Slightly off topic, but I feel like roleplaying is a dying hobby. It's been dying for a while now. It's very niche. It seems like most conventions have mostly grognards (and this is not a bad thing, it's just a thing). It's really too bad more young people haven't taken it up.
/lament
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I've seen people saying this since 3.0 came out. It's mostly grognards who have the money to attend cons, but I know the 5e community is alive and well among the kids in my area.
I think that we are seeing a shift in preferred styles of play, but that's normal. I see Pathfinder and DnD 5E going pretty strong right now.
Slightly off topic, but I feel like roleplaying is a dying hobby. It's been dying for a while now. It's very niche. It seems like most conventions have mostly grognards (and this is not a bad thing, it's just a thing). It's really too bad more young people haven't taken it up.
/lament
That's kind of my impression too. I don't have fast and hard numbers for a ton of things, but we know that there were around 25 million players of AD&D over it's lifetime.
We know that there were around 5 million players of 3e.
We don't know how many there were of 4e but we can extrapolate that it was at least a million players.
No idea how many copies of books they sell of PF, but sometimes they toss around a hint or indication of the number of copies printed from some specific book or other item which indicates that the number of sales for items are far lower than a million each.
I see it far less in stores and other areas as time goes on. It's still there, but it just seems there are less and less players as time marches on.
Magic has grown, board games have grown exponentially over the past decade, but RPGs, I think I've seen minimal growth from sales over the past few years (up from a low around 3 or 4 years ago), but nothing compared to AD&D years where during the early to mid 80s everyone played it, or even the 90s where it was still common enough to find in toy stores and sometimes department stores, or even the 3e years and the explosion of D20 and OGL material.
I freely admit, it's complete conjecture on my part, but I think it's a dying hobby in many ways as well, not quite as niche as model trains at this point, but FAR more niche than Magic and probably even comic books (those who collect the monthly comics still, or the subscribers that get comic books each month).
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It's important to keep in mind that niche doesn't mean dying so much as "not the multimillion dollar industry it was at its peak." I think the comparison to model trains is very apt, mostly because model trains, however niche their market, aren't going anywhere, you know?
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Magic has grown, board games have grown exponentially over the past decade, but RPGs, I think I've seen minimal growth from sales over the past few years (up from a low around 3 or 4 years ago), but nothing compared to AD&D years where during the early to mid 80s everyone played it, or even the 90s where it was still common enough to find in toy stores and sometimes department stores, or even the 3e years and the explosion of D20 and OGL material.
You say everyone played it, but that 'everyone' was actually a smaller subset of 'everyone'. I certainly won't say there are more people now than then, but I doubt that the hobby was that huge.
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Lets see, i own and have played
Red box series
ADD 1st
ADD 2nd
ADD 3rd
ADD 4th
Pathfinder
Runequest
Warhammer
Warhammer 2nd
Swords and Sorcery
Champions
Gurps
Fantasy Hero
Sapce hero
Merp
Rolemaster
Toon
Call of cthulu
Gamma world
Boot hill
Traveller
Paranoia
Star wars d6
Top secretAnd thats just off the top of my head.
So I guess I qualify
Let's add to that list...
Twilight 2000Aftermath
Monsters! Monsters!
ODD (original boxed set)
Every other iteration of basic D&D
Gangbusters
Chill
White Wolf (Mage, Vampire, Changeling, etc.; Usually a mashup of two or more)
Star Trek
James Bond
Star Wars d20
Star Wars Saga
Firefly
Savage Worlds (most settings)
Burning Wheel
Ghostbusters
Mechwarrior
Chivalry and Sorcery
Tunnels and Trolls
Got to say the only one from Mulgar's list I did not recognize was Merp. And I do miss Toon ... great cartoon game. Did a D&D/Toon mashup ages ago (PCs ended up in cartoonland and had to help out a cartoon dragon against an Elmer Fuddesque knight and his gooblin minions, even made cartoon drawings of the NPCs and different locations).
Stuff bought doesn't necessarily mean stuff used. I know plenty of folks who have purchased products over the years, but never used them. Do they count as gamers? How was the "AD&D 25 million players" figure constructed?
Head count at GenCon? :P
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The 80s were also rife with D&D protests by misguided church groups, along with book burnings (usually if your movement requires the burning of books, your movement is moving in the wrong direction). The purchases of the books for the book burnings I'm sure helped the sales figures a little bit.
But yes, the hobby has always been niche. In the 80s, it was very niche (D&D was played by all of us "weird kids" ... I did not see a jock playing the game until I got to college in '88). But I do see a mix of age ranges at the cons I attend. Granted there are a bunch of grognards, but there is a significant 20-something and millennial crowd at most of the cons I've been to over the last several years.
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It's important to keep in mind that niche doesn't mean dying so much as "not the multimillion dollar industry it was at its peak." I think the comparison to model trains is very apt, mostly because model trains, however niche their market, aren't going anywhere, you know?
Well, they do kinda go around in circles or ovals or something. :D
Stuff bought doesn't necessarily mean stuff used. I know plenty of folks who have purchased products over the years, but never used them. Do they count as gamers? How was the "AD&D 25 million players" figure constructed?
WotC/Hasbro research. There have been multiple discussions on how to recapture those lost 25 million players...and they have tried at times with ideas pointing towards nostalgia and reminiscences of older versions of AD&D (and D&D). The most blatant (and I would hazard a guess as biggest failure as well seeing how quickly it ended after it's release) was the 4e Red Box.
5 Million also was from WotC several years ago in discussion of 3e and players and the current base.
Unfortunately, they didn't discuss much about 4e and so all one has to go on is estimated book sales and other items.
There's even less about Paizo and Pathfinder's actual sales (I highly suspect that the rankings on certain sites do NOT take into effect subscription numbers or subscription sales, of which I am an active part of on Paizo, as are many of you I would suppose). The only indications are guesses on how many copies of something are printed, or how many copies are remaining (on the fabulous copies remaining noted during some of their sales and on a particular thread).
Slightly off topic, but I feel like roleplaying is a dying hobby. It's been dying for a while now. It's very niche. It seems like most conventions have mostly grognards (and this is not a bad thing, it's just a thing). It's really too bad more young people haven't taken it up.
/lament
We have two packed full games every Wednesday at our local FNGS, and apparently on several other nites a week.
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We must really be Grognards if we have trouble remembering where a specific table came from. :)All I remember is that Avalon Hill's Swords and Sorcery was so confusing as to be unplayable. I took it off the shelf recently to see if I was just to young to get it.
I wasn't, it was still unplayable.
Swords & Sorcery is an SPI boardgame, and it remains my favorite chit-based game of all time. I spent weeks and weeks playing solo games of it. I wrote bad fan-fiction about the world. I freaking love that game.
I don't deny that the rules are impenetrable, though.
I'd guess video killed an RPG star. I think video games have evolved to a point they are pulling away from TTRPGs. I know several years ago I was gaming with Dungeons and Dragons online and had the pleasure to listen to two youngsters talk about TTRPGs. One guy asked, "do people still play with pen and paper?" the reply was, "yeah but only in poor countries without computers and internet...."
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MERP is Middle-Earth Role-Playing -- it was ICE's simplified version of Rolemaster which took place in Middle-Earth, back when they had the Tolkien license. IMO it played much better than Rolemaster, and you always had the option of pulling out some of the more detailed charts if you just *wanted* to roll a severity D Crushing critical. They had some really nice world-building, too, to flesh out the additional things you needed to run adventures in ME, and it was always very clear what was canon and what was their embellishment.
Sadly all of ICE's worldbuilding has now gone the way of the EU.
We must really be Grognards if we have trouble remembering where a specific table came from. :)All I remember is that Avalon Hill's Swords and Sorcery was so confusing as to be unplayable. I took it off the shelf recently to see if I was just to young to get it.
I wasn't, it was still unplayable.
Swords & Sorcery is an SPI boardgame, and it remains my favorite chit-based game of all time. I spent weeks and weeks playing solo games of it. I wrote bad fan-fiction about the world. I freaking love that game.
I don't deny that the rules are impenetrable, though.
I thought he was talking about AH's Powers & Perils*, which sucked. So did Lords of Creation .
* wiki "Powers & Perils was an unfortunate failure for Avalon Hill, despite their reputation for their high-quality productions; this failure was indicative of the company's lack of experience in the roleplaying field.[1] Powers & Perils included stolen art traced from fantasy artist Frank Frazetta.[1] Avalon Hill had no previous experience with role-playing games, being primarily a producer of strategy and war games such as Tactics II, Blitzkrieg and Squad Leader, and Powers & Perils died before its time. Overpricing and strong competition from first edition Dungeons & Dragons saw P&P on store shelves at two to three times the price being asked for its contemporaries."
I'd guess video killed an RPG star. I think video games have evolved to a point they are pulling away from TTRPGs. I know several years ago I was gaming with Dungeons and Dragons online and had the pleasure to listen to two youngsters talk about TTRPGs. One guy asked, "do people still play with pen and paper?" the reply was, "yeah but only in poor countries without computers and internet...."Most "pen and paper" games I've been in these days are played with computers at the table. Tablets make for easy character sheets that save a lot of paper, and laptops can make fantastic DM screens.
I don't think there's many groups left who still use pen and paper.
Yeah that's not where this guy was going....He honestly thought why would anyone play a TTRPG when you could be playing a video game.
We must really be Grognards if we have trouble remembering where a specific table came from. :)All I remember is that Avalon Hill's Swords and Sorcery was so confusing as to be unplayable. I took it off the shelf recently to see if I was just to young to get it.
I wasn't, it was still unplayable.
Swords & Sorcery is an SPI boardgame, and it remains my favorite chit-based game of all time. I spent weeks and weeks playing solo games of it. I wrote bad fan-fiction about the world. I freaking love that game.
I don't deny that the rules are impenetrable, though.
I thought he was talking about AH's Powers & Perils*, which sucked. So did Lords of Creation .
* wiki "Powers & Perils was an unfortunate failure for Avalon Hill, despite their reputation for their high-quality productions; this failure was indicative of the company's lack of experience in the roleplaying field.[1] Powers & Perils included stolen art traced from fantasy artist Frank Frazetta.[1] Avalon Hill had no previous experience with role-playing games, being primarily a producer of strategy and war games such as Tactics II, Blitzkrieg and Squad Leader, and Powers & Perils died before its time. Overpricing and strong competition from first edition Dungeons & Dragons saw P&P on store shelves at two to three times the price being asked for its contemporaries."
yup memory failed me.
I meant powers and perils.
While not technically a grognard by most metrics (born about a decade or two too late for playing the real old-school stuff, only got to start around the 3.X era when I was in my mid-teens) I'm the closest thing to one in most of my groups because I've been aware of D&D for about as long as I can remember.
It started when I was exposed as a wee lad to Tower of Doom at an arcade (at least I think that's how it went, the memory has gotten fuzzy with time), and only grew when some years later I heard about Shadows over Mystara. To this day some of my favourite settings are those born from AD&D 2E or earlier (Mystara/Known World/Red Steel/Savage Coast/Hollow World, Dark Sun, Greyhawk, Spelljammer, Planescape, Ravenloft, sections of the Forgotten Realms that aren't overused and therefor aren't as saturated with high-level NPCs as the Dead Sea is saturated with salt).
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Heh. My current group all use laptops, except for me; I've kept to pencil and paper, because a folder with several sheets of paper (character sheet+scratch paper) is SO much easier to haul around and set up, imo.
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Heh. My current group all use laptops, except for me; I've kept to pencil and paper, because a folder with several sheets of paper (character sheet+scratch paper) is SO much easier to haul around and set up, imo.
I go P&P when im playing. I however must have a laptop/tablet when I am the GM. Its just too useful a tool not to have for a game master.
My group is using paper character sheets exclusively at the moment. The laptop in use is by GM, who's mainly using it for notes, audio, and for sending some visuals to a TV.
Of course, we're playing Dungeon World, so there's no need for character building software. You can put together the mechanics of a character in about five minutes. The collective backstory and inter-character bonds then takes another half hour (or more) of conversation with the other players and GM.
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MERP is Middle-Earth Role-Playing -- it was ICE's simplified version of Rolemaster which took place in Middle-Earth, back when they had the Tolkien license. IMO it played much better than Rolemaster, and you always had the option of pulling out some of the more detailed charts if you just *wanted* to roll a severity D Crushing critical. They had some really nice world-building, too, to flesh out the additional things you needed to run adventures in ME, and it was always very clear what was canon and what was their embellishment.
Sadly all of ICE's worldbuilding has now gone the way of the EU.
Derp. I completely forgot about that game. Only played it once or twice, but we did utilize Claw Law and Arms Law for the crit tables at many a D&D table back in the day. :)
And yeah, ICE did some solid stuff.
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Heh. My current group all use laptops, except for me; I've kept to pencil and paper, because a folder with several sheets of paper (character sheet+scratch paper) is SO much easier to haul around and set up, imo.I go P&P when im playing. I however must have a laptop/tablet when I am the GM. Its just too useful a tool not to have for a game master.
The screen on my laptop died about six months ago, so now it is just a glorified desktop, and since then I've had to be completely P&P while GMing (though not for prep).
I honestly don't miss it at all. I greatly prefer the viscerality of paper and dice.
MERP is Middle-Earth Role-Playing -- it was ICE's simplified version of Rolemaster which took place in Middle-Earth, back when they had the Tolkien license. IMO it played much better than Rolemaster, and you always had the option of pulling out some of the more detailed charts if you just *wanted* to roll a severity D Crushing critical. They had some really nice world-building, too, to flesh out the additional things you needed to run adventures in ME, and it was always very clear what was canon and what was their embellishment.
Sadly all of ICE's worldbuilding has now gone the way of the EU.
Derp. I completely forgot about that game. Only played it once or twice, but we did utilize Claw Law and Arms Law for the crit tables at many a D&D table back in the day. :)
And yeah, ICE did some solid stuff.
Tru that.
And about 10 yrs ago they put it up for sale as pdfs so i got them all again.
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Heh. My current group all use laptops, except for me; I've kept to pencil and paper, because a folder with several sheets of paper (character sheet+scratch paper) is SO much easier to haul around and set up, imo.I go P&P when im playing. I however must have a laptop/tablet when I am the GM. Its just too useful a tool not to have for a game master.
My characters and NPCs are on paper. But as a GM or player I use the laptop when I play both roles, in order to quickly look up rules, and in particular spells. Rather than write out the entire spell for my character sheets I can quickly look up the spell and its stats as both player and GM a lot faster than digging through the books. We always play at my house and I have my own little table where I set my things up, so I can keep the lap top handy without it cluttering up the rest of the area.
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Talking about computers at the table makes me feel a bit grognard-y. Until recently we always played at a friend's apartment and he didn't have wifi. If you wanted to look something up on the PFsrd, you had to use your smartphone, and hope your battery didn't run down.
Now that we don't play with that individual anymore, the player/GM who hosts has wifi and we all have tablets and smartphones, so we often look things up on on the Pathfinder app or PFsrd site instead of pulling out the books.
But I hate looking at my character sheet on my tablet. I don't like having to scroll up and down. I have a binder for each of my characters, with the sheets in page protectors. When my characters level up I print a new copy of the sheet because I despise eraser marks and whiteout. A friend created a character sheet in Microsoft Word and I modified it to my taste, so all my characters are printed out on my personal customized sheets. I also have specific dice that I use for each character.
I don't know if that makes me a grognard or just OCD about my game characters.
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But I hate looking at my character sheet on my tablet. I don't like having to scroll up and down. I have a binder for each of my characters, with the sheets in page protectors. When my characters level up I print a new copy of the sheet because I despise eraser marks and whiteout. A friend created a character sheet in Microsoft Word and I modified it to my taste, so all my characters are printed out on my personal customized sheets. I also have specific dice that I use for each character.
I do, too. I use a binder for my only 2 player characters (I'm the GM 98% of the time) and I hate keeping my character sheet on the computer. I also have a Microsoft Word created character sheet that I customized to my own tastes (I hate the official sheets and I lack the Excel knowledge to use one of those). When I level up, I update the character on the computer then print it out. Maybe there's some mind-sharing going on between us.. lol
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If you're one of them and of a certain mindset, it's a badge of honor, distinguished them from the whippersnappers of today.
Guess it's exactly this definition which directly leads to the term being used by others in a pejorative way.
Because it's actually quite arrogant to think that just being old makes you deserving of an badge of honor. And it's this arrogance which gets reflected also on those who didn't mean to be when describing themselves as a grognard.
Says someone who has just yesterday used the term "whippersnappers".
And just for the record, according to the definition given by the OP, I'm probably a bit to late to be a D&D grognard. I played AD&D but not when it first came out.
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If you're one of them and of a certain mindset, it's a badge of honor, distinguished them from the whippersnappers of today.Guess it's exactly this definition which directly leads to the term being used by others in a pejorative way.
Because it's actually quite arrogant to think that just being old makes you deserving of an badge of honor. And it's this arrogance which gets reflected also on those who didn't mean to be when describing themselves as a grognard.
just being old DOES make you deserving of an badge of honor. You have survived. Hardly arrogance.
Also, playing for a long time is a honor too. Of course, as I have said, just because I was playing D&D back in Year 1 doesnt make me any more of a expert on the PF rules than someone who has been playing just a couple of years.
BUT it does give one a unique set of experiences to draw on when talking about PLAYER behavior.
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BUT it does give one a unique set of experiences to draw on when talking about PLAYER behavior.
Don't get me wrong it's not that I want to argue against you being more experienced than, let's say, me. Though I'm not sure if those ten years you have over me, as far as the game of roleplaying is concerned, really make a difference when talking about player behavior.
Still I think that your contribution to the game (in form of the thief) is much more worthy of a badge of honor than "having survived". I mean I also have survived from a time before D&D was published and I'll probably survive the next 40 years as well, but that's only an achievement if you're living in a third-world-country where most people die before they reach my age.
It's like with the charter subscriber tag. I wore it proudly as long as I had it, but it definitely didn't make me think of myself as being somehow better than all those people joining later. And while I regret having lost it, it still doesn't change the fact that I was a regular at these boards before the whole Pathfinder business started, so in the end, it means nothing (apart from the personal satisfaction to wear it).
So if you're just saying: "I'm a grognard." as in: "I was there when it all began." I actally might envy you a bit for that. But if you mean it as in: "I was there before you, so I know more, am more and you better keep your mouth shut when I'm talking." I call this arrogant and condescendent. And unluckily, this set of mind is no rarity, neither in the roleplaying community, neither elsewhere.
And using the terms "grognard" and "whippersnapper" in the same sentence can never be interpreted as the first meaning. I don't think anyone in this thread (especially not thejeff) is really thinking this way, but it still rubs me the wrong way to see it.
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BUT it does give one a unique set of experiences to draw on when talking about PLAYER behavior.Don't get me wrong it's not that I want to argue against you being more experienced than, let's say, me. Though I'm not sure if those ten years you have over me, as far as the game of roleplaying is concerned, really make a difference when talking about player behavior.
Still I think that your contribution to the game (in form of the thief) is much more worthy of a badge of honor than "having survived". I mean I also have survived from a time before D&D was published and I'll probably survive the next 40 years as well, but that's only an achievement if you're living in a third-world-country where most people die before they reach my age.
It's like with the charter subscriber tag. I wore it proudly as long as I had it, but it definitely didn't make me think of myself as being somehow better than all those people joining later. And while I regret having lost it, it still doesn't change the fact that I was a regular at these boards before the whole Pathfinder business started, so in the end, it means nothing (apart from the personal satisfaction to wear it).
So if you're just saying: "I'm a grognard." as in: "I was there when it all began." I actally might envy you a bit for that. But if you mean it as in: "I was there before you, so I know more, am more and you better keep your mouth shut when I'm talking." I call this arrogant and condescendent. And unluckily, this set of mind is no rarity, neither in the roleplaying community, neither elsewhere.
And using the terms "grognard" and "whippersnapper" in the same sentence can never be interpreted as the first meaning. I don't think anyone in this thread (especially not thejeff) is really thinking this way, but it still rubs me the wrong way to see it.
Well I do expect you to shut your mouth whem i'm talking. It's quite rude and disrespectful to talk over someone.
Then again I'm a teacher......
And using the terms "grognard" and "whippersnapper" in the same sentence can never be interpreted as the first meaning. I don't think anyone in this thread (especially not thejeff) is really thinking this way, but it still rubs me the wrong way to see it.
<cranky old man voice>Oh now see here, you whippersnapper, if you speak with the appropriate voice to relay the fact you are not being serious, I believe you can, as a proper grognard, say both grognard and whippersnapper in the same sentence without being ... sounding ... what was I saying? Who are you? Gitoffamylawn!!!</cranky old man voice> ;)
EDIT: and an appropriately themed alias can be helpful in that vein as well. ;)
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Well I do expect you to shut your mouth whem i'm talking. It's quite rude and disrespectful to talk over someone.
Sure, but it is quite rude and disrespectful no matter where this someone is. Meaning that it would be equally so to do for a teacher with one of their pupils (used to be a teacher myself for some time, so I know that it's easier said than done).
<cranky old man voice>Oh now see here, you whippersnapper, if you speak with the appropriate voice to relay the fact you are not being serious, I believe you can, as a proper grognard, say both grognard and whippersnapper in the same sentence without being ... sounding ... what was I saying? Who are you? Gitoffamylawn!!!</cranky old man voice> ;)
EDIT: and an appropriately themed alias can be helpful in that vein as well. ;)
Actually thought about to declare this as the one exception to what I said, so yeah.
Note that I was deliberately using an extreme definition in that post
Sorry for having taken this a bit out of context, I didn't mean to imply that you share this opinion and didn't even imagine that it could be taken this way.
I probably consider myself a grognard, but in my view that makes me less authoritative on how RPGs are played nowadays.
Part of grognardism seems to me to involve relishing the past. Although clearly not determinative, I reckon that trait correlates with not moving with the times.
If you're one of them and of a certain mindset, it's a badge of honor, distinguished them from the whippersnappers of today.Guess it's exactly this definition which directly leads to the term being used by others in a pejorative way.
Because it's actually quite arrogant to think that just being old makes you deserving of an badge of honor. And it's this arrogance which gets reflected also on those who didn't mean to be when describing themselves as a grognard.
Says someone who has just yesterday used the term "whippersnappers".
And just for the record, according to the definition given by the OP, I'm probably a bit to late to be a D&D grognard. I played AD&D but not when it first came out.
Exactly. You are not a grognard yet. If you were one, you would understand. Now get off my lawn!