Akashic Form exploit


Rules Questions

1 to 50 of 55 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Silver Crusade

If I possess a dragon, and then cast Akashic Form, the form stored will be the dragon's body, right?

If I then end the possession or greater possession or the magic jar or whatever... The dragon is released.

But the dragon is angry at my possessing it! So it kills me.

I have now died within 24 hours. I'm now reformed as a dragon, right? A possession spell is still affecting my body at that point, but clearly not to keep my soul in. This body has just been created specifically for my soul, as per the wording of Akashic Form.

Am I reading it right? Is this a way to become the dragon?

And if not... Would a wish be sufficient to deal with the affecting possession in the manner I want?


...This might actually work, per the rules.


interesting - as a GM i'd probably say that no you can't become a dragon that way as it'd be OP unless the dragon is weaker than your lvl 17+ self


Obviously, I wouldn't allow this as a GM. My next step is figuring out a reasonable reason why.

The body of the dragon you're possessing clearly isn't your body, you're just borrowing it.

I congratulate you on a clever interpretation, and we move on with the game.


It sounds fine to me, and I would personally allow it. Having the body of a dragon honestly seems rather tame compared to some of the things level 18+ spellcasters can manage, so I don't foresee it breaking things any worse than they already have been.


The only real question regarding this is whether or not the dragon you're possessing counts as 'your' body.

Otherwise, it might work with a GM who doesn't mind game balance.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Your body doesn't change when you polymorph, you just take the form of your new form. I'd say it you come back as your form.


I'd let it work, if only because it's the kind of thing a 9th-Level Spell should be able to accomplish.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Congratulations on becoming my new most interesting NPC?


James Risner wrote:
Your body doesn't change when you polymorph, you just take the form of your new form. I'd say it you come back as your form.

who is poly-morphing?


Actually, I would argue that your soul is still attached to your own body, since disrupting the possession sends you back to it, rather than cutting you loose to fade into the astral. So since the spell captures your body, and the dragon's body is not your body...

Just as well though, because adding 15 or so effective levels to your character boots your clever self right out of the game.

EDIT/ADD
If I was in a really dickish mood, the Dragon takes ownership of the spell when it takes back its body, assuming the spell keys to the body.


Dragon's body is not your body, regardless that it's the body your possessing.

Doesn't work by my reading of the rules.

We can argue around it all we want, but no sane GM should ever allow this to work.


With Greater Possession, your original body doesn't exist while possessing the dragon. So, without an original body existing, does Akashic Form fail or use the body of the Dragon you are current residing in?


Your physical body vanishes, isn't the same as doesn't exist.

If you use Akashic form it will copy your disconnected body or the spell will fail.

Under no circumstances do you get a body upgrade. The spell was not intended to do that ever.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I have four major problems with this.

1) The logic doesn't follow because the dragon's body is not your body. Yes, you're possessing a dragon and usually effects that target a body would affect the dragon's body. However, it's still not your body. Your true body still exists, and your soul is still tied to it. The same logic applies if you tried this trick with the clone spell. It doesn't matter if you possessed the dragon and created a clone. All you would do is create a clone of the dragon, because it's not your body!

2) The Akashic Record is a perfect document. It knows what your real body is. You can't fool it by putting your soul in someone else's body.

3) Turning into a dragon as an instantaneous duration is more powerful than what a 9th level spell can do. Especially one that doesn't have any material component. Form of the dragon III is a 9th level spell and only lasts minutes per level. There's very few ways to actually change your race in the game. Reincarnation is random and greater mind swap has an expensive material component and only works on creatures of your race. Since greater mind swap is a 9th-level spell designed specifically to give you a new body, then giving you the body of a more powerful race would be beyond the power of a 9th level spell.

4) Possession doesn't target you. It targets the creature you're possessing. Akashic form only concerns itself with spells that target you.

Scarab Sages

Oddly enough, casting Possession and then Greater Mind Swap would allow you to take any body. Since for targeting effects, your current body is your current race and type.
Probably shouldn't allow it as a GM. But that's sort of what this thread is about. The excuses that make a rule that technically works not work for balance reasons.

@Cyrad
4) Any effect that targets 'you' targets the current you.
Now, what would happen, by RAW, is that the possessed body gets stored. But, what is stored is a host body with Possession cast on it. This line becomes important,

"Spells affecting you when you store a record of yourself abide by their normal durations. For example, if you were affected by cat’s grace when you created the record and you restore your body 1 hour later, you won’t be under that effect anymore since its duration has already expired."

If you choose to pull the akashic form but the possession has ended... the host body appears(without a soul since the spell does not record souls, only bodies) but your soul does not link to the body. As the possession spell is what linked your soul to that body. You are now dead without a corpse. But if possession is still active then you possess the body. But it is not a permanent body and you will now require a resurrection spell that does not need a body part if the spell ends or the body dies.

The given example has the player dying after the possession ends(though, I suppose you should rule that the spell is separate from the non-stored body and if the spell did not end by duration then the stored body's duration should still be ticking down). This is the worst case for them.

It would not be permanent. No more so than someone casting possession repeatedly before the spell ends to refresh the duration. This is not actually a beneficial situation for the caster.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Lorewalker, look up the possession spell. It does not target you. It targets the creature you're possessing. Part of the OP's logic is that the possession would be active when akashic form revives your body because the spell says it "saves" spell effects that target you when you cast it. It doesn't work that way because possession doesn't target you.

Also, using greater mind swap with possession won't let you take any body because possession does not change your creature type.

Scarab Sages

Cyrad wrote:

Lorewalker, look up the possession spell. It does not target you. It targets the creature you're possessing. Part of the OP's logic is that the possession would be active when akashic form revives your body because the spell says it "saves" spell effects that target you when you cast it. It doesn't work that way because possession doesn't target you.

Also, using greater mind swap with possession won't let you take any body because possession does not change your creature type.

Are you aware of what possession does after targeting through?

Step 1) Creature A casts possession at creature B
Step 2) Creature A is now an amalgam of Creature A's mental stats and Creature B's physical body.

If you cast a spell that targets 'you,' it does not target your souless body. It targets your new body. If someone target's you(as in your new body) with Dispel Magic they can end the possession... as the possession spell targeted your new body and exists on that body as a continuous effect. Again, which is you. Targeting the soulless body does not end the possession effect as the spell does not affect that body.

Note please where I say that this is a bad situation for the caster. As they no longer have a body to return to after possession ends(if they died in their original body). The consequences are worse to come back with a possessed body. You are one dispel magic away from requiring very expensive magic to be resurrected. In which case you would be resurrected with your original body. Or, really, whatever current body is considered your 'original body'. Given effects that make permanent soul transfers.

This would not be a permanent soul change despite what the OP's reading seems to achieve. They only get the loaner body and might get the thing that temporarily attaches their soul to that body depending on elapsed duration.
======================
Possession gives your their body. You only retain your mental stats and abilities. Race is not a mental trait. There are Pathfinder cannon examples of souls being moved and giving you full benefit of the new body. Including race as that is a physical trait.

Again, I'm not advocating that a GM should allow this. It is definitely a loophole around the intent of the rules.


It's a clever but unworkable idea. Allowing a character to change his character to a high CR monster with upwards of 17 caster class levels added to that is just stupid. Of course the OP knows this, choosing the word Exploit is accurate. As long as you want stupid though, allow any of the infinite free wishes exploits to max out all the stats, and make the special abilities of the hijacked body available as well.

Or, you can appreciate the clever silliness of the idea, and not carry the arguments on to where it isn't fun anymore.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
James Risner wrote:
Your body doesn't change when you polymorph, you just take the form of your new form. I'd say it you come back as your form.
who is poly-morphing?

Oh. Fair. Even easier.

You are possessing a dragon, it isn't your body. Your body is elsewhere. The spell works on your body, not your possessed body.


So, to what form are you restored when Akashic Form takes hold? Your body didn't even exist when you cast the spell.


Your body exists someplace, just not anywhere near you.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Lorewalker wrote:
Cyrad wrote:

Lorewalker, look up the possession spell. It does not target you. It targets the creature you're possessing. Part of the OP's logic is that the possession would be active when akashic form revives your body because the spell says it "saves" spell effects that target you when you cast it. It doesn't work that way because possession doesn't target you.

Also, using greater mind swap with possession won't let you take any body because possession does not change your creature type.

Are you aware of what possession does after targeting through?

Step 1) Creature A casts possession at creature B
Step 2) Creature A is now an amalgam of Creature A's mental stats and Creature B's physical body.

If you cast a spell that targets 'you,' it does not target your souless body. It targets your new body. If someone target's you(as in your new body) with Dispel Magic they can end the possession... as the possession spell targeted your new body and exists on that body as a continuous effect. Again, which is you. Targeting the soulless body does not end the possession effect as the spell does not affect that body.

Note please where I say that this is a bad situation for the caster. As they no longer have a body to return to after possession ends(if they died in their original body). The consequences are worse to come back with a possessed body. You are one dispel magic away from requiring very expensive magic to be resurrected. In which case you would be resurrected with your original body. Or, really, whatever current body is considered your 'original body'. Given effects that make permanent soul transfers.

This would not be a permanent soul change despite what the OP's reading seems to achieve. They only get the loaner body and might get the thing that temporarily attaches their soul to that body depending on elapsed duration.
======================
Possession gives your their body. You only retain your mental stats and abilities. Race is not a mental trait. There are...

Creature type is an abstraction that is not wholly decided by your body. Possession is very specific about what you gain from the possessed body. You don't gain the target's creature type.

How bad of a situation that the loophole, in your mind's eye, creates is totally irrelevant to me because it's not legal in the rules in the first place.

Scarab Sages

Cyrad wrote:

Creature type is an abstraction that is not wholly decided by your body. Possession is very specific about what you gain from the possessed body. You don't gain the target's creature type.

How bad of a situation that the loophole, in your mind's eye, creates is totally irrelevant to me because it's not legal in the rules in the first place.

That's just not true. The spell is very generic about about some things what you gain or retain. You gain the body's physical traits(anything "automatic or natural" how is that for specific?) but you don't gain anything you have to activate. You only keep your mental traits, that part is fairly specific.

Race is definitely a physical trait. That is just going by established rules and not a guess on my part. No matter your personal view on it. There are too many cannon cases that include souls switching bodies and acquiring racial traits. The rules usually run something like this, "You still count as your original race for prerequisites that you acquired in your original body but you can no longer acquire new options with that prereq. You can select options that match your new race." Reincarnate is one of these abilities where you are now the same soul but a different body with a new race.

reincarnate wrote:
" First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores."

I can dredge up other abilities that do the same if you wish.

For instance, if you possess a magic beast but you are a human... spells that target humans will not target you in your new body. You will need to be targeted by something that targets magical beasts.

@DAW
He is already able to work the basic idea of taking the body. That is what Possession does. That spell has an unlimited duration given that you explicitly can refresh the duration by casting the spell again. So it is very workable. It is only the gaining immunity to dispel effects that doesn't work through the spell interaction.


Lorewalker wrote:


Race is definitely a physical trait.

BAB, weapon proficiencies, and immunity to mind affecting are things that result from physical traits? Because those come with some/all creature types.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Oh my inner devil rejoices to Daedalus DB's preference that the passessor's body ceases to exist. Please, oh please let us pick that one. The Akashic Record erasing the caster's physical existance is just delicious. Free range soul snacks, yummy.

Still funny, losing its shiny a bit though.

You're wrong!

No, you're wrong! ...........


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Claxon wrote:
but no sane GM should ever allow this to work.

This has got to be the single most obnoxious phrase on the entire forum.

Like somehow if someone runs their game differently than you not only are the wrong, but they're actually mentally imbalanced.

Why not just say "I would never allow something like this" or "I don't think this is fair"?


How so? It's an acronym.
A SANE GM is one that
Simply
Allows
No
Exploits


Given that, when I look at spells at Magic Jar, it refers to your original body as "your" body, I'd say it wouldn't work.

prd wrote:
The spell ends when you send your soul back to your own body, leaving the receptacle empty. -Magic Jar

Possession has similar text:

pfsrd wrote:
When you transfer your soul upon casting, your body appears to be dead.

as does Greater Possession

pfsrd wrote:
You enter the host’s body and your physical body vanishes.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I've asked similar questions before.

Confusion over possession effects is nothing new. Sadly, anything resembling official answers are essentially non-existent.

I even had a hot FAQ thread about it going for a little while. If you want official answers to questions like the one posed by the OP of this thread, I suggest going over there and hitting the FAQ button on the the opening post.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Lorewalker wrote:
Cyrad wrote:

Creature type is an abstraction that is not wholly decided by your body. Possession is very specific about what you gain from the possessed body. You don't gain the target's creature type.

How bad of a situation that the loophole, in your mind's eye, creates is totally irrelevant to me because it's not legal in the rules in the first place.

That's just not true. The spell is very generic about about some things what you gain or retain. You gain the body's physical traits(anything "automatic or natural" how is that for specific?) but you don't gain anything you have to activate. You only keep your mental traits, that part is fairly specific.

Race is definitely a physical trait. That is just going by established rules and not a guess on my part. No matter your personal view on it. There are too many cannon cases that include souls switching bodies and acquiring racial traits. The rules usually run something like this, "You still count as your original race for prerequisites that you acquired in your original body but you can no longer acquire new options with that prereq. You can select options that match your new race." Reincarnate is one of these abilities where you are now the same soul but a different body with a new race.

reincarnate wrote:
" First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores."

I can dredge up other abilities that do the same if you wish.

For instance, if you possess a magic beast but you are a human... spells that target humans will not target you in your new body. You will need to be targeted by something that targets magical beasts.

That's not how it works. Creature types are not wholly physical characteristics. They determine non-physical aspects including Hit Die, armor/weapon proficiencies, skill point progression, racial spell-like abilities, class skills, Will saving throw progression, and whether or not you use racial Hit Dice. In fact, some creature types (such as vermin, animals, and magical beasts) are defined based. And since creature type is not a wholly physical trait, possessing a creature would not change your creature type.

No effect changes your creature type unless it specifically says so. Considering that creature type is an abstraction that determines so much about a character, it makes sense why this is the case. If your creature type changed, it would raise so many questions about how it would affect your skills, Hit Dice, etc. It would be a mechanical nightmare. It's also worth pointing out that reincarnate doesn't change your creature type unless by GM fiat. It explicitly says that a humanoid becomes a humanoid while a non-humanoid becomes a random creature of the same type.

Possession is specific about what changes. Creature type is not one of them.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Ravingdork, that FAQ you have is way too open ended. I could imagine a number of different answers depending on which needle you are threading. We may never see an answer for that when we could if we asked "Do person spells work on my possessed body?"

The issue I see is there would be different answers for things like this spell (Akashi Firm) on a possessed body.


I find it interesting that people are so vehement that characters shouldn't be able to do this with a 9th level spell when that's exactly what Parasitic Soul does + kills the soul of the creature.

I think DMs and groups that don't like body hopping shenanigans should just ban the spells whole cloth instead of trying to convince everyone else that they don't do what they say they do.

As it is a well built 9th level full caster with a normal Extend Metamagic Rod and a Chest of Keeping can pretty much upgrade their body indefinitely except through concerted DM action. And either that's the magic carpet ride we're intended to be on or there have been years of serious miscommunication.

But hey, I'm all for reading 9th level spells as contrarian as possible if that's what's all the rage. Let's do World Wave. I posit it does nothing because it doesn't list a move speed and really, should 9th level spells be able to wipe the face of civilized society off the Material Plane?


Hushed wrote:

I find it interesting that people are so vehement that characters shouldn't be able to do this with a 9th level spell when that's exactly what Parasitic Soul does + kills the soul of the creature.

I think DMs and groups that don't like body hopping shenanigans should just ban the spells whole cloth instead of trying to convince everyone else that they don't do what they say they do.

As it is a well built 9th level full caster with a normal Extend Metamagic Rod and a Chest of Keeping can pretty much upgrade their body indefinitely except through concerted DM action. And either that's the magic carpet ride we're intended to be on or there have been years of serious miscommunication.

But hey, I'm all for reading 9th level spells as contrarian as possible if that's what's all the rage. Let's do World Wave. I posit it does nothing because it doesn't list a move speed and really, should 9th level spells be able to wipe the face of civilized society off the Material Plane?

An important difference is that with parasitic soul, it's duration permanent. Which means a dispel magic or antimagic field forces the soul out of the body and then the body (dies maybe) is at least not inhabited by that soul any more. And it also means that it's not it's real body.

Also, you wouldn't be able to do it for yourself. You would need someone else to cast the spell for you since the spell requires the soul to be trapped via soul bind or trap the soul.


Claxon wrote:
Hushed wrote:

I find it interesting that people are so vehement that characters shouldn't be able to do this with a 9th level spell when that's exactly what Parasitic Soul does + kills the soul of the creature.

I think DMs and groups that don't like body hopping shenanigans should just ban the spells whole cloth instead of trying to convince everyone else that they don't do what they say they do.

As it is a well built 9th level full caster with a normal Extend Metamagic Rod and a Chest of Keeping can pretty much upgrade their body indefinitely except through concerted DM action. And either that's the magic carpet ride we're intended to be on or there have been years of serious miscommunication.

But hey, I'm all for reading 9th level spells as contrarian as possible if that's what's all the rage. Let's do World Wave. I posit it does nothing because it doesn't list a move speed and really, should 9th level spells be able to wipe the face of civilized society off the Material Plane?

An important difference is that with parasitic soul, it's duration permanent. Which means a dispel magic or antimagic field forces the soul out of the body and then the body (dies maybe) is at least not inhabited by that soul any more. And it also means that it's not it's real body.

Also, you wouldn't be able to do it for yourself. You would need someone else to cast the spell for you since the spell requires the soul to be trapped via soul bind or trap the soul.

Actually you would be able to do it for yourself. The key word is may. You may transfer a trapped soul. Otherwise it works as Magic Jar. And see that's what I'm talking about. Just trying to be as restrictive and contrarian as possible.

Admittedly it's a problematic spell. I certainly wouldn't allow it in my game. But then I don't let my games get to the phenominal cosmic power stage. I just also don't begrudge those who do.

Sort of like I dont read "You create a perfect record of your physical body in the Akashic Record at the time the spell is cast." and decide everyone needs to reinterpret what body you cast it on with a range of personal and a target of you. I get it, magic is too powerful. That's not going to be settled in the trenches through pedantry.


That was a misreading on my part, that someone else would need to do it.

But that doesn't really change anything about how the spell functions then. It functions as magic jar, which we already know doesn't work with akashic form because it's not your body.

It's not like it takes a particularly strained understanding of "your body" to say the body you are using magic jar to inhabit isn't actually your body. In fact, quite the opposite it takes a much more loose understanding of "your body" to think that the body you've snatched is actually yours.


Except it doesn't say 'your body'. It seems wrong to use quotes there. I already quoted the actual wording. If it had just said your body it would have saved on words and the ambiguity could possibly have favored your interpretation. Instead it went through a deal of trouble to specify something else. Which you're ignoring because it's inconvenient to your interpretation.

Next let's do Astral Projection. We need to do something about characters using Plane Shift for effectively infinite gear. Surely a contrarian interpretation will save the game!


I'm talking about Akashic Form which says:

Quote:
You create a perfect record of your physical body in the Akashic Record at the time the spell is cast.

And Magic Jar (which Parasitic Soul references says):

Quote:

Attempting to possess a body is a full-round action. It is blocked by protection from evil or a similar ward. You possess the body and force the creature’s soul into the magic jar unless the subject succeeds on a Will save. Failure to take over the host leaves your life force in the magic jar, and the target automatically succeeds on further saving throws if you attempt to possess its body again.

If you are successful, your life force occupies the host body, and the host’s life force is imprisoned in the magic jar. You keep your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities. The body retains its Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and automatic abilities. A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You can’t choose to activate the body’s extraordinary or supernatural abilities. The creature’s spells and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body.

Which implies clearly it is not your body but a host body.

Just because your body vanishes in the description of greater possession doesn't mean that body you are possessing is now your body.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's debatable as far as I'm concerned. It IS considered your body for a great many effects. It would have to be, otherwise a large number of spells wouldn't be able to be used on you while using magic jar to possess another body, or the like. As to where you should draw the line is anyone's guess, which is why I urge you to FAQ my thread.


Claxon wrote:

I'm talking about Akashic Form which says:

Quote:
You create a perfect record of your physical body in the Akashic Record at the time the spell is cast.

And Magic Jar (which Parasitic Soul references says):

Quote:

Attempting to possess a body is a full-round action. It is blocked by protection from evil or a similar ward. You possess the body and force the creature’s soul into the magic jar unless the subject succeeds on a Will save. Failure to take over the host leaves your life force in the magic jar, and the target automatically succeeds on further saving throws if you attempt to possess its body again.

If you are successful, your life force occupies the host body, and the host’s life force is imprisoned in the magic jar. You keep your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities. The body retains its Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and automatic abilities. A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You can’t choose to activate the body’s extraordinary or supernatural abilities. The creature’s spells and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body.

Which implies clearly it is not your body but a host body.

Just because your body vanishes in the description of greater possession doesn't mean that body you are possessing is now your body.

It does mean it's your physical body at the time the spell is cast. It's the recipient of the spell range personal. It's the target you.

You finally manage to quote Akashic Form correctly, only then to go back to try to rereference it as 'your body' even though its not what the spell says. You were so close!

Now as a thought experiment- since you're so convinced Akashic Form doesn't support body-hopping, how would you word such a spell so that it does support body-hopping? How would you word the spell so that no matter which physical manifestation you were experiencing, it would be remembered. Like an object memory stored in the Akashic Record.

Next let's do Aroden's Spellbane. Silly wizards with their spell invulnerable golem body chariots are blowing raspberries at each other and in general being mean. Surely a careful reinterpretation of the spell text will keep them from giving the DM a headache when the Spellbanes collide.


No, it's not your physical body. It's a body. You are possessing it, but it's not your body. That's established by Magic Jar.

Yes Akashic Form is range personal and target you, that doesn't mean it works on the possessed body. It means Akashic Form fails.

I reference it as your body because it says your physical body. Your body and your physical body must have the same meaning.

And again, remember possession says your body vanishes, which implies that your body exists somewhere, not that the body your possessing is your physical body.

And why do you keep talking about other spells and what they can and can't do? They're not relevant to the conversation. Quit trying to jump off topic. You're behaving and arguing in an unpleasant manner, and I'm not inclined to continue this discussion much longer if you continue.

The main problem as I see it is that you think the possessed body is your body, and that it counts for akashic form because it includes the word physical body in there.

I say it doesn't count because it's never your body, your physical body vanished with greater posession. What that means exactly for how akashic form works is unclear (I think it simply fails), but it doesn't mean you get a permanent copy of that body.


Claxon wrote:

No, it's not your physical body. It's a body. You are possessing it, but it's not your body. That's established by Magic Jar.

Yes Akashic Form is range personal and target you, that doesn't mean it works on the possessed body. It means Akashic Form fails.

I reference it as your body because it says your physical body. Your body and your physical body must have the same meaning.

And again, remember possession says your body vanishes, which implies that your body exists somewhere, not that the body your possessing is your physical body.

I'll thank you not to quote me inaccurately. I dont think the host body is your body. I think the host body is your physical body at the time the spell is cast.

So now you've reaffirmed that you think Akashic Form is exclusive, but again, how would you possibly word it to be inclusive?

Claxon wrote:


And why do you keep talking about other spells and what they can and can't do? They're not relevant to the conversation. Quit trying to jump off topic. You're behaving and arguing in an unpleasant manner, and I'm not inclined to continue this discussion much longer if you continue.

The main problem as I see it is that you think the possessed body is your body, and that it counts for akashic form because it includes the word physical body in there.

I say it doesn't count because it's never your body, your physical body vanished with greater posession. What that means exactly for how akashic form works is unclear (I think it simply fails), but it doesn't mean you get a permanent copy of that body.

I certainly wouldn't want you to take your ball and go home, but my examples are relevant to the conversation as they reinforce my point that 9th level spells make particularly poor subjects of contrarian and restrictive pedantry. Magic is (in general) break the game powerful at this stage. You jumping on the tracks about Akashic Form won't stop that train. It's already long left the station.

But hey, you don't have to take my word for it. Who am I to keep you from walking away with a win.


Your examples have nothing to do with the question or discussion at hand?

If you want me to admit 9th level spells are BROKE AF I have no problem doing so.

Akashic Form when used simply as intended is still incredibly overpowered.

All I'm saying is that this particularly combo doesn't work in my opinion, and you can call it pedantry. But from my perspective you're doing the same pedant argument.

Of course, many rules questions in this game do come down to pedant arguments since when the words are unclear all you can do is debate the meaning.

But because just 9th level spells are broken isn't a reason to throw in the towel and say "screw it everything's allowed".


Congratulations, all the fun has now been completely sucked out of this.


There's zero chance a FAQ on this would rule you can use this to change your body.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Claxon is right. Just because it's a 9th level spell doesn't mean it shouldn't have a limit in power. There are effects that are too powerful even for 9th level spells. I already explained why allowing Akashic Form to do this would be overpowered.

And I will also reiterate that, lore-wise, it doesn't make any sense for the spell to let you copy a possessed body. The Akashic Record is a supernaturally perfect document. You can't fool it by putting your soul into someone else's body. That's like saying you own your neighbor's house because you broke into it one night and slept on his couch.


Cyrad wrote:

Claxon is right. Just because it's a 9th level spell doesn't mean it shouldn't have a limit in power. There are effects that are too powerful even for 9th level spells. I already explained why allowing Akashic Form to do this would be overpowered.

And I will also reiterate that, lore-wise, it doesn't make any sense for the spell to let you copy a possessed body. The Akashic Record is a supernaturally perfect document. You can't fool it by putting your soul into someone else's body. That's like saying you own your neighbor's house because you broke into it one night and slept on his couch.

I don't think it's a matter of 'fooling' the Akashic Record. It's a matter of storing the object memory of the physical body you inhabit like any other object memory in the Akashic Record. The Akashic Record doesn't issue you a new body, the 9th level spell forms the body from the perfect record of the physical object. To me lore-wise it makes more sense for it to treat the body as a seperate physical object than the alternative.

Otherwise I feel you need to somehow make the argument that the physical body you're born with is intrinsically and inseperably you, which a vast body of lore and spell text contradicts.


Why don't you mutate one of your own clones. Mix in a little dragon blood, inhabit that body for a while, until it isn't viable for whatever reason, perhaps you made powerful enemies , make a new clone, with more dragon blood, repeat until you are completely Draconic. It isn't all that clever, but cloning is a time honored way to abuse the system. ;)


Daw wrote:
Why don't you mutate one of your own clones. Mix in a little dragon blood, inhabit that body for a while, until it isn't viable for whatever reason, perhaps you made powerful enemies , make a new clone, with more dragon blood, repeat until you are completely Draconic. It isn't all that clever, but cloning is a time honored way to abuse the system. ;)

Or use Aroden's Spellbane to exclude any spell you feel threatens your possession. Once that's done, pretty much the only things removing him from the body are DM fiat and overwhelming damage.


Anti magic fields?

1 to 50 of 55 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Akashic Form exploit All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.