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Yes. It's why it's always a good idea to carry a backup club.
Or to get your sword made out of voidglass.
Rust Monsters aren't really monsters, they're more like "traps with legs that you fight."
No, it doesn't.
The rules text only mentions the touch of the antennae.
Rust (Su) A rust monster’s antennae are a primary touch attack that causes any metal object they touch to swiftly rust and corrode. The object
touched takes half its maximum hp in damage and gains the broken condition—a second hit destroys the item. A rust monster never provokes
attacks of opportunity by attempting to strike a weapon with its antennae.
Against creatures made of metal, a rust monster’s antennae deal 3d6+5 points of damage. An attended object, any magic object, or a metal creature can attempt a DC 15 Reflex save to negate this effect. The
save DC is Constitution-based.
There is nothing in there about any sort of passive "whenever you hit" ability.
Funny, I had just run my players through a fight with some (with some more to follow as they have occupied a strategic iron mine). As written, only their antennae attack would damage the sword, not attacking them with it. You'd end up with endless rolls if every attack (from the party and the monsters) required a save.
The Rust ability changed between 3.5 D&D and Pathfinder.
Rust (Ex)
A rust monster that makes a successful touch attack with its antennae causes the target metal to corrode, falling to pieces and becoming useless immediately. The touch can destroy up to a 10-foot cube of metal instantly. Magic armor and weapons, and other magic items made of metal, must succeed on a DC 17 Reflex save or be dissolved. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +4 racial bonus.
A metal weapon that deals damage to a rust monster corrodes immediately. Wooden, stone, and other nonmetallic weapons are unaffected.
The Pathfinder ability makes no mention of that (as GreyYeti posted), though the description of the monster still indicates it.
Just keep your sword in its scabbard and bludgeon it to death.
The antennae are a special attack. Just hitting the creature does not provoke the antennae. Jeraa would be correct. Swing away, but keep your sword high when it is the Rust Monster's turn.
Yes, striking the creature with a metal weapon (or any metal object) causes rusting.
Any metal touched by the rust monster's delicate antennae or armored hide corrodes and falls to dust within seconds, ...The description of the monster clearly says anything touched by the antennae or the hide. You can say that they specifically removed it from the monster's description because they wanted to change it, but if that was really the case... they would have actually removed it from the creature's description.
Also:
Those who frequent areas infested with rust monsters quickly learn to keep a few stone or wooden weapons close at hand.This pretty strongly implies that creatures dealing with rust monsters have to worry about their weapons rusting. If that line was just intended to mean 'because the rust monsters target their weapons,' that wouldn't make sense, because rust monsters target all metal. The line doesn't say 'Those who frequent areas infested with rust monsters quickly learn to keep a few stone or wooden weapons and leather or hide armor and gems instead of coins close at hand.
Most likely, they removed the line from the Rust ability description because it wasn't necessary, since the very nature of the creature is that it rusts things that touch its antennae and hide (which is exactly what it says) so there's no need to have it written in multiple places.
I agree, I can't remember where or when did I read it but it was some kind of "In case of doubt Universal Monster Rules don't supersede specific monster entries".
Also this kind of monster should be well known in the area, so a propper Knowledge check would help the party to prepare accordinly.
The hide thing is in the flavor text, not the rules. When there's a conflict you have to follow the rules, which are spelled out in the special ability and only reference antennae attacks.
I don't have the manual at hand so you must be rigth about the text.
But we still have the same problem that Pizza Lord said.
Basically because the line about the hide was left outside the special attack entry and no special deffense entry was made, the flavour text about the hide corroding the metal with its touch has no combat significance at all, which it's weird. Legally correct, but weird nonetheless.
In other editions it was stated that when the monster was striked (damaged or not) the weapon suffers the effect of the corrosion. I know, this is PF , not other editions, but to me it seems more like a text errata.
What happened is they updated the rust monster's abilities by didn't update the description.
It's not the only place such has happened with Pathfinder.
Rust monsters don't damage weapons when they are struck by them, only when they use their antennae attack.
You sure do seem to like insulting people and then saying you are not.
Either way, the ability does not give any stats for the hide, only the antennae. You are free to run it in your game to make it where the antennae apply to the hide, but that is houserules as nowhere in the statblock does it give rules for the hide.
Is this a place where a 3.5 hangover has occurred? Yes, and there are plenty of them. I'll stick to just not using them like normal because I don't quite like torturing my players, but should you want to make the torture extra juicy, making them need 2+ Reflex saves a round (Once when it hits you and another when you hit it) is your go to.
Personally, I feel that this better balances the creature and at least gives you a chance to walk away with more than your britches and that stone you found in the cave. And yes there are indeed times where the thematic aspects don't meet up with the mechanics.
But hey, I might be the rare GM that cares for my players fun.
What happened is they updated the rust monster's abilities by didn't update the description.You know this for a fact or you are assuming?
Well, if you look at 3.5 rust monster entry it says:
Rust (Ex)
A rust monster that makes a successful touch attack with its antennae causes the target metal to corrode, falling to pieces and becoming useless immediately. The touch can destroy up to a 10-foot cube of metal instantly. Magic armor and weapons, and other magic items made of metal, must succeed on a DC 17 Reflex save or be dissolved. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +4 racial bonus.
A metal weapon that deals damage to a rust monster corrodes immediately. Wooden, stone, and other nonmetallic weapons are unaffected.
The Pathfinder rust monster entry says:
Rust (Su)
A rust monster‘s antennae are a primary touch attack that causes any metal object they touch to swiftly rust and corrode. The object touched takes half its maximum hp in damage and gains the broken condition—a second hit destroys the item. A rust monster never provokes attacks of opportunity by attempting to strike a weapon with its antennae. Against creatures made of metal, a rust monster‘s antennae deal 3d6+5 points of damage. An attended object, any magic object, or a metal creature can attempt a DC 15 Reflex save to negate this effect. The save DC is Constitution-based.
They've obviously and deliberately changed the mechanics of how it worked, including removing the part about how weapons striking the rust monster corrode immediately.
So yes.
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You can claim the statement that metal rusts when touching the antennae and hide is an error, but none of the evidence or actions over 15 years support that. It is not hard to fix one word in 15 years.
It has not been 15 years since Pathfinder changed the rules. We can very easily say that the leftover description is in error by comparing the 3.5 text to the PF text, as shown above.
If a Rust Monster's hide caused metal to rust when struck then that would be in it's special abilities, not in its fluff text.
This is clearly a fluff text error.
Rust Monsters only cause rusting when making attacks with their antennae.
Pizza Lord, it has been shown that they made changes to the Rust Monster in the move from 3.5 to PF that removed the defensive element of rusting from the Rust Monster.
The fact that the description still bears elements of the older version of the Rust Monster is not relevant. There are any number of archaic elements in Pathfinder which are holdovers. Some of them are in the fluff, some are in the rules.
This is one in the fluff and thus is barely worth notice let alone a FAQ.
Paizo has plenty of other errors in their work that they are slow to fix, the fact that this is in there is not surprising.
To summarize: it is not in the rules, it is in the description. If it were in the rules then you would have something. But, feel free to run your game how you want to. Feel free to ignore the rules.
Having actually read Pizza Lord's arguments (some of PL's critics obviously haven't), I find them convincing.
Ok, so lets do it this way.
We know the following:
1) Back in 3.5 the rules stated that a metal weapon striking the Rust Monster rusted.
2) In Pathfinder there is no corresponding rule.
3) In Pathfinder the description, which was not present in 3.5, includes a descriptive non-rule blurb about a metal weapon striking the Rust Monster rusting the weapon.
So, we could go by the rules, or by the non-rule blurb knowing that Pathfinder had many iterations from Alpha to publication and knowing that not all of the little descriptive blurb errors got caught (do we remember the APG Druid Eagle Shaman problem?).
Until they FAQ the descriptive blurb into the rules (like they did with the Druid Eagle Shaman) the rules are clear. You can feel free to houserule it of course. :)
Oh, PS, there were folks who noticed, back in Alpha, that the Rust Monster had been nerfed.
I'd like to take this moment to note I realize writing anything down here is a waste of time. Let's begin.
The Rust Lord specifically mentions having this ability to corrode metal weapons that touch it, destroying them instantly. It is the stat block, it exists as descriptor and as game mechanic.
Taking that knowledge, we know the ability does in fact exist in pathfinder. Since it doesn't exist on Rust Monster, we must assume that it was not put there on purpose, since the ability does in fact exist in pathfinder, did exist on this creature in 3.5, and it is absent on the monsters stat block.
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I'd like to take this moment to note I realize writing anything down here is a waste of time. Let's begin.
The Rust Lord specifically mentions having this ability to corrode metal weapons that touch it, destroying them instantly. It is the stat block, it exists as descriptor and as game mechanic.
Taking that knowledge, we know the ability does in fact exist in pathfinder. Since it doesn't exist on Rust Monster, we must assume that it was not put there on purpose, since the ability does in fact exist in pathfinder, did exist on this creature in 3.5, and it is absent on the monsters stat block.
Rust (Ex)A rust lord that makes a successful touch attack with an antenna causes the target metal to corrode, falling to pieces and becoming useless immediately. The touch can destroy up to a 10-foot cube of metal instantly. Magic armor and weapons, and other magic items made of metal, must succeed on a DC 23 Reflex save or be dissolved. Against creatures made of metal, a rust monster’s antennae deal 6d6+10 points of damage. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +4 racial bonus. A metal weapon that deals damage to a rust lord corrodes immediately. Wooden, stone, and other nonmetallic weapons are unaffected.
It is a 2008 book, so 3.5, but the argument is still valid.
Being able to damage or destroy a weapon striking you is a Special Defense, and require rules on how it work.
If you strike a rust monster with a weapon, what happen?
You damage it and make a reflex save with a DC of 15 to save your weapon from the broken condition?
It is automatically broken because to deliver the damage you have to touch the creature?
As in the older edition it is the creature blood that count or simply touching its hide?
If we go with "how it was in previous editions" there are plenty of partially changed rules where some piece of text in the books don't fully acknowledge the changes.
We should go with what are clearly the rules and then if there are discrepancies between those parts, use the flavor text to see what is the RAI.
Example, the Warp metal spell that Pizza Lord cited:
Targets 1 Small wooden object/level, all within a 20-ft. radius; see text
You cause metal to bend and warp, permanently destroying its straightness, form, and strength. A warped door springs open (or becomes stuck, requiring a successful Strength check to open, at your option). A vehicle grinds to a halt and ceases to operate. Warped ranged weapons are useless. A warped melee weapon imposes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
So the target line say both "Small wooden object" and "see text", while the text say "You cause metal to bend and warp,".
That "see text" give the same rule value to the target line and the whole text of the spell.
So, what flavor text can make it clearer? The name of the spell "Warp Metal".
The target line clearly is a copy/paste error.
For the rust moster we don't have a rule supporting the flavor text, we know that that was the text of previous versions of the creature that had in the ability description a description of the mechanics for destroying weapon hitting it.
Now the mechanics have been removed.
What is more logic? Assuming that the mechanics have been removed but the flavor text take the value of a rule, or that the removal of the mechanics mean that the ability has been removed and the flavor text is a simple copy/paste error.
What happened is they updated the rust monster's abilities by didn't update the description.
It's not the only place such has happened with Pathfinder.
Rust monsters don't damage weapons when they are struck by them, only when they use their antennae attack.
Good to know then. I'll keep that in mind for further readings from now on.
What happened is they updated the rust monster's abilities by didn't update the description.
It's not the only place such has happened with Pathfinder.
Rust monsters don't damage weapons when they are struck by them, only when they use their antennae attack.
Good to know then. I'll keep that in mind for further readings from now on.
Yeah, definitely focus on monster stat blocks. The description is descriptive, not the rules for how the monster functions. Many times the mechanics don't match the description, but that is it's own separate issue.
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Yeah, definitely focus on monster stat blocks. The description is descriptive, not the rules for how the monster functions. Many times the mechanics don't match the description, but that is it's own separate issue.
The worst example of this is that Apocrisiarius Kyton in AP who can't tell a lie, then in the flavor text it describes it not being able to repeat someone else's lie, or any statement that is objectively untrue, whether or not the Kyton knows its truth. This leads to brain fevered people believing it's a font of universal truth, and you just ask it to repeat theories of (for example) Aroden's death nonstop to eliminate the ones that aren't true. If it ever manages to say something like "Pharasma killed him" then you'll know that's what happened.
Yeah, no.
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Or it could just say "I don't know."
Not if wants to help discover the secrets of the multiverse (on behalf of the Kyton race) or is magically compelled to do so. Which is why the flavor text is such an abomination on that one.
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Or it could just say "I don't know."Not if wants to help discover the secrets of the multiverse (on behalf of the Kyton race) or is magically compelled to do so. Which is why the flavor text is such an abomination on that one.
What?
If it doesn't know it can say it doesn't know. Or "I don't know yet."
Or it could just say "I don't know."Not if wants to help discover the secrets of the multiverse (on behalf of the Kyton race) or is magically compelled to do so. Which is why the flavor text is such an abomination on that one.What?
If it doesn't know it can say it doesn't know. Or "I don't know yet."
That's not what the flavor text says, its own knowledge has no impact on whether it can say a thing, just the objective truthfulness of a thing. It's really terrible and poorly thought out!
Though apocrisiariuses are native to the Plane of Shadow, they frequent the Material Plane with distressing regularity. On occasion they hire themselves out to those who require the services of a skilled torturers and interrogators, but they are used most often as messengers and diplomats, particularly in the political mazes of Nidal. Those aware of apocrisiariuses know that they are incapable of uttering falsehoods, and so messages delivered by them are beyond corruption or confusion. If a noble’s conjured apocrisiarius reports to another an offer of alliance, the recipient can rest assured that the source has no duplicity in mind, at least for the moment. Others use these kytons as lie detectors, by either simply capitalizing on their truth auras when interrogating nearby subjects, or asking an allied apocrisiarius to repeat a phrase. If that phrase contains a lie, the kyton cannot repeat it. Of course, these kytons have no additional insights as to why such phrases are lies, and indeed, they have even been known to willfully ignore requests to repeat things they know to be true if doing so can further their own complex plans. To an apocrisiarius, strategically withholding a truth can be far more potent than a lie ever could be.
According to this, if I ask one of these critters to repeat "X has had sexual relations with [a list of 100 people]" you can find out everyone on that list that X has, in fact, had sexual relations with by learning which iterations the apocrisiarius is able or unable to say. The creature's own knowledge has no impact on its ability to state an untruth.
This has come up on these forums before specifically in the case of learning how Aroden died. If you buy this flavor text, it can state the negative of every single proposed theory ("Aroden was not killed by Asmodeus or at his order, nor does Asmodeus know how Aroden died or suspect the true killer." If he was able to say that, Asmodeus is exonerated and there's little point in asking him who he thinks did it) until you find one it cannot state. ("Aroden was not killed by authorial fiat." You can't say that!? Try "Aroden WAS killed by authorial fiat." Gadzooks, we've solved it! Or more efficiently, "Aroden was killed by someone whose name can be represented by the [specific alphabet]. Aroden was killed by someone whose name begins with [A-Z]. The second letter of Aroden's killer's name is [A-Z]. Repeat until his name is spelled out.)
The implication is that the Kytons can find out everything about the world they care to know, and anyone capable of putting a geas or dominate monster on one an exercising some patience can, too.
It's incredibly dumb and the poster child for "don't pay attention to rules implication of flavor text," which is why I bring it up in this thread trying to apply flavor text to rules.
Or it could just say "I don't know."Not if wants to help discover the secrets of the multiverse (on behalf of the Kyton race) or is magically compelled to do so. Which is why the flavor text is such an abomination on that one.What?
If it doesn't know it can say it doesn't know. Or "I don't know yet."
Not if it is actively interested in learning the answer to the question. That would be stupid, counterproductive, and against its own interests.
Or if, for some reason, it is magically compelled to answer only with "yes" or "no."
As an example of the former, let's say that the kyton has lost a valuable item that it wishes to recover. I ask it to say the words "the object is located on the northern hemisphere of the planet Golarion."
If it is able to say that, we now have an effective procedure for finding it with minimal effort. Ask it, now, to say the words "the object is located between the equator of Golarion and the north 45th parallel of latitude." If it can't actually say that, the next phrase is "the object is between the north 67th parallel of latitude and the north 45th parallel of latitude of the planet Golarion." Computer programmers will immediately recognize this as our old friend binary search. In a relative handful of statements, I can identify the location of this object to within inches, aiding the kyton in its recovery.
Why on earth would the kyton choose not to cooperate?
Any metal touched by the rust monster’s delicate antennae or armored hide corrodes and falls to dust within seconds, making the beast a major threat to subterranean adventurers and those dwarven miners who must defend their forges and compete for ore.
A rust monster‘s antennae are a primary touch attack that causes any metal object they touch to swiftly rust and corrode. The object touched takes half its maximum hp in damage and gains the broken condition—a second hit destroys the item. A rust monster never provokes attacks of opportunity by attempting to strike a weapon with its antennae. Against creatures made of metal, a rust monster‘s antennae deal 3d6+5 points of damage. An attended object, any magic object, or a metal creature can attempt a DC 15 Reflex save to negate this effect. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Looking at the above there is a conflict if you believe that the flavour text means anything touching the armoured hide instantly corrodes to rust in seconds. It says "or" followed by "corrodes and falls to dust within seconds". So it's talking about both the antennae and hide yet there are only rules for the antennae.
The Rust Lord on the other hand has a rule for when it is hit in combat.
Plus the rules for the antennae don't say that the item instantly rusts. It has to get hit twice so even that contradicts the flavour text.
Therefore the hide on a Rust Monster does nothing.
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Nerding time:
"Rust" refers specifically to iron and its variants, so by default it only matters to certain metals. the description notes that the RM affects all metals, likely because to rule otherwise would need clarification on which metals are iron-like enough to qualify.
Yeah, it's Saturday Morning Cartoon logic. Metal rusts, evil is ugly, and so forth. Thinking too hard about this game, mostly just pokes holes in it with no gain.
Oo...
Thanks to Pizza Lord I've just read this thread's title as «Attacking a Rust Monster with a Pizza»
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Thanks to Pizza Lord I've practiced my ability to scroll past walls of text quickly. The actual rules on how antenna and only antenna rust things are so much more concise.
*insert 'why not both?' meme here*
PF is more player friendly than other games/editions: no more save or die spells, no more experience cost for spells and items, soft death penalties...
The monster is more a nuisance than a deadly threat to the party. The poor guy only deals 1d3 dmg
If one goes the hard way, let the party be prepared before entering an infested mine with those monsters and let'em have fun killing them with non-metal weapons and proyectile weapons
Yeah, it's Saturday Morning Cartoon logic. Metal rusts, evil is ugly, and so forth.
What is this Saturday Morning Cartoons you speak of?
;)