Using flying kick as an intitator


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Silver Crusade

Another way to get Medusa's Wrath to trigger is to use a seven-branch sword to trip a target wearing clothes or armor, rendering them flat-footed rather than prone. Doesn't work on naked monsters, but it is easier to crank up your trip CMB than your Stunning Fist DC. You can even use one of your bonus unarmed attacks to trip for real.


Why bother multiclassing with a Monk? Just use a Sansetsukon (With Crane Style)/Seven branched sword or go unarmed with Jabbing or Dragon Style. The damage will definitely be there either way.


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zza ni wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
Barkskin is a limited duration power eating a very limited resource. Unless the duration is at least an hour/level abilities are not a substitute for items. And almost every ability the monk used to get for free all day is now a ki power that costs per use, making ki even dearer.

Ki leech.u get to use it with no ki.

On a side note about getting ur medusa wrath attacks. I know were talking about flying kick, but u get more then one special attacl.so incase ur allready in reach and even better at enogh high level to use two while full attacking.spin kick. Make one normal attack amd for the medusa extra attavks spin kicks

Isn't Ki Leech an evil spell (as in, it has the [evil] descriptor)? Pretty sure monks who regularly use it are going to end up in the "eats babies" end of the alignment pool sooner or later.


Torbyne wrote:
Can you use flying kick with ascetic style and a reach weapon to get that tiny little boost to your "pounce" range? I keep toying with a Kurisagame Unmonk.

No, because Style Strikes require specific body parts, and Ascetic Style doesn't override that. Ascetic Form, on the other hand, explicitly allows Style Strikes, and you want that feat anyway (for the extra attack via Ki Pool, which doesn't fall under Ascetic Style's effect).

Secret Wizard wrote:
There is quite some room for additional UnMonk options...

The literally first thing I thought about when I read the Style Strikes (and the "can only be done with this body part" thing) was that there should be two archetypes that allow more style strikes, but limit you to either kicks or punches. I did actually write those archetypes, maybe I can find them again.

Ventnor wrote:
Isn't Ki Leech an evil spell (as in, it has the [evil] descriptor)? Pretty sure monks who regularly use it are going to end up in the "eats babies" end of the alignment pool sooner or later.

Only if your GM uses a poorly written suggestion in a sidebar in some splatbook instead of using common sense and what the CRB says.

@OP: Print out the Tier List in font size 20, then hit your GM with that list on his head until he admit's that he's been stupid.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Frosty Ace wrote:
Why bother multiclassing with a Monk? Just use a Sansetsukon (With Crane Style)/Seven branched sword or go unarmed with Jabbing or Dragon Style. The damage will definitely be there either way.

1 level of monk gets you IUS, some random feat, probably dodge(MoMS you'll probably get a style feat instead), you need stunning fist for dragon style as well.

that's 3 feats(that you really need) for a single level dip, probably also giving you a +2 will save, and all that at the mere cost of -1 BAB.

also, if you're so inclined you get wisdom to AC now.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Derklord wrote:


Ventnor wrote:
Isn't Ki Leech an evil spell (as in, it has the [evil] descriptor)? Pretty sure monks who regularly use it are going to end up in the "eats babies" end of the alignment pool sooner or later.
Only if your GM uses a poorly written suggestion in a sidebar in some splatbook instead of using common sense and what the CRB says.

idk, eating life force seems pretty evil.


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Bandw2 wrote:
Derklord wrote:


Ventnor wrote:
Isn't Ki Leech an evil spell (as in, it has the [evil] descriptor)? Pretty sure monks who regularly use it are going to end up in the "eats babies" end of the alignment pool sooner or later.
Only if your GM uses a poorly written suggestion in a sidebar in some splatbook instead of using common sense and what the CRB says.
idk, eating life force seems pretty evil.

Borrowing! and they werent doing anything with it anyways. and there have not been any studies conclusively proving the long term negative effects of having your Ki... borrowed.


Derklord wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
Can you use flying kick with ascetic style and a reach weapon to get that tiny little boost to your "pounce" range? I keep toying with a Kurisagame Unmonk.
No, because Style Strikes require specific body parts, and Ascetic Style doesn't override that. Ascetic Form, on the other hand, explicitly allows Style Strikes, and you want that feat anyway (for the extra attack via Ki Pool, which doesn't fall under Ascetic Style's effect).

You are technically correct and i will award you your internet points for being so but i will also go ahead and edit your response in my mind to, "Yes, the Ascetic Style feat chain does let you do that. Enjoy your Monk."


Bandw2 wrote:
idk, eating life force seems pretty evil.

First, the target doesn't even actually loose anything, not even ki if he has a Ki Pool on his own. Second, how is something that doesn't hurt the enemy more evil than slashing him open with a sword? Third, the [Evil] descriptior is the most randomly distrubuted thing in all of Pathfinder. Trapping a soul (Trap the Soul/Soul Bind) is not tagged as evil (wasn't that the reason why creating undead was evil?) while tasting a dead spellcaster's blood is. Dealing nonlethal damage with Pain Strike is evil, but setting the target on fire is not.

@Torbyne: I'm sorry, I just had to.


well.. yeah, it is the best kind of correct though, isnt it?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Derklord wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
idk, eating life force seems pretty evil.
First, the target doesn't even actually loose anything, not even ki if he has a Ki Pool on his own. Second, how is something that doesn't hurt the enemy more evil than slashing him open with a sword? Third, the [Evil] descriptior is the most randomly distrubuted thing in all of Pathfinder. Trapping a soul (Trap the Soul/Soul Bind) is not tagged as evil (wasn't that the reason why creating undead was evil?) while tasting a dead spellcaster's blood is. Dealing nonlethal damage with Pain Strike is evil, but setting the target on fire is not.

ugh... they lose HP points, from you know, the critical hit or 0 or fewer HP points being required...

as far as I can tell, you literally just pick up the Ki that get's shed off when someone starts dying. so ugh... you gain power from people dying... seems pretty evil.


Bandw2 wrote:
Derklord wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
idk, eating life force seems pretty evil.
First, the target doesn't even actually loose anything, not even ki if he has a Ki Pool on his own. Second, how is something that doesn't hurt the enemy more evil than slashing him open with a sword? Third, the [Evil] descriptior is the most randomly distrubuted thing in all of Pathfinder. Trapping a soul (Trap the Soul/Soul Bind) is not tagged as evil (wasn't that the reason why creating undead was evil?) while tasting a dead spellcaster's blood is. Dealing nonlethal damage with Pain Strike is evil, but setting the target on fire is not.

ugh... they lose HP points, from you know, the critical hit or 0 or fewer HP points being required...

as far as I can tell, you literally just pick up the Ki that get's shed off when someone starts dying. so ugh... you gain power from people dying... seems pretty evil.

...? And just how did your characters get the XP to level then? Running around with a Sap?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Torbyne wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Derklord wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
idk, eating life force seems pretty evil.
First, the target doesn't even actually loose anything, not even ki if he has a Ki Pool on his own. Second, how is something that doesn't hurt the enemy more evil than slashing him open with a sword? Third, the [Evil] descriptior is the most randomly distrubuted thing in all of Pathfinder. Trapping a soul (Trap the Soul/Soul Bind) is not tagged as evil (wasn't that the reason why creating undead was evil?) while tasting a dead spellcaster's blood is. Dealing nonlethal damage with Pain Strike is evil, but setting the target on fire is not.

ugh... they lose HP points, from you know, the critical hit or 0 or fewer HP points being required...

as far as I can tell, you literally just pick up the Ki that get's shed off when someone starts dying. so ugh... you gain power from people dying... seems pretty evil.

...? And just how did your characters get the XP to level then? Running around with a Sap?

saving a town from goblins.

besides, I don't use XP, and I don't think you gain experience directly from the loss of life of other creatures.


Bandw2 wrote:
ugh... they lose HP points, from you know, the critical hit or 0 or fewer HP points being required...

If that was evil, every single thing in the game that deals hit point damage or otherwise kills the target would be evil, too.

Bandw2 wrote:
you gain power from people dying... seems pretty evil.

So a non-evil character is not allowed to loot a dead enemie's body? Because looting the target for useful items has the same result, gaining power from killing the enemy. Only Ki Leech doesn't require stripping the dead of his possessions, possibly even partially undressing him.


Derklord wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
ugh... they lose HP points, from you know, the critical hit or 0 or fewer HP points being required...

If that was evil, every single thing in the game that deals hit point damage or otherwise kills the target would be evil, too.

Bandw2 wrote:
you gain power from people dying... seems pretty evil.
So a non-evil character is not allowed to loot a dead enemie's body? Because looting the target for useful items has the same result, gaining power from killing the enemy. Only Ki Leech doesn't require stripping the dead of his possessions, possibly even partially undressing him.

Partially undressing? That's some halfassed looting right there.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Derklord wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
ugh... they lose HP points, from you know, the critical hit or 0 or fewer HP points being required...

If that was evil, every single thing in the game that deals hit point damage or otherwise kills the target would be evil, too.

Bandw2 wrote:
you gain power from people dying... seems pretty evil.
So a non-evil character is not allowed to loot a dead enemie's body? Because looting the target for useful items has the same result, gaining power from killing the enemy. Only Ki Leech doesn't require stripping the dead of his possessions, possibly even partially undressing him.

you're comparing consolation prizes and protecting yourself, with an action meant to encourage hurting people to gain power.

A monk can defend himself just fine without the power, but to use the power is definitely life stealing on top of defending yourself.


Bandw2 wrote:
Frosty Ace wrote:
Why bother multiclassing with a Monk? Just use a Sansetsukon (With Crane Style)/Seven branched sword or go unarmed with Jabbing or Dragon Style. The damage will definitely be there either way.

1 level of monk gets you IUS, some random feat, probably dodge(MoMS you'll probably get a style feat instead), you need stunning fist for dragon style as well.

that's 3 feats(that you really need) for a single level dip, probably also giving you a +2 will save, and all that at the mere cost of -1 BAB.

also, if you're so inclined you get wisdom to AC now.

Hahah. Sorry. I meant to say just stay as a Monk rather than dipping cleric for the aforementioned reasons.


Torbyne wrote:
Derklord wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
ugh... they lose HP points, from you know, the critical hit or 0 or fewer HP points being required...

If that was evil, every single thing in the game that deals hit point damage or otherwise kills the target would be evil, too.

Bandw2 wrote:
you gain power from people dying... seems pretty evil.
So a non-evil character is not allowed to loot a dead enemie's body? Because looting the target for useful items has the same result, gaining power from killing the enemy. Only Ki Leech doesn't require stripping the dead of his possessions, possibly even partially undressing him.
Partially undressing? That's some halfassed looting right there.

Probably more "bare" than "half".


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Frosty Ace wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Frosty Ace wrote:
Why bother multiclassing with a Monk? Just use a Sansetsukon (With Crane Style)/Seven branched sword or go unarmed with Jabbing or Dragon Style. The damage will definitely be there either way.

1 level of monk gets you IUS, some random feat, probably dodge(MoMS you'll probably get a style feat instead), you need stunning fist for dragon style as well.

that's 3 feats(that you really need) for a single level dip, probably also giving you a +2 will save, and all that at the mere cost of -1 BAB.

also, if you're so inclined you get wisdom to AC now.

Hahah. Sorry. I meant to say just stay as a Monk rather than dipping cleric for the aforementioned reasons.

ah, my apologies.


Bandw2 wrote:
Derklord wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
ugh... they lose HP points, from you know, the critical hit or 0 or fewer HP points being required...

If that was evil, every single thing in the game that deals hit point damage or otherwise kills the target would be evil, too.

Bandw2 wrote:
you gain power from people dying... seems pretty evil.
So a non-evil character is not allowed to loot a dead enemie's body? Because looting the target for useful items has the same result, gaining power from killing the enemy. Only Ki Leech doesn't require stripping the dead of his possessions, possibly even partially undressing him.

you're comparing consolation prizes and protecting yourself, with an action meant to encourage hurting people to gain power.

A monk can defend himself just fine without the power, but to use the power is definitely life stealing on top of defending yourself.

...They're literally already dead. They're not exactly using their life force any more.


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Listen, the new Horror Adventures rules made it pretty clear.

Using Ki Leech is an evil act because it has the [evil] descriptor and draws you closer to evil alignment...

...so just get a wand of protection from evil and spam it after using it! Get drawn back to good alignment in no time.


Ventnor wrote:
zza ni wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
Barkskin is a limited duration power eating a very limited resource. Unless the duration is at least an hour/level abilities are not a substitute for items. And almost every ability the monk used to get for free all day is now a ki power that costs per use, making ki even dearer.

Ki leech.u get to use it with no ki.

On a side note about getting ur medusa wrath attacks. I know were talking about flying kick, but u get more then one special attacl.so incase ur allready in reach and even better at enogh high level to use two while full attacking.spin kick. Make one normal attack amd for the medusa extra attavks spin kicks

Isn't Ki Leech an evil spell (as in, it has the [evil] descriptor)? Pretty sure monks who regularly use it are going to end up in the "eats babies" end of the alignment pool sooner or later.

But if you follow those rules, good spells balance it out. So you can justget a protection from evil wand to maintaim your good alignment.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Sundakan wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Derklord wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
ugh... they lose HP points, from you know, the critical hit or 0 or fewer HP points being required...

If that was evil, every single thing in the game that deals hit point damage or otherwise kills the target would be evil, too.

Bandw2 wrote:
you gain power from people dying... seems pretty evil.
So a non-evil character is not allowed to loot a dead enemie's body? Because looting the target for useful items has the same result, gaining power from killing the enemy. Only Ki Leech doesn't require stripping the dead of his possessions, possibly even partially undressing him.

you're comparing consolation prizes and protecting yourself, with an action meant to encourage hurting people to gain power.

A monk can defend himself just fine without the power, but to use the power is definitely life stealing on top of defending yourself.

...They're literally already dead. They're not exactly using their life force any more.

they're not already dead actually, but the point is, you chose to feed upon their suffering.


I prefer to think my character, should I ever make one, was simply easing their suffering. ;)

Scarab Sages

Frosty Ace wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Frosty Ace wrote:
Why bother multiclassing with a Monk? Just use a Sansetsukon (With Crane Style)/Seven branched sword or go unarmed with Jabbing or Dragon Style. The damage will definitely be there either way.

1 level of monk gets you IUS, some random feat, probably dodge(MoMS you'll probably get a style feat instead), you need stunning fist for dragon style as well.

that's 3 feats(that you really need) for a single level dip, probably also giving you a +2 will save, and all that at the mere cost of -1 BAB.

also, if you're so inclined you get wisdom to AC now.

Hahah. Sorry. I meant to say just stay as a Monk rather than dipping cleric for the aforementioned reasons.

the cleric dip was to get domain strike, that way the monk is capable of placing the staggered condition on a foe and getting medusa's wrath to proc without relying some caster dedicating their life to it. I in fact think it is the need to use an unarmed strike to get the staggered condition that harms the original build, that i was questiong the weapon mix on. theoreticly they get the medusas wrath, but they only get one chance. a pure unarmed build would get four, significantly improving the odds. I keep wanting ti rerun the average damage math accounting for those odds and the ease of getting improved crit for the katana into the build and the jabbing style add on, and power attack and really do a proper comparison. I just havent had the time,


Azten wrote:
I prefer to think my character, should I ever make one, was simply easing their suffering. ;)

But is a world where the forces of alignment are absolutes, being deluded doesn't change your alignment, you're still evil anyway.


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Secret Wizard wrote:
Listen, the new Horror Adventures rules made it pretty clear.

First, I can and will not ever accept a rule that talks about "over and over again"... and then says that's equal to three.

Second, they can not simply put game changing rules into some book seven years later. A non-optional rule that drastically alters the game can only be in the CRB because everythign else is basically "use it if you want". Would such an alignment change still occur in a core-only game? Do I need to buy every single future book in case it changes basic rules?

And third, the text in Horror Adventures directly contradicts everything the CRB has to say about alignment.

"(...) it’s generally not necessary to worry too much about
whether someone is behaving differently from his stated alignment."
SO casting a little SLA shouldn't be a problem, right?

"There’s no hard and fast mechanic by which you can measure alignment—unlike hit points or skill ranks or Armor Class, alignment is solely a label the GM controls." And yet, HA tries to do exactly that by giving concrete numbers.

"It’s best to let players play their characters as they want." HA voilates this hard.

"If a character wants to change his alignment, let him—in most cases, this should amount to little more than a change of personality, or in some cases, no change at all if the alignment change was more of an adjustment to more accurately summarize how a player, in your opinion, is portraying his character."Which basically tells me it's OK to just change the alignment back to what it was every time the HA rule changes it. Note that the Game Mastery Guide says that voluntarily changing alignment should be "an extraordinary effort, not a whim".


I think Secret Wizard's post was a joke. Like HA says, three castings will change your alignment, so just cast protection from good each time you use ki leech and no alignment shifts!

But yeah, I'm taking qingong ki leech on my PFS monk and I ain't givin' shit about anyone's alignment whining. She's LN anyways, and the PF alignment system is a ridiculous joke. The path to enlightenment can take many forms, and climbing a pile of corpses is one way to do it.

People make it sound like you're killing dudes with the spell, but nope. Ki leech causes no harm whatsoever to the thing you leeched from, other than the hit that triggered it. Nothing stops you from giving them first aid later. It doesn't even trigger when you kill something, it triggers when you crit or reduce something to 0 or lower. That's not killing them, that's knocking them out!


Ki leech can be flavoured to be pretty gruesome. Perhaps the energy you drain was part of the creatures's soul and it stops following them to the afterlife. Perhaps the ki of dead creatures is supposed to go back to nature to continue a cycle.

But so can vampiric touch be flavoured that way and it doesn't have an alignment so meh.

Silver Crusade

So uh... hey guys... think we could stay on topic about Monks and not make this another alignment thread?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Aziraya Zhwan wrote:
So uh... hey guys... think we could stay on topic about Monks and not make this another alignment thread?

but that's not fun.

but yeah, you do a specific action, which makes it so you absorb the life of creature you're killing. instead of it like going all over the ground or whatever. It's obviously an extremely selfish power and only should be committed by evil monks.


Bandw2 wrote:
Aziraya Zhwan wrote:
So uh... hey guys... think we could stay on topic about Monks and not make this another alignment thread?

but that's not fun.

but yeah, you do a specific action, which makes it so you absorb the life of creature you're killing. instead of it like going all over the ground or whatever. It's obviously an extremely selfish power and only should be committed by evil monks.

Again. ki leech does not harm the target, and does not require them to be killed, only reduced to 0 or less or critted.

The Exchange

I like how this thread is making me think of using the body wraps and giving other monk build ideas.

derail:
I also love that alignment is effected so strongly by casting spells. Any character should be terrified by this. Obviously this will only come up in tough situations but its a move in the right direction.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
d'Eon wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Aziraya Zhwan wrote:
So uh... hey guys... think we could stay on topic about Monks and not make this another alignment thread?

but that's not fun.

but yeah, you do a specific action, which makes it so you absorb the life of creature you're killing. instead of it like going all over the ground or whatever. It's obviously an extremely selfish power and only should be committed by evil monks.

Again. ki leech does not harm the target, and does not require them to be killed, only reduced to 0 or less or critted.

exactly, it doesn't harm the target, by casting the spell, you've changed yourself in a way where you naturally steal the life force ebbing off of others, with your own strikes, to gain power. also, it has the evil descriptor so it's evil.


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God I hate alignment...


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Johnnycat93 wrote:
God I hate alignment...

me too


GeneticDrift wrote:

I like how this thread is making me think of using the body wraps and giving other monk build ideas.

** spoiler omitted **

On the contrary, it makes alignment much easier for the character to control. If he wants to be good, he just has to cast Protection From Evil enough times and he is Good, regardless of how else he acts.


Really the original topic is solved, Flying Kick can be the first attack in a flurry and the OP's GM is wrong. Staying on that topic would just be repetitive now.

Honestly PF needs to just dump the alignment system entirely. It's arbitrary, annoying, and just leads to dicks screwing with the paladin.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
johnlocke90 wrote:
GeneticDrift wrote:

I like how this thread is making me think of using the body wraps and giving other monk build ideas.

** spoiler omitted **

On the contrary, it makes alignment much easier for the character to control. If he wants to be good, he just has to cast Protection From Evil enough times and he is Good, regardless of how else he acts.

it's a pretty weird happening. i'm like 90% sure the intent is that like, when you use evil powers you'll become more evil and depraved and what not, but ugh... there's no rules to actually support that.

imagine if like an alignment swap gave you a permanent negative level(as in you need the proper spells to remove it). then people might care about alignment hopping or acting out of alignment.

however, I think that's a horrible design goal, specially with how vague the alignments seem to be to people.


Bandw2 wrote:
johnlocke90 wrote:
GeneticDrift wrote:

I like how this thread is making me think of using the body wraps and giving other monk build ideas.

** spoiler omitted **

On the contrary, it makes alignment much easier for the character to control. If he wants to be good, he just has to cast Protection From Evil enough times and he is Good, regardless of how else he acts.

it's a pretty weird happening. i'm like 90% sure the intent is that like, when you use evil powers you'll become more evil and depraved and what not, but ugh... there's no rules to actually support that.

imagine if like an alignment swap gave you a permanent negative level(as in you need the proper spells to remove it). then people might care about alignment hopping or acting out of alignment.

however, I think that's a horrible design goal, specially with how vague the alignments seem to be to people.

Well the faq explicitly says it applies to all aligned spells.

Look at it this way, it makes alignment much less important, which is something many of us have wanted.


johnlocke90 wrote:
BadBird wrote:

Just to note - I'm not really pushing Crusader's Flurry as some kind of supreme power-option or anything; it's an indulgence of mine because the style of it is awesome, and I'd guess it's about as good as typical pure unarmed strikes with a good style would be.

Most of the issues with a weapon on an Unchained Monk boil down to a single attack; your 1/round Style Strike can be the same attack as your 1/round Ki attack and your 1/round Stunning Fist, so it's generally a question of 1 attack out of many per round being 'left out'. Since UMonk gets full 1.5x STR as well as 1.5x Power Attack with a two-handed weapon, a weapon has even more of a natural advantage over an unarmed strike than with a normal Monk. Even if a UMonk invests in Dragon Style/Ferocity and triggers Medusa's, the strikes that don't need to be unarmed are probably going to be a fair deal more powerful with a weapon than with more fists.

If I had to guess, I'd guess that in the long run Jabbing Master and a reliable trigger to Medusa would tip the scale towards unarmed. But making all of your attacks minus one with a much more easily enhanced, higher-crit weapon at the cost of that one other strike being weaker is typically not a bad trade. Having your style open also means you can work in something else. Like maybe switching between one and two hands as needed to gain a huge AC buff off of Crane, and then exploiting that with Stylish Riposte (though I might be running out of feats at this point).

Having to split your bonuses is a big downside of this. If you want to mix attacks you are going to have to buy an amulet of mighty fists and a magic weapon.

A +3 weapon and a +2 Bodywrap of Mighty Striking is still cheaper than a +3 amulet, and Monk unarmed auto-breaches DR anyhow. It's generally not really an issue to split resources in that way.

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