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I don't need a rule that says "how" they are denied the ability. I have a rule that says they can't "use" the ability. That's it.
"Have" and "use" mean different things. Nothing states the ability is removed, only that it is unavailable.
Regarding using/limiting the combo, I totally understand why a DM would. I would leave Heighten alone. The "problem" as I see it are Mount's duration and getting SLA normally unavailable.
The SLA seems pretty easy. Either just make the SM/SNA rules part of the general conjuration (summoning) rules (most summoning spells reference those spells anyway), or just add that line to ASM itself.
The duration issue would either require ASM to have its own duration, or maybe just removing Mount from being eligible (make it a conjuration (creation) spell that makes a horse-like being of force, for ex).
I don't know that I would institute any changes, because most people I play with wouldn't abuse the crap out of it, and it could be fun if kept toned down. I have seen people talking about using it with Sorcerer to increase their flexibility, and that's a cool take on it I like a lot.
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So...
The idea of the OP is to get around the SM rules...
A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them. Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish).
Let us say it works...
The Glabrezu can now Summon other Demons (that are not under the players control), then Teleport away so it can't here any requests the player makes. Sounds like a good plan to me.
I have a bigger issue with applying a metamagic feat, Heighten Spell in this case, more than once to a single spell.
Can you extend, extend, extend, extend, extend mage armor for 6 hrs/CL?
I'm of the opinion you cannot, thus you cannot heighten mount (x8).
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I have a bigger issue with applying a metamagic feat, Heighten Spell in this case, more than once to a single spell.
Can you extend, extend, extend, extend, extend mage armor for 6 hrs/CL?
I'm of the opinion you cannot, thus you cannot heighten mount (x8).
And I'm of the informed opinion that you did not read Heighten Spell. My opinion qualifies as informed because your post appears to completely misstate how Heighten Spell works resulting in an interpretation that defies the very point of the feat.
You can cast spells as if they were a higher level.
Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level.
Level Increase: The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
Therefore, you are only applying Heighten Spell to Mount once, with the level increase being + an amount to make the spell equal to spell of it's effective level. So if you wish to cast a Mount Spell Heightened to be a 9th level spell, the Level increase would be +8.
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I have a bigger issue with applying a metamagic feat, Heighten Spell in this case, more than once to a single spell.
Can you extend, extend, extend, extend, extend mage armor for 6 hrs/CL?
I'm of the opinion you cannot, thus you cannot heighten mount (x8).
In case Anzyr didn't convince you, here is the FAQ:
"Heighten Spell is worded poorly and can be confusing. It lets you use a higher-level spell slot for a spell, treating the spell as if it were naturally a higher level spell than the standard version. Unlike Still Spell, which always adds +1 to the level of the spell slot used for a spell, Heighten Spell lets you decide increase a spell's level anywhere from +1 to +9, using a spell slot that is that many spell levels higher than the normal spell"
The Glabrezu can now Summon other Demons (that are not under the players control), then Teleport away so it can't here any requests the player makes. Sounds like a good plan to me.
Ahem..
serves willingly and well
Anzyr didn't convince me, though I appreciate the effort.
The FAQ did, however, and I thank you both. TIL.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Just because someone disagrees with a clear rule, doesn't mean it's not clear
I'm sure you have had many situations where you felt the rule was clear and others disagreed including the PDT with a FAQ.
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So if we drop out the swarms, the Summon * spells, and the Conjure * spells and the spells that don't summon any creatures, we have:
- Elemental Bombardment
- Elemental Swarm
- Mount
3 spells.
Spells _Ozy_ believes they would be making major mistakes not thinking about when writing this spell Alter Summoned Monster.
Considering how long it took me to compile the list and prune it down to 3 spells, I don't think these spells were though of when making ASM.
I also think the name of ASM leans toward Summon * being in mind when the spell with written.
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Nope, summoned creatures can't use their summoning ability. That's in the overall conjuration-summoning rules, and not limited to the SM spells.
OK. But will you concede that it could Teleport away?
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job it was would have better databases and tools to call up potential areas of conflicts in less then a few minutes.
Considering they used more restrictive language in the Augment Summoning feat
Summon * spells, there are several Summon * spells that still provide a significant boost to duration
Any one of these, heightened, would...
multiple creatures per 9th level spell
I've never heard they have databases like what you say, they have things like templates to make NPC/Monster stat blocks and other tools.
I've previously responded to "any summon spell". Ultimate Magic came out in 2012 and Summoned Monster Handbook in 2015. So I'm asserting they may have been aware of Conjure Black Pudding and attempting to include it with a more broad selection.
I don't have a problem with a Summon spell with a boosted duration.
I have a problem with using a heightened lower level spell and using the heightened level.
I also have a lesser issue with replacing one but not all summoned monsters with a different monster. Something if heighten worked, you could heighten SMIII to 9th and turn the 1d4+1 eagles into Glabrezu one at a time.
The Glabrezu can now Summon other Demons (that are not under the players control), then Teleport away so it can't here any requests the player makes. Sounds like a good plan to me.Ahem..
serves willingly and well
Double ahem
serve you as a mount.
So it only serves you for mount related tasks. Glabby will grapple you, and carry you.
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Perhaps it would be "cleaner" if ASM targeted the spell being altered rather than the creature and turned it into a Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally of the same level. Some potentially interesting options would be lost, but some arguments could be avoided too. I guess that would just be for the realm of "house rules" though since the RAW is clearly rather different.
@Ozy - Actually, your trick to summon 1d4+1 monsters from a lower level list and then transform them to monsters from the higher level list seems pretty significant to me.
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heightened spell is the problem, there are other 9th level spells that would do the job almost as well, such as Elemental Swarm.
you could just use a SMIX spell to summon multiple SMVII creatures, and then replace them one at a time with SMIX creatures.
Heighten is my biggest problem with this, yea.
Your SMIX for SMVII example isn't something I noticed. Yea good example.
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Sure. But if someone rules that they can't use it because they don't have it, how could you say that they're wrong? Since the rules don't define 'how' someone can't use their ability, ruling that it's because they no longer have it is as good a reason as any other.Better, in fact, than invoking some nebulous 'can't use it' mechanic that doesn't actually exist.
Easy, because spells do what they say, and no more. That has long been a guideline for all discussions of rules.
The rule says it can't use the ability. So it can't. Nothing says it completely loses the ability. So it doesn't.
That was very simple.
The mechanic does exist. There is a line in a spell effect that says it can't use the ability. There is your mechanic.
Same as the effect of Fly says you can fly, without providing explanation on how you achieve lift. Further explanation is unnecessary.
So it only serves you for mount related tasks. Glabby will grapple you, and carry you.
No, because (AGAIN) there is nothing limiting your Glabrezu "mount" from doing other things. Just like nothing limits your horse mount from doing other things.
There is no restriction anywhere that will limit your summoned creature to carrying you and nothing else.
As an aside, and I doubt it will necessarily sway anyone's opinion, but look at the Monster Universal Ability, Summon.
A creature with the summon ability can summon other specific creatures of its kind much as though casting a summon monster spell, but it usually has only a limited chance of success (as specified in the creature’s entry). Roll d%: On a failure, no creature answers the summons. Summoned creatures automatically return whence they came after 1 hour. A creature summoned in this way cannot use any spells or spell-like abilities that require material components costing more than 1 gp unless those components are supplied, nor can it use its own summon ability for 1 hour. An appropriate spell level is given for each summoning ability for purposes of Will saves, caster level checks, and concentration checks. No experience points are awarded for defeating summoned monsters.
It is much clearer here that while access to the abilities are lost, the abilities themselves are not. The summoned creature cannot use "it's own" summon ability.
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The prohibition you are citing is part of the rules for the Summon Special Ability... not for Conjuration (Summoning) spells. It has no effect on Conjuration (Summoning) spells (which is one of the reasons Summoning spells have a similar prohibition).
So a creature summoned by Mount can still use its Summon Ability, but the creatures it summoned with said ability cannot.
Where this shennanigan falls apart is in the interpretation of the Heighten Spell Feat.
The only thing the Heighten Spell Feat does is change the effective level of the spell for the purposes of Spell Save DC's. It changes NO other affects of the spell. It's sole function is to buff up the saving throw DC's of spells such as fireball, or charm person, or slay living. It does not affect things such as the 10 die cap of fireball, or lightning bolt. (That would require the additional use of the intensify feat which would raise the spell another level without boostng it's DC.) The use of it here is so far beyond the pale that to insult the Paizo devs for not anticipating this is unreasonable at the very least.
A Heightened Summon Monster 1 is still Summon Monster 1 no matter what spell level you hike it up to. A Heightened Mount is still just a Mount spell.
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Where this shennanigan falls apart is in the interpretation of the Heighten Spell Feat.
The only thing the Heighten Spell Feat does is change the effective level of the spell for the purposes of Spell Save DC's. It changes NO other affects of the spell. It's sole function is to buff up the saving throw DC's of spells such as fireball, or charm person, or slay living. It does not affect things such as the 10 die cap of fireball, or lightning bolt. (That would require the additional use of the intensify feat which would raise the spell another level without boostng it's DC.) The use of it here is so far beyond the pale that to insult the Paizo devs for not anticipating this is unreasonable at the very least.
A Heightened Summon Monster 1 is still Summon Monster 1 no matter what spell level you hike it up to. A Heightened Mount is still just a Mount spell.
None of that matters.
ASM doesn't care about the effect of the original spell, only its level. And Heighten Spell changes the spell level for "all effects dependent on spell level."
Yes, all a 9th level Mount spell can do is summon a horse. But it is still 9th level.
There is nothing different in this than the fact that Heightening Magic Missile to 5th level prevents a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability from stopping it. Both instances are based on the level, not the effect, of the Heightened spell.
The prohibition you are citing is part of the rules for the Summon Special Ability... not for Conjuration (Summoning) spells. It has no effect on Conjuration (Summoning) spells (which is one of the reasons Summoning spells have a similar prohibition).
So a creature summoned by Mount can still use its Summon Ability, but the creatures it summoned with said ability cannot.
I think you missed my point. I was not arguing this would apply to the Mount spell.
I was using it to support the idea that summoned creatures still have those abilities, even if they can't use them.So if you summon them with a spell that doesn't have the prohibition, then they can use the ability.
So you see, we agree.
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Where this shennanigan falls apart is in the interpretation of the Heighten Spell Feat.
The only thing the Heighten Spell Feat does is change the effective level of the spell for the purposes of Spell Save DC's. It changes NO other affects of the spell.
This is simply wrong. Not just wrong, but outright in contradiction to the text of the feat:
A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level.
The spell is treated as its new level for all purposes.
So a partial list of effects that Heighten has would include:
* Increased saving throw DC
* Increased ability to penetrate the various globes of invulnerability
* Increased ability to override lower-level light and darkness spells
* Increased ability to recharge a rod of absorption (or, alternatively, to not be absorbed because the rod doesn't have enough capacity left)
* Modified behavior w.r.t. a lavender and green ellipsoid ioun stone (as with the rod above).
* Modified behavior w.r.t the spell turning spell (or similar effects, as with the rod/stone above)
* Increased healing when dispelled by a mythic dispel magic
* Increased damage when subject to a damnation spell
* Increased powerup for a deathwine spell
... and, of course, we can add to that an interaction with alter summoned monster.
So it only serves you for mount related tasks. Glabby will grapple you, and carry you.No, because (AGAIN) there is nothing limiting your Glabrezu "mount" from doing other things. Just like nothing limits your horse mount from doing other things.
There is no restriction anywhere that will limit your summoned creature to carrying you and nothing else.
Sorry man, we're either playing "Follow RAW exactly" or not. It's only function is to be mounted and to serve as a mount, if you need me to define that I'll be factious about why you didn't use Summon Monster # because those descriptions are different and the Mount spell functions differently to the others.
Specific always trumps general.
You have a funny looking demon for a horse now, yes it can cast wish but horses don't typically cast wish as part of their function [citation needed] as overland beasts of burden.
Paladin's mounts aren't summoned creatures, they are 100% legit material creatures that can be teleported to you like a summon.
But that's neither here nor there. If a horse could cast wish I would have already fait'd this to work.
I'd like you to find a GM bonkers enough to not imagine this otherwise. Are you wishing to fight the local kingdoms peasant railgun?
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Sorry man, we're either playing "Follow RAW exactly" or not.
Great, then point to the part of Mount that says anything about how your summoned horse can't attack, or be used as a pack animal, or anything else you could do with a 100% mundane horse you purchased.....
Wait, its not there? What do you know, it isn't.
You can have the horse summoned by Mount attack enemies. You would need a skill check, but that's because its an untrained horse, not because of anything in the Mount spell.
Once it isn't a horse, but an intelligent creature, you can just communicate your desires to your willing servant, and they will do the best they can to accomplish them.
Peasant railgun actually doesn't work. It involves applying physics to rules, which unfortunately doesn't apply as there are no rules for physics in Pathfinder.
Of course you'd want to debunk the railgun asap because it breaks the game, there isn't exact physiscs rules in pathfinder- but why do we have gravity? How come light is so fast? Why doesn't the ocean overflow when it rains? By assuming the world works like ours we also assume that the physics works like ours. The rules are only there to help mechanically emulate the world, they're not there to be the world. That doesn't stop pesant railguns, bag of holding arrows or infinate wish loops or all those other nasty things people try to bring into the game.
If you start becoming hyper-literal with the rules you get all sorts of weird and nonsensical stuff happening. My personal favourite
Weapon Familiarity: Orcs are always proficient with greataxes and falchions, and treat any weapon with the word “orc” in its name as a martial weapon.
Sorcerers rays are considered weapons by Weapon Focus, Orcs can use sorcerers as weapons. Like giant fleshy humanshaped wands that they point at whatever they want to blast.
And I think someone has already mentioned that greatswords aren't made of metal, theres no pants in the game and there not being any rules to sleeping, so in a muddy ditch with rocks for pillows is just as refreshing as a 100gp per night silk and egyptian cotton chateau. But don't you dare try to sleep wearing that cow skin or breast plate or else you'll be fatigued!
But this, this edge case in particular where someone is trying to apply a spell from 2015 to a spell from 2011 with a feat from 2009. The Mount spell is described differently from the other spells and I think that it should reflect that difference in how this theory craft would pan out. So far the rebuttal has been "Nah man, it works just like the other summon spells!" raises some disagreement and disingenuousness.
There are no rules to support what youre saying.
I dunno, we must be reading different spells or something 'cause that's all I've been extrapolating from.
Sleeping in a breastplate would be very uncomfortable, much more than sleeping in mud or on stonework, as you would have inconsistent levels of hardness and the edge of the armor in your side all night.
Okay, I think you missed the concept of what I was saying. At the point you argue sleeping in rocky mud is better than armour there's really nothing else to discuss. I didn't think understanding physics had to be employed to explain why it wouldn't be a place to sleep at all but that's just me assuming it isn't magical +3 mud of slumber.
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You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.Nice pop culture reference, you are Vizzini and I'm Inigo Montoya.
Heigthen makes a spell couns as a higher level. A heigthened mount would count as a 9th level spell. What issues do you have with that?
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Indeed. That's about as RAW as you can get.Yet like in all FAQ of old, there are two people saying different interpretations are RAW. In hundreds of examples only one of the two were right.
Ok here is the order of things.
Cast mount heightened to 9th level. It now counts as a 9th level spell.
Cast alter summon monster on the mount.
Alter summon monster checks for level sees 9 and gives you the 9th level spell options as choices.
(iffy stuff about wishes)
Where in the above is it not RAW?
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Read this, it's been post previously. Or is it fun to rehash things 100 times until everyone is so frustrated the thread gets locked?
I honestly don't understand.
Edit: if you'd like this resolved, make a new thread. Research all previous threads of this topic. That needs to be at least a dozen or more. Bonus points if the previous threads got locked or moderated. Detail all the likely unintended interactions like mount and elemental bombardment and swarm. Ask a super short question in bold. Get 30+ FAQ clicks. Wait 1 week to 18 months.