Thorn's End Guard

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94 posts. Alias of Daeryon.


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As one of the original (the original?) arguer against allowing a save in this situation that led to this thread being created I have to agree: The opinion that no save is allowed here is completely wrong.

The why of it still makes no sense to me. I've re-read the decision several times and the summary seems to be to be:
"You still get the save....because".
And then random reasons thrown out as to accidental/magical things that could randomly happen.

I don't understand why magical/random happenstance would fall under a "reflex save", but apparently it does.

As someone said earlier, this just has to be sucked up with a wave of the hand and a DM saying something like "magical fairies appear and move you 10 feet saving your life for no reason at all! Yaaaaay!".

That, or look for a game where the rules are more clear/make more sense.


I'll stop back long enough to admit that I was wrong.
I still don't believe that ruling and it makes no sense to me, but apparently paralyzed characters can magically fly when under danger and use their saving throws.

I apologize to everyone that got offended at my arguments and or attitude.

Adios.


So your argument is that rogue who is immobilized can't use his ability that grants a reflex save....

but that he gets a reflex save anyway...

WHOOOOo....

You guys are something.

You know what the original 3.5 rule said?

Evasion
These extraordinary abilities allow the target of an area attack to leap or twist out of the way. Rogues and monks have evasion and improved evasion as class features, but certain other creatures have these abilities, too.
If subjected to an attack that allows a Reflex save for half damage, a character with evasion takes no damage on a successful save.
As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one squeezing through an area cannot use evasion.
As with a Reflex save for any creature, evasion is a reflexive ability. The character need not know that the attack is coming to use evasion.

As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade.

But it's never happened. Cause you guys said so.


Evasion (Ex)

At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.

But I guess it's never happened ever in the history of Paizo and D&D.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Kaliel Windstorm wrote:
I've given about 10.
None of which have been valid.

Okay you play your way, where people can dodge things while paralyzed.

I gave you plenty of reasons, you gave none (but your attitude).

See ya.


Snowlilly wrote:
Kaliel Windstorm wrote:


Since when? And what do you base that on?

Since first edition, and every new edition since.

The rules, Gary Gygax, repeated developer comments over the course of 30 years, including Pathfinder.

So no quote, just your random opinion that the rules for this game let you dodge when you are paralyzed.

Ooooookay.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Kaliel Windstorm wrote:
Essentially the character becomes an unattended non-magical item.
Citation needed.

I've given about 10.

You haven't given one.


Ridiculon wrote:

False, the wording of the spell allows you to make a reflex save, therefore you get a reflex save.

Your immobility is taken into account in the reflex save itself, in the form of a -5 to the roll. If you make the save in spite of your immobility (represented by the -5) then you have dodged. That's how the rules system works. Again, I challenge you to find a single instance in the entirety of Pathfinder showing another resolution of this and present it here.

The wording of the spell lets you get a reflex save to jump out of the way.

You can't jump when you are paralyzed.

Therefore just like an inanimate object you would get no save.


Essentially the character becomes an unattended non-magical item. Per the rules:

Unattended Non-Magical Items: Non-magical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws.

Further backing this up:

Performing a Combat Maneuver-
If your target is immobilized, unconscious, or otherwise incapacitated, your maneuver automatically succeeds

(note you get no defense against a combat maneuver when immobilized).

Paralyzed
A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can't swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through.

note - "AND IS HELPLESS".

Not "Can dodge without moving"


Your ability to dodge in pathfinder is not governed by your ability to move.

Since when? And what do you base that on?

Reflex saves are the only thing that govern your ability to dodge in Pathfinder. Therefore, if you have successfully rolled your reflex save, you have dodged by definition.

You are never denied the benefit of a save you have made, you can look through every Pathfinder book and supplemental FAQ and you will not find one instance of this being true. If you roll your save successfully you get the benefit of it, it is one indivisible event.

Again, how can you dodge when you are paralyzed? Simply you can't.
You don't get a save in the first place.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Kaliel Windstorm wrote:
So inanimate objects wouldn't get one.

Per rule, they do.

Quote:


Saving Throws

Magical Items: Magic items always get saving throws.

Unattended Non-Magical Items: Non-magical, unattended items never make saving throws. [...] An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character's saving throw bonus).

Attended (Held/Wielded etc.) Items: Unless the descriptive text for a spell (or attack) specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack.

you just said: Unattended Non-Magical Items: Non-magical, unattended items never make saving throws.

The other items are on a moving person, or are magical.


What inanimate object gets a reflex saving throw?
Can you cite this somewhere?


TriOmegaZero wrote:
The spell only allows creatures in the area to make saves, so that is irrelevant. Being able to move is not actually a requirement to make the save.

Based on what? The rule for a reflex saving throw is that you dodge.

Are you suggesting that inanimate objects and paralyzed individuals can dodge?


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Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
Kaliel Windstorm wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Inanimate objects make Reflex saves, so that doesn't work.

What inanimate object gets a reflex saving throw to " jump to safety in the nearest open space"?

The jump thing is just fluff. Just like Windy Escape.

Hilarious.

Because why would you want to include all the rules and come up with a reasonable idea of the spells effects when you can just declare what you want as "fluff".


Sundakan wrote:
Kaliel Windstorm wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Inanimate objects make Reflex saves, so that doesn't work.

What inanimate object gets a reflex saving throw to " jump to safety in the nearest open space"?

Any one you cast Create Pit on.

No.

Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw...

So inanimate objects wouldn't get one.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Inanimate objects make Reflex saves, so that doesn't work.

What inanimate object gets a reflex saving throw to " jump to safety in the nearest open space"?


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Kaliel Windstorm wrote:
Disagree entirely. First the rules regarding the spell and saving throw specifically say "Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space", not "reflex saving throw to have a warp in the extradimensional pit push him aside".

I disagree.

Create Pit wrote:
Saving Throw Reflex negates;
The spell describes how you make the save, but does not prevent you from making the save.

No, the effects of hold person vs the description of what a reflex saving throw is prevents it.

Saving Throw Types
Reflex
These saves test your ability to dodge area attacks and unexpected situations. Apply your Dexterity modifier to your Reflex saving throws.

Paralyzed
A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act

If you can't move and can't act you can't have a reflex saving throw.


ryric wrote:

You want a justification for how a paralyzed character manages to avoid a pit spell? As the extradimensional space forms, the warp in the local dimensions manages to shift the target just enough to the side to not fall in.

If someone puts forth the effort to be that good at Reflex saves I say let them have it.

Disagree entirely. First the rules regarding the spell and saving throw specifically say "Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space", not "reflex saving throw to have a warp in the extradimensional pit push him aside".

Second, the character in question already gets a saving throw against hold person each round.

Correct interpretation of the rules:

Round 1 - Caster casts hold person.
Subject gets a save against hold person. (on their next action)
Round 2 - Caster casts Create Pit.
Subject does not get a reflex save as they are paralyzed, and falls into pit.


Hold Person - The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place.

Paralyzed: A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can't swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through.

Create pit:
Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space

Saving Throw Types
Reflex
These saves test your ability to dodge area attacks and unexpected situations. Apply your Dexterity modifier to your Reflex saving throws

Thus in your scenario described there is no reflex save.

Clearly to use a reflex save you must be able to dodge.
You cannot dodge while paralyzed as you are unable to move. The character cannot jump to safety.


NobodysHome wrote:
Kaliel Windstorm wrote:
#2. The saves against the haunts are typically very reasonable (DC 15 or so). Of the haunts that the party has encountered so far about 50% of the party has made their saves. Also keep in mind (And I remember this because I made the mistake and had to retcon it), that if a haunt causes a character to lose more than 1 point of any ability they get a second save for the second point, a third save for the third point, etc.

Can you point me to the reference for that? My first encounter with haunts was the AE edition and I don't recall seeing that. It would definitely change the "scariness" of haunts...

I'm assuming you mean the reference for 1 save per point of damage?

Yeah I'm incorrect. I was thinking specifically of the dance of ruin. (which is where I screwed up).

Dance of Ruin:
The haunted character is caught up in a whirling dance and spins wildly through the room for 1d6 rounds, taking 1 point of Strength damage each round (a DC 15 Will save ends the dance early);

The Wisdom damaging haunts like Frightened child seem not to do that.


Latrecis wrote:
Kaliel Windstorm wrote:


#4. Fleeing the house should look less appealing than staying in. I really played up the creepyness of the carrionstorms outside. My party opened the door to flee and stopped dead in their tracks. One of the party attempted to speak with animals (through a crack in a window) so I got reaaaaallly creepy with the carrionstorm's responses "we want to eat you eatyoueatyoueatYOUEATYOU!" etc. My characters also left their mounts outside, and I decided to play it that the carrionstorms were far more interested in the people..but left the suggestion in the party's mind that while the carrionstorms were not eating the mounts....yet, there was no telling what they might do if disturbed. If worse comes to...

Hmm, given the OP's situation, I would advise caution with the carrionstorms. As I read the post and perhaps reading between the lines, the players may be frustrated with their condition. The carrionstorms are meant to encourage the pc's to stay and Kaliel's description of them is appropriately creepy but they might be too much for the OP's group either from a pc survival or player morale perspective. The GM's first goal is for everyone to have fun, if the group would do better to retreat, recover and return, I would suggest letting them do that without the carrionstorms, at least the first time. A second retreat can encounter the undead birds. Or the birds can be waiting to guard the manor when the pc's return.

A valid point, and goes back to my point of know your party. If the party legitimately needs to bail you may want to come up with a way to let them. However, based on what I'm seeing with my party the haunts really aren't damaging them that much (except for the rogue), they are more frustrating the unthinking smack-it-with-a-sword-is-the-best-solution party. My sense of my group is that they were thinking of an expeditious retreat, quick healing, and then starting over full strength, which in my opinion is specifically why the author put the carrionstorms outside.


I ran a homecooked "get the sandpoint devil" adventure.


Major Magic rogue talent.


I had the party meet on a boatride to Sandpoint (giving them all various reasons to need to go there), boat was attacked by incompetent pirates (who were not expecting a bunch of adventurers to be aboard the crappy little vessel they were attacking) and the ensuing butt-whooping leading to party bonding.

Party is:

Ghroll (no last name) CG Half Orc Barbarian
He was raised in the Hold of Belkzen. Ghroll had to flee Belkzen when a rival of his assumed the chieftainship of his tribe. Ghroll is not very bright, but is open minded. He was going to Sandpoint on a lark, hoping to explore the human side of his heritage. Ghroll uses a greatclub in combat.

Mongol (also no last name) LN Dwarven Ranger
Mongol was a bit of a misfit in the Dwarven community of Janderhoff preferring the outside to the fortress. He and Agna (see below) worked with a local community of rangers and druids and were thought of as weird outsiders by the other Dwarves of Janderhoff. Mongol is an expert with a bow. He was sent to Sandpoint by his order to investigate the Sandpoint Devil and work with Madame Mavashti.

Agna Fuzzybeard - NN Dwarven Druid of Gozreh
Agna is a bearded female dwarf who has an almost identical backstory to Mongol. Friends and comrades they were sent together to assist Madame Mavashti and the druidic order around Sandpoint in investigating and stopping the Sandpoint Devil.

Fon Glimminghofferschmipperdo - CG Gnome Rogue
Fon grew up in Sipplerose and has known the Lyrakein Novi since birth. Novi, acting at the behest of Desna (unbeknownst to Fon, who thinks Novi is just this goofy pixie guy), requested she go to Sandpoint to assist father Zantus. Father Zantus (not expecting a random Gnome...but having prayed for assistance some weeks before) did not quite know what to do with her. However he now sees her worth since the resolution of the Goblin problem.

Morningstar Halfelven - CG Half-elven fighter
Morningstar comes from the Mierani Forest, her mother was one of the elves working on the problems near Celwynvian. Her mother had a passing affair with a local human ranger and intended to raise her daughter amongst the elves. However the mother and all other family members were captured/killed during an attack on their village (long story but mother was kidnapped by Drow and I intend to bring this back into play later). Morningstar was seperated from her mother in the chaos and escaped.
Morningstar was raised in an orphanage in Riddleport and has only vague memories of her mother. She came to Sandpoint as she had heard rumors that some other elven children from the Mierani forest were settled there at the Turanadok academy who might have clues to her background. (Hilariously while Morningstar had one of the most detailed backgrounds I made for the characters, she has prettymuch ignored it choosing not to follow any of the leads I have dangled regarding what happened to her mother).

Thalia Edasseril - CG Elf Wizard (universalist)
(I have a general rule as a DM that NO ONE EVER can play royalty, and that Noblity of any sort should be generally avoided. However, the player of this character INSISTED that she was playing a princess, and an elven princess at that. So with MUCH discussion we were able to come to an agreement where this could be done but in such a way where she would not have access to any of the resources that royalty might be expected to have).
Thalia is a younger sister of Queen Telandia Edasseril of Kyonin. (I put her as the 7th child). While being sent on a diplomatic visit to the area around Celwynvian Thalia was teleported incorrectly, arriving over the water next to the dock right before the characters got on the boat. (Thalia believes this might have been an accident, but in truth forces in Kyonin working against the Queen decided to have Thalia "accidentally lost" to help isolate the queen). Thalia, who lived a boring life of formality and protocol found that she loved the freedom of her current situation, loved adventuring, and.....really had no desire to go back to Kyonin or any other elven area. She has taken up with the adventurers and has like them become a local hero around Sandpoint. Thalia is a bit touched in the head, acts erratically and upon occasion has been known to pronounce herself a princess in public, but generally it's just thought that she is crazy.


I'm currently in the middle of running this as well. My party is about halfway through the manor.

The haunts for the most part should not be too tough, here's my points I have been focusing on:

#1. The only real killer haunt is the scarf. It sends the character right to -8 hit points if they fail the save (and this happened to our rogue). A cleric (or well prepared Druid) should be able to bring the character back if they heal right away. If not, I would hope the characters would have a healing potion or two. The rest can be cured later (Vorel's phage, or ability point damage, etc)

#2. The saves against the haunts are typically very reasonable (DC 15 or so). Of the haunts that the party has encountered so far about 50% of the party has made their saves. Also keep in mind (And I remember this because I made the mistake and had to retcon it), that if a haunt causes a character to lose more than 1 point of any ability they get a second save for the second point, a third save for the third point, etc.

#3. Keep in mind that the haunts are designed to weaken the party a bit, that's why they are there. A full stacked party would probably be able to obliterate the skinsaw man and his minions in the basement (especially if they manage to free Iesha), but to a weakened party it's more of a challenge.

#4. Fleeing the house should look less appealing than staying in. I really played up the creepyness of the carrionstorms outside. My party opened the door to flee and stopped dead in their tracks. One of the party attempted to speak with animals (through a crack in a window) so I got reaaaaallly creepy with the carrionstorm's responses "we want to eat you eatyoueatyoueatYOUEATYOU!" etc. My characters also left their mounts outside, and I decided to play it that the carrionstorms were far more interested in the people..but left the suggestion in the party's mind that while the carrionstorms were not eating the mounts....yet, there was no telling what they might do if disturbed. If worse comes to worse I'm going to have the carrionstorm eat one of the mounts like it was put through a blender. That should suffice to keep the party far more scared of the carrionstorms than the haunts. (This is probably playing the carrionstorms a little smarter...or more focused than they really should be, but to me the point of them is to keep the characters in the house, so I intend to use them for that effect as much as possible). I also don't want to just kill off the mounts, one is Shadowmist from Thistletop, one the fancy horse Aldern bought the target character, and one a fairly unique pig that a Gnome rides. If these specific mounts are attacked the party might go rushing outside to save them). The point is - know your party and keep them inside.


Nice. Death by snu-snu is probably the best way a character can go out. ;)

As an update, my crew is currently about halfway through The Misgivings. They'll stay that way for a bit as it looks like it'll be a month before we manage to get it together again.

No ......final deaths yet, but as I predicted they are not dealing well with the haunts. Our rogue had two near death experiences, (one from the scarf) and the human-blender-of-a-fighter has lost 3 strength points from a haunt. They already attempted to flee the mansion but the carrionstorms had them running right back in.
They've reverted to a tactic where everyone hides in the hall while the Druid checks out each room.
If I had to guess I'd say they are about to disturb Iesha, which I don't think is going to turn out well as the party seems to have misinterpreted the clues to think they are looking for a Lich. (though maybe they'll find Iesha and be smart enough to leave her alone?.....somehow I doubt it).


GeneticDrift wrote:
thaX wrote:

My Telekenticist bought arrows to throw around instead of having to find pebbles.

Something to think about, for everyone, can an object that the Telekenticist "loosens the strands" with be deflected? (Typically done when wanting to use special materials to get past DR)

Does it still do full damage to swarms?

RAW would seem to indicate yes.

"so kinetic blasts always deal full damage to swarms of any size (though only area blasts deal extra damage to swarms). "


thaX wrote:

My Telekenticist bought arrows to throw around instead of having to find pebbles.

Something to think about, for everyone, can an object that the Telekenticist "loosens the strands" with be deflected? (Typically done when wanting to use special materials to get past DR)

Interesting question.

In this case you are using specifically telekinesis to throw an object, and in particular by loosening the strands you are allowing it to have your thrown damage bonus. (but in a weird way, using con).

In this case I'd say yes, it can be deflected.

Based on two things: First that this is a single object, second that the aether has been loosened allowing it to be possibly affected in its trajectory.


Protoman wrote:
Kaliel Windstorm wrote:

After re-reading, I'll amend my answer to #3 to say: It's not clear.

I'd leave this to a DM decision. It looks like maybe both summoned from the elemental plane AND used from around you? I'd really think this is something they should specify. Can you use hydrokinesis in a room without water?
Check out this thread. Kineticists can can pull in elemental matter through the Ethereal or use ambient elemental matter from the surrounding environment. In regular conditions, plenty of ambient air around; in a vacuum, pull it in from another plane.

That settles it for me then, and makes sense based on the way the rules read.


After re-reading, I'll amend my answer to #3 to say: It's not clear.
I'd leave this to a DM decision. It looks like maybe both summoned from the elemental plane AND used from around you? I'd really think this is something they should specify. Can you use hydrokinesis in a room without water?


1) Can you deflect a kinetic blast with the Deflect Arrows feat?
I'd say no.
"Even the weakest kinetic blast involves a sizable mass of elemental matter or energy"
"Unusually massive ranged weapons (such as boulders or ballista bolts) and ranged attacks generated by natural attacks or spell effects can't be deflected."

The one argument in your favor here would be the quote: "Kinetic blasts count as a type of weapon for the purpose of feats such as Weapon Focus."

However, that would be indicating from the perspective of the handler, not the target.

My verdict would be that this is a sizeable amount of earth and rock being shot at the target, not defectable like a single arrow.

2) How is the kinetic cover limit supposed to work? If you can create X walls using kinetic cover, what happens when you attempt to create X+1 walls? I thought the oldest wall simply collapsed and the new one appeared as normal (like many other magical effects with similar limitations), but the GM tonight seemed to think that nothing would happen if I attempted to create X+1 walls. The power would simply fail, and that I would have to go back through the dungeon and manually knock down a few walls in order to be able to use my wall-making powers again.

"You can have a number of kinetic covers in existence equal to your Constitution modifier + 1/2 your kineticist level."

So I'd say if you have 4 maximum and 4 already in existance and you attempt to make a 5th, one of the 4 existing dissapears when you make the 5th. I'd let you choose or roll at random.

However it's not clear, and is up to DM interpretation.

3) Does a kineticist summon their element out of thin air? Or do they draw it out of their surroundings? The GM seemed to think that I couldn't use my powers in areas where dirt, stone, and the like weren't readily available. Upon reading the class rules, it seems ambiguous. In some places, it mentions drawing power from the etheral plane, and in others it seems to refer to "gathering" or "moving" the existing matter.

"Kineticists who focus on the element of earth are called geokineticists. Geokineticists manipulate the earth itself, and they are masters of defensive techniques."

"Kineticists are living channels for elemental matter and energy, manipulating the world around them by drawing upon inner reserves from their own bodies. "

So you don't summon, you manipulate as a geokineticist.

A possibility is that it is both channelling and manipluating.

4) Aside from Gather Power, is using one's kinetic powers generally noisy? The GM seemed to think that I could not use kinetic cover without making a lot of noise (since, according to him, rocks and the like would roll and clatter along the ground and gather up into the wall). In short, can I use my kinetic powers while using Stealth?

I'd agree with the DM here, rocks being manipulated would be noisy.

5) If a wall from kinetic cover can only support 5 pounds, why would enemies bother attacking it at all? Couldn't someone just lean on it, in order to knock it down?

It's more about you not using the walls like legos and building things with it I think. The idea is the walls are missile cover, not much else.


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Level advancement.


Generally speaking: Summon spells summon things that appear where you designate within the range of the spell.

However you could not summon a monster on the other side of a wall of force. Per Wall of Force: "Breath weapons and spells cannot pass through a wall of force in either direction"

And since resilient sphere works like wall of force, you could not summon something to appear on the other side of it either.


Demonknight wrote:
Kaliel Windstorm wrote:

Re-running this one with some newbs and one vet.

I could have killed them all in the Catacombs of Wrath. They went in all jolly and horsing around. They managed to head straight to Erylium who tuned them up. They had no answer for invisibility and the returning dagger. Managed to finally get lucky when one of them (who was still acting goofy) managed to accidentally reveal Erylium's location by opening a door into her from the other side.

How did she kept invisble while atacking the party with the returning dagger...?

She didn't, but invisibility at will meant she could keep turning invisble after hit and run.

Whole thing was really a total mess. They spent the first few rounds dealing with the Sinspawn. Erylium got off a cause fear and split the party up (half ran out of the room). She got off a summon monster spell and a shatter spell that ruined the barbarian's great club.
She eventually was able to play hit and run on two seperate groups in 2 seperate rooms. Her going in and out of the room was how eventually one of the characters hit her with the door.


However there apparently is a feat:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/surprising-combatant-combat

You can get the drop on foes by tricking your opponents into overlooking you as a combatant.

Prerequisite: Improved Initiative, Bluff 3 ranks.

Benefit*: At the beginning of a combat in which you would normally be able to act in a surprise round, after initiative is rolled but before the surprise round begins, you can attempt a Bluff check as a free action. The DC of this Bluff check is equal to 15 + the CR of the encounter. If you succeed at this Bluff check, you may treat the result of your Bluff check as your initiative result for the surprise round. If your Bluff check fails, you cannot act during the surprise round. Regardless, you use your normal initiative result to determine initiative for the remainder of the encounter.

Special: This feat is available to weretigers, weretiger-kin and those who associate with these creatures.


Awareness of your opponent is the determining factor of surprise.

I've always taken it as the surprise is the time necessary to determine if it's a threat, where the threat is coming from, and thinking of what to do in the confusion that is the surprise round.

So if two people are aware of each other, they cannot be surprised. HOWEVER....this does not mean they cannot be suddenly attacked from a flank, or that they can't lose track of someone and have them sneak up on them unawares.


So I'm planning this ambush on the party I'm currently DMing through Rise of the Runelords (fortunately none of them are here so I can freely talk about it).

Background:
One of the characters has made herself quite wanted (outside of the Sandpoint area). I had a team of bounty-hunters arrive in town and I had them plan a stake out. They determined that the party was staying at the Rusty Dragon and the bounty-hunters set up at the White deer inn.

The bounty-hunters sent a rogue in disguise to the Rusty Dragon to gather information. The rogue...failed his disguise roll. (problem 1 for the DM). (He was trying not to look like an elf...long story). But while the party wasn't present when he was there, Ameiko (who knows the party well and is friends with them) was. Ameiko noticed this strange guy attempting to look not-like-an-elf asking questions about the party. So later, she notified the party.

In a completely separate incident out of the blue three of the party members decide to go to the White Deer. (one of those random "what you never go there!" incidents that made problem #2 for the DM). The wanted character walks right in with the huge half-orc barbarian and the party's Cleric. As I wasn't anticipating this I had the bounty-hunters not anticipating this and they were caught at the bar without weapons having lunch. I had the wanted character make a perception roll and she noticed them staring and then PROCEEDED TO PICK A FIGHT WITH THEM. So to make a long story short the bounty hunters thought their cover was blown, they backed down and packed up and left town. (but did not say why they were there).

So now some time later my bounty hunters (all of whom the party knows what they look like - excepting the rogue) are planning to ambush the party.

They know the party frequents the Hagfish, and that when in the Hagfish they spend an inordinate amount of time drinking the stuff that makes you vomit from the fish-tank and generally causing trouble.

So the bounty hunters plan to ambush the party at the Hagfish. Their idea is to incapacitate the characters (they don't want unnecessary murder charges) and make off with the wanted character in a boat from the Hagfish's dock thus preventing any pursuit.

The scheme will involve most of the bounty hunters staying out of sight. They will be awaiting a signal from the rouge before they appear. (They will be hidden around and about the Hagfish, having taken the owner and the few mid-afternoon customers prisoner in the kitchen area).
The rogue will be in disguise again tending bar. He will serve the characters poisoned drinks.

One of the bounty hunters will be playing the part of a customer in the back drinking.

So there are two NPC's in disguise.
The rogue will serve them a save vs unconciousness poison saying that it's a new brew "Deep Gnome Draught. Too hardy for the average human!" (This should have the characters stumbling all over themselves to drink it).

The plan is once served the characters knock out (or dont') and everyone descends on the remainder of the party after the rogue yells "HEY YOUS GUYS OKAY?"

Now, finally the rules questions:

#1. The bartender will be under direct observation. However the rule for disguise states: "If you don’t draw any attention to yourself, others do not get to make Perception checks." does this require a perception check? I would think yes, since the bartender is interacting with them and attempting to impersonate another race.

#2. The bounty hunter in the back acting like a customer will not be most likley drawing any attention to himself. However the characters HAVE seen him before. Does this require a perception check?

#3. The Poison. Should there be any check for this? The characters know it's supposed to be potent, and know it's nothing they ever had before.

#4. Should there be any checks to notice people hidden around the establishment if they are all well out of sight?

Thanks for the input, sorry if it's too many details.


Skill: A skill represents a creature's ability to perform an ordinary task, such as climb a wall, sneak down a hallway, or spot an intruder. The number of ranks possessed by a creature in a given skill represents its proficiency in that skill. As a creature gains Hit Dice, it also gains additional skill ranks that can be added to its skills

Thus skill is an ability


AHA!

Skill: A skill represents a creature's ability to perform an ordinary task, such as climb a wall, sneak down a hallway, or spot an intruder. The number of ranks possessed by a creature in a given skill represents its proficiency in that skill. As a creature gains Hit Dice, it also gains additional skill ranks that can be added to its skills.

Thus, a skill is an ability.


Action: An action is a discrete measurement of time during a round of combat. Using abilities, casting spells, and making attacks all require actions to perform. There are a number of different kinds of actions, such as a standard action, move action, swift action, free action, and full-round action (see Combat).

Caster level represents a creature's power and ability when casting spells. When a creature casts a spell, it often contains a number of variables, such as range or damage, that are based on the caster's level.

Classes represent chosen professions taken by characters and some other creatures. Classes give a host of bonuses and allow characters to take actions that they otherwise could not, such as casting spells or changing shape. As a creature gains levels in a given class, it gains new, more powerful abilities.

A check is a d20 roll which may or may not be modified by another value. The most common types are attack rolls, ability checks, skill checks, and saving throws.

Extraordinary Abilities (Ex): Extraordinary abilities are unusual abilities that do not rely on magic to function.

Feat: A feat is an ability a creature has mastered. Feats often allow creatures to circumvent rules or restrictions. Creatures receive a number of feats based off their Hit Dice, but some classes and other abilities grant bonus feats.

So a feat is definitely an ability.


More quotes:
Each character is better at some things than he is at other things, granting him bonuses based on his skills and abilities.

Most die rolls in the game use a d20 with a number of modifiers based on the character's skills, his or her abilities, and the situation.

When your character has earned enough experience points, he increases his character level by one, granting him new powers and abilities that allow him to take on even greater challenges.

So two references of "skills and abilities" and one reference where skills (which also increase) are a new "power and ability".

It's just clearly not a technical term. Trying to use it like one would be incorrect IMO.


I wouldn't make much of the rogues "skills and abilities".
A lot of his abilities are increases on skill checks etc.

I think "abilities" is a general catch-all for any character trait that allows a character to do something.


Yeah, and I might buy your argument Claxon, but looking through the rest of the rule -
'affect creatures that are mindless or immune to mind-affecting effects (such as an undead or vermin)"

Earlier sentence using wording "effects" helping remove the restrictiveness that one might normally hang on the word "Ability" used later.

Even said, there's nothing that really disqualfies a skill from being an ability, (just ask a rogue, most of his abilities are skills).

The point of the ability would be to allow affects on a normally mindless creature as if it had a mind, so I'd say intimidate qualifies.


Hey look, another thread on this subject.

I would say the mesmerist could use intimidate, it is a mind affecting ability. Possibly the only skill that is.


Psychic Inception: The hypnotic stare and its penalty can affect creatures that are mindless or immune to mind-affecting effects (such as an undead or vermin). The mesmerist can also partially affect such a creature with his mind-affecting spells and abilities if it's under the effect of his hypnotic stare; it gains a +2 bonus on its saving throw (if any), and if affected, it still has a 50% chance each round of ignoring the effect. Ignoring the effect doesn't end the effect, but does allow the creature to act normally for that round.

"mind affecting spells and abilities".

I'd say you are good for intimidate.

But most skills don't affect minds.


M1k31 wrote:
Why not a skald with a didgeridoo?

Interesting. I'm not sure about a Skald but that does make me think of the possibility of bard, which I hadn't considered.


So, I got an idea that I want to make a character (who will be an NPC that occasionally shows up) based on a native Australian out of his element.

The loosely formed idea is that he's human, from a far away land, lives in a culture similar to native Australians, and kind of arrives in Varisia by accident.

My intent is that he uses a war boomerang and spears in combat, does not wear armor, and possibly has a Thylacine as a companion.

I've toyed around with several ideas:
Barbarian
Shaman
Hunter
Ranger

But I'm curious what you guys can come up with.

I'm not entirely happy with any of the ideas I've had so far. Barbarian...well I want him to be a more witty guy, not so ragey.
Hunter and ranger....his armor and weapon scheme don't seem to match so well.
Shaman is probably my best best, but I'm worried that might be too stereotypical.

Thanks for the ideas.


It's not specified in the rules, even clerics can elect to cast divine spells without getting them from a diety.

I normally make the player specify where their divine spells come from:
God
Goddess
Nature spirits
the worship of some abstract concept
Random demon
or "I dunno", which means I as the DM get to decide.


Re-running this one with some newbs and one vet.
I could have killed them all in the Catacombs of Wrath. They went in all jolly and horsing around. They managed to head straight to Erylium who tuned them up. They had no answer for invisibility and the returning dagger. Managed to finally get lucky when one of them (who was still acting goofy) managed to accidentally reveal Erylium's location by opening a door into her from the other side. At that point they managed to mob her and kill her. The party was sooo messed up that they were debating retreating back to town or if they should go onward. Either way I didn't like the options ....if they went on Korovus would've toasted them along with the remaining sinspawn. If they left and went back to town I wasn't sure how to play it. What would Korovus do if Erylium was dead? so I took pity on them and had the Sheriff show up with some backup.

The good news is that they learned and were much more careful in Thistletop.

They are about to go to The Misgivings however and I'm not optimistic of their chances. They are quickly becoming devestating death dealers in straight up fights, but they are not a thinking party and the haunts will frustrate them into acting stupid. I may be writing some names here soon.


Abraham Z. wrote:

Kaliel - these rules changes would be completely within your discretion in a home game. But they are not supported by the rules as they are currently written by paizo. Are these rules consistent with real life? No, but neither is magic etc.

I'll also add that playing a cavalier or some other mounted character is far from overpowered, especially when compared to what lots of other classes can do. Can mounted characters do a ton of damage when they charge (especially if they have a mount with pounce)? Sure, but having played such a character I can say that it's often not so easy to charge at all. Or you get a charge in once an encounter (maybe) and then find that a lot of your best stuff is now irrelevant as you go toe to toe with whatever bad guys are still standing.

In other words, as a GM I try to let all the players have fun with their characters. Mounted characters already operate within a *lot* of rules constraints limiting what they can do, and those rules are inconsistent (as discussed upthread) and lead to tons of table variation already, without needing (imho) to add a bunch of house-ruled limitations on what they can do.

Three last thoughts: 1) if you are really worried that a mounted pouncing tiger will be OP, strictly enforce the rules for charging. As written, you'll find that a lot of times the player just has no legal charge available (at least until they get Wheeling Charge). You can also refuse to allow the interpretation of Ride By Attack that I mentioned upthread, which means that they rider has to trade his lance for a non-reach weapon if he wants to also get the tiger's pounce (unless he finds a way to give his mount reach). 2) The tiger's 5 attacks on a pounce can be devastating. But as you get higher levels you'll find that the tiger will miss a lot due to its lower BAB, and also that its 5 attacks will be hampered by DR so that not that much damage actually gets through. There are solutions to these problems, but they are expensive ones, which means that the rider has less gold...

Just offering my opinion on the subject, I've stated that the RAW says one thing, but that thing defies common sense.

There's no way in hell a Lion should have better carrying capacity than a large warhorse. There's times when a DM has to weigh the RAW against common sense, and I feel this would be one of those times.

However I don't feel I'm out of bounds with the ride checks, these would jibe with the RAW. If your lion is grabbing, raking taking all 4 paws off the ground and biting, you as a rider should have to make ride checks to stay on.

Having a Lion mount could be plenty of fun, but letting that Lion mount jump on people rake, claw, grab etc all while you just sit happily upon him without ride checks is a little ridic IMO.

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