when the second FAQ was published only a few months later.
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So why FAQ it? Because it needs cleaning up. If we ignored every instance of things that needed cleaning up the system would never be improved.
If we re-litigate every single FAQ every time someone misreads them, we'll never move on to improving the system where it needs it.
If people have questions about how the FAQs work together, there are plenty of people who can explain the reasoning behind it.