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As a GM I think the crafting chassis in PF2e is a huge improvement. Sure, there are some nuances involved that means a player would have to trust the GM to make crafting worthwhile. It’s true a lot of GMs may hand wave item availability or downtime income in ways that would make crafting utterly useless, but that kind of table variance isn’t the fault of the crafting rules themselves.

My only gripe is that crafting is still keyed entirely off of Int. They really should have taken the opportunity to break that stranglehold. If they keyed different aspects of crafting to different attributes (like Dex for progress per hour or day and Con for hours per day), and rolled in some Dynamic crafting rules (I thought those were cool) and some complexity DC adjustments, crafting could have been perfect.

Truthfully, I don’t really expect them to make crafting compelling. For now I’m just satisfied PF2e is not horribly broken like PF1 is.

So, I know there's the Perfectionist Shavtoosh for Improved Unarmed Strike, a handful of Ioun Stone + Wayfinder options, and the Training weapon enhancement.

What other items exist that basically allow you to purchase feats?

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The Wasting curse gives immunity to the sickened condition, and several curses use the sickened condition as their malus. Is a Dual-Cursed Oracle with Wasting immune to sickened? Both sources are curses.

Inscribe Magical Tattoo gives you 2 additional 'ring' slots.

Dave Justus wrote:
darth_borehd wrote:
Dave Justus wrote:

The megaraptor he is using probably has an incorrect INT score.

The d20PFSRD has an entry for it.

Well, since that is an unimpeachable source....oh wait.

How to generate megaraptor stats is clearly spelled out, as I demonstrated. It should only have an INT of 2.

Regardless of whether that instance should have such a high INT, it's not hard to come up with other instances with equally high or higher INT. A Nature Mystery Oracle can have a Bonded Mount that starts with 6 INT. A human with the Eye for Talent racial trait can increase that to 8 INT. A few levels levels and you can have an Animal Companion smarter than most humans.

Is the Invested Regent intended to be stackable with other archetypes? The wording comes across very similar to the Qinggong monk archetype, but I was hoping someone involved in making it could clarify the intention.

Oracle is one of the few that can keep a Animal Companion's Hit Dice competitive to the party's.

1/6 level Favored Class Bonus to the Revelation giving the companion, Magical Enigma storyline feat, and then Huntmaster. I think you can swing all of that with a half-elf or aasimar to have a 13 HD Animal Companion by level 12 (which is the hard limit by FAQ).

That won't necessarily be more viable than Totem Beast or teamwork feats, but it is a way to go 'all in' on an Animal Companion.

If you're ok with Horses, Genie-touched Companion out of the Qadira splatbook is a solid boost. I'm a big fan.

Diego, I think you're overstating.

Paragon Surge + New Arcana pre-FAQ was about as powerful as the Razmiran Priest. We're talking a power level well above and beyond this.

A Shaman can already use Arcane Enlightenment this way and is a full prepared caster to boot. Spirit Guide Oracle spending a feat to use the hex the same way doesn't catch it up in terms of power even to any of the full prepared casters.

Additionally, they can get similar flexibilty out of Ancient Lorekeeper or the Shadow mystery without becoming MAD which using Arcane Enlightenment requires.

Diego Rossi wrote:
Hushed wrote:
... a concept that's largely hand-waived.

That work fine as long as the players don't try to get extra benefits from that hand waving.

Trying to get access as spontaneous spellcasters to several new, different, spells, every day has already been squished by the FAQs (see Paragon Surge). I doubt that if this is ever FAQed they will rule differently.

No, the Paragon Surge FAQ didn't stop access to Extra Spells Known- just that you couldn't change what you gained more than once a day.

Also the FAQs have never squished Spell Sage, or Spell Kenning, or Versatile Spontaneity, or the handful of other options for off class spells. They just specifically squished New Arcana or anything else that might add a spell known without adding it to the class spell list.

To my knowledge Scaled Disciple still works as intended after the FAQs because the Blood of Dragon spells are added to the class rather than the Spells Known.

Diego Rossi wrote:

The problem is that Paizo has never really decide how that work.

Think magus:
- you recover your arcana point when you memorize the spells.
- if you are unable to recover your spells, you don't recover the arcana points (I have played in that situation, a pain in the ass).
- with Knowledge Pool you can expend arcana point to memorize spells that aren't in your spell book.

So, what arcana point are you expending with Knowledge Pool? yesterday leftover points? Some of the points you haven't jet recovered?
Mr. Schrodinger Arcana points?

I think the problem arises from treating preparation like a binary event. Some of the benefits of preparation have to be available during the preparation itself in order for the concept to work at all. Empty slots are available to be used during preparation. New arcana points that affect preparation are available during preparation. Access to spell lists is available during preparation.

There's no effort to break down the concept beyond the start time and the length of the time required because it shouldn't take an instruction manual to walk a player through a concept that's largely hand-waived.

"Diego Rossi wrote:
"You get the benefits of spell preparation and all that come with it after you have completed spell preparation, not before or during spell preparation (proved by the simple fact that if you don't complete spell preparation you don't get the benefits). So the spirit is available after you have completed spell preparation. But if the spirit isn't available while you are preparing your spells, you can't prepare those spells.

It uses similar terminology to the text of Versatile Spontaneity.

'when she refreshes her spells'
'when you regain spell slots at the start of the day'.

To say one is unavailable to the other when they're predicated to be available at the same time is more than a little obtuse.

It's also remarkably like saying a prepared caster can't prepare spells because he has no empty spell slots to prepare spells into until after preparation. We know that's patently false as the cleric and wizard class text specify that they get the benefit of empty slots to prepare into 'while' and 'during' preparation. So at least some of the benefits of spell preparation are available during the spell preparation itself.

Further, it's the same trigger text as for the Shaman class description of wandering spirit and wandering hex. To argue that it doesn't work for a Spirit Guide Oracle due to some minutiae of word choice means it wouldn't work for the class it was originally written for either.

You had to really reach to be contrary on that one. What would you have accomplished? That someone who wanted to use the arcane enlightenment hex would have to wait until they prepared spells the next day?

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I too would go Sorcerer over Bloodrager.

Though I would go Oracle + Racial Heritage + Scaled Disciple (with a Mystery that had at least a couple good revelations that weren't level dependent like Lore, Nature, or Shadow) over the arcane options.

No, the current ruling is that off class spells can only be automatically added to the spell list by class features (aka bloodline spells, mystery spells, domain spells, spells granted by archetype, etc.). Improved Eldritch Heritage is a feat rather than a class feature, and does not include any language adding spells to your class spell list.

Diego Rossi wrote:

As selecting the spirit guide and the hex is part of the preparation process, the spell granted by the hex aren't available for memorization when you start refreshing them.

This makes no sense that I can discern. Could you clarify what distinction you're trying to make?

MichaelCullen wrote:

What if you have the Versatile Spontenaity feat?

Then you can be an oracle who prepares a spell.

Yes; all you need is the ability to prepare spells. Versatile Spontaneity satisfies this requirement. You still need to satisfy Versatile Spontaneity's requirements (spellbook or scrolls, Wis 13).

Can a Witch tell whether their Misfortune Hex succeeded or not? If so, how? Also, what about some of their other hexes like Evil Eye where even failure should look the same as success (if it was visible at all)?

Channel is channel is channel. You are wrong.

Regular shaman hexes include spirit hexes, as quoted. Spirit hexes are the same as hexes granted by the hex class feature, as quoted.

The wandering hex class feature lets you pick spirited hexes from your wandering spirit or from your normal spirit which is part of the hex class feature.

It functions as the hex class feature and so most definitely is not separate.

It's one thing to reject developer commentary on an issue-cases can be made; it's another to reject the source material. We clearly can't agree on premises or terms.

Gallant Armor wrote:

I think there is a disconnect here as to what qualifies as a class feature. For the Shaman, Hex, Wandering Spirit and Wandering Hex are 3 separate class features.

You can have 0, 1, 2 or 3 of these features. A Spirit Guide Oracle gets Wandering Spirit and Wandering Hex but does not get Hex. They don't get access to a single Hex listed under the Hex class feature, therefore they don't get that class feature.

Your argument is akin to a Mutagenic Mauler trying to take Extra Bombs just because Mutagen and Bombs are both class features of the Alchemist.

Hex and Wandering Hex may sound similar but they are completely separate class features and having one does not count as having the other.

Spirit Guide Oracles actually do get access to hexes 'listed' under the hex class feature.

Advanced Class Guide wrote:
...A shaman can select from any of the following hexes or from any of the hexes listed in the description of her chosen spirit....

Additionally, Wandering Hex also specifies

Advanced Class Guide wrote:
...This ability otherwise functions as the hex class feature....

Not that it should even have to. It's nice they have that extra sentence for clarification, but it should be a bit ludicrous to think that people would be suddenly flummoxed over hexes from a temporary list behaving the same ways as from a permanent list.

But here they are.

mousmous wrote:
Hushed wrote:
Has there been an official response?



Thanks. My thread searches weren't pulling up anything, but often they don't when keywords like spirit get reused for vast array of things.

Diego Rossi wrote:

The problem is that your premise is false. The prerequisite is having the Hex class fature or something similar, as explained in SKR post, but you don't have something similar to the hex feature.

You have something that is similar to a piece of the feature, exactly like the necromancer the SKR cited.

Speaking of the tools I'm given. I'll except your premise that a Spirit Guide Oracle is to Necromancer as a Bonded Spirit's hex is to Hex class feature for the sake of this argument (it's not really, but that's besides the point)-

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
If there was a "Prerequisite: channel energy class feature" feat that increased the number of HD of undead you could command or turn at one time, would you let a necromancer take it? Yeah, because that sounds exactly like something the necromancer should be able to do with his channeling ability, as it's something a Command Undead/Turn Undead cleric ought to be able to do it. What about a channel feat that changed the area from a sphere to a cone? Sure, because you could see a Command Undead/Turn Undead cleric taking that feat.

You're explicited contradicted within the same paragraph you quoted. The necromancer isn't precluded from taking feats with a channel energy prerequisite. Having accepted your premise that this is analogous, thank you for proving my point. The Spirit Guide Oracle qualifies for Spirit Talker because talking to additional spirit sounds like something she should be able to do.

You come off so eager to contradict someone it seems like you didn't even bother reading the whole paragraph. Admittedly, it was a big paragraph, and all that reading can be quite burdensome. But you should give it a chance. Context matters.

Lune wrote:

Hushed: Ah, so you are correct. I am fine with 40ft fly speed. Good points on Bodyguard Archetype ability replacement. I still think I'm better off with an archetypeless Animal Companion. I would love to one day be able to use Animal Growth on it. :)

So what are your suggestions if I start with Toughness, Power Attack, Death From Above?

Extra Item Slot. You could also get a lot of mileage out of Additional Traits. Once your character has Pack Flanking and the saddle, Dirty Fighting probably gives you your widest array of options.

Sadly the Griffon will be so focused on just flying it won't be able to give you utility intimidate or anything skill based.

Diego Rossi wrote:

Cevah is right.

@Hushed You are missing part of SKR post

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

And if for some reason two things that seem almost the same (like "channel energy" vs. "channel" vs. "channel positive energy") shouldn't act exactly the same, count on us to tell you how it is different. For example, take the necromancer "power over undead" ability; you can't heal or harm with it, but you can use Command Undead or Turn Undead with it (both of which are based on channeling), and can take feats that augment those two applications, but not feats that alter your purpose away from undead. So, necromancers get an ability that works just like channel energy, except (1) it always works like Command Undead or Turn Undead (i.e., no heal-harm aspect), and (2) can't ever be used on something other than undead. Does the necromancer have an ability called "channel energy"? No.
Bonded Spirit refer to Wandering Spirit, neither work like the hex class feature, so neither is usable for abilities that require the hex class feature.

No, I'm really not. The hexes the Spirit Guide Oracle gets don't operate differently from other hexes and they aren't for a different purpose, it's just a limited list. This is like arguing a Qadiran Horselord doesn't get an Animal Companion because he can only choose a horse. Meanwhile, this doesn't do anything to help your argument that Cevah is right when you're working from the same quote that directly contradicts him.

Indrajit wrote:
Hushed wrote:

Yeah, the channel is channel is channel rule directly and explicitly contradicts this. There's no real point in discussing further if you won't accept rules handed down by the developers; we can't agree on premises or terms.

I've seen this now used twice in refutation as a sort of binding truth. While I actually agree with the idea that they should qualify (as far as my home games are concerned, I'd allow a player to pick up extra channel under the circumstances), your method of shutting down the opposing position is likely invalidated by this quote (quoted here below for your convenience)

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Messageboard posts on a subjects made by the design and development team are not "official rulings" on the games. Clarifications in FAQ posts and errata are official rulings.

Eh, binding truth in that it's the primary premise of the original post for this thread, sure. I started the thread asking a specific question (the question was not 'do Spirit Guide Oracles get a hex class feature?'), and submitted channel is channel is channel as the premise so that I wouldn't have to spend the entire thread going back and forth with the contrarians that have taken up residence trying to fight power with semantics.

Is it a bit dismissive? Sure. But even given channel is channel is channel as a premise they still come and tell me 'getting channel is not the same as getting a channel class feature'. There's nothing left except to dismiss people if they can't or won't come to an agreement of premises or terms in order to address the actual question.

Also Stephen's quote is like 4 years after SKR's. It was all well and good to say in 2014 that Developer's quotes aren't official rulings, but it's 7 years since SKR's post now and they still haven't answered the issue he was talking to in an FAQ or errata (although some of the other channel energy FAQ answers imply its truth); it seems they're happy to rest on the laurels of the developer's comments until they're inconvenient.

It's also not like the FAQ and errata system haven't changed over the years, and there have been plenty of problems along the way, some of which persist even after FAQ or errata. The SLAs/spells issue still causes problems.

But now I'm just ranting. I just wanted to say I hear you. You're not wrong. Ideally. But I have to use the tools available to me, which are sometimes far from ideal.

plaidwandering wrote:

The channel is the channel is why I think it should work

Read the archer fighter can't have weapon training faq, for it works slightly differently so it can't have nice things perspective

Yeah, I was complaining about that FAQ in another thread. It managed to be arbitrary and self contradicting all in one class. By the examples they gave Unarmed Fighter should both have and not have weapon training. Really they just need to errata. Or come out with Pathfinder 2.

Cevah wrote:

Getting channel is not the same as getting a channel class feature.

The Extra Hex requires a class feature, not a hex. Therefore, it needs something that is an equivalent class feature, and Bonded Spirit is not it.


Yeah, the channel is channel is channel rule directly and explicitly contradicts this. There's no real point in discussing further if you won't accept rules handed down by the developers; we can't agree on premises or terms.

I thought the point of PFS was not to have to deal with that kind of table variation. Quote the channel is channel is channel rule at them, then run away to a different table.

Unless you really need the skill points, you're better off with potions or scrolls of Fox's Cunning than spending almost half your WBL on a headband that gives a smaller INT bonus.

Additionally you can ditch the cloak and ring for scrolls or potions of Extended Stunning Barrier.

With all the money you save you can start filling out your inventory with more scrolls, potions, and alchemical whatnots. This is a one shot, so consumables are literally your best bang for your buck.

Lune wrote:
Besides, Griffons from Monstrous Mount Mastery get a fly speed of 80ft, not 40.

The Monstrous Mount Mastery note I'm reading says their fly speed is reduced by half if carrying a rider. It's in the Griffon stat block. So a Griffon has a fly speed of 80 ft as long as you aren't on it.

It's also possible to get around the things you trade away for the Bodyguard archetype.

Improved Spell Sharing is better than Share Spells and Improved Share Spells and gets shared by your Saddle.

Totem Beast: Mouse gets your evasion and improved evasion back.

I still wouldn't suggest it, though. You really don't have the feats and while it makes your Animal Companion more survivable, making your character more effective will probably improve its survivability more.

Eh, the best combos I know for this level range are Spectral Hand + Aboleth Lung and Darkvision + Darkness. Really, your WBL for a one shot like this is probably best spent on scrolls, potions, and various alchemical shenanigans.

As for race I'd go Sylph. Because Obscuring Mist + Cloud Gazer can ruin many a well laid plan and noone can afford goz masks at this level.

I'd invest in a Handy Haversack and take Potion Glutton. Action economy will probably be at a premium here at crunch time.

So my Arcanist build would look something like...

1 Cloud Gazer
3 Potion Glutton
5 Additional Traits (Reactionary, Desperate Focus)

If not Sylph then

1 Potion Glutton
Bonus Skill Focus (heal)
3 Additional Traits (Reactionary, Desperate Focus)
5 Eldritch Heritage: Daemon (Wasting Ray is incredibly powerful in cases like this)

Bump. Also, does anyone know if any familiar summoned this way should get size adjustments?

If you take them as an Improved Familiar, not that I know of.

If you take them as a Guardian Spirit yes... maybe? I haven't been able to get a clear answer. It may have to be adjudicated by your GM.

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♣♠Magic♦♥ wrote:
Bard Archaeologist archetype.

It so badly wants to be Indy, but I just don't buy Indy being a 3/4 BAB caster. Maybe I'm being too picky.

Depending on the campaign, try Blades Above and Below instead. I'm not familiar with Wrath of the Righteous' bestiary, but if one of you can manage to match the size of your enemies, it saves you the Combat Expertise feat tax. Otherwise get Combat Expertise from method 2 of your wayfinder resonance.

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I'd like to see your take on an Indiana Jones inspired character. Preferably a non-caster, though I could see him with a great UMD.

There are also corner cases where certain abilities are only represented by particular classes. Treating unarmed attacks as both natural and manufactured, for instance, is only available to Monks and Brawlers (to my knowledge). So if you want to combine IUS with any weapon abilities you best dip into one of those classes.

Frequently you also dip just to match a character's abilities to the idea you have in your head. None of the single class progressions match my vision of an Indiana Jones character, for instance. They have a Bard archetype that seems custom made for it, but I think Bard is a terrible chassis for Indy. So an Indy character for me might end up a Fighter/Vigilante/Swashbuckler/Brawler.

Yeah, it can be a little fiddly and requires a healthy amount of system mastery to take wing, but it can add real power to the class that makes it around on par with full prepared casters. It's still no Razmiran Priest though.

Mostly I just like the flavor of it. I already love the feel of the Oracle, this just adds a bit of verve.

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Bonded Mount from the Nature Mystery is a Mount class feature. Should qualify just fine.

I'm less conversant in the details of PFS legality, but here are my suggestions.

Your biggest issues are being severely feat constrained (isn't it everyone's?) and falling out of the sky on fly skill checks. I'd focus on cheap items that can give you skill bonuses like Ioun stones for your Griffon. This page is a good start, but it isn't vetted for PFS.

Skip IUS and just get a Perfectionist Shavtoosh, it gives IUS as a slotless item.

I'd never take armor proficiency for a flying mount. You either have options which reduce ACP to 0, or you're looking at not being able to fly at all with medium and heavy armor.

Also double check if saddles take up the belt slot. I seem to remember they do.

Honestly Monstrous Mount and Mastery is a complete trap. I think you're better off just getting Air Walk as a spell known and maybe digivolve your Horse into a Genie-touched Companion Horse from the recent Qadira splatbook. If you pick the Air Genie-touch Horse, it can even cast its own Air Walk as an SLA.

With a Griffon you have a fly speed of 40 ft and you're constantly under threat of straight up falling out of the sky. With an Air Walk-ing Horse your movespeed is higher and you don't have to make fly checks. With an Air Walk-ing Shissah (a breed of horse from the same Qadira splatbook), the Thoroughbred trait, Totem Spirit, Quah Bond, and Totem Beast Stag you can get a land movespeed ~90 ft that also works in the air with no fly checks. I don't know how much of that is PFS legal though.

Advanced Class Guide pg. 106 wrote:
At 4th level, she adds the bonded spirit’s spirit magic spells to her oracle spells known for that day, but only of spell levels she can cast.

You get the spells from your spirit as a function of the archetype itself. You don't get the prepared spells from the Arcane Enlightenment hex of the Lore spirit, you have no prepared spell slots.

A corner case would be if you take Versatile Spontaneity.

With Versatile Spontaneity a spontaneous caster such as an Oracle can prepare spells, which is the only impediment to them otherwise using the Arcane Enlightenment hex. Just keep in mind Wisdom counts for Charisma in Hexes and vice versa, so the text becomes

Arcane Enlightenment (Su): The shaman’s native intelligence grants her the ability to tap into arcane lore. The shaman can add a number of spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list equal to her Wisdom modifier (minimum 1) to the list of shaman spells she can prepare. To cast these spells she must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell’s level, but the saving throw DCs of these spells are based on her Charisma rather than Intelligence. When she casts these spells, they are treated as divine rather than arcane. Each time the shaman gains a level after taking this hex, she can choose to replace one of these spells for a new spell on the wizard/sorcerer spell list.

Further, you'll also need the spells either on a scroll (which gets expended) or in a spellbook- per the rules of Versatile Spontaneity.

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Hmm, this is in the same book as the Create Armaments spell. So if you want to make an adamantine full plate, your options are
1) spend 1 minute casting a spell and an equal value in diamonds with a representative bit of adamant
2) spend 9? days preparing 3 spells with this boon in your spellbook
3) spend a few years making weekly craft checks

Not being a spellcaster really blows in this game.

Cevah wrote:
The FAQ does not care about trading class features. It is about if one class feature is the same as another irrespective of name.
The FAQ wrote:
Example: The archer (fighter) archetype gets several abilities (such as "expert archer") which replace weapon training and do not otherwise refer to the weapon training ability. Therefore, this ability does not count as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training (such as gloves of dueling). This is the case even for the "expert archer," ability which has a bonus that improves every 4 fighter levels, exactly like weapon training.

The FAQ quite explicitely does care about trading class features.

Cevah wrote:

Since the Spirit Guide Oracle only gets one hex, the Spirit Whisperer Wizard actually gets more hexes, not fewer. Not sure why you think the Spirit Guide gets additional hexes.

The Spirit Hex class feature grants a hex every so many levels. That is all it does. Therefore, by the FAQ, it is equivalent to the Hex class feature, and Extra Hex is available.

A Spirit Guide Oracle only gets one hex per day. A Spirit Whisperer only gets 3 hexes per character. If Hexes were spells, the Spirit Guide Oracle is like an Arcanist with one prepared slot but a fairly diverse spellbook. The Spirit Whisperer Wizard is like a Sorcerer with only 3 hexes known.

Or are you trying to argue that a Spirit Guide who takes Life Link one day can never gain access to Erosion Curse the next day. Or Battle Ward the next. Or Bone Lock the next. That's four hexes in as many days. 4>3. In a month a Spirit Guide may have gained 10x as many hexes as the Spirit Whisperer.

Cevah wrote:


That equivalency must go both ways....

No. There is no standard of equivalency. This is just like saying Life Oracles don't get channel. This level of pedantry is the reason the channel is channel is channel rule had to be spelled out so explicitely in the first place. Bonded Spirit does not equal Hex any more than Revelations equal Channel Energy, or Domains equal Rage.

Isabelle Lee wrote:

Personally, I'd say yes to the first and no to the second.

For hexes, the stargazer picks from the witch list (with access to the heavens shaman's hexes as well). But for revelations, they don't get to make their own selections from a list - they're simply handed specific revelations that both happen to come from the same list. (It's the same reason that a non-heavens oracle with the stargazer archetype can't use Extra Revelation to pick heavens mystery revelations.)

(Disclaimer: I haven't read the rest of the thread or familiarized myself with the arguments being made. I'm just here to opine on stuff I wrote, as usual.)

I agree- if a Stargazer tried to take Extra Revelation there'd be no list of revelations for them to pick an extra from.

But an analagous question I feel would be- can a Stargazer take Abundant Revelations to be able to use Star Chart an additional time per day.

My stance would be yes.

(Edit: first post cut off part of my reply to cevah. Fixed)

Maybe I'm having a brainfart but what does the Efficient Creator boon from the Last Azlanti's Analects actually do?

Human Expert Archer
1 Additional Traits (Roving Range, Heirloom Weapon)
Bonus Point Blank Shot
3 Precise Shot
5 Rapid Shot
7 Deadly Aim

Use Masterwork Transformation on the Heirloom Weapon before enchanting it. There's nothing really interesting about this character except using traits instead of a weapon proficiency feat.

Human Aristocrat Squad Builder

Choose an Animal Companion or Familiar. A familiar can come online as soon as level 1 and switch over to utility casting at level 7 for an investment of ony 1 trait and 2 feats, but it's more fragile. An Animal Companion can come online by level 7 for 3 feats, but is hardier and can take teamwork feats.

The key to the build though, is that Flagbearer is probably the single most powerful feat with a full team that doesn't already get morale bonuses.

Additional Traits (Dirty Fighter, House of Green Mothers Pupil)
Nature Soul
Animal Ally
Boon Companion
Blades Above and Below
Familiar Bond
Improved Familiar

Cevah wrote:
Entryhazard wrote:
Cevah wrote:

Thanks for the link.

The witch class feature gives one hex for every N levels. So does the Shaman. The spirit guide only gives a single hex.

The witch hex class feature only gives hexes. The shaman hex class feature only gives hexes.

The spirit guide has a class feature that gives a single hex and a bunch of other non-hex stuff. I don't think, as a class feature, it is equivalent to the witch or shaman class feature. Yes, the hex works the same way, but the spirit guide never gets another hex from the feature no matter how many levels are taken, unlike the other classes.

This is why I don't think it is equivalent.


This is like saying that the Dragoon Fighter does not have Weapon Training

The Dragoon Fighter has Spear Training. It gives a weapon group, just like weapon training. It advances every few levels just like weapon training.

There is a FAQ on this:
If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability.

It then goes on to show how Spear Training is Weapon Training.

Bonded Spirit does not work like Hex.
Bonded Spirit does not mandate a specific choice of Hex.
Bonded Spirit gives a bunch of stuff, which happen to include a single hex.
Bonded Spirit is therefore not the Hex class feature.

Since the Extra Hex feat requires you have the class feature, not just a hex, you cannot use Bonded Spirit to get it.


You're not wrong, assuming that FAQ works like that. It could under some readings, but I generally avoid quoting it because it causes interpretation problems of its own.

It specifically says the Dragoon Fighter gets weapon training for reasons, and that the Archer Fighter does not for different reasons. But what about the Unarmed Fighter? Their rationale for excluding the Archer should mean the Unarmed Fighter doesn't get weapon training. It trades multiple things for weapon training and does not refer to his weapon training bonus. Their rationale for including the Dragoon Fighter means it does get weapon training. Hell it's even called weapon training in the archetype.

So that particular FAQ manages to be arbitrary and self-contradicting even within the one class it pulls its examples from. But the real problem with it is it's explicitely talking about limitations with trading away base class features with an archetype, not gaining new features from other classes with an archetype. These are not equivalent scenarios. Archetypes lack the verbosity of base classes, and when they gain features, they often don't have the language you seem to be looking for.

Take the Spirit Whisperer Wizard. It gets hexes as a class feature too. It ultimately gains access to fewer hexes than the Spirit Guide Oracle, but it has the benefit of having up to 3 at a time. By your reasoning should the Spirit Whisperer qualify for Extra Hex? This ultimately is the other problem with using the FAQ you quoted this way. It encourages trying to judge the trade the archetype made as if we were bartering.

Does an Oracle get Hexes? Yes. Then they have Hexes. Did they get it through a class feature? Yes. Then they have Hexes through a class feature. You're not arguing that Life Link or Erosion Curse aren't Hexes, or that a Spirit Guide Oracle can't take them (albeit one at a time). You're trying to argue that they didn't get enough of the feature to qualify, by the same contrarian logic that tries to argue that their channel isn't good enough for channel feats because it has a different name and different limitations.

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So Improved Spell Sharing (Teamwork) functionally allows me to regain Share Spells, since you're only ever targeting yourself- assuming the use of a saddle that shares teamwork feats or a class feature to do the same.

Totem Beast Mouse aspect can even get back the evasion and improved evasion that was traded away.

Use of the Perfectionist Shavtoosh as a slotless item can get it Improved Unarmed Strike, which is a great way to open a lot of options given its limited HD and feats.

Is there any way for the companion to gain improved uncanny dodge? Or any other good corner cases to give it features that might keep it alive or relevant past level 10? I'm looking for good bang for your buck, preferably applicable to a horse (mount).

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Cevah wrote:

The Spirit Guide Oracle does not get the Hex class feature. They get the Bonded Spirit class feature, and it gives them only one hex.

Both Extra Hex and Spirit Talker require the Hex class feature, so are not available.

The channel is channel rule (please link) should not apply, since the oracle only gets a single hex, not several over levels. The Bonded Spirit class feature does so much else, like spells known, that it is no way even close to a Hex class feature.


Channel is channel is channel. It doesn't matter specifically what the name of the feature is, nor how deeply it's nested in other class features. What matters is are you functionally given a channel as a class feature.

Technically Oracles get a Mystery class feature, which contains a Revelation class feature, which may contain a Channel class feature, which may not be identical to Cleric Channel Energy, but those differences only matter if you're specifically trying to read things from an exclusionary and contrarian point of view.

They get Channel as a class feature so they can take Channel feats.

Even the fact the feature is contained in a larger feature doesn't matter, nor is it being a limited resource. Rage domain Clerics get Rage. It's a daily limited resource and encapsulated in a class feature that does other things (domains). Even the fact that the rules are different for the particular feature doesn't matter. Animal Companions can have drastically different rules from class to class and archetype to archetype, but they're all animal companions. Even the class feature restriction itself can be a grey area as Boon companion is intended to be compatible with Animal Ally.

Spirit Guide Oracles get hexes as a class feature. Heck, they can also get Channel from the Life spirit, so the rule comes full circle. The question is the details of how they qualify or are affected by particular feats that are written with caveats of ambiguous meaning RAI.

How does the HD advancement using Summon Guardian Spirit work on Tidepool Dragons and Faerie Dragons since they are casters?

Here's the link to the template

Daw wrote:
Hushed, the targets connection to the spirit is through the Shaman.

Though now that I think about it, this answer could cause some real problems more broadly with party or companion coordination. A Shaman should take the Battle Spirit to be a 9th level caster that permanently gives the melee extra feats and combat buffs, or with Animal Ally just buffs their companion. Just as an example.

While I find both answers compelling, they are different answers and it still doesn't address the issue of Life Link.

A Shaman with Life as their primary spirit could Imbue Hex Life Link- does this mean whatever target they imbued the hex to could use it indefinitely as long as the termination conditions weren't met? In this example the Shaman never loses their connection to their spirit to address Daw's answer and Life Link has a finite but indefinite duration to address ArmchairDM.

I'm leaning towards yes, even though it seems like it could allow some abusable corner cases.

Daw wrote:
The ability comes from the Spirit, not from the Shaman. Sever the connection with the spirit, and the spirit stops providing ANY of the ability. Why would it?

Then what does Imbue Hex do? The target has no requirement of a connection with a spirit at all.

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