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Well, not everyone can necessarily gain Mythic. Such high levels of power are the purview of particularly powerful and rare individuals. Your average wizard with dreams of immortality is MUCH more likely and capable of becoming a Lich than being lucky enough to gain mythic power in some way (which is far more ill defined than lichdom).
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Becoming Mythic is much harder than becoming a Lich, for the most part.
I mean, any Wizard can be immortal by reaching 20th level, too, but becoming a Lich (while difficult) is a lot easier than that, too.
Heck, there are lots of ways to be immortal in the sense of unaging.
Liches are much harder to kill than almost any of them (9 tiers of mythic make you harder to kill than that, but that's almost unheard of), and is available at lower levels, or notably more easily, than most.
What's this story about wizards becoming immortal when they reach lvl 20?
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What's this story about wizards becoming immortal when they reach lvl 20?
Ultimate magic has an arcane discovery for immortality at level 20.
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The Immortality Arcane Discovery
Edit: Ninjaed by Milo while I was looking stuff up :3
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Well aside from the fact that not everyone can get mythic, a tier 10 lich would rejuvenate even if coup de grâced from an artifact. Making it that much harder to kill for good.
Well aside from the fact that not everyone can get mythic, a tier 10 lich would rejuvenate even if coup de grâced from an artifact. Making it that much harder to kill for good.
Save that a mythic lich has mythic ranks instead of tiers, and thus doesn't gain that ability.
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Save that a mythic lich has mythic ranks instead of tiers, and thus doesn't gain that ability.
There is no reason a lich who becomes mythic has to take the mythic lich template rather than mythic tiers, in fact the text implies the lich chooses.
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If you can become mythic and gain mythic immortality why would a caster ever become a Lich?
+2 intelligence, +2 wisdom and +2 charisma
+5 natural armor bonus60 ft. darkvision
Immunity to cold, electricity plus undead traits;
•Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).
•Immunity to bleed, death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
•Not subject to nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Constitution, Dexterity, and Strength), as well as to exhaustion and fatigue effects.
•Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature's Intelligence score.
•Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
•Not at risk of death from massive damage, but is immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points.
No longer need to eat, breathe or sleep.
That's a fair bit extra, to go along with 'You'll never grow old, Michael, and you'll never die.'
There's plenty of downside, too, but not nearly as bad as the laundry list of crippling problems that come with being a vampire!
What's this story about wizards becoming immortal when they reach lvl 20?Ultimate magic has an arcane discovery for immortality at level 20.
Thanks... of course I'd forgotten to look there... speak of missing the obvious.
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Why Lich? Because it's fun! It's like the Vegas of immortality, anything goes!
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You're correct. For example: Arazni is a lich wizard with archmage tiers, while Tar-Baphon is a lich wizard with the mythic lich template.There is no reason a lich who becomes mythic has to take the mythic lich template rather than mythic tiers, in fact the text implies the lich chooses.
Save that a mythic lich has mythic ranks instead of tiers, and thus doesn't gain that ability.
Actually, Arazni is a Marshal.
The point otherwise stands, though.
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I wasn't aware that there even was such a thing as a "mythic lich", I just assumed you talked about a lich with mythic tiers (which, given your phrasing, is kind of what you are asking).
Why would anyone take up "mythic lich"? I have no idea. The only reason I can see is if your campaign has so few mythic challenges that you are never meant to reach tier 9 or 10, as the mythic lich gets ranks automatically according to its level. Thus, a lvl 20 tier 1 caster would be better opting for a lvl 20 rank 10 "mythic lich", than a lvl 20 tier 1 mythic "lich".
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As a weird quirk - the Longevity path ability is a Supernatural ability, meaning it gets suppressed in anti-magic fields.
Just what that means depends on your GM. (I ruled the subject's physical aging can "resume" in such circumstances, but it should only be an issue if the subject gets trapped in an AMF for years.)
But I actually had a player argue that if someone with Longevity exceeds their natural lifespan and then enters into an AMF, they should die of old age on the spot.
A lich would give zero #$%^&*s about such matters =P
Edit: Note that the tier 9 mythic immortality power doesn't prevent you from dying of old age; it just allows you to get back up again from such a death. Up to the GM if that means you start dying of old age every day until you figure out a way to stop that =P
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If you can become mythic and gain mythic immortality why would a caster ever become a Lich?
Characters don't have the knowledge players do of the rulebooks of the game.
And mythic isn't a guaranteed acquisition. You can't decide "I'm going to be mythic next Tuesday, and ninth rank a month afterward".
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A psychic caster who becomes a lich is becoming immune to the most common thing that can shut down his casting: mind-affecting effects.
Well aside from the fact that not everyone can get mythic, a tier 10 lich would rejuvenate even if coup de grâced from an artifact. Making it that much harder to kill for good.Save that a mythic lich has mythic ranks instead of tiers, and thus doesn't gain that ability.
A mythic lich, or any other mythic npc, can be built either way.
If you can become mythic and gain mythic immortality why would a caster ever become a Lich?Characters don't have the knowledge players do of the rulebooks of the game.
And mythic isn't a guaranteed acquisition. You can't decide "I'm going to be mythic next Tuesday, and ninth rank a month afterward".
A certain ex-runelord/lich has been attempting to become mythic since well before earthfall.
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A certain ex-runelord/lich has been attempting to become mythic since well before earthfall.And consistently failing.
He's a 19th level Wizard, a lich, ancient beyond words, massively powerful...and still has no idea how to make himself Mythic.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic/mythic-magic/mythic-spells/ascension
Can non-mythic casters use this spell?
Sure, it's costly... and temporary... but it's a start, I guess?
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Lich is the low hanging, worm ridden fruit. It has always been that way. You want to live forever, but you aren't good enough to do it while maintaining your current human form, so you settle. You settle for undead.
Typically, the 'settle' part is 'no, I will die long, long before I can get wizard 20. I gotta try something else.'
And wizard 20 is something you can get if you just try long enough and just study magic (theoretically at least; you might also need some nice headbands and age modifiers to mental stats to get up there). Being mythic means you have to make super super powerful (which is hard, and often needs way more time and resources than being a lich, like using 1,000 souls or something), find/steal something super powerful, or be given some special power by a higher being (and that means you either get recruited in some special, highly dangerous quest by good gods or you are the idiot making deals with devils and demons and thinking things will turn out fine).
Note: Vampires are even lower hanging fruit. They are already fallen to the ground and been trampled upon. You don't even need mild mastery of magic: you just have to be a jerk that got to level 5 in anything, even commoner. You get pretty, fleshy immortality, but you are filled with a million little weaknesses that make killing much easier.
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Because it's cool. A good 50% of my character build decisions are based on the question: "how cool would this be?" From there, I optimize the hell out of the build so long as it keeps the core concept.
Lich is the low hanging, worm ridden fruit. It has always been that way. You want to live forever, but you aren't good enough to do it while maintaining your current human form, so you settle. You settle for undead.
Typically, the 'settle' part is 'no, I will die long, long before I can get wizard 20. I gotta try something else.'
And wizard 20 is something you can get if you just try long enough and just study magic (theoretically at least; you might also need some nice headbands and age modifiers to mental stats to get up there). Being mythic means you have to make super super powerful (which is hard, and often needs way more time and resources than being a lich, like using 1,000 souls or something), find/steal something super powerful, or be given some special power by a higher being (and that means you either get recruited in some special, highly dangerous quest by good gods or you are the idiot making deals with devils and demons and thinking things will turn out fine).
Note: Vampires are even lower hanging fruit. They are already fallen to the ground and been trampled upon. You don't even need mild mastery of magic: you just have to be a jerk that got to level 5 in anything, even commoner. You get pretty, fleshy immortality, but you are filled with a million little weaknesses that make killing much easier.
Again, characters, especially NPCs have no concept, of classes, levels, or level-based perks, those are game mechanics, not story. A wizard isn't going to "know" that there is X discovery at Y level, that's a Player reward that they can choose for their character.
A certain ex-runelord/lich has been attempting to become mythic since well before earthfall.And consistently failing.
He's a 19th level Wizard, a lich, ancient beyond words, massively powerful...and still has no idea how to make himself Mythic.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic/mythic-magic/mythic-spells/ascension
Can non-mythic casters use this spell?
Sure, it's costly... and temporary... but it's a start, I guess?
Note that the focus needed for the spell isn't something you can just order out of Bob's Magic Mart. Only a mythic caster can bypass that requirement.
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Again, characters, especially NPCs have no concept, of classes, levels, or level-based perks, those are game mechanics, not story. A wizard isn't going to "know" that there is X discovery at Y level, that's a Player reward that they can choose for their character.
While it might not be as exact as 'wizard 20', there are plenty of other indicators that are more than easily noticed as signs that a wizard is powerful enough to figure out how to be immortal.
The 9th level spell list is pretty much a clear cut indicator. If you aren't powerful enough to cast wish, time stop, gate, and tsunami, then you aren't powerful enough to get the immortality ability as a wizard.
EDIT (due to misidentifying the big, really noticeable spells): The wizard running around for centuries doing things like casting cursed earth to start zombie plagues and curse of fell seasons to turn the land into a kingdom of eternal winter.... that jerk gets noticed and put into history books. People take note "the guy abusing this spell seems to be able to live forever, I guess you have to be that strong to be immortal".
So if you can only stare at your shoes and fidget with your pointy hat, thinking "how do you ever DO something like that!?" you probably realize that you aren't anywhere close to being that strong. And you might realize you need to go with other options.
Now, I can understand conflating wizard immortality with the effects of the wish spell (since immortal wizards have level 9 spells, and wish seems general enough to get what you want). But I think that wizards, who are preoccupied with studies of magic and how it functions, might at least get a vague idea of general power level when there is such an obviously expressed method of gauging it.
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Again, characters, especially NPCs have no concept, of classes, levels, or level-based perks, those are game mechanics, not story. A wizard isn't going to "know" that there is X discovery at Y level, that's a Player reward that they can choose for their character.While it might not be as exact as 'wizard 20', there are plenty of other indicators that are more than easily noticed as signs that a wizard is powerful enough to figure out how to be immortal.
Keep in mind that 20th-plus level wizards aren't that common on Golarion, there are a few of them and they are generally scattered across history. Razmir himself is only 19th, (but he may have some special story extras as well, given that he has demonstrated powers that are not accounted for in that class and level.)
The point is... that there isn't a published data set that a wizard can look up and see the ultimate things he can aspire to. So many of them that are evil, and can't bear the thought of dying.. will take the lichdom option as it seems a "sure" thing.
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That said, casters can get pretty decent beads on character sheets.
Strength is easy to calculate for anyone who cares, while intelligence requires a divination spell (and you're likely the smartest thing in the room - if not, you've got bigger problems than temporary stunning). Hit points are easy, for divine casters, though theurges (or false priests) have an easier time gaining meta-information in that regard by spells from both sides of the arcane/divine line. Hit dice values are available starting at very low levels to every caster, though divine casters are at a slight advantage in their foes' and slight disadvantage as they can't grab certain alignment checks.
Heck; with INT values, and the hollowed out skull of a cyclops, you can check save values. Once you have save values, you can get modifiers from effects based off of non-INT systems by checking percentages and statistical averages against known relative save values (gained from checking equivalents of your own and several other DC values).
Hit dice and hit point genralities - or even specifics ("how long does it take to make you completely whole?") - let you figure out rough approximations of constitution (just check across wizards of the same spell levels), and with that a simple set of Take10 exercises should be able to show approximate dexterity levels.
Once you've done that, you've figured out all the basics of the meta-world except for feats and skill points... but those aren't that hard to figure, in a general sense (direct correlation to intelligence and higher skill values; obscured by non-obvious "class" distinction, but the correlation holds solid between two individuals of similar training style and talents). Figure how many things a person can do excellently and you won't have a guaranteed indicator of skills, but you'll have general trends in-character. Feats are just a matter of, "Can you do <this> special trick? <Yes/No>" which is relatively easy to discover in-character.
It's not going to be easy to get all this information - in fact, he number of creature that have a passing resemblance to it, I expect, is quite small. But as we're consistently reminded, the worlds are vast. It's not impossible for an immortal to gain this information, and not all that challenging for an immortal who's curious to do so, and for that, it makes sense that it's (statistically) already been done - probably more than once. There are probably a few immortals who know about HD, skills, feats, saves, scores, and spells. Base attack isn't even beyond the pale - put a Dex 10 commoner (determined after tests; doesn't have to be a commoner, it just has to be something Dex 10 and basic) into invincible plate armor and have other dudes attack him with a non-magical weapon, run the percentages.
AC is able to be learned through that: with armor, with nAC amulet instead, with mage armor, and so on.
Damage would be the hardest to really guess at, but you'd be able to suss it out, mostly by punching. "How many licks does it take to get to the knock out point of a dude with X hp?" - pay attention to the results. Extrapolate from there based on how quickly someone goes down under other damage.
Few pieces of information would be quite as reliably known as in our world - there would always be room for error due to statistical anomaly and errant data interpretation methods. But the basics can be followed and results consistantly reproduced.
Ah. So that's the mind-bending horror the great old ones all are aware of - we're nothing but scribbles on someone else's paper. Hm.
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Dude, everything is science. Even and especially when it's not science. How can you not science that stuff! That's the stuff you have to science the most~! D
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Keep in mind that 20th-plus level wizards aren't that common on Golarion, there are a few of them and they are generally scattered across history. Razmir himself is only 19th, (but he may have some special story extras as well, given that he has demonstrated powers that are not accounted for in that class and level.)
The point is... that there isn't a published data set that a wizard can look up and see the ultimate things he can aspire to. So many of them that are evil, and can't bear the thought of dying.. will take the lichdom option as it seems a "sure" thing.
While rare, and admittedly very open to misinterpretation... wizards at level 20 just seem like they would leave a very large effect on history unless they go off to live on another plane.
This is due to the fact that they take the existing notoriety of a high level wizard... and then spread that over hundreds of thousands of years.
It isn't hard to make a mark on history when you are older than all the nations around you. At least, provided that you keep an active presence, such as running your own county (examples: Geb and Nex). When your name gets written down as an important and powerful figure that has to be kept happy throughout the history of a nation... and then other nations notice how you are the one that blew up that nation (or at least the royal family) when it angered you... it is hard for people to NOT notice you.
When you have that much power, there is always going to be someone wondering "What do I have to do to be able to do that". Either just curiosity over the functions of the world or desire for power (both of which seem like they would be over represented in the wizard community). And those people try to study as best they can, learning from the greats of history... and then they try to publish their own data sets. Wizard colleges themselves seem like a great place for the research, collection, and publishing of the data set.
Yes, unreliable, limited scope data sets that don't show the whole picture... but they at least might guess "you need 9th level spells to be immortal" (and I fully support the idea that the wizard community at least has some understanding of spell levels: any wizard going from level 2 to 3 will notice the difference of what they can do; they may have unreliable info past level 6 or 7, but it they would at least try). Immortality just seems like too much of an interest for them to fail to notice at least a bit of that.
I will agree: Liches are far easier to become, with far easier access to research. There is the general 'one mad man working from scratch' (who might leave notes for others to following; a lot more moderate madmen than single true geniuses at level 20), who just uses moderate ability with necromancy. There are entire secret societies made of undead who would happily encourage a moderately powerful wizard to join their ranks. There are even demon lords, devils, and other evil things that would love to sell necromancy secrets.
Meanwhile, the high wizard method is largely for the true geniuses only, forcing their way to level 20 with their own mental might. Everyone else can only get anecdotal evidence and maybe a couple get direct training as apprentices. Even with near universal bans on lich research, you might honestly have a better chance of escaping arrest than one trying to reach level 20 wizard (because people take notice of your power, and view you as a threat, evne if you are well intentioned; I think many wizards are more 'weak bookworms' compared to the 'cutting edge battle masters' seen in adventuring parties; not everyone follows the adventurer lifestyle of sleeping 5 people to a room and in shifts, constantly using every paranoid method like using every detect spell at every meal).
Note that the focus needed for the spell isn't something you can just order out of Bob's Magic Mart. Only a mythic caster can bypass that requirement.http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic/mythic-magic/mythic-spells/ascension
Can non-mythic casters use this spell?
Sure, it's costly... and temporary... but it's a start, I guess?
Maybe not, but a lvl 20 casters has a lot of magic at his disposal to attempt to acquire an artifact. If he's a lich, he also has all the time in the world.
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That still seems like 10,000 for a little under 2 days of mythic power. Nice as a buff to counter a mythic opponent, since a lot of mythic powers have 'a you just lose if you aren't mythic' clause.... in no way is it a practical method of immortality.
Particularly the fact that you need to keep the artifact close by at all times. That is basically the lich's phylactery, but you can't just put it at the bottom of the ocean and hope no one finds it.
Anyway, the costs are 2,191,470 gp per year in components, or more than a level 20's wealth by level, several times a year. You pretty much need your own nation devoted to you in order to afford that (...Razmir? ....it makes sense....)
That still seems like 10,000 for a little under 2 days of mythic power. Nice as a buff to counter a mythic opponent, since a lot of mythic powers have 'a you just lose if you aren't mythic' clause.... in no way is it a practical method of immortality.
Particularly the fact that you need to keep the artifact close by at all times. That is basically the lich's phylactery, but you can't just put it at the bottom of the ocean and hope no one finds it.
Anyway, the costs are 2,191,470 gp per year in components, or more than a level 20's wealth by level, several times a year. You pretty much need your own nation devoted to you in order to afford that (...Razmir? ....it makes sense....)
... ooooooorrrrrrrr... if you're an immortal lich, just squirrel the money away, and then do ~1,818,000k gold-value* and it's yours for all time (unless someone steals it from you)**.
EDIT: Spoiler!
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That still seems like 10,000 for a little under 2 days of mythic power. Nice as a buff to counter a mythic opponent, since a lot of mythic powers have 'a you just lose if you aren't mythic' clause.... in no way is it a practical method of immortality.
Particularly the fact that you need to keep the artifact close by at all times. That is basically the lich's phylactery, but you can't just put it at the bottom of the ocean and hope no one finds it.
Anyway, the costs are 2,191,470 gp per year in components, or more than a level 20's wealth by level, several times a year. You pretty much need your own nation devoted to you in order to afford that (...Razmir? ....it makes sense....)
The mythic tier granted by the spell, by itself, isn't going to make you immortal.
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That still seems like 10,000 for a little under 2 days of mythic power. Nice as a buff to counter a mythic opponent, since a lot of mythic powers have 'a you just lose if you aren't mythic' clause.... in no way is it a practical method of immortality.
Particularly the fact that you need to keep the artifact close by at all times. That is basically the lich's phylactery, but you can't just put it at the bottom of the ocean and hope no one finds it.
Anyway, the costs are 2,191,470 gp per year in components, or more than a level 20's wealth by level, several times a year. You pretty much need your own nation devoted to you in order to afford that (...Razmir? ....it makes sense....)
Except that if he had that, he wouldn't have to be hatching schemes to obtain the Thuvian Elixir.
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Except that if he had that, he wouldn't have to be hatching schemes to obtain the Thuvian Elixir.
He could. The key problem is this: 2,191,470 gp per year in components.
That is not practical. At all. You can force it, but you will be in desperate need for an alternative. There are many, many flaws with that form of immortality.
It needs refreshing in under 2 days, and requires you to keep a valuable artifact on hand, near you, out in the open, at all times. That seems like a great way to encourage people to rob you (admittedly, you have to do that in front of a high level wizard that is supposedly a god... still, there are people that rob actual gods on some planes...)
Also, the mythic methods are likely to merely pause the flow of your time- every time you let the fake mythic rank slip for a day or two, you allow yourself to lose another sliver of your remaining life. Even if you view the fake mythic stuff as your main form of immortality, you would generally look for the thuvian elixir as a supplement to help with upkeep.
And if he could maintain a consistent control over the production of thuvian elixir? Then he could toss the mythic stuff into a closet as an occasional backup buff, since he would have a consistent flow of something that helps maintain his life indefinitely.
I am not suggesting it as a serious 'lore' thing. Especially since Razmir was established prior to the mythic stuff. I simply put this forward as an interesting idea that could have been consistent with the character.
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You are forgetting about the GM, who may consider this metagaming and screw with all the results.
No I did not. Not once in that post did I mention PCs.
I would also note that NPCs don't get XP. NPC leveling is arbitrary so they have no expectation that they will be able to reach 20 even if they do spend their entire life adventuring.
That is a valid, but very specific way of playing the game that doesn't hold true to all people.
While it is true that the preponderance of GMs do not track minutae of XP, the general presumption is that the older (and thus more experienced a character is) the - coincidentally - more effective experience points they have to represent the fact that they are, you know more experienced: this is generally translated into a higher level.
What your argument boils down to, then, is, "No such characters exist if the GM doesn't want them to." which is, ultimately, not much of an argument, because nothing exists except what a GM wants to exist. But any GM that is taking the world at its own purported numbers, looking at its own general trends, and accepting those as representative of the way the world works will allow that some rare few such creatures do exist or have existed in the omniverse.
The data is simply to readily available (comparatively) and there are simply too many creatures out there. Probability adds up to such near-certainty that it's lack is general evidence of direct meddling and enforcement of ignorance... which indicates that someone knows and is keeping the secret.
Or a GM can just ignore probability and go, "Not in my world." and, hey, they've every right to do so - but, uh, that's pretty heavy metagaming (which isn't actually a bad thing, despite many people treating it like it is).
Permanency?
Though really, does he need mythic every single day?
I'm not even sure what we are discussing anymore. The standard lich gets rejuvenation either way, so it's not like he needs 9 tiers to beat death.
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Permanency?
Though really, does he need mythic every single day?
I'm not even sure what we are discussing anymore. The standard lich gets rejuvenation either way, so it's not like he needs 9 tiers to beat death.
As far as I am aware, we were discussing mythic as an alternative to being a lich for the 'being immortal' department. And the spell lets you touch on mythic without actually being mythic (since that is more attainable than being actually mythic)
So...yeah, you would have to be mythic everyday. Because every day you aren't, it is one step closer to running out of life span and dying naturally of old age before you could cast again.
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Originally, the OP compared lichdom to the mythic "Immortal" ability (return to life after anything short of an epic/mythic coup de grace/critical hit) - which needs Mythic Rank 9 to get, so no ascension.
Ascension can get you mythic longevity, though, if I understand it correctly. So, you can fight of old age, but you won't come back from the dead.
Yeah. I mostly was just exploring the idea of using the spell, not going with the OP'e original purpose.
If we really wanted the original purpose, though, the "easiest" (as in "most guaranteed to work" and "most commonly available") method is the mana wells (I think they're called?) of the mana wastes. Sure you get a random chance of s bit of a drawback, but that's no real biggie. The main "trick" is finding them and surviving the undead dragon that's around somewhere. A high lelvel intelligence focused character with research should be able to find them. Barring that, a lich with time and focus should be able to do so instead. :)
Originally, the OP compared lichdom to the mythic "Immortal" ability (return to life after anything short of an epic/mythic coup de grace/critical hit) - which needs Mythic Rank 9 to get, so no ascension.
Ascension can get you mythic longevity, though, if I understand it correctly. So, you can fight of old age, but you won't come back from the dead.
I don't think a single mythic tier gets you immortality.
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It does if you prioritize it (and mean being immune to age). Longevity is a first tier universal ability, and thus available at Tier 1.
That's just an extension of your lifespan, not immortality.