They state explicitly that they stack with other bonuses.
You are faster than others of your race by 20 feet.
This kind of thing is why they were originally going to have a rule against hybrid/parent multiclassing.
From a balance perspective another +10 ft is no real issue. The higher your speed already is, the less relevant is a given bonus.
I think the wording of the first sentence is unfortunate. Already in Core there is at least one option to increase base speed: Being a cleric with Travel domain ('Increase your base speed by 10 feet.'). I see only one way to resolve this without contradicting barbarian's movement 'stacking with everything': Apply the barbarian's 'set to race speed + 10' first, then add the cleric's bonus. Which means the bloodrager would not stack.
But honestly, if a player wants to play a superfast PC and sacrifice some resources (e.g. class levels) for that - why not let him.
Yeah, I side with the no, since both are saying your faster than your race by 10. so having movespeed 40 when your race is 30 is faster by ten. Having 2 abilities put you to 40 doesn't mean you get to jump to 50.
If one just said that your movespeed was increased by 10 you'd be good. If it just said your speed was 10 higher than normal I'd say you're good. But it saying that your speed is 10 higher than normal for your race is setting it to a new value, not giving you a bonus.
They don't stack because they are the same ability.
The ACG states that redundant abilities don't stack. It does stack with Cinder Dance, Dance of Blades, Longstrider, Expiditious Retreat, Travel Domain... anything that isn't called "Fast Movement."
There is validity in having the same ability not stack with itself if granted from multiple sources. Having inspiration from investigator and from an archetype that get inspiration from say oracle don't stack. You have two pools, but can only use one an any given check.
A multiclassed Barbarian/Bloodrager would be extremely fast, but either his Rage or his Bloodrage ability (depending on which class he merely dips in) would not scale with level. Using up a class level for extra speed and some backup 1st level raging when your primary rage source runs out is not overpowering.
I have a Barbarian 1/Bloodrager 1/Cleric 1/Shaman 2/Ninja 3 just to be fast, and I can say with confidence that my first three levels (Barbarian/Bloodrager/Ninja) were far from overwhelming with high base land speed, and it's not getting any better at higher levels either.
It is incredibly fun to play, but just very underwhelming in overall combat effectiveness in terms of damage.
Bonuses from the same source don't stack? The source is Fast Movement. You can't have two Fast Movements any more than you could have two Uncanny Dodges.
Bonuses from the same source don't stack? The source is Fast Movement. You can't have two Fast Movements any more than you could have two Uncanny Dodges.
They both say they get it from different sources (bloodrager vs barbarian) and they both say they stack. So it would stack.
I don't think Paizo takes care to make sure no two non-identical abilities in different classes have the same name, so I don't think it's reasonable to say "they're both called Fast Movement so they're the same thing."
Note that classes with Uncanny Dodge always call out "as the rogue ability." Bloodrager Fast Movement doesn't call out "as the barbarian ability."
Bonuses from the same source don't stack? The source is Fast Movement. You can't have two Fast Movements any more than you could have two Uncanny Dodges.
Fast Movement does stack, just because they have the same name and similar wording, doesn't make it the same ability. Look at Alchemist and Investigator's Alchemy class feature. One let's you use wands, the other doesn't. Same name, different feature. These two also have different wording.
Also, uncanny dodge says getting it from another source makes turns it into improved uncanny dodge. So a Barbarian 2/Bloodrager 2 would have two separate pools of rage, +20 to their base land speed, and improved uncanny dodge.
But a Bard 1/Skald 1 would only have Bardic Knowledge applied once because they are the exact same abilities, only replacing the class name.
Just to focus things. The main counter argument against stacking, is that they both modify the humans base speed.
Like how you don't get more damage by lead blading your impact weapon. They overlap.
They are untyped bonuses to speed. Untyped bonuses always stack.
EDIT: Unless it specifically says it doesn't.
If Bardic Knowledge didn't stack you'd have to figure out whether you add half your Bard level or half your Skald level. I say it stacks fine and you add both.
But this example is not parallel because they're actually giving you different benefits ("add half bard level" vs "add half skald level") whereas the fast movements provide the same benefit.
If Bardic Knowledge didn't stack you'd have to figure out whether you add half your Bard level or half your Skald level. I say it stacks fine and you add both.
But this example is not parallel because they're actually giving you different benefits ("add half bard level" vs "add half skald level") whereas the fast movements provide the same benefit.
That first part makes sense... So I think it's fair to look into it more (I was just told that they don't stack by other players).
That second part though gets the same bonus from two different sources. If I get skill focus (diplomacy) and get the favored class bonus for diplomacy then they both provide a +3 to the skill, but they are two different sources that provide untyped bonuses, so they stack.
Just to focus things. The main counter argument against stacking, is that they both modify the humans base speed.
Like how you don't get more damage by lead blading your impact weapon. They overlap.
They are untyped bonuses to speed. Untyped bonuses always stack.
EDIT: Unless it specifically says it doesn't.
are they untyped bonuses or is it changing the base, like lead blades making the weapon count as large. now that it's counting as large impact does nothing, since it too is making it count as large.
So could fast movement, your speed is 10 faster than normal for your race. If my speed is 10 faster I am now 10 faster than normal for my race, having that ability again to be faster than normal for my race just gives me two abilities putting me to 10 faster.
If Bardic Knowledge didn't stack you'd have to figure out whether you add half your Bard level or half your Skald level. I say it stacks fine and you add both.
But this example is not parallel because they're actually giving you different benefits ("add half bard level" vs "add half skald level") whereas the fast movements provide the same benefit.
That first part makes sense... So I think it's fair to look into it more (I was just told that they don't stack by other players).
That second part though gets the same bonus from two different sources. If I get skill focus (diplomacy) and get the favored class bonus for diplomacy then they both provide a +3 to the skill, but they are two different sources that provide untyped bonuses, so they stack.
But if you get FCB from bard and FCB from skald you only get +3, because each class is making that a preferred skill for you, making you better than normal, but since you're already better than normal, the second class making you better than normal doesn't make you any better as you're already better than normal.
Just to focus things. The main counter argument against stacking, is that they both modify the humans base speed.
Like how you don't get more damage by lead blading your impact weapon. They overlap.
They are untyped bonuses to speed. Untyped bonuses always stack.
EDIT: Unless it specifically says it doesn't.
are they untyped bonuses or is it changing the base, like lead blades making the weapon count as large. now that it's counting as large impact does nothing, since it too is making it count as large.
So could fast movement, your speed is 10 faster than normal for your race. If my speed is 10 faster I am now 10 faster than normal for my race, having that ability again to be faster than normal for my race just gives me two abilities putting me to 10 faster.
Lead blades and Impact are bad examples as Impact requires the spell lead blades to have the effect be added to the weapon. The same spell doesn't stack normally.
But, I'm starting to see what you guys are talking about...
I'm still convinced that they stack as they say that they stack with any other ability that increases their land speed. But I'm am now too interested in any official ruling on this one way or another.
The similarity isn't that they both say "+10," it's that the ability is the same ability in every way except "barbarian" was replaced by "bloodrager." As was also pointed out, it's not a bonus, it's an explicit alteration of the base movement speed and both explicitly alter it to be 10 ft faster than normal.
The reasoning I'm using is that things don't stack with themselves. The counter argument is that the source is the class not the ability, but I think we'd agree that if two classes granted CHA to AC (Scaled Fist and Nature Oracle) that you don't get 2 x CHA to AC, even though the ability name and description is completely different.
P.S. Skill Focus and class skill bonus are different, nobody should argue otherwise. A better example would be your race grants Skill Focus (Diplomacy) and later you take a class that grants Skill Focus (Diplomacy), you still only have +3, not +6.
But if you get FCB from bard and FCB from skald you only get +3, because each class is making that a preferred skill for you, making you better than normal, but since you're already better than normal, the second class making you better than normal doesn't make you any better as you're already better than normal.If Bardic Knowledge didn't stack you'd have to figure out whether you add half your Bard level or half your Skald level. I say it stacks fine and you add both.
But this example is not parallel because they're actually giving you different benefits ("add half bard level" vs "add half skald level") whereas the fast movements provide the same benefit.
That first part makes sense... So I think it's fair to look into it more (I was just told that they don't stack by other players).
That second part though gets the same bonus from two different sources. If I get skill focus (diplomacy) and get the favored class bonus for diplomacy then they both provide a +3 to the skill, but they are two different sources that provide untyped bonuses, so they stack.
FCB? Are you talking about class skills in general or favored class bonus? If you're talking about class skills in general, then that's already covered in the skill section:
"In addition, each class has a number of favored skills, called class skills. It is easier for your character to become more proficient in these skills, as they represent part of his professional training and constant practice. You gain a +3 bonus on all class skills that you put ranks into. If you have more than one class and both grant you a class skill bonus, these bonuses do not stack."
It specifically says they don't stack.
The similarity isn't that they both say "+10," it's that the ability is the same ability in every way except "barbarian" was replaced by "bloodrager." As was also pointed out, it's not a bonus, it's an explicit alteration of the base movement speed and both explicitly alter it to be 10 ft faster than normal.
I'm understanding that stance now.
The reasoning I'm using is that things don't stack with themselves. The counter argument is that the source is the class not the ability, but I think we'd agree that if two classes granted CHA to AC (Scaled Fist and Nature Oracle) that you don't get 2 x CHA to AC, even though the ability name and description is completely different.
Ability scores are always added once unless it specifically called out, making this irrelevant.
P.S. Skill Focus and class skill bonus are different, nobody should argue otherwise. A better example would be your race grants Skill Focus (Diplomacy) and later you take a class that grants Skill Focus (Diplomacy), you still only have +3, not +6.
That's only because you can only have 1 Skill Focus (Diplomacy) regardless of what class or race you choose (unless otherwise specified). I was only using the example because they provide the same bonus, just different sources. Fast Movement from the Barbarian is a different source than Fast Movement from the Bloodrager.
Yeah, I side with the no, since both are saying your faster than your race by 10. so having movespeed 40 when your race is 30 is faster by ten. Having 2 abilities put you to 40 doesn't mean you get to jump to 50.
If one just said that your movespeed was increased by 10 you'd be good. If it just said your speed was 10 higher than normal I'd say you're good. But it saying that your speed is 10 higher than normal for your race is setting it to a new value, not giving you a bonus.
To add support to Chess Pwn's argument, here are the two abilities translated into math:
Barbarian Fast Movement: X = (B + 10)
Bloodrager Fast Movement: X = (B + 10)
Where B = Race's Base Speed and X = Character's Base Speed
Both modify B to result X. Neither modifies X.
Actually, you can have Skill Focus (Diplomacy) as many times as you like, but their benefits explicitly don't stack.
Benefit: What the feat enables the character ("you" in the feat description) to do. If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description.
Ability scores are always added once unless it specifically called out, making this irrelevant.
That was not always agreed upon. That had to be FAQ'd. I recall that it has always been the case that the same, identical thing never stacks with itself, but clearly there is disagreement on that. I recall it has always been the case that the "source" is the ability, not the class, but there's disagreement on that. Don't be so quick to dismiss something as irrelevant.
Yeah, I side with the no, since both are saying your faster than your race by 10. so having movespeed 40 when your race is 30 is faster by ten. Having 2 abilities put you to 40 doesn't mean you get to jump to 50.
If one just said that your movespeed was increased by 10 you'd be good. If it just said your speed was 10 higher than normal I'd say you're good. But it saying that your speed is 10 higher than normal for your race is setting it to a new value, not giving you a bonus.
To add support to Chess Pwn's argument, here are the two abilities translated into math:
Barbarian Fast Movement: X = (B + 10)
Bloodrager Fast Movement: X = (B + 10)Where B = Race's Base Speed and X = Character's Base Speed
Both modify B to result X. Neither modifies X.
I understand this math, but is "normal for your race" a set value or an ambiguous term to mean "base speed"? Because both of these specify that they stack with other modifications to "base speed" and not "speed normal for your race". If it means a set value, then your math is what it is supposed to be. If it's fluff, then it would be:
Barbarian Fast Movement: B = (B + 10)
Bloodrager Fast Movement: B = (B + 10)
Meaning taking a level in each with a human would give you 50ft Base land speed.
A monk's Fast Movement feature, which is an enhancement bonus and ranges from +10 to +60, definitely stacks with a barbarian's Fast Movement feature. Ergo, the same name doesn't make it the same, unstackable source.
I like Chess Pwn's argument, though.
Actually, you can have Skill Focus (Diplomacy) as many times as you like, but their benefits explicitly don't stack.
Benefit: What the feat enables the character ("you" in the feat description) to do. If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description.
Isn't that what I said?
From Skill Focus:
"Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new skill."
It says that it applies to a different skill... And I said that you can only take it once unless otherwise specified. So maybe a misunderstanding?
If two different classes each gave you Skill Focus (Diplomacy) in particular (which I think is the scenario we were discussing), you would have it twice, but only receive the benefits once.
Perhaps Persuasive would have been a better example for this, as it has no special "take more than once" text. You can still take it (or be given it) more than once, it just doesn't help any after the first time.
EDIT: I have seen this be relevant in a thread about retraining issues.
Ability scores are always added once unless it specifically called out, making this irrelevant.That was not always agreed upon. That had to be FAQ'd. I recall that it has always been the case that the same, identical thing never stacks with itself, but clearly there is disagreement on that. I recall it has always been the case that the "source" is the ability, not the class, but there's disagreement on that. Don't be so quick to dismiss something as irrelevant.
I must have missed that confusion. Same bonus types never stacked (unless otherwise specified). You can only add Charisma bonus once, and same with Strength or anything really (unless, once again, specified otherwise).
Bonuses from the same source don't stack? The source is Fast Movement. You can't have two Fast Movements any more than you could have two Uncanny Dodges.
The name being the same is not enough -- there is also a Monk class ability called Fast Movement that is worded entirely differently than the Barbarian ability and that, as far as I know, everyone agrees should stack with the Barbarian ability.
I think I would raise another question to decide whether the Barbarian and Bloodrager Fast Movement abilities would stack: What is the definition of "Base Speed"? Let's say you started out as a Barbarian. The Fast Movement ability adds +10 feet to your base speed of 30 feet (for most races). Is the resulting value of 40 feet your new base speed or something else?
If the Barbarian Fast Movement ability increased your base speed, then the Bloodrager Fast Movement ability can do that again for a final base speed of 50 feet. If, instead, your speed of 40 feet is an adjusted, non-base speed, then you are once again adding 10 feet to 30 feet and thus can choose between a speed of 40 feet as a Barbarian or a speed of 40 feet as a Bloodrager.
If two different classes each gave you Skill Focus (Diplomacy) in particular (which I think is the scenario we were discussing), you would have it twice, but only receive the benefits once.
Perhaps Persuasive would have been a better example for this, as it has no special "take more than once" text. You can still take it (or be given it) more than once, it just doesn't help any after the first time.
EDIT: I have seen this be relevant in a thread about retraining issues.
You can only "take" a feat once unless it has the "Special: You can gain this feat multiple times...", but you can be given the same feat numerous times if class or ability gives it to you I suppose (Alertness Feat and having your Familiar).
EDIT: I take this back for now, I so far am not seeing this written in the books.
"Your race" != "You"
Human's normal speed is fixed at 30. Anything other than 30 is not "normal."
EDIT: Not to belabor the point because the mechanics is a clearer argument, but they don't just have the same name, they are word-for-word identical except for the class's name.
"Your race" != "You"
Human's normal speed is fixed at 30. Anything other than 30 is not "normal."
EDIT: Not to belabor the point because the mechanics is a clearer argument, but they don't just have the same name, they are word-for-word identical except for the class's name.
Yes, that has been made clear. My new question is whether or not that statement was just a description for Base Speed, or is it literal? The Barbarian section in the book specifically uses the words "she" and "her" (because of the iconic), but that doesn't mean a male Barbarian doesn't get the abilities (but if you took every word written literally, then male Barbarians are pretty much useless).
EDIT: They are not word for word the same (although similar).
I'm just going to FAQ it because both sides of the argument have merit.
It says it stacks with any BONUS to speed, every other ability I'm aware is worded to be a bonus to your speed or increasing your speed, which means bonus. This one is worded differently. It's not saying your speed is increased or faster than normal, but that your speed is faster than your races normal.
Is the difference of wording intentional or not?
From recent experience I'm more confident to say that they probably didn't mean what they said and that this is a bonus and would stack than saying they meant this to be different because they used different wording.
But from what I feel the rules say is that they don't stack.
Assuming the use of a gender specific pronoun excludes the other gender in describing class abilities is a whole other level of literalness.
Use of "she" to summarize "he/she/it" as is standard in writing vs. "faster than is normal for your race by 10 feet" to mean something different and more easily written "you receive a 10 ft enhancement bonus to your movement" (see Monk). Not the same class of possible confusion.
It says "A barbarian's land speed is faster than the norm for her race by +10 feet."
That could be description, but it could also be literal. It's not any easier or more difficult to write differently (in fact, the monk description you included has 15 syllables, and the one you provided for the barbarian/bloodrager has 12).
And it can be just as confusing as those people who were confused about adding an ability score to a stat twice.
It says "A barbarian's land speed is faster than the norm for her race by +10 feet."
That could be description, but it could also be literal. It's not any easier or more difficult to write differently (in fact, the monk description you included has 15 syllables, and the one you provided for the barbarian/bloodrager has 12).
And it can be just as confusing as those people who were confused about adding an ability score to a stat twice.
I'm not saying it's not confusing. I'm saying it is disingenuous to say someone being confuse/disagreeing with your interpretation would assume the use of "she" in a class description means you have to be female to use the ability.
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They explicitly state they stack.
That's good enough for me.
I would look askance at someone who ruled otherwise (I think this also deserves a "really?!") but it is ambiguous enough that I would not argue over it with them.
They explicitly state they stack.
That's good enough for me.I would look askance at someone who ruled otherwise (I think this also deserves a "really?!") but it is ambiguous enough that I would not argue over it with them.
This.
I'm not saying it's not confusing. I'm saying it is disingenuous to say someone being confuse/disagreeing with your interpretation would assume the use of "she" in a class description means you have to be female to use the ability.It says "A barbarian's land speed is faster than the norm for her race by +10 feet."
That could be description, but it could also be literal. It's not any easier or more difficult to write differently (in fact, the monk description you included has 15 syllables, and the one you provided for the barbarian/bloodrager has 12).
And it can be just as confusing as those people who were confused about adding an ability score to a stat twice.
It was an example. Some things are written literally in these rule books that give the mechanics of an ability ("Starting at 1st level, a barbarian can rage for a number of rounds per day equal to...") and others are descriptions of the abilities that hold nothing mechanical to the game ("A barbarian can call upon inner reserves of strength and ferocity, granting her additional combat prowess.")
I doubt anyone would penalize a male barbarian simply because of the descriptor words of "she/her" due to harsh reading, but then again, people are trying to penalize barbarians for the descriptor words "faster than the norm for her race" due to harsh reading.
I lean now that they stack. The line, "This bonus stacks with any other bonuses to the bloodrager's land speed." says, "THIS BONUS". Meaning it can't be setting the base, because a new base isn't a bonus. So since 2/3 of the sentences say "this bonus" then the first must be granting a bonus.
I lean now that they stack. The line, "This bonus stacks with any other bonuses to the bloodrager's land speed." says, "THIS BONUS". Meaning it can't be setting the base, because a new base isn't a bonus. So since 2/3 of the sentences say "this bonus" then the first must be granting a bonus.
Sure, but "this bonus" is to increase the race's base land speed by 10'. So I don't know that that gets you anywhere.
Well, you know, other than 10' farther than you ordinarily would have been.
it says this bonus stacks with other bonuses. thus is must mechanically be a bonus granted to your speed rather than setting your base speed. mechanically bonuses are positive numbers.