Not to beat a dead horse on the whole ferocity issue ... but it seems like there are two camps ... one which says its deadly to take it, as the DM usually ignores characters who are bleeding out ... whereas the other is saying it is awesome, as you get to heal while bleeding out.
What do you think when the enemy still has at least one attack left when they drop you into the negatives? Is it helpful, or hurtful.
For the post about spending feats on fast healer ... there are traits you can take which increase magical healing (or a level in medium / hierophant) which is a much less expensive way of doing what you are describing (3 feats is huge).
I guess the question I want to ask the OP is ... why is this campaign interesting to you? If the DM is doing CR+5 monsters against you, with additional environmental conditions ... are you trying to beat the DM? Or are you just playing around with making severely overpowered characters?
If you want survivability ... go high AC build ... (multi-class kitsune, fox shape, level 4 pick up amulet of mighty fists (agile)) -- you have almost no skills, but you have the DPS, the saves, and the AC.
Looking at your build in the first post, you probably will not be happy with this character.
Most Oradins go melee, to reduce the number of stats to STR/CON/Char and dump some of the remaining stats -- as a ranged character, you are going DEX/STR/CON/Char, and not dumping any.
With your feats going to two dissimilar feat chains (healing and archery), you will be behind the curve in both.
What is the goal of being a ranged Oradin? Meaning, do you need those two clases? For instance:
If you max UMD, and use arcane wands/scrolls to deal ranged damage, would that suffice? This removes the need for STR and DEX from your build and ups your DPS, but costs gold.
Lastly, what level do you see this build coming online?
Celeborne,The issue is that the ability you quoted says the following:
Finally, for the purposes of these feats, the warpriest can select feats that have a minimum number of fighter levels as a prerequisite, treating his warpriest level as his fighter level.
Unfortunately, the bolded part is all that you get from the warpriest. The entire extent of what the warpriest gets is just the ability to pick up feats easier.
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.
The white haired witch's class ability ... is it the use of her (own / natural) hair, or is it the use of the hair she has on her, even if it's from a new form?
I believe it to be retained, but since this is for PFS, I want to verify beforehand.
Strange question .... how do they KNOW if you dip? For instance, if you take a level of medium (channeling Champion), you get +2 will (class), then your spirit + séance gives you +1 to hit/fort saves and +3 to damage.
Be the relic version of the medium so you never have to worry about finding a good spot to channel the spirit.
Don't use your spirit burst power, or anything else ... just continue to be a beat stick with slightly higher will saves/damage.
Murdock. For my tiny character. I don't have the option of using str for grapple. Forget about weapon finesse. It's due to my size and the cmb rules.
When the white witch archetype attempts to swap str for int. I think it fails as there is no str in the equation.
The better wording for whw would have been "use int instead of the governing attribute, apply this substitution last"
Fox shape is gotten at level one due to the alternate racial abilities (bypassing BAB requirements)
re: first round of combat ... not just the stealth, but also the init bonus!!!
I am already getting Dex to Damage at level character level 4 from my Agility amulet ... the unchained rogue ability only affects one weapon (not the claw/claw/bite/gore/sting) combo I am using -- and it would come online later than the amulet did.
Yes ... amulet can make my attacks magic. Once I can afford it (I just turned level 4, and haven't played yet), I can look into retraining Arcane Strike. In the meantime though, it'll be 1-2 levels more before I can afford the +1 agile amulet.
As far as unarmed strikes are concerned ... there is considerable debate as to whether a fox or other non-humanoid can use improved unarmed strike. I am bypassing that discussion by not doing that. I agree that Sap Adept / Master is a great combo, my first rogue went that approach.
My original thought for this character was just taking rogue starting at level 4 onwards ... but then I looked at all the juice dips available, and the more I looked, the further rogue was pushed out. See Louise's conversation and mine ... I'm on the fence of just getting rid of the rogue levels.
I love the idea of cross blooded psychic Thank you!! This lets me use Arcane Mark by pushing my nose against things to "mark" them and lets me sniff out magic (detect magic)!
Louise Bishop wrote:
Dirty Fighting is a thing. But since you are dex you will need agile manuevers.
As a tiny creature, per rules on CMB, I already use Dex instead of STR.
Louise Bishop wrote:
Optimizers all agree the more you Increase your chances to hit the more damage you do. That +2 to attack and +2 to damage far outweighs the Lower BaB and Sneak attack. Sneak attack has some enemies you can not use it on and as someone else pointed out your familiar can not flank for you like you were wanting. Thus you NEED a flanking partner for that ability to work.
Optimizing past a certain point is not feasible (once you hit on a 2, there is nothing to optimize) ... I'll run the numbers.
And no, the person pointing out that my familiar couldn't be a flank buddy was incorrect as I posted.
To recap: Tiny creatures (0 reach) must be in the square of the person they are attacking ... both my familiar and I are ... Underfoot says that any adjacent allies are considered flanking (as am I) ... adjacent is defined as no more than 5' away. Hence, flanking with my familiar.
Louise Bishop wrote:
It could be ... it only happened once, and I am unsure if it was me aid-another'ing or whatnot. -- Either way, I now know this doesn't work.
Louise Bishop wrote:
Lastly, you can not use Unchained rogue for Vexing Dodger because Vexing replaces trap sense and Unchained has danger sense. So the Skill unlock would need to be a feat which you are kind of low on.
Per Unchained Rogue Danger Sense:This ability counts as trap sense for the purpose of any feat or class prerequisite, and can be replaced by any archetype class feature that replaces trap sense.
So although I could use Vexing dodger, it doesn't seem to give me anything I would want.
And unfortunately, if I remember, the skill unlocks feat is not currently allowed in PFS ...
Sorry, to explain further .. I'm a kitsune using fox shape. Not a familiar, anthropomorphic, or any other method.
I have weapon finesse as a feat chosen at level 1, as mentioned above, cmb is calculated using Dex per the rules on cmb.
My question is that being tiny, weapon finesse, and white haired witch all attempt to replace str with either Dex or int.
The original question stands, when multiple sources attempt to replace the same stat, is there a hard rule on this?
The difference is this:
Me to Team: Hey guys, anyone have an idea of how to help me?
Me to Team: Hey guys. I've noticed I've a low will save. Here's what we need to do, every combat, you need to cast these spells on me in this order.
Me to Team: Hey guys. Just a word of warning, I know that I almost killed you a few times. I've looked over my options, and it doesn't look like I can solve this. Beware I'm gonna get dominated and kill you guys (I just upgraded my weapon)
I 100% agree that the +2 fort that the warrior gives is better than the +2 ref that the rogue gives ... poison though, I disregard -- the spell delay poison is such a good spell to be cast on front-liners, that I consider it a staple. But +2d6 sneak attack vs the +2 to hit/Damage/Ref, +4 AC seems bigger somehow.
My biggest concern is via role-playing, to have to switch to kitsune form to drink the mutagen just feels wrong. Don't get me wrong, I have a couple toons which mix-up rage and mutagen and have a blast. This guy though, is all about static-persistent bonuses, instead of temporary ones (mage armor (3 hours = basically all day) or the occasional shield spell is different)
You can actually diplomacy as a fox ... grin ... the way I do it, is to make puppy dog eyes at the NPCs ... might be a bit of a penalty due to lack of common language, but still :)
And yes, skills are not as important in higher levels -- I will never make the knowledge checks (knowledge is not a class skill, negative int bonus, lack of skill ranks) to identify monsters. My perception is low
Re: ring of eloquence: that should be a needed item, but the way I'm playing it, the fox tries never to talk (this is difficult for me as a player, as I usually like to be up-front-and-talking) ...
What do you think of the hunter animal focus? Is there any ones that look good? Alternately, the style feats ... I'm trying to see if I can dirty trick instead of making an attack, but it looks to take quite a large amount of feats ... I also looked into the vexing dodger archetype for the rogue, but losing my dex while climbing seemed insane. Now, level 5 rogue for the skill unlock would fix that, but that's way too many levels.
SorrySleeping ... help me out here to understand what you are saying:
A fox (Tiny) has reach 0, just like a thrush (diminutive). With 0' reach, we need to be in the enemies square.
My familiar is in the same square as me (i.e. in the same square as the enemy) ... can you explain why I can attack the enemy, but the thrush cannot? If the thrush can attack the enemy (even if it doesn't) then it threatens them, which means flanking, right?
With the pathfinder definition of adjacent meaning 5' or closer, the familiar and I are adjacent.
Can you point out what I am missing?
Arcane strike is more than +1 damage, it makes my natural attacks count as magic ... which is amazing to bypass Dr/Magic until/unless I upgrade my amulet of might fists: agile to agile+1 (level 5 or 6 due to fame)
3 levels Mutagen Fighter vs Rogue:
I'm not seeing the awesomeness of the mutagenic fighter ...
Hmmm .. ranger, there's an idea. Is power attack better than piranha strike?
My flanking buddy is my thrust familiar ... he occupies my square and just sits there ... underfoot from mouser says that any adjacent allies provide flanking -- rules state that adjacent is anything 5' or closer (i.e. including the same square).
This is for PFS so no vivisectionist Alchemist ... plus since I am in fox shape almost 24x7, taking the standard to drink the mutagen is actually upwards of three rounds (standard to switch to kitsune form, standard to drink, standard to return to fox shape). You are correct that technically I would have extracts, but with my low casting stat, I would be unable to use them.
The casting of mage armor lasts 3 hours (trait gave +2 CL for sorcerer), so that's basically all day (3 rounds every 3 hours is fine).
The three levels of rogue were mainly for the Sneak Attack damage (+2d6 damage per hit, for 5 attacks) ... the evasion is ok ... the extra combat feat (rogue talent) isn't bad ... but the higher level plan I'm not so sure of ... initially I was looking at rogue from level 5 onwards ... but the more I looked at it, and the more I played it, the less inclined I was to go rogue.
Snakebite brawler was initially to get Sneak Attack while not losing another point of BAB, so that I could get my next teamwork feat (prereq of +4 BAB) as well as accomplished sneak attacker ... but having seen the enemies 5' step away from me while I am in their square, I chose step-up instead ...
Great suggestions though ...
I'm half tempted to take a second level of medium to give my allies the séance bonus ... or either two levels of Paladin (grace / lay on hands) or three levels of holy tactician paladin (easier teamwork feat stuff)
Grin ... I've been playing this since level 1, and about to hit level 4 (when I get to do damage) ... Looking for feedback on this build
Race: Kitsune, using the alternate racial trait to get fox shape at level 1. I spend virtually all my time in fox shape and I am the party tank.
1: Mouser Swashbuckler
Stats in Fox Shape at level 11
I'm looking for advice for levels 4+, if you see a glaring issue or if there is a better way to do something ...
If I had a white haired witch, with weapon finesse how do I determine which order to use in stat substitution for grapples.
1) white haired witch ability replaces str with int. Nothing for weapon finesse to interact with
5 Hps/level is fine for passive/out-of-combat healing, but for in-combat healing, it won't really be enough for you.
Check out my double-life linked oracle:
He heals 16 hps/person/round, and the damage is split between him and his toad familiar, so each takes 5 damage.
Grin. Proactive would be a better term than lazy.
As far as channel is concerned. You get one die every two levels. If we say average of 1d6 is 3.5 then one level of channel is 1.75. The level of medium gains you 2 hps of healing, so on average you are healing slightly more than if you hadn't taken it.
But. Since you value spells more than I do, the tradeoff for you isn't worth it
i haven't taken quicken channel yet and don't plan on it.
There is a ring where once a day I can channel as a swift. That should be good enough.
Purifying flames looks to be my level 11 feat if it becomes PFS legal in time.
My equipment is
For you the choice is human for my build or kitsune for the tails. The tails will delay you by two levels in everything so my build will not be as good.
Yes. Toad was for more hit points. As the link broke down, the two life links heal a nice amount of damage. But I want to make sure I can easily take the damage. Hence the protector archetype on the toad.
My init modifier is -2 and I'm pleased with that. I can't heal if the party hasn't been damaged.
The medium level cost one caster level but since my focus is on the double life link, that pays for itself. I host the Marshall spirit, choosing the heirophant seance bonus. This gives me the ability to meddle as a non action. (+1d6 to a party member after they failed). It's a tough choice to make. But if you do. Do it now. Bite the bullet and take the hit. Then sit back and watch the non-action healing get supercharged. Don't think "now I don't have the next level of spells" -- spells are icing on the cake for this build.
For the most part. I channel every 3-4 rounds, or once a fight unless there is something major happening. This leaves you with all your actions available to cast, provide support, or whatever it is you want to do.
I usually end the adventure with most of my spells and channels unused with the PCs enjoying the feeling of adventuring in easy mode. In fact, at level 9, my go-to spells are : mirderous command (used to reposition the enemy (provoking AoOs from my allies) or for damage prevention (if they aren't stacking my ally. They aren't damaging them)), delay poison (cast a neutralize poison later but in the meantime. Your party ignores poison and you don't spend actions or spell slots healing then), resist energy (always on the toad before anyone else), and either blessing or blessing of fervor). Occasionally a silence spelll on the most mobile party member to prevent enemy spell casting).
This is a lazy healer build. Where most of the power/impact is carefully disguised as nonaction through long duration spells. If you play it right you make the rest of the party shine
The characters I build are usually complex, lots of moving pieces, so I'm posting my newest build here for people to poke holes into prior to running it.
I'd much rather any gaps get plugged before the DM sees it.
This will be for PFS.
(thanks in advance)
Role of character:
Sits and listens to people planning, offers suggestions -- but all suggestions are of the type of "how about if we turn into a fox, sneak in, and steal the thing." -- even when the job isn't to steal stuff.
Current Stats (post-racial, fox shape)
Classes / Level
Level AC Damage
Key Pieces of Equipment:
1) Ranger for Aspect of Beast/ Bloodrager Draconic Bloodline for continuous claws. Reason for discarding, when Fox Shaped (polymorph effect) the claws disappear.
2) Bloodrager Abyssal Bloodline, they grow only when raging, which means they are there for fox shape.
3) Tiny Haramaki (for level 1). Reason for Discarding, the text that tiny armor is only half the armor value, meaning 0. Any other mundane armor cannot keep up with the max dex, so would be less protective.
4) Use wands while fox-shaped. Reason for discarding, no speech, no thumbs, etc. Can swap back-and-forth between forms, but that seems lame.
5) Slashing Grace: Requires WF for bite and claw, and should be ruled that two claws = other hand in use.
Chess Pwn wrote:
A normal titan fighter can wield a weapon one size category bigger
If you buy it two size categories bigger you cannot normally wield it
Set it on the floor. Cast enlarge person on yourself. You can now wield it
Oh. I see what I did. I double counted one of the sizes. Good catch
Ectar. If it helps. Reread the example but assume the toad had 5 damage at the start of the round. Everything else still applies.
Assume it has zero damage
Player 1-6 have 20 damage each.
My life link triggers for each toon.
It healed 16, took 4 effectively has fast healing 12
Do you concur?
Chess Pwn wrote:
enlarge person won't change the damage die of the 4d6. Since you're picking up the sword after getting big it's not going to grow at all.
Chess Pwn, I agree that the sword would not grow.
You yourself grow, allowing yourself to use the previously unusably large sword
It isn't :)
As it stands, with the toon I described above, my toad familiar effectively has Fast Healing 11 (12 if he gets fast healing 1 from being a life spirit -- I'm not 100% certain on that one) -- and absorbs about half the damage done to me.
You are mentioning two feats (take the hit, bonded mind), as well as two levels of alchemist to get me a second familiar, which won't have any teamwork feats (as I don't have any) ...
Unsure exactly what benefit that would do for me? Keep in mind, when I was putting this together, I tried really hard to get a tumor familiar, but it wasn't possible to shoe-horn in.
Wow, I never considered picking up the weapon after enlarging ... Which is strange, as I did that with my bow.
If we do that, we get one size category higher than I previously posted.
So, we should be at the 12d6 the posted originally mentioned.
Starting with normal Greatsword (2d6)
Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Naw. Stick with great sword.Grab a level of titan fighter, now you wield a large 2-handed.
Use primal warrior stance (gargantuan)
Enlarge person/bloodrager (colossal)
I'm unsure if it's 8 or 9d6 but either way. It's nice and opens you up to using the divine fighting feat so you can use vital strike more often.
My plan is Purifying Channel at 9 and Quicken Channel at 11, unless there is something better.
As it's stood, I've only had one tough time healing, and that was when I was stun locked ... Last night, I was on the other side of the battle map, life link was still in medium range (so active), all terrain was difficult, all PCs were flying/haste/expeditious retreat, so I just stayed medium range ... only spell I cast, was a full-round Silence on our party's grappling bloodrager, the enemy spellcaster went from scary to a kitten. I do need to figure out some longer range spells to add to my spells known, but that'll wait until I level.
I'd like Reactive Channel, but with the Toad and a high Con score, it'll be tough to need reactive ...
According to the Archives of Nethys it's PFS legal. I'm not sure if Kitsune are still up for grabs, or if you need a boon though. And I'd put the protector archetype on that toad familiar, if you didn't already.
Melkiador,Unsure if you noticed, but Protector was already applied and spelled out :)
Re: Kitsune ... ah, if only I could have been Kitsune, but I needed the feat from Human -- level 1 is fey foundling and selective channel. Level 3 is Extra Revelation (life link), level 5 is skill focus, level 7 is arcane heritage ... none of which is viable to give up
1) Toad Protector Familiar from Arcane Heritage -- 3 extra hps, can divide damage dealt to me between the toad and myself as a non-action.
So, as a non-action, at the beginning of my turn, I can heal everyone up to 16 points of damage, and both me and my toad take 5 damage per player. This is easily sustained, and easily my favorite healer yet.
I'm not familiar with the Kitsune trick ... is it PFS legal?
Those must have been some rough rolls. A 16 charisma on a level 7 oracle is quite low.
My actual charisma is higher. Last night (first time as character level 8) the dm and the normal dm were amazed at the sheer volume of channels. After the game ended I walked them through the build, they expressed concern as "this cannot be legal" as either I shouldn't have both pools. Or both pools should have different intensities.
For purposes of representing the character I simplified it by posting lower numbers
For instance. I am using an ioun stone for a +2 charisma while wearing my phyllactery. When I get a lot more gold I'll be selling the stone to buy a rod of ruler ship.