Anyone know when you die in a cloudkill? What I mean is, the spell reads "These vapors automatically kill...", but are you subject to these effects immediately upon the spell being cast upon you? What if you move through it? Wave a hand through it? What if you're on a moving ship and the movement of the ship sweeps the cloudkill through the entire crew? Does EVERYONE die? Is there a certain amount of time you must be in for this spell to automatically kill you? Do you only die if you're in the cloud on the caster's turn?
Bonus Round: How do you DMs deal with this spell affecting conflicts on a regional or world-wide scale?
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Cloudkill only kills you if you have 6 or less HD. If you have 7 or more then it causes con damage instead.
If you move through the area of the spell effect it affects you, either killing you or causing you to take con damage.
The spell isn't cast on anyone, it's cast and causes a "fog" cloud of poisonous vapors to roll forth from the caster.
If a ship goes through the cloud, everyone on the ship that is exposed to the cloud (the cloud wouldn't penetrate closed doors or other parts of the ship so were basically just talking about people on the main deck) would die if below the HD threshold or need to make saves against con damage.
As far as the spell on a regional or world wide level, it's a 5th level spell. That means a 9th level wizard to cast it. 9th level wizards are relatively rare, so not that many people available to cast them.
The spell also can only affect a relatively limited area. It's a 20ft radius spread that lasts for 1 minute per level. At 20th level it would travel only 2000ft over the course of that 20 minutes. So about .4 of a mile. You could damage a city, and kill a lot of people. But so could a lot of other spells too. It would also be relatively easy to avoid if someone noticed it since you could pretty easily get out of the way.
Ah, thanks for the clarifications. I had thought it was cast only on a person, not on a space. Knowing that it only has the potential to kill creatures with 6HD or less helps, too. Thanks. :)
If you move through the area of the spell effect it affects you, either killing you or causing you to take con damage.
So this part is a bit less explicit. I'll repeat, "a bit less explicit." I see the lines you're reading between, but I feel that many people could treat that as an interpretation. The con damage part is specifically called out. This uses the word "automatic" which isn't quite so loaded a keyword.
Also, you say that moving through it causes you to take con damage. THe spell seems to explicitly disagree with you, which is why I'm having a hard time adjudicating when this effect kicks in.
"in which case it takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage on your turn each round while in the cloud"
If a ship goes through the cloud, everyone on the ship that is exposed to the cloud (the cloud wouldn't penetrate closed doors or other parts of the ship so were basically just talking about people on the main deck) would die if below the HD threshold or need to make saves against con damage.
This is the crux of my question. You say this because you took the stance I did that any part of you being in the cloud for a minuscule fraction of a second causes the death part, but, again, I'm not positive that's explicitly stated in the text. Or not. I'm not certain either way.
As far as the spell on a regional or world wide level, it's a 5th level spell. That means a 9th level wizard to cast it. 9th level wizards are relatively rare, so not that many people available to cast them.
Ha, not in Golarion. xD Also, realistically, not in a 9th+ level campaign. In order to be challenged, the PCs are going to continually meet people well above this. If one assumes a homogeneous or at least similar saturation of power throughout the world as is concentrated at the PCs' point of existence, well...
I guess this supposes the PCs aren't special snowflakes. I know some people do do that.
The spell also can only affect a relatively limited area. It's a 20ft radius spread that lasts for 1 minute per level. At 20th level it would travel only 2000ft over the course of that 20 minutes. So about .4 of a mile. You could damage a city, and kill a lot of people. But so could a lot of other spells too. It would also be relatively easy to avoid if someone noticed it since you could pretty easily get out of the way.
Yeah, but as you saw, this spell would easily cripple seabound commerce. Cast en masse upon an army that is, well, massed (say at the gates or outside the wall) and it would be pretty destructive, too. So while I agree that the level requirements and slow speed and relatively small volume of effect do limit it, I feel like there are plenty of unaddressed parameters that could still be fairly world-altering, yeah?
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Yes, even on Golarion 9th level spell casters are relatively rare. Just because the PCs often encounter entities above that doesn't make them common. It just means PCs deal with a lot of uncommon stuff.
The majority of the world of Golarion is made up of people 6th level or below and the majority of them are NPC classes, not PCs classes. You're thinking too much from a player-centric point of view. You can't assume a homogeneous saturation of power levels, that is inherently incorrect. There have actually been many discussion on the forums here about what the general population of Golarion looks like, and you are making incorrect assumptions about it.
As for "crippling a sea based commerce" city, maybe but not very likely. Remember, the fog moves only 10ft per round. As soon as a few people start dying and someone notices it, everybody simply goes "Hey, don't go in there, you'll die". "Cast en masse" in a super unlikely thing to occur, a single wizard only has so many casting of spell per day and with the slow moving rate and small size of the cloud you're only going to get a few people at time. Sure, you can wipe out a squad. You're not wiping out an amassed army of thousands with it alone. It's dangerous, and deadly. But unlikely to cause major damage to any substantial city or army on it's own, but being a wizard you have a lot of other tricks you could combine it with. If you really want an effective way to take on army a few 1st level wizards with wands of fireball will be dealing 5d6 points of damage which will kill most low level creatures in a single casting, even with saves. If you really want world altering, permanent teleportation circles are way more world altering than using Cloudkill.
In Golarion in order to avoid the old FR affect the game assumes there are not too many people above level 9.
The reason for "on your turn" language is because the writing assumes the spell is cast onto an area that you occupy.
However there is nothing that stops it from also following the poison rules, and it is a poison. By the poison rules you make a save as soon as you come into contact with the poison, and you make a save on your turn.
If you walk through the vapor you will be affected, and holding your breath does not protect you.
If you only had to make a save on your turn then you would not have to make a save upon the initial casting of the spell, and yet the spell says nothing about a delayed save for spell, nor a delayed save to counter the normal poison rules.
edit:I forget the exact level that most NPC's cap out at but it is lower than most PC's will reach. I am sure it is in the single digits.
So this part is a bit less explicit. I'll repeat, "a bit less explicit." I see the lines you're reading between, but I feel that many people could treat that as an interpretation. The con damage part is specifically called out. This uses the word "automatic" which isn't quite so loaded a keyword.
Also, you say that moving through it causes you to take con damage. THe spell seems to explicitly disagree with you, which is why I'm having a hard time adjudicating when this effect kicks in.
"in which case it takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage on your turn each round while in the cloud"
Was it your turn and were you at any point in the cloud? Moving through the cloud on your turn qualifies, and you're affected by the cloud. Depending on HD it can mean instant death or con damage. The rest is to let you know in happens again if you're still in the cloud.
Remember, this is a cloud of poison-like stuff. It affects you even if you don't breath it in because it states holding your breath doesn't work but poison immunity does. So it's basically some sort of contact poison. If you come in contact with the cloud of poison, it affects you.
Was it your turn and were you at any point in the cloud? Moving through the cloud on your turn qualifies, and you're affected by the cloud.
I can't believe that one got by me. <facepalm @ myself>
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It does raise an interesting corner case of being on a moving vehicle (such as a ship) where the ship is moving at a substantial enough speed that you are moved through the cloud when it is not your turn such that you don't have a turn while you are in the cloud. So you could technically argue by RAW that you aren't affected, however I think it's sort of a nonsensical corner case where the spell is intended to affect anything it touches (as a sort of contact poison).
Sometimes rules have weird interactions and RAW is not god and leads to interesting/weird results if you try to run games by RAW.
I prefer to try to use common sense in situations like this and would liken the spell to contact poison (as already mentioned) such that coming it contact with it affects you once for each round of contact with it.
@Claxon
I am actually, literally astonished to hear that it has been officially decreed (I assume?) that Golarion is a world populated as you described. My reading of the stats thrown on the PRD indicate a vastly different world than that. I feel like that's something they *said*, because that's what they want, even if it's not supported by the actual stats they're throwing out, though I will be the first to admit that my reading and understanding of their lore and literature is far from complete (because I hate hate hate HATE Golarion so much, though that's another topic), so I could just be completely wrong.
Regardless, my thoughts on the topic are for a world a little less...PC-Movie-Centric, where the PCs aren't the only special snowflakes moving around and aren't being challenged by the only people capable of challenging them. While I described the homogeneous level saturation, I wasn't saying that's what I'm dealing with, simply that if one were to do that, it would be even crazier than what I had thought Golarion was. Imagine, instead, a world between "Golarion" and Faerún, with a level assortment of...maybe a bell curve centered on 6th level or so. The majority of people would fall in the level 8 or below category, but there would be plenty of people capable of doing more than that worldwide. Also, yes, I realize a bellcurve is not an accurate representation of level statistics worldwide, but I don't know how to describe a more accurate curve with words. :) More up on the left side and down on the right, with some squiggles and shady parts. ;)
However there is nothing that stops it from also following the poison rules, and it is a poison. By the poison rules you make a save as soon as you come into contact with the poison, and you make a save on your turn.
If you walk through the vapor you will be affected, and holding your breath does not protect you.
If you only had to make a save on your turn then you would not have to make a save upon the initial casting of the spell, and yet the spell says nothing about a delayed save for spell, nor a delayed save to counter the normal poison rules.
I hear what you're putting down, but this isn't actually supported by the RAW. I have some very strict, by the book types in my group, and what you're describing is very much a houserule. A logical and intuitive one, yes, and one that logically follows, but not RAW, nonetheless.
So where, if at all, in the text does it say that simply touching the cloud immediately kills you, even for a brief millisecond of contact? Is that how we interpret the "automatic" part of the spell's text?
Was it your turn and were you at any point in the cloud? Moving through the cloud on your turn qualifies, and you're affected by the cloud. Depending on HD it can mean instant death or con damage. The rest is to let you know in happens again if you're still in the cloud.
I'm the dungeon master. It was the party's wizard that used the spell. Killed three encounter's worth of NPCs in one casting, and trivialized an adventure module's boss fight in another. It was glorious, honestly. I was very proud of them. My problem isn't with that particular performance, however, or with any heretofore committed acts, but with how the spell works in general. This is pirate campaign, and I'm struggling with how their next shipboard combat results in anything but mass, instantaneous slaughter of both ships' entire crews in the first round of combat due to this spell. I want to ensure that I have a good handle on how the rules work, how they should work, and how they will work so that the next session runs smoothly with minimal rules lookup. I'm also worried about the campaign coming to a screeching halt due to the group losing their crew after every single fight-worth-mentioning as they pirate the high seas.
Remember, this is a cloud of poison-like stuff. It affects you even if you don't breath it in because it states holding your breath doesn't work but poison immunity does. So it's basically some sort of contact poison. If you come in contact with the cloud of poison, it affects you.
But does it affect you if it touches the nail of your pinky finger? Is there a saturation point that must be reached? A certain amount of surface area of skin that must be covered? I know I'm being overly pedantic, but, again, I DM for three engineers who WILL tell me the amount of time real chlorine gas takes to break down someone's body if I pause for a split second because I don't have immediate rulings ready to go.
I get the message you're putting down. I just want to ensure either that it's supported by the RAW as described in the spell, or that it is a logical interpretation of it. I don't care which it is; I just need to know whether it's fact, opinion, or opinion of fact so I can roll it adroitly when the time comes.
Sometimes rules have weird interactions and RAW is not god and leads to interesting/weird results if you try to run games by RAW.
I agree with this line most of all, however, it can create a fractious table if half of the group disagrees, especially when it's a life or death situation, or they're just serious sticklers about the rules.
Sorry for being so picky and overly pedantic. Again, I just need these ducks in a row so I can shoot them quickly. Nothing slows a session down and raises tension like arguing rules midsession. ><
On the topic of the level of NPC's.
Remember that the VAST MAJORITY of the people of Golarion aren't high level. Most of them are 5th level or lower, with their levels skewing toward the low end, and most of them are NPC classes. Furthermore, the thing that's really deadly about Smuggler's Shiv that causes its reputation isn't the power of the monsters and dangers on the island as much as it is the deadly nature of the surrounding waters. The island is avoided because it kills the hell out of most ships that get too close, and as such it's developed a reputation.
What I said about poison is very much supported by the rules. Cloudkill is a conjuration spell that creates a poisonous cloud. Now since your friends are very much by the book I am going to assume that they know the a rule is in play unless the book says a rule is not in play.
Going back to the school of conjuration it is importation to understand how it differs from evocation. If evocation creates fire or poison then it will be magical poison. Conjuration can create something, but the thing it creates is not magical. That is why spells from that school ignore SR(spell resistance). So this poison cloud created by this has no rules exceptions for how it works with regard to making the initial save.This is from an official Paizo blog on poison because how it worked had people confused.
1. Whenever a character is exposed to a poison (regardless of method), that character gets a saving throw to negate the poison.4. Unless the poison has an onset time, the character takes the effect of the poison every time he fails a saving throw against the poison, even when additional doses are inflicted.
There is no onset time for the poison from cloudkill
The part about the immediate save is due to you coming into contact with it. If you walk through a gas based poison you are subject to the effect. Generally they(inhaled poisons) are thrown at you, but cloudkill is just there. If you walk through the spell or if it goes through your space you are subject to the affect. The "automatically" wording is there to say the creatures with 3 HD or less do not get a save. They just outright die.
The reason it has the info about subsequent saves on your turn is not because it is a new rule. They just had to explain what happened on the following turns and reminder text never hurt anyone.
PS: Reminder text is when a rule that is somewhere else in the book is stated again for convenience.
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Cloudkill appears to work a bit different from most icky cloud spells. Most of those do bad stuff during the turns of occupants. But Cloudkill is specific on when it happens:
This spell generates a bank of fog, similar to a fog cloud, except that its vapors are yellowish green and poisonous. These vapors automatically kill any living creature with 3 or fewer HD (no save). A living creature with 4 to 6 HD is slain unless it succeeds on a Fortitude save (in which case it takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage on your turn each round while in the cloud).
A living creature with 6 or more HD takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage on your turn each round while in the cloud (a successful Fortitude save halves this damage). Holding one's breath doesn't help, but creatures immune to poison are unaffected by the spell.
It stands to reason that 3HD creatures and creatures in the 4-6HD range that fail saves would also suffer on the same schedule as the more fortunate individuals: on your turn.
That actually means that it's possible to dash through a Cloudkill without damage/death, as long as you're out of it before the caster's turn. On the other hand, on the caster's turn when the cloud moves, it could cover people and immediately hurt them.
@Claxon
I am actually, literally astonished to hear that it has been officially decreed (I assume?) that Golarion is a world populated as you described. My reading of the stats thrown on the PRD indicate a vastly different world than that. I feel like that's something they *said*, because that's what they want, even if it's not supported by the actual stats they're throwing out, though I will be the first to admit that my reading and understanding of their lore and literature is far from complete (because I hate hate hate HATE Golarion so much, though that's another topic), so I could just be completely wrong.
You're reading of stats on the PRD indicate it's populated differently, from what source?
Based on the entry for spell casting services it is required to have a large city for someone in the town to be able to cast 5th or 6th level spells. A large city has a population of more than 10,000. It's the second largest size of city.
Most settlements are far smaller than a large city.
IIRC, James Jacobs (lead creative designer) stated that the majority of the worlds inhabitants were less than level 6 and were NPC classes, not PC classes. The stats that they put out do not represent the "normal" inhabitants of the world. Those NPCs that the PCs fight are just as unique as the PCs themselves.
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If there's anything Hell's Vengeance taught me, it's that roughly 5% of the population of Cheliax must be Paladins of level 8+. I assume the eventual AP in Nex will show that every tavern owner is an Alchemist 12 and every tutor a Wizard 10.
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I would interpret the rules as follows:
First, some baselines:
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect cloud spreads in 20-ft. radius, 20 ft. high
"Because the vapors are heavier than air, they sink to the lowest level of the land, even pouring down den or sinkhole openings. It cannot penetrate liquids, nor can it be cast underwater."
So first, in order affect the crew on deck, the ship's deck would need to be less than 20 feet from the ocean's surface. Most ships would qualify, though there could be ships where parts of the deck, or all of the deck is not affected at all by a cloudkill. Off the top of my head I think the captain's deck of the Queen Anne's revenge for example would have been more than 20 ft out of the water, or a Spanish Galleon (depending on cargo, etc).
So you have a 20' circle, 20' high which starts whereever cast, but then immediately descends to the water's surface and moves 10'/round away from the caster.
Anyone know when you die in a cloudkill? - On the caster's turn. "in which case it takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage on your turn each round while in the cloud".
What I mean is, the spell reads "These vapors automatically kill...", but are you subject to these effects immediately upon the spell being cast upon you? - If the spell is cast directly on you, then yes. It is the caster's turn, you die immediately. (if under 4 HD).
What if you move through it? - So let's assume someone is moving at sufficient speed where their momentum would take them through the cloudkill before the caster's turn? I would say that the act of moving through the cloudkill would cause the equivalent of an attack-of-opportunity, in effect making it the caster's turn, and causing the person moving through to save/die/whatever as a result of the cloudkill. Much like I could not on my turn run past a spear without suffering an attack-of-opportunity, I cannot run through the area of a spell which is in effect without suffering the results.
Looking for a RAW - "Creatures become subject to the spell when they enter the area and are no longer subject to it when they leave"
Under "magic" in the players guide.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/magic.html
Wave a hand through it? - Suffer the effects. "Holding one's breath doesn't help, but creatures immune to poison are unaffected by the spell." - Thus I would view this as in effect a magical contact poison.
What if you're on a moving ship and the movement of the ship sweeps the cloudkill through the entire crew? - See above.
Does EVERYONE die? - anyone under 4 HD dies, 4 to 6 HD must save or die. 6 or more HD must save or suffer con damage.
Is there a certain amount of time you must be in for this spell to automatically kill you? - No entering the cloud, or having the cloud move to your position causes the effects.
Do you only die if you're in the cloud on the caster's turn? - See above.
Bonus Round: How do you DMs deal with this spell affecting conflicts on a regional or world-wide scale? - Ship combat like many things in Golarion is very different than anything we can equate it to in our world. However minor castings like "Gust of wind" create a 50 mph wind.
As the spell states it is "similar to fog cloud", - A moderate wind (11+ mph) disperses the fog in 4 rounds; a strong wind (21+ mph) disperses the fog in 1 round. So it's fairly easily countered.
Edited to add - Gust of Wind can even be made permanent with a permanency spell. If cloudkills became an issue in an area my local merchants would pay to have permanent "gust of wind" spells emanating from the bow of their ships. The PC's would be left to cloudkilling poor fishing vessels.
Edited to add again - You can also just use normal weather to affect cloudkills as they behave like fog cloud. An 11 mph wind disperses the cloud in 4 rounds. With the worldwide average windspeed on the ocean being 10 mph, this means 50% of the time these cloudkills would be dispersed early. So I'd say that if windspeed is 11, then disperses in 4 rounds. 22, then disperses in 3 rounds, 33 disperses in 2 rounds, 44 disperses in 1 round, over 50 just plain doesn't work.
The argument has been presented that Cloudkill can't work the way the majority interpret it because it would devastate massed conflict has one major flaw. Counterspells. Any army or navy that faces opponents with high-level caster(s), without their own high-level caster(s), is toast.
Think about epic movie scenes with a caster supporting an army. The casters spend most of their time "upholding" their own force. That is buffing and counterspelling.
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Cloudkill is speficically given as an exampe of a spell PCs could use to impact mass battles.
"Alternatively, your PCs could use potent spells (such as cloudkill, control water, or earthquake) to alter battlefield conditions in your favor. These possibilities let you use your characters to directly affect the outcome of a battle (...)" Ultimate Campaign p246
For instance, there is no in universe reason the treasure cave players go into at level 1 is populated with CR1 monsters while the treasure cave at level 10 is filled with CR 10 monsters. It happens because entering a cave at level 1 and immediately dying to an elder minotaur isn't fun.
Fun and games in Rapan Athuk
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For instance, there is no in universe reason the treasure cave players go into at level 1 is populated with CR1 monsters while the treasure cave at level 10 is filled with CR 10 monsters. It happens because entering a cave at level 1 and immediately dying to an elder minotaur isn't fun.
Personally, I've never been a fan of the system where low level characters just never seem to encounter high level enemies.
As a GM in a non-PFS setting, you can mix it up. Players just have to use more caution when encountering creatures, and they have to accept that some enemies can't be fought yet. As the GM, you can always dumb down a high level creature encounter by having them toy with the party using untrained weapons, or by self imposing "rules" to your battle, which the PCs must overcome to "win" the fight, despite the creature being very much undefeated in a life or death capacity.
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One of the bylaws of Pathfinder is that spells affect objects and or creatures. Not parts of creatures, unless the spell specifies. If you fight an ancient white dragon and cast a fireball on its head, the damage effects the whole dragon's hit points. You can't burn it's head off just because 20% of it's hit points should be in it's head and neck. Sticking your pinkie finger into a cloud kill spell is as lethal as being in the center of it when it's cast.
A cloudkill spell will either affect the whole dragon, or be stopped by their save/magic resistance. Even if it only touches one non living scale.
I'm looking through the core book to see if rules for called shots specify otherwise.
Fun and games in Rapan Athuk
** spoiler omitted **
...my players brought a certain item back to Zelkor's Ferry to investigate further, and said something they shouldn't, and it was quite the interesting encounter.
Anyone know when you die in a cloudkill?Probably when you fail the Fort save.
Iono. Gonna need a rules citation for that.
Sticking your pinkie finger into a cloud kill spell is as lethal as being in the center of it when it's cast.
This just isn't true. If I attack someone inside cloudkill from just outside the area of effect, then I am not affected by it even though I'm clearly swinging into it. The square I occupy would need to be within the area of the cloudkill effect for me to be affected at all.
If it was as you say, then feats like Strike Back likely would not exist in Pathfinder.
Sticking your pinkie finger into a cloud kill spell is as lethal as being in the center of it when it's cast.This just isn't true. If I attack someone inside cloudkill from just outside the area of effect, then I am not affected by it even though I'm clearly swinging into it. The square I occupy would need to be within the area of the cloudkill effect for me to be affected at all.
If it was as you say, then feats like Strike Back likely would not exist in Pathfinder.
If you completely stay outside the area of the cloudkill then you live. You enter the cloudkill you die.
Really this is a quibble between where exactly the line is on graph paper between two squares.
Can you be outside the cloudkill and attack something in it? Yes.
However it's also worth noting that a cloudkill is a circle with a 20 foot radius. Try making a circle on graph paper. Assuming it is centered on a square, you are left with a whole bunch of "gray area" squares that are partially in the cloudkill, partially out.
I'd rule that being in any of these squares puts part of your body in the cloudkill and then you suffer the effects.
All that has to happen is be "in the cloud" your hand, arm, foot or toe.
However it's also worth noting that a cloudkill is a circle with a 20 foot radius. Try making a circle on graph paper. Assuming it is centered on a square, you are left with a whole bunch of "gray area" squares that are partially in the cloudkill, partially out.
When centered on an intersection, as the rules state, it is somewhat less ambiguous. However, the rules also define precisely which squares are in and which are out.
Sticking your pinkie finger into a cloud kill spell is as lethal as being in the center of it when it's cast.This just isn't true. If I attack someone inside cloudkill from just outside the area of effect, then I am not affected by it even though I'm clearly swinging into it. The square I occupy would need to be within the area of the cloudkill effect for me to be affected at all.
If it was as you say, then feats like Strike Back likely would not exist in Pathfinder.
If you completely stay outside the area of the cloudkill then you live. You enter the cloudkill you die.
Really this is a quibble between where exactly the line is on graph paper between two squares.
Can you be outside the cloudkill and attack something in it? Yes.
However it's also worth noting that a cloudkill is a circle with a 20 foot radius. Try making a circle on graph paper. Assuming it is centered on a square, you are left with a whole bunch of "gray area" squares that are partially in the cloudkill, partially out.
I'd rule that being in any of these squares puts part of your body in the cloudkill and then you suffer the effects.
All that has to happen is be "in the cloud" your hand, arm, foot or toe.
I'd say the area of the "circle" is pretty well defined in the rules. Also, you pretty much always center spells areas on an intersection, not a square.
If you're in the area, you're going to get effected. If you're not, then you won't (not even if you're swinging into it).
Generally my PC's target a spell at a person, who's normally standing in a square.
But yes, you can follow the diagram under magic and make things much simpler.
Either way you have gray-area squares if you get literal about a circle.
My point is if you are in one active with the cloudkill, even part of you, you suffer the cloudkill effects.
Now can you stand in an empty square, and attack the next square over as long as you have something that can strike the distance, but I wouldn't let you bare-knuckle brawl someone in a cloudkill and say you didn't get poisoned.
However it's also worth noting that a cloudkill is a circle with a 20 foot radius. Try making a circle on graph paper. Assuming it is centered on a square, you are left with a whole bunch of "gray area" squares that are partially in the cloudkill, partially out.When centered on an intersection, as the rules state, it is somewhat less ambiguous. However, the rules also define precisely which squares are in and which are out.
Right but we've now moved to quibbling about details about the details we were quibbling about.
point is you go into a square with the affect, even part of you, you suffer the effects.
If cloudkill could be cast en masse, than the world has plenty of 9+ level arcane casters who can cast cloudkill.
Unless this gathering of arcanists is caused by a rare or unique circumstance, then consistency demands that cities and armies also have spellcasters. Many of these casters have the means and motivation to counter cloudkill.
Problem solved.
Right but we've now moved to quibbling about details about the details we were quibbling about.
point is you go into a square with the affect, even part of you, you suffer the effects.
Disagree. You suffer the effects of cloudkill if you're inside its radius, someone standing one square away making an unarmed strike is decidedly not in its radius.
Either way you have gray-area squares if you get literal about a circle.
My point is if you are in one active with the cloudkill, even part of you, you suffer the cloudkill effects.
Now can you stand in an empty square, and attack the next square over as long as you have something that can strike the distance, but I wouldn't let you bare-knuckle brawl someone in a cloudkill and say you didn't get poisoned.
A sensible house rule. Just please don't mislead people into believing that, that is the intended way the game is meant to be played. The rules are very clear cut in this case.
@Claxon
The sample NPCs (the ones that jump immediately to mind are the CR 8 First Mate and the CR 11 Captain, though I do recall there being plenty more) indicate a much higher typical level for the jobs they describe.
@ Kaliel Windstorm
The cloud can be cast on the ship in such a way that it travels across its length, not its width. Cast from the prow, abaft, that is. Doing so would cause it to cover most of the ship (multiple decks) or all of the top of the ship if there's a single deck exposed to the air. It would thus kill much of the crew not in the rigging. Open doors or cargo hatches could cause it to float in and do more, as well.
The permanent gust of wind is an interesting idea. If we're of the assumption that the GOW kills the cloudkill, it would be pretty effective, but if it kills the cloudkill, chances are decent it'll mess with your sailing if you're sail-powered, so I dunno how feasible that is.
@GinoA
Yeah, I had considered counterspells and dispelling, and that was about the only thing I could think of that would stop it (assuming gust of wind doesn't work; jury's still out on that one). The possibility of counterspells helps curtail it a lot, but it's still a fairly major threat, since the counterspells aren't guaranteed. If there's a sufficient difference in level, the clouds might linger for quite a while. If nothing else, they'd be capable of creating large no walk zones that would help with tactical control. That's a whole other topic, though...
Buffing an army with D&D spell isn't really effective, though, not for most of them, since they're X targets per level. Killing low level dudes is probably often better.
@ Murdock Mudeater
I agree. The idea that the PCs are the biggest fish in the pond, but that it's a really big pond, is silly and unrealistic, to me. That lack of realism, to me, filters over to an unrealistic world and an unrealistic game, and the straining disbelief makes fights less tense and less interesting. Personally. For the record, I also think the APL +10 encounter to show your PCs you're really amazing is even more stupid.
@Goth Guru
Fair point. Noted, and thanks. However, Ravingdork has a good point, too.
@TOZ
Ah, clever, but in this case not completely right. You also die regardless of whether or not you fail a fortitude save if you are a low enough level.
@Kaliel Windstorm
There are techniques for making circles, whether on graph paper or no. ;)
@Malignor
I think that's a little bit overly simplistic, because it's akin to saying that cities have armies because other cities have armies, so conquest is a moot point because everyone has armies, but I think the general thinking behind your post has merit.
@ Everyon
Thanks for the help. This has been really helpful. :)
@Claxon
The sample NPCs (the ones that jump immediately to mind are the CR 8 First Mate and the CR 11 Captain, though I do recall there being plenty more) indicate a much higher typical level for the jobs they describe.
Yeah, you're extrapolating from the wrong sources and assuming everyone is the same.
If the NPCs you are referring to are the crew members of the Wormwood, yes they are higher level. But they don't represent the majority of NPCs in the world. Remember, PCs interact with extraordinary people within the story. They're not interacting with Bob the farmer or Joe the cobbler, or even the elderly couple who cart s+$& and piss to the tannery (characters from Hell's Vengeance).
Sticking your pinkie finger into a cloud kill spell is as lethal as being in the center of it when it's cast.This just isn't true. If I attack someone inside cloudkill from just outside the area of effect, then I am not affected by it even though I'm clearly swinging into it. The square I occupy would need to be within the area of the cloudkill effect for me to be affected at all.
If it was as you say, then feats like Strike Back likely would not exist in Pathfinder.
I think the point he was making was that if you enter/occupy the same space as cloudkill, even breifly you take the affects. Strikeback shows that striking into a square is not the same as being in that square.
Just to avoid any nitpicking--> your body would have be subject to attacks from a square that cloud kill occupies without things such as strike back being needed.
I'm glad this misunderstanding happened. If a start a topic about bylaws, In or out takes precedence when it comes to whole squares.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xY5q01fTceQ
Are you In or Out!