And yet the game has worked just fine for the 7 or 8 years before the Kineticist existed as far as casters doing just fine (and more than fine) using spells that require touch attacks and saves.
And nobody has ever claimed casters are too ineffectual in this system.
Again might, could, maybe should.
You MIGHT roll a string of 1s in a row.
Your enemy MIGHT roll a string of 20s in a row.
It's unlikely. And you don't build a character based around what MIGHT be a poor choice .00000000000000000000000000001% of the time.
Yes. I get it. Kinetic Blast is at-will. I have acknowledged this. I note it as a slight situational advantage.
It is not one that outweighs any of the other concerns.
You've adequately explained the advantages of the spellcaster option. It does not mean that the OP's preference isn't viable, especially if the campaign in question never gets beyond the 10th level ceiling that most campaigns end at.
You missed the points.
...No, I didn't have anything to say on the points. I was correcting misinformation. Undead are not much more likely to be immune/resistant to cold than any other type of enemy, and Gather Power can't be used on Utility Talents.
You've adequately explained the advantages of the spellcaster option. It does not mean that the OP's preference isn't viable, especially if the campaign in question never gets beyond the 10th level ceiling that most campaigns end at.
Do you see anywhere the OP states a preference? Because I don't see it.
I actually like the Kineticist, but I dont see many viable choices because of elemental segregation.
Air just has the most useful Wild talents. Fire has area infusions, Water can heal, earth has one AOE and damage reduction, etc.
I dont know what feats can actually be combined with Kinetic Blasts or work specifically with the Kineticist. I Think archery feats like Rapid shot, many shot, or precise shot work?
IF The kineticist can make full-round attacks with Kinetic Blasts, then that makes it an automatic-cannon, especially air blasts.
Kineticists can't full attack without an archetype (one that loses Utility Talents).
In the playtest they could Vital Strike, which was neat. Too bad that got kicked.
Another argument for Kineticists is the ease of use/speed factor. I play Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays, and Kineticists are a perfect Friday night character. By the time we get to the game, I've had a full work day and I've been up for 14+ hours. If it's been a crazy day at work, I want a character with fewer options that I don't need to worry about as much. In this case Kineticist > Sorcerer > anything else > Wizard.
You really only need fireball and metamagic for blasting, you can spend the rest of your slots on utility, maybe at early levels you might want some other damage, oh and a properly built blaster should kill most things within a 20ft radius in 1-3 spells.
Aside from magic items and expendables though, your average sixth level wizard is limited to three (four if he's an evoker) lightning bolts per day, assuming he memorizes nothing else in his third level slots
Another argument for Kineticists is the ease of use/speed factor. I play Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays, and Kineticists are a perfect Friday night character. By the time we get to the game, I've had a full work day and I've been up for 14+ hours. If it's been a crazy day at work, I want a character with fewer options that I don't need to worry about as much. In this case Kineticist > Sorcerer > anything else > Wizard.
Well the only complication is controlling Burn. if you do that its a boring class that just blasts with the occasional utility thrown in.
You really only need fireball and metamagic for blasting, you can spend the rest of your slots on utility, maybe at early levels you might want some other damage, oh and a properly built blaster should kill most things within a 20ft radius in 1-3 spells.Aside from magic items and expendables though, your average sixth level wizard is limited to three (four if he's an evoker) lightning bolts per day, assuming he memorizes nothing else in his third level slots
Up to five if he's a Thassilonian specialist, and 2nd level spells might include aggressive thundercloud to add more damage. Or an Admixture subschool wizard might convert the likes of burning arc or scorching ray to electricity. These aren't actually worse than lightning bolt.
Another argument for Kineticists is the ease of use/speed factor. I play Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays, and Kineticists are a perfect Friday night character. By the time we get to the game, I've had a full work day and I've been up for 14+ hours. If it's been a crazy day at work, I want a character with fewer options that I don't need to worry about as much. In this case Kineticist > Sorcerer > anything else > Wizard.
I sort of agree. Though it's also a bit amusing given that one of the main complaints I hear about the Kineticist is that some people find it unnecessarily complicated.
Another argument for Kineticists is the ease of use/speed factor. I play Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays, and Kineticists are a perfect Friday night character. By the time we get to the game, I've had a full work day and I've been up for 14+ hours. If it's been a crazy day at work, I want a character with fewer options that I don't need to worry about as much. In this case Kineticist > Sorcerer > anything else > Wizard.I sort of agree. Though it's also a bit amusing given that one of the main complaints I hear about the Kineticist is that some people find it unnecessarily complicated.
Casters are more simple to play. They're more difficult to optimize, but quite frankly Psionics are a whole new level of complication that is, in my opinion, needlessly implemented, and Casters are still quite successful, regardless of super-optimization.
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I sort of agree. Though it's also a bit amusing given that one of the main complaints I hear about the Kineticist is that some people find it unnecessarily complicated.
Yes; I'd say a sorcerer is much easier to play, actually.
Easier to build, too. If you want spell X and Y, you can just learn both with no problem; whereas if a kinny wants power P and power Q, you'd have to jump through hoops to find an element that matches both (and at low to mid levels you only get one element). Plus, did you notice how their powers tend to be available about three levels later than the equivalent spell?
Wizard is clearly more complicated, obviously.
I sort of agree. Though it's also a bit amusing given that one of the main complaints I hear about the Kineticist is that some people find it unnecessarily complicated.Yes; I'd say a sorcerer is much easier to play, actually.
Easier to build, too. If you want spell X and Y, you can just learn both with no problem; whereas if a Kineticist wants power P and power Q, you'd have to jump through hoops to find an element that matches both (and at low to mid levels you only get one element). Plus, did you notice how their powers tend to be available about three levels later than the equivalent spell?
Wizard is clearly more complicated, obviously.
bigrig107 knock that off. Its obnoxious.
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Wizard is probably the most complicated class because you have to remember every single spell slot you have and remember a large number of spells. You will need alot of paper to keep track of everything. a Arcanist requires alot less, and Sorcerer just needs a check list of available spells per day.
Not with the Blast, it can't. Note the context of the discussion (use of Rapid Shot).
I like kineticists, but they would need some more support to push their ceiling a bit higher when it comes to blasting. This, to me, is the one thing they are supposed to excel in.
I do not think they are bad at it atm, but not as good as they should. Evokers or sorcerers get a lot of power from the extra options, archetypes and items that books after core have given them, and kineticists have not had nearly the same degree of support in any Paizo books.
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Actually Kineticists can full attack with either the kinetic blade or kinetic whip form infusions. No archetype needed.
The thing is, I really like the concept of the Gather Power ability, and this is unique to this class - therefore I find it rather disappointing that the best way to play one is instead to make a weapon and do full attacks (like every melee class, basically).
Why do folks like celerity so much, one round unless you burn...pretty bad
Celerity gives HASTE to the party. That gives a bonus attack, movement, and a small hit, c, and reflex boost. If you dont want burn you can use it every turn. Alternatively 1 Burn for 6-20 rounds of Haste is worth it. The point of growing in the class is to keep raising constitution so you can accept more Burn for certain abilities.
Blasts require various burn reducing effects because they arent one-hit-kills, but support abilities with 1 burn might be useful.
Burn is odd as I think it was made by two different people. Its something you want to avoid as much as possible, but utility wild talents cant have their Burn cost reduced. Also Elemental Overflow eventually makes it so you WANT to have Burn stacks for bonus attack and damage. So burn is both a penalty and a reward(eventually)
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Burn is odd as I think it was made by two different people. Its something you want to avoid as much as possible, but utility wild talents cant have their Burn cost reduced. Also Elemental Overflow eventually makes it so you WANT to have Burn stacks for bonus attack and damage. So burn is both a penalty and a reward(eventually)
Yes. Also, it's a commonly suggested to spend burn when you wake up (to get the overflow bonuses, and to prevent having to update your stats every encounter) but this leaves you with substantially less for higher-power effects later in the day.
Celerity is good, no argument there (although its one-round version is annoying). The thing is that it's air-only, and except for this and flight, air is pretty weak. So, er, you could pick it up at level 10 with expanded element, and flight at 12? Or vice versa, assuming your campaign gets to level 12?
Burn is odd as I think it was made by two different people. Its something you want to avoid as much as possible, but utility wild talents cant have their Burn cost reduced. Also Elemental Overflow eventually makes it so you WANT to have Burn stacks for bonus attack and damage. So burn is both a penalty and a reward(eventually)
Yes. Also, it's a commonly suggested to max out your burn when you wake up (to get the overflow bonuses, and to prevent having to update your stats every encounter) but this prevents you from using higher-power effects later in the day.
Celerity is good, no argument there (although its one-round version is annoying). The thing is that it's air-only, and except for this and flight, air is pretty weak. So, er, you could pick it up at level 10 with expanded element, and flight at 12? Or vice versa, assuming your campaign gets to level 12?
You don't max your burn in the morning, you max your EO for the ability score bonuses. You leave room to accept burn through the day.
Thats why Air comes off at the best element, at least in terms of utility. Air's Reach doubles your air blast attacks, even composite ones. Wings of Air gives you FREE PERMANENT FLIGHT. Huh, I think I just quoted someone. Celerity gives Haste and despite a burn cost to fire-and-forget it, its still great.
As a point for Kineticist, I was playing a Pyrokineticist in a campaign last night and we entered a room full of calf-deep green slime. The only way across without stepping in the slime was a series of stepping stones that most of our party couldn't make the acrobatics check to cross. However, with Fan of Flames, I was able to just constantly burn the green slime away and forge a path. A caster wouldn't have had enough spells to clear the room the way I did.
There's something to be said about having access to unlimited damage outside of just combat.
Ray of Frost could have been spent freezing all of the ooze. It might not be as fast or efficient, but Casters have similar options at their disposal.
Raiziel: "Well, I just played a FIRE blaster..."
Chaos: "See, that shows why AIR is so great!"...huh?
Several powers are PERMANENT and without a burn cost. Wings of Air=free Fly for example.
Raiziel: "Well, I just played a FIRE blaster..."
Chaos: "See, that shows why AIR is so great!"...huh?
Several powers are PERMANENT and without a burn cost. Wings of Air=free Fly for example.
That's not what the point of his post was.
The original post was all like "Fire Kineticists are great, I did XYZ without expending any major resources; casters can't do that!"
And then you're all like:
"Yup, Air Kineticists are the best thing ever!" in relation to a post about Fire Kineticists having utility that casters (supposedly) don't have. (By the way, there were other options of crossing the ooze pits besides "burn it all" that is available to the entire party.)
It's the equivalent of a person saying they like oranges, and then you go off on a tirade about grapefruits being the best fruit ever. Not only is it mostly irrelevant, but they don't share a lot of the same characteristics, even if they are both of the same type of item (a fruit).
Hopefully you see the parallel here.
"Yup, Air Kineticists are the best thing ever!" in relation to a post about Fire Kineticists having utility that casters (supposedly) don't have. (By the way, there were other options of crossing the ooze pits besides "burn it all" that is available to the entire party.)
It's the equivalent of a person saying they like oranges, and then you go off on a tirade about grapefruits being the best fruit ever. Not only is it mostly irrelevant, but they don't share a lot of the same characteristics, even if they are both of the same type of item (a fruit).
Hopefully you see the parallel here.
No, thats what you take it as.
With 1 point of Infusion Specialization at level 5, you get the equivalent of free Burning Hands, better actually. You have a flamethrower any time you want.
There are some quite good powers, but they are too scattered. A Caster can pick and choose what spells they want to learn and cast. a Kineticist is limited to what element(s) they have learned.
I like Air for its utility. Fire is great for Area attacks. Water makes you a healer.
...Jesus man, you have some kind of TALENT for missing the point.
...Jesus man, you have some kind of TALENT for missing the point.
Youre just being obnoxious at this point.
--------------------If the Kineticist can reduce its Burn down to zero, then yes its an all-day character. If it cannot, which is easily caused by Utility wild talents or using infusions in combination, then anything but a low level Caster is actually longer running.
The kineticist is considerably better when it has maxed out burn than a Caster that has used up all its spell slots for the day. I like how its easy to pick up.
the Kineticist can be running hot until it has to slow down.
Casters can run steady until their "gas" is gone and then they cant function.
The Kineticist is much easier to level than a Caster at early levels. I just took a low-level Arcanisnt into a game. I functioned as a skillmonkey because I has so few spells. If I had taken my Kineticist it would performed far better in combat but much worse in terms of skills.
I dont know if the Kineticist is a long-term option. The various spells gained by Casters basically cover the entire elemental list of the Kineticist.
Which is better? Its personal opinion so there is no right and wrong.
I have to admit, I'm a bit confused with some previous posts...
In my personal opinion, I would recommend Kineticist for new players, and if they like it and are feeling experimental maybe try out a blaster wizard/sorcerer/arcanist. Kineticist seems simpler, and a lot more appealing to new players, because even if you won't need it, it's a lot more relaxing to have "At-Will' rather than "limited"
Of course if you're comfortable with the game, you can't really compete with an optimized blaster caster. If you're comfortable with spell selection and budgeting, even better.
Although one thing I'm curious about, I haven't played a lot of spellcasters but you obviously can't cast spells every round, so what do you do then? Crossbow?
I agree with people's opinions and there not being a supreme answer.
But blaster casters are better :p
MH, a few levels in you can in fact cast a spell every round if you want to just with your own spells, and you often have a few items to bulk them out too. Prior to that - crossbow, cantrip, alchemist's fire or similar, double move to stay out of trouble, maybe aid another.
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...Jesus man, you have some kind of TALENT for missing the point.Youre just being obnoxious at this point.
Let me break it down for you, so you can see what's been happening these last few posts.
1.) Someone posted about a cool thing they were able to accomplish by playing a Fire Kineticist.
2.) You immediately follow this up by saying "Thats why Air comes off at the best element"
3.) Someone boggles at you saying that in response to Fire being cited as useful, because it was a complete non-sequitur.
4.) You read this.
5.) [WHO THE F@%* KNOWS WHAT GOES ON HERE]
6.) Through whatever process #5 happened to be, you turned that statement into multiple long rants about various class features the Kineticist has and why they might be useful, in very hostile tones as if someone is disagreeing with you.
7.) Everyone is understandably confused.
8.) You get mad about everyone being confused by your inane ramblings.
And now we're caught up to the present.
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In my personal opinion, I would recommend Kineticist for new players, and if they like it and are feeling experimental maybe try out a blaster wizard/sorcerer/arcanist.
The thing is that burn is such a verbose and convoluted mechanic that it's sure to confuse the heck out of any new players. Sorcerer is very easy to play; I would recommend that to new players.
Although one thing I'm curious about, I haven't played a lot of spellcasters but you obviously can't cast spells every round, so what do you do then? Crossbow?
Ok, time for some math. How many combats will you get per day? The rulebooks recommend three, let's go with four to get some leeway. How many rounds does a combat last? Most experienced players agree on three or four rounds on average.
So if you have sixteen spells per day, then you can in fact cast every round. At which level can you have 16 spells per day? The answer is level six. At lower levels, you use cantrips like Daze, or school/bloodline powers, or a wand of Magic Missile. Yes, crossbows suck for a caster, that's why any decent caster doesn't use them.
The kineticist is considerably better when it has maxed out burn than a Caster that has used up all its spell slots for the day.
But that's a red herring since a decently played caster doesn't run out of spells. See above.
I dont know if the Kineticist is a long-term option. The various spells gained by Casters basically cover the entire elemental list of the Kineticist.
Yes, and those spells are more powerful, and available about three levels earlier.
Which is better? Its personal opinion so there is no right and wrong.
It's easy to be objective about this. Which deals more damage? The caster, even without optimization. Which is more versatile? The caster, by a wide mile. Which can do it every round of combat for the whole day? BOTH of them.
A Sorcerer/Arcanist/Wizard is dependent on the number of spells per day. You start with only a handful of spells per day and a limited number of spells known. Please do not disregard that.
Do you think Casters are more powerful even at level 1, where they have 2-4 spells per day and the duration of spells in measured in a single round?.
Ok since your opinion is that Casters are so much better at every level, what about comparing them at level 1, 5,10,15,20?
Kineticist are somewhat linear in terms of progression. Empowered for 1 burn(reducable by gather power) is a huge boost in terms of damage. a Caster on the other hand gains whole new tiers of spells every couple of levels by a certain point, and several old spells are still useful while others are not. Fireball for example can gain 5d6 damage by using Intensify spell, and you can keep using the non-metamgic version.
I like both the Kineticist and Casters, but the Kineticist is so much easier to use early levels. If you spend an extended time at level 1, such as through a PFS campaign that is much more important than a homebrew adventure where you might level up every day..
Ok since your opinion is that Casters are so much better at every level, what about comparing them at level 1, 5,10,15,20?
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A Sorcerer/Arcanist/Wizard is dependent on the number of spells per day. You start with only a handful of spells per day and a limited number of spells known.
And infinite cantrips (like Daze), and school/bloodline powers, and cheap level-1 scrolls for situational spells. Please do not disregard that.
If you want to go all day as a low-level caster, just get a wand of Magic Missile. They're affordable, and deal basically the same average damage as a L1 or L2 kinny (because the missile autohits and the kinblast does not). Even without a wand, an Elemental Sorcerer or Conjuration Wizard has magic bolts that deal comparable damage to a kinblast, about 7 times per day.
My wizard 1/sorcerer 1 had enough spells to cast every fight. All it took was 1 burning hands and all to most of the enemies were dead. then you sit back and let the fighter finish it off cause he's complaining how useless he is cause you're finishing encounters before he gets to act.
I think I am in a different category of some of the Pro-caster players. When someone says Magic missile(1d4+1) damage is the same as Kinetic Energy Blast(1d6+half con(2), or when they say half a dozen attacks per day is enough, we are not playing on the same planet.
Casters have a great deal of problems that they suffer from. Many are alleviated by leveling or acquiring money. Your Wizard doesnt have armor? Buy a wand of Mage Armor form 750 gold and you have 50 hours of it. You can get wands of high use level 1 spells for relatively cheap. If you can afford a "wand budget" then its not nearly as hard.
A kineticist is so much easier and cheaper. The only thing you need to buy is some food, water, and light armor. Weapons are optional but stilll a good idea as a backup, such as finding an enemy immune to your energy blast.
That is another thing to think about. a Caster has all sorts of material and money fees for using spells. Writing spells in a spellbook also has a fee. a Kineticist doesnt. In some ways is similar to the comparison between the Fighter and the Monk. Monks dont need money as much.
Edit: Because I know Pro-caster players will be all over this I have to point out the obvious. EVENTUALLY Casters become awesome. As soon as you get Fireball, you are no longer a load on your team, but a cannon that can be the ace in situations.