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Exactly. You are not a grognard yet. If you were one, you would understand. Now get off my lawn!
To be honest, I don't even want to be one. Because as I see it, everything I hold dear about roleplaying games wasn't even there or in a very raw state of development, when I started playing the game. And while I do appreciate the foundation of the game, I would never want to go back to play in a time before the Grey Box (first edition of the Forgotten Realms for those who are even younger than me ^^)was published. YMMV, of course.
Won't probably stop me to give the grognard here in Germany for our very own rpg (DSA (The dark Eye), now in it's fifth edition, but I was there when it all started in 1984 ). Though as with D&D, I don't terribly miss those times, because the single one positive thing that could be said about DSA 1 was that it was very easy to learn.
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My question is at what point to you become a grognard? I've been playing since 1985 and am 53 years old. I started with AD&D 1e. Does this qualify me for grognard-ship? Do I have to wait another 10 years? I'm so confused.
I'm not sure I do those things. If I do I was unaware of it. I try to not compare things to the old ways because I like PF better than the older systems (though I do have a fondness for 1e because that's where I started) but I wouldn't go back to it. I guess I let things slip through from time to time, though.
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My question is at what point to you become a grognard? I've been playing since 1985 and am 53 years old. I started with AD&D 1e. Does this qualify me for grognard-ship? Do I have to wait another 10 years? I'm so confused.
When you say to the rest of your table "well, obviously I can do that because the system works like this..." and they look at you blankly because you are referencing an RPG rulebook that was out of print before they were born.
Or if you nod in appreciation when someone mentions one-legged duck bandits / TTYF / THAC0 / insert other antiquated RPG reference.
It's not actually fair representation of self-proclaimed grognards any more than "painting the target as a hopeless old fogey, dreaming of his lost youth and shouting "get off my lawn"" is a fair picture of what others mean by the term.
GITOFFAMYLAWN!!!
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BUT it does give one a unique set of experiences to draw on when talking about PLAYER behavior.Don't get me wrong it's not that I want to argue against you being more experienced than, let's say, me. Though I'm not sure if those ten years you have over me, as far as the game of roleplaying is concerned, really make a difference when talking about player behavior.
Still I think that your contribution to the game (in form of the thief) is much more worthy of a badge of honor than "having survived".
So if you're just saying: "I'm a grognard." as in: "I was there when it all began." I actally might envy you a bit for that. But if you mean it as in: "I was there before you, so I know more, am more and you better keep your mouth shut when I'm talking." I call this arrogant and condescendent. And unluckily, this set of mind is no rarity, neither in the roleplaying community, neither elsewhere.
Ten years? No. But if someone has forty years moire, then perhaps he or shee might have seen more tables and odd behaviour, no?
Thanks.
Well, yes, you're right, which is why even the Gronardiest of us should never say anything like : "I was there before you, so I know more, am more and you better keep your mouth shut when I'm talking."
But saying that perhaps, maybe you should CONSIDER our advice in light of our experience, that's not being arrogant. I can be wrong, James Jacobs can be wrong, the newest newb can be right.
However, you also have to remember that posts on a MB are hard to read. You cant read a tone of voice, the grin, the twinkle in a eye, etc, so it's far too easy to assume a post which is posted with all those things is arrogant and condescending.
That's what emoticons are for. :)
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See I don't view grognardism as being anything more that an indicator that one has a depth of previous experience to draw from. This does not mean that the person knows what they are talking about, mind you, just that they are pulling from a wider range of experiences than someone who has just started playing.
As to when someone can claim to be a grognard, that's really up to the individual. You may have been playing for 40 years and not claim to be a grognard, or you could have been playing for 10 and claim to be. really, it's more of a mindset of how one perceives their level of experience (and with RPGs, it's really cross system experience ... after all, as far as I am concerned, if you have pulled content from one system to incorporate into another system that kinda puts you into Grognardland).
I don't know, but I think a key element to grognardism is stating, repeatedly, that things that were done in the past, by folks like you, were in some way more poignant, rewarding, meaningful, than similar things done by similar people today.
Not quite. Not that they were BETTER, it's just that D&D was just as much fun with the Three Volume set as with all the myriad complexities of 3.5, 4th and PF.
(To a extent of course, Gygax and co did do stuff more meaningful, as we all have built on their foundation)
And of course, that by and large Players are about the same today. So when some "Richard" plays a CN and steals from the party and ruins the set ups, you know it has nothing to do with them putting "CN" on their sheet (even those they claim "I was just playing my alignment)and everything to do with the fact they they are a immature jerk. And that you cant solve OOC issues like that IC.
That sitting down and talking about it, in a non confrontational way, like adults, is what works.
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if you have pulled content from one system to incorporate into another system that kinda puts you into Grognardland).
Dammit, now you've got me.
But saying that perhaps, maybe you should CONSIDER our advice in light of our experience, that's not being arrogant. I can be wrong, James Jacobs can be wrong, the newest newb can be right.
Absolutely. I mean, I have seen EGG himself argue against things with a verve, that are nowadays absolute standard. Reading the old Dragon Mags made me chuckle quite some times, but he has also said a lot (more) of things that are true to this day. I also have disagreed with JJ from time to time, but that doesn't mean that I ever would dismiss anything he said without at least giving it a thought.
Maybe I'm just a bit sensitive with this topic as I have some scars left from some contacts with people from the OSR scene. People who actually thought that everything was better then and that you had to be an idiot if you had another opinion about it.
However, you also have to remember that posts on a MB are hard to read. You cant read a tone of voice, the grin, the twinkle in a eye, etc, so it's far too easy to assume a post which is posted with all those things is arrogant and condescending.
Yeah, that's why I normally ask how something is meant if I'm not sure about it.
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How many grogs would a grognard nard if a grognard could nard grogs?
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MERP is Middle-Earth Role-Playing -- it was ICE's simplified version of Rolemaster which took place in Middle-Earth, back when they had the Tolkien license. IMO it played much better than Rolemaster, and you always had the option of pulling out some of the more detailed charts if you just *wanted* to roll a severity D Crushing critical. They had some really nice world-building, too, to flesh out the additional things you needed to run adventures in ME, and it was always very clear what was canon and what was their embellishment.
Sadly all of ICE's worldbuilding has now gone the way of the EU.
Oh, I remember RoleMaseter and MERP...
We tried to run a MERP campaign once when I was in college in the late '80s. I came to really hate the system. It always seems that one round of combat consisted of rolling dice and looking up the results on multiple tables, which was generally very tedious.
(Roll to hit and consult the hit success table! Now roll on the hit location table! Now roll damage! Now roll to see if it's a critical hit! Now roll on the critical effect table! Now roll the extra critical damage! Now make your defense roll to see if you have any broken bones! Now roll to see if your armor got damaged! Now rioll to see how much damage your armor took! Now roll because rolling dice is fun...)
After four sessions, we went back to D&D.
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How many grogs would a grognard nard if a grognard could nard grogs?
Oh that's an easy one, a grogillion. Though back in my day we would nard a grogilliion grogs easily in an hour. You whippersnappers have it easy with your "messaging boards" and "Facks" (whatever those are); cuts down on the amount of grogs you have to nard. I even heard tell some don't even know how to grog a nard! It's all just a ... a ... what are you doing here? Who let you in? Gitoffamylawn!!!
My question is at what point to you become a grognard? I've been playing since 1985 and am 53 years old. I started with AD&D 1e. Does this qualify me for grognard-ship? Do I have to wait another 10 years? I'm so confused.When you say to the rest of your table "well, obviously I can do that because the system works like this..." and they look at you blankly because you are referencing an RPG rulebook that was out of print before they were born.
Or if you nod in appreciation when someone mentions one-legged duck bandits / TTYF / THAC0 / insert other antiquated RPG reference.
I usually end up asking, does it work like this or this or this or this.
Because I have so many different rules in this head of mine, I sometimes pull out the wrong edition rules by mistake.And ducks were awesome, you're just to young to get them, lol
THACO was the bomb, well at least it was in it's time.
MERP is Middle-Earth Role-Playing -- it was ICE's simplified version of Rolemaster which took place in Middle-Earth, back when they had the Tolkien license. IMO it played much better than Rolemaster, and you always had the option of pulling out some of the more detailed charts if you just *wanted* to roll a severity D Crushing critical. They had some really nice world-building, too, to flesh out the additional things you needed to run adventures in ME, and it was always very clear what was canon and what was their embellishment.
Sadly all of ICE's worldbuilding has now gone the way of the EU.
Oh, I remember RoleMaseter and MERP...
We tried to run a MERP campaign once when I was in college in the late '80s. I came to really hate the system. It always seems that one round of combat consisted of rolling dice and looking up the results on multiple tables, which was generally very tedious.
(Roll to hit and consult the hit success table! Now roll on the hit location table! Now roll damage! Now roll to see if it's a critical hit! Now roll on the critical effect table! Now roll the extra critical damage! Now make your defense roll to see if you have any broken bones! Now roll to see if your armor got damaged! Now rioll to see how much damage your armor took! Now roll because rolling dice is fun...)
After four sessions, we went back to D&D.
Some of us old grognards enjoyed that game. I even have HARP witch is kinda like rolemaster lite. Fewer tables by far. Still a lot of customization.
Yes but I bet none of you played Fanta-Z-1, published in 1980
I believe that only 50 copies were printed, and I have one of them for a very stupid reason
Alright, Fess up, why do you have one of them?
Being a grognard is, to me, about having seen the RPG field change over time, from its humble beginnings, through various paradigms, and having played a rather large number of games and a very large number of sessions. What it gives you is an understanding of the process and why the rules are as they are, and the common problems that show up.
Being conceited and ignoring what people say because they are not grognards is entirely optional, and a bad idea. Bright people should always be welcome, and they can be taught if you try. Not to mention, if it were just us grognards, we'd stagnate the hobby pretty massively.
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How many grogs would a grognard nard if a grognard could nard grogs?
Are we playing Ars Magica here, because some of our grogs in that could do serious damage to your nards...
My friend Robert Henegar and I were the authors and I only kept one copy. We sold the rest at a comic book convention in Long Beach, California in the summer of 1980Alright, Fess up, why do you have one of them?Yes but I bet none of you played Fanta-Z-1, published in 1980
I believe that only 50 copies were printed, and I have one of them for a very stupid reason
OK, this takes a couple of steps...
Would the Turb of Grogs kiss them and make them better?
I.e., "give me some sugar, baby."
Turb'n'nardo Sugar.
>runs laughing into the area of dim light to hide<
My friend Robert Henegar and I were the authors and I only kept one copy. We sold the rest at a comic book convention in Long Beach, California in the summer of 1980Alright, Fess up, why do you have one of them?Yes but I bet none of you played Fanta-Z-1, published in 1980
I believe that only 50 copies were printed, and I have one of them for a very stupid reason
That's not embarrassing, that's awesome! I still have piles and piles of my mini comics that I never managed to sell; that's embarrassing.
You're lucky. About a decade ago, I got the Far Future Enterprises reprint of the 9 "core" books of the original Classic Traveller. I wanted to get the reprint of the adventures. (I was especially curious to see exactly how the "Secret of the Ancients" was revealed.) But it was no longer available.
Adventure 12: Secret of the Ancients is available in PDF form on their Classic Traveller CD. That's how I got my copy.
Huh. That CD must have come out shortly after I had lost interest. Or at least, I hope so. I didn't find such a thing back when I was looking.
I had been under the impression that "grognard" was a dismissive and somewhat ageist term, and thus I try not to use it. Am I mistaken?Yes you are mistaken, it is a badge of honor.
Hm.
Sure doesn't seem that way when used by folks who don't self-identify as such. But I'm glad to see this thread is going in a more positive direction than I first feared when I saw the thread title.
Carry on, then.
:)
Seems to me that the term used to be hung on any older player too inflexible and bitter to adapt to changes to systems (or certain new systems or game types) without at least constant complaining, if not outright rejection of same. The sort of secondary definition was somebody old enough to have been playing when many of the games and gaming conventions we take for granted, were first introduced.
Whether a person fits the first definition is largely objective. You can see them acting that way. (That is not to make any judgment on whether they are right or wrong in their opinions).
Whether a person fits the second definition is relative to their age and length of experience in the gaming community. I, for instance, already fit the second definition back when I first heard the term, because I was already a mini-painting, map-making freak before 1st Edition AD&D hit its greatest heights.
And by that definition I began to humorously refer to myself as a grognard some time back. But I have never identified with the original definition. I don't as a rule automatically like or dislike any new development out of some weird devotion to the good old days (even though I have very fond memories of those days). I tend to approach new things without the baggage.
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I've been called the Youngest Grognard, since I've been playing AD&D 2nd Ed since I was like six with my dad.
I'm also grouchy, have a low tolerance for teenagers and their hip hop, and have a penchant for telling people to go f@&% themselves, so I'm definitely in "grumpy old man territory". :)
There's a ton of older official D&D material for sale at DriveThruRPG. It's certainly not everything (particularly no in-print 5e stuff), but it's a lot! OD&D, BECI, AD&D(1e & 2e), and more recent D&D 3.0, 3.5, & 4e.
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I've been called the Youngest Grognard, since I've been playing AD&D 2nd Ed since I was like six with my dad.
I'm in this boat with you here. After I started being 10 years old, I taught my friends, and we played through primary and secondary school. Then I went off to college and taught a bunch of folks I met there. Every decade I have lived, I have brought folks into the hobby, and I expect that trend to continue. Most recently, I took folks who were already playing 5E and convinced them to try Pathfinder. This recent experience has been super rewarding, because they already know the 'basics', and thus are more inclined to tolerate me and my extensive house rules documents.
I mostly DM, but when I play, I like to play a Rogue and use good old problem-solving strategies to survive. Plus I can fit my lucky dice, folded sheet, and golf pencil all in my pocket.
