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Actually we can, if you'd read up on the deity your trying to justify having have a non-evil follower of.
Socothbenoth appeals to deviants of all kinds, although his own tastes run toward the most violent or debauched varieties as do many of his followers.And you're wrong, Belief and mindset DEFINITELY affect your character's Alignment, since that's how you decide your actions. If your character genuinely believes children should be eaten they're Evil.Yeah and Sarenrae is all about redemption, temperance, and patience and yet there's those Dawnflower guys over yonder still getting cleric powers despite redeeming people via pyres and swords primarily.
Also, mindset may define actions, but its still actions at the end of the day that determine alignment. Paladins don't fall for evil thoughts, they fall for evil actions. Aligned thoughts cause you to temporarily ping as the thought, but never actually shift you.
Unless you're mindless, your thoughts determine your actions. You don't think about doing anything evil (by the systems determination, not your character's determination of Evil), you don't usually do anything evil.
It's less character philosophy and more me sorta wondering who's the guy who says what is or isn't too tame for Soc. You can say getting your jollies through noise marine tier music isn't extreme enough just as I can say reverse that and say rape isn't extreme enough either and neither person can prove one way or another which is more debauched leaving a pointless circular argument.If your character thinks Rape isn't that debauched and "anyone" can do that and wants to top it, they're Evil.
1) Socethbenoth says what is or isn't too tame for him.
2) Rape is an extremely evil act. There's no debating that. None. If you're character doesn't think it's evil, your character is Evil.
Yeah, Socethbenoth says what is or isn't tame for him. The fact that, RAW, you can play a CN cleric of Soc means that, obviously, it's possible to worship him without devolving into Evil. Just like it's possible to worship Norgober, or Asmodeus, or any other kind of Evil diety. You don't get to decide that, the game does, and the game says it's a-ok.
Not to mention, he's not the Demon lord of RAPE, as you like to say, he's the demon lord of "perversion, pride and taboos". And you can be pretty prideful and taboo breaking without being evil
No the rules do not say you can be a CN worshipper of Socethbenoth, it says you can (if you completely divorce everything except the letters form your decision) be within one step of alignment. That does mean these hypothetical followers even exist or are possible.
Read his writeup, not his portfolio, he's the demon lord of Rape.
I DID read his writeup, from Book of Chaos Vol 2. Do you know how many times rape is mentioned in that write up?
Zero. There's absolutely no mention of rape there, anywhere at all. Nothing. Zilch. Nada. Is it implied? Yeah, sure, it's implied, just like its implied with Nocticula (who you've already said would be fine for a CN deity.)
Besides, the sentence you posted kind of defeats your point. He appeals to deviants of all kinds, not just the worst of them.
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There's "implying", and then there's "beating you over the head with".
As a demon lord of perverse desires it is no surprise that Socothbenoth has bedded countless lovers (some would say victims)
Worshippers: Sexual criminals.
And he appeals to deviants, but he prefers violent and debauched.
He's the Demon Lord of Rape.
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Unless you're mindless, your thoughts determine your actions. You don't think about doing anything evil (by the systems determination, not your character's determination of Evil), you don't usually do anything evil.There's a fine quote from Skyrim from Parthunax along the lines of "Is it better to be born good or overcome your evil nature through great discipline?"
Parth makes it abundantly clear that like all dragons he feels the desire to dominate and destroy but he overcomes those thoughts and in turn aids you. So is Parth evil because deep down he's just as murderous as all the other dragons or is he N (or even G depending on how generous the GM feels) because he's overcome his nature and is working to save the world?
He's Good, or at least Nuetral, because he's actively fighting against those evil thoughts.
The examples you listed previously were people who embraced but didn't actively act on their thoughts.
There's "implying", and then there's "beating you over the head with".
As a demon lord of perverse desires it is no surprise that Socothbenoth has bedded countless lovers (some would say victims)Worshippers: Sexual criminals.
And he appeals to deviants, but he prefers violent and debauched.
He's the Demon Lord of Rape.
No, again, he's the Demon Lord of "perversion, pride and taboos". That includes rape, sure, but it's not exclusively rape, not even close.
And, again, he prefers violent and debauched, that does not mean he won't accept people who aren't at the extreme end of those spectrums.
Not to mention "debauchery" isn't evil, it just means "extreme indulgence in sexuality" which can be evil nor not.
As an aside, I am curious what Soc writeup you're referencing, since that sentence also doesn't appear in the only one I could find (Note: I don't mean you're lying, I'm actually genuinely curious because it may mean I'm GASP missing a sourcebook).
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"He likes rape but he's not eclusive about it"
That doesn't mean he's not the Demon Lord of Rape.
And debauchery doesn't mean evil on its own no, but when you combine with it violence, and a Chaotic Evil Demon Lord, it's definitely the Evil kind of debauchery.
I got it from the PathfinderWiki, I'll look through the sources to doublecheck.
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And if he hasn't acted on them, what is his grand cosmic crime that would condemn him to the lower planes? Someone can absolutely want to murder his neighbor but doesn't go through with it for any myriad of reason ranging from cowardice to the lawful half of his alignment saying murder is against the law, and I believe that without acting upon it, he's going to stay neutral in a vacuum of no other deeds.
Last I checked anyway, Pathfinder cosmology doesn't work by punishing/rewarding people based on beliefs but how they lived their lives.
Yes, and your thoughts are a part of your life. If you want to, actually want to, murder your neighbor but don't because of legal repercussions, you're evil and lawful.
If you have a stray thought that pops up but you dismiss it then that's not an example of your alignment, but if it's your constant thought process and mindset all the time then it determines your alignment.
Your thoughts control your actions, unless your mindless or controlled by something. You don't think about doing evil or have evil impulses, then you don't do evil things.
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Then we have a fundamental disconnect on alignment. Nothing more really to be said in that regard. You say beliefs determine alignment, I say deeds.And if he hasn't acted on them, what is his grand cosmic crime that would condemn him to the lower planes? Someone can absolutely want to murder his neighbor but doesn't go through with it for any myriad of reason ranging from cowardice to the lawful half of his alignment saying murder is against the law, and I believe that without acting upon it, he's going to stay neutral in a vacuum of no other deeds.
Last I checked anyway, Pathfinder cosmology doesn't work by punishing/rewarding people based on beliefs but how they lived their lives.
Yes, and your thoughts are a part of your life. If you want to, actually want to, murder your neighbor but don't because of legal repercussions, you're evil and lawful.
If you have a stray thought that pops up but you dismiss it then that's not an example of your alignment, but if it's your constant thought process and mindset all the time then it determines your alignment.
Your thoughts control your actions, unless your mindless or controlled by something. You don't think about doing evil or have evil impulses, then you don't do evil things.
Actually I'm of "Thoughts determine actions determine alignment" but you're correct, there's a fundamental disconnect between us on alignment. No point in continuing this argument.
I think a lot of the "be within one step of your deities alignment" stuff falls apart when you're talking about some of the CE deities.
A lot of the time throughout the history of this brand, Chaotic Evil is a stand in for "extra evil." 4e might have been on to something when it conflated NG and CG into "Good" and LE and NE into "Evil" leaving the top left and bottom right corners alone.
It's a completely valid house rule to say that you can't be a neutral follower of a Chaotic Evil deity. N follower of NE or LN follower of LE? That's justifiable, but not a CN follower of CE. If a player really wants to be edgy and play devil's advocate, Asmodeus or Norgorber are valid choices with justifiable portfolios. As for NPCs, the GM controls all of those so you can just say "nope, there are no non-evil followers of Cthuhu or Rovagug; if there were the true believers would kill them for lack-of-team-spirit."
"He likes rape but he's not eclusive about it"
That doesn't mean he's not the Demon Lord of Rape.
And debauchery doesn't mean evil on its own no, but when you combine with it violence, and a Chaotic Evil Demon Lord, it's definitely the Evil kind of debauchery.
I got it from the PathfinderWiki, I'll look through the sources to doublecheck.
"He likes indiscriminate murder of orcs and goblins, but he's not exclusive about it"
Does that mean Torag is the God of Orc and Goblin Genocide? Gods in Pathfinder have different spheres of influence, which is why you can worship them within one Alignment step: you pick the spheres you want to focus on that go with that alignment.
For that matter, Calistria is also about debauchery and violence, and I doubt you will find people here arguing you can't have a CN/CG cleric of Calistria.
The point still stands that you can worship Soc while being CN (because it's in the rules) while being thematic, because he does not require you do to evil deeds at all, just be a hedonist (and hedonists, while most certainly chaotic, are not evil). Much like you can be a N follower of Norgorber or a LE follower of Asmodeus. It's all in how you present it.
EDIT: a Lawful NEUTRAL follower of Asmodeus. Damn my muscle memory
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"He likes rape but he's not eclusive about it"
That doesn't mean he's not the Demon Lord of Rape.
And debauchery doesn't mean evil on its own no, but when you combine with it violence, and a Chaotic Evil Demon Lord, it's definitely the Evil kind of debauchery.
I got it from the PathfinderWiki, I'll look through the sources to doublecheck.
"He likes indiscriminate murder of orcs and goblins, but he's not exclusive about it"
Does that mean Torag is the God of Orc and Goblin Genocide? Gods in Pathfinder have different spheres of influence, which is why you can worship them within one Alignment step: you pick the spheres you want to focus on that go with that alignment.
For that matter, Calistria is also about debauchery and violence, and I doubt you will find people here arguing you can't have a CN/CG cleric of Calistria.
The point still stands that you can worship Soc while being CN (because it's in the rules) while being thematic, because he does not require you do to evil deeds at all, just be a hedonist (and hedonists, while most certainly chaotic, are not evil). Much like you can be a N follower of Norgorber or a LE follower of Asmodeus. It's all in how you present it.
EDIT: a Lawful NEUTRAL follower of Asmodeus. Damn my muscle memory
Full on gods have wide spheres of influence, but demigods are more specialized.
Calistria isn't about violence, she's about vengeance. As a CN deity of lust I'd say she vehemently abhors Rape.
And I still disagree that you can be a devout follower of Socethbenoth and not perform evil acts. Cause yes, as an Evil Diety, as a Demon Lord, he would require you to perform evil acts, otherwise you're too dilvulgent that you wouldn't be granted spells or abilities by him.
Rape is his main thing, you can't play that down.
"I worship the Silken Sin!"
"... uh, isn't he the patron god of rapists?"
"Yeah, but I focus on the non-rape stuff!"
"..."
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"No, he's the patron god of hedonists! Wanna come party?!"
That's what I'd answer, at any rate. Because I've checked the sources on PathfinderWiki, and none of them ever mention rape directly. nor the sentences you've been posting, and while I will wholeheartedly agree that "Perverts, sexual criminals, debauched cultists," worship him, they aren't actually listed anywhere as his worshippers. So, again, no, rape is not his "main thing", hedonism is
Socothbenoth is no more associated with rape than Nocticula is, or Urgathoa (matter of fact all that forced breeding Urgathoa does points way more to rape than anything Socothbenoth's writeup says). He's the demigod of perversion, pride and taboos, and you can play that as CN just as you can play LN Asmy or Zon-Kuthon and N Norgorber.
And, sorry, but how exactly is vengance not about violence? I mean yes, you can pull an Edmond Dantes and enact vengance without directly attacking anybody, but that's not what's usually meant by vengance (particularly passionate vengance).
But in all honestly we've derailed this thread more than enough, so I won't keep responding here. You're welcome to PM me or make a topic if you wish to keep debating, but I won't keep bloating this thread.
I don´t really want to step on any ones toes, but I don´t really see how the "...but you can tots play a cleric of [insert demonic manifestation here] as a non-evil character" is helping the OP with his questions.
Not that I don´t have an opinion on the current discussion. In fact I think that both sides bring up some good (and some bad) points, but i still think the discussion should get back to the original questions.
I feel like the OP's question was answered in the first post. There is a difference between enculturated bigotry and acting on such.
Unless you're playing a game that's really interested in exploring how prejudice is created and perpetuates itself, there's no problem playing a Dwarf Paladin of Ragathiel, even if you don't trade out Hatred for something else.
The side discussion is about whether certain prejudices are justified by Pathfinder's alignment system.
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Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Likewise, just because of the one-step rule you could make a CN follower of a CE deity doesn't mean any actually exist.canonically a lot of them do exist, so i think you do have to consider the possibility.
Regardless of someone's actual alignment, someone that has given their heart to an evil deity and is at least aiding and abetting evil actions. While their death rather than salvation is regrettable, they chose their fate when they have themselves over to darker powers
For some deities absolutely (Nocticula, that one alchemist demon lord whose whole things is being friendly).
CN followers of the Demon Lord of Rape? Not seeing it.
I could create one. I'm not going to, because...ick...and I dislike playing worshippers of evil deities...but I could.
It would involve someone who fetishizes and obsesses about rape, but never actually commits one. And probably loathes themself due to that "weakness".
That's the secret to devotees of evil that are not themselves evil...they are essentially craven and self-hating.
I'm going to take a shower now.
EDIT: I see now there was an entire other page of back and forth on this subject. Just ignore me, then.
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Dwarven paladins should be worshippingToragCayden anyway. Better beer.
FTFY
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Rape is evil. There is no two-ways about it. And worshipping a god of rape while somehow claiming to be non-evil is absolutely ridiculous. I'm appalled to read anyone arguing otherwise and it is frightening that there is any debate at all!
You can't use rules to get around worshipping a god of rape and think any character that does so isn't absolutely evil by simply enabling it in the first place. While the mechanical rules say it is possible, the ethical rules of each deity speaks otherwise. We have a clear divergence of expectations if someone who is CN was to worship this demon lord. You either fall out of favour with Socothbenoth because you are not performing his major philosophical belief of violent gratification by violating the safety and wellbeing of others, by raping them and torturing them, or you slip immediately into evil BECAUSE you performed the acts in the first place, even if it was to maintain your allegiance with him, or you enabled it and made yourself an accomplice to rape by being a part of his clergy.
I would like to see anyone make the argument otherwise to their DM and not have them ask you to leave, because I certainly would tell you to get out of my house and never speak to me again for even thinking of bringing such a character to my table.
I'm sorry for derailing this thread further than it has already but this genuinely has me upset to see this kind of discussion happen the way it has.
Dwarven paladins should be worshippingFTFYToragCayden anyway. Better beer.
Cayden has the MOST beer.
Torag has the best.
Big difference.
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No, I see that. What I don't see is how killing them on sight translates to a Lawful Good behaviour.
Are they undead? Are they outsiders with the evil subtype? Are they presently commiting crimes or committing deeds of evil?
Or are they just standing there, defenseless?
You should definitely investigate, and certainly be on your guard, but merely *appearing* as followers of an evil deity is not enough to attack.
Remember Batman (The Dark Knight), when Joker ties up the hostages and disguises them as criminals? Attacking on sight would attack the hostages.
This quote seems to be misleading people at my intentions.
My concern is that Lawful Good characters should be investigating suspected evildoers, not attacking people that "appear to be evil" on princible alone.
Yes, it's okay to attack followers of a rape daemon as a lawful good paladin. No, it's not okay to just attack "on sight" anyone that looks like a follower of rape daemon. Seem reasonable to expect adventurers to investigate supposed evil, rather than just assuming evil based on uniforms or (un)holy symbols (or the results of the detect evil class ability).
. Seem reasonable to expect adventurers to investigate supposed evil, rather than just assuming evil based on uniforms or (un)holy symbols (or the results of the detect evil class ability).
Its a conclusion. Not an assumption.
You can always come up with excuses not to reach a conclusion and contemplate your navel some more: in a magical world you can come up with a rationale for any action.
Look, if someone puts on the Cobra uniform, starts chanting "COBRAAA! COBRAAA! " and carries an RFID chip that puts out em waves that say "Member of Cobra: Python Level" there really is no fault on GI Joe's part when he lights them up with lots of blue lasers (because those are 25% of the battle)
A paladin always has to be right, not correct.
As a GM, I have no problem with a LG worshiper or a CG deity (or a CG worshiper of a LG deity), but I will not allow a non-evil worshiper of a CE deity. They simply do not exist in any world I am in charge of.
If you really want to take Rovagug's overrun feats, we can work out some way to get you to qualify via a trait.
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Excuse me, I don't want to be a bother but can you please stop being evil? I would kill you but that would make me fall so all I am left with is motherly nagging.
I once saw a paladin played that handed out pamphlets about 'not being evil'
He took text from a bunch of healthcare pamphlets and replaced the word 'drugs' with 'evil' - then he would hand these out to PCs and NPCs
e.g. "Do you think about doing evil more than once per day?"
"Do you find regularly doing evil is affecting your relationships with your friends and family"
"Has doing evil caused you problems in the workplace?"
"Do want to stop doing evil but don't have the willpower?"
If they ignored the pamphlets then he tended to hit them with a sword however.
If they ignored the pamphlets then he tended to hit them with a sword however.
Then he would Fall™
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. Seem reasonable to expect adventurers to investigate supposed evil, rather than just assuming evil based on uniforms or (un)holy symbols (or the results of the detect evil class ability).
Its a conclusion. Not an assumption.
You can always come up with excuses not to reach a conclusion and contemplate your navel some more: in a magical world you can come up with a rationale for any action.
Look, if someone puts on the Cobra uniform, starts chanting "COBRAAA! COBRAAA! " and carries an RFID chip that puts out em waves that say "Member of Cobra: Python Level" there really is no fault on GI Joe's part when he lights them up with lots of blue lasers (because those are 25% of the battle)
A paladin always has to be right, not correct.
At that point, they've got the uniform, they are chanting the slogan, and they have that ID, that does seem like enough to me. If the followers of some evil deity are chanting slogans for the deity, have the unforms or (un)holy symbols, AND detect as evil, then sure, that seems like enough (provided that this partical evil deity isn't offically legal in the city you are in).
But if you only have the one "on sight" aspect, I don't really think that's enough to conclude that they are a genuine member of cobra (or some other, more pathfinder related, organization). Otherwise, I'd have LG paladins attack the party every time they decided to go undercover.
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So murdock, i never saw anyone arguing that paladins are going out and killing everything that detects evil.
What I saw was people talking about Paladins of Ragathiel seeking out and destroying evil (i.e. actively marauding bandits, cultist, demons, etc.) You seem to have brought up the killing everything that pings evil point yourself.
I think a lot of the "be within one step of your deities alignment" stuff falls apart when you're talking about some of the CE deities.
A lot of the time throughout the history of this brand, Chaotic Evil is a stand in for "extra evil." 4e might have been on to something when it conflated NG and CG into "Good" and LE and NE into "Evil" leaving the top left and bottom right corners alone.
It's a completely valid house rule to say that you can't be a neutral follower of a Chaotic Evil deity. N follower of NE or LN follower of LE? That's justifiable, but not a CN follower of CE. If a player really wants to be edgy and play devil's advocate, Asmodeus or Norgorber are valid choices with justifiable portfolios. As for NPCs, the GM controls all of those so you can just say "nope, there are no non-evil followers of Cthuhu or Rovagug; if there were the true believers would kill them for lack-of-team-spirit."
Not all CE deities or demon lords would withdraw support from CN worshippers. Nocticula specifically grants spells to her CN worshippers. Her CE worshippers really hate that though.
Nocticula specifically grants spells to her CN worshippers
Nocticula in particular has that unresolved plot hook of whether she actually intends to redeem herself and become a CN goddess, or whether creating this impression is some angle she's playing.
She's one of the few CE deities that where is probably acceptable to have non-evil followers, specifically because of the idea that she's seeking to move from the Abyss next door to the Maelstrom.
Nocticula specifically grants spells to her CN worshippersNocticula in particular has that unresolved plot hook of whether she actually intends to redeem herself and become a CN goddess, or whether creating this impression is some angle she's playing.
She's one of the few CE deities that where is probably acceptable to have non-evil followers, specifically because of the idea that she's seeking to move from the Abyss next door to the Maelstrom.
I'm currently playing a Nocticula heretical worshipper in a wrath of the righteous campaign, trying to redeem Nocticula. Things got really interesting/messy when the NPC Paladins found out. It was right around the time we brought back a certain succubus who was claiming to be redeemed as well.
The crusaders did not...react well.
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Surprisingly, some of them wanted to execute the heretical worshippers but not necessarily the succubus.
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