Could you...not say "Kinny" any more? It just sounds dirty.
I actually said that in response to people saying Full Spellcasters need more gear than Kineticists, saying that their needs are about equal, if not only slightly higher.
Also, I agree with this whole "Kinny" thing. We don't use "Wizzies" or "Sorcies" or "Fighties" to describe classes, and I certainly don't think using a name that is actually a reference to how a kid in a certain Colorado town pronounces another kid's name is particularly appropriate.
I suggest we stop with that sort of stuff before somebody gets offended, even if you don't actually mean it.
**EDIT**
Inappropriate example was inappropriate. It's fixed now.
Disintegrate, Prismatic Spray, Horrid Wilting, Meteor Swarm, WISH, and so on.
None of these help make a lightning-based blaster (beyond wish). Meteor Swarm is close due to admixture wizards.
@OP: I think this discussion has been thoroughly hashed-out. Casters will ultimately be stronger and more versatile, yet kineticists will last longer in dungeon crawls and longer days, while still doing plenty of damage and having at least some utility.
Ive said it before, but I dont see any advantage to being Lighting Only. If you think about just that, then Casters win hands down as they actually have more than one ability. Kineticists just have Electrical Blast.
I agree that this is pretty much done. By now its just the same thing repeating.
Its not about Blasting, but remember the Kineticist does have considerably higher resilience. I dont know if anyone has discussed that.
Disintegrate, Prismatic Spray, Horrid Wilting, Meteor Swarm, WISH, and so on.
None of these help make a lightning-based blaster (beyond wish). Meteor Swarm is close due to admixture wizards.
@OP: I think this discussion has been thoroughly hashed-out. Casters will ultimately be stronger and more versatile, yet kineticists will last longer in dungeon crawls and longer days, while still doing plenty of damage and having at least some utility.
Ive said it before, but I dont see any advantage to being Lighting Only. If you think about just that, then Casters win hands down as they actually have more than one ability. Kineticists just have Electrical Blast.
I agree that this is pretty much done. By now its just the same thing repeating.
Its not about Blasting, but remember the Kineticist does have considerably higher resilience. I dont know if anyone has discussed that.
The advantage is that a lightning focus fits the OP's theme and character flavor. Not everything is about being the best, or else we'd all play Arkalion. If you have a character concept it should outweigh optimization.
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Ill make a side-by-side comparison between a tier 9 spell and Composite Blast.
Composite blast (energy) does 2d6+(0.5)constitution modifier multipled by up to 9. Lets say its Con 28-9 for the situation. 72 average damage
Tier 9 Meteor Swarm does 8d6 damage and has 4 attacks. Without damage modifiers its 28 average damage per hit and 112 average with one spell. also each attack has a 40foot blast radius.
Actually, no sane blaster would use meteor swarm to do damage.
To keep in theme with what OP asked, and using a blood arcanist, it would be more like:
- Cast an intensified empowered (free-maximized)Chain Lightning with 1pt boost for 12d6+187 damage on up to 25 targets.
- Use rod of quickening (greater) to cast the same spell for the same damage.
- Profit.
I"m leaning toward the Kineticist, simply because of the at-will Kinetic Blast.
I'm so sorry, but you cannot, and I mean CANNOT even think about "viability" with daily uses for spells.
You cannot use Shocking Grasp, Lightning Bolt or Chain Lightning at will, let alone 3 times per day or more. Sure, they might be more powerful than the Kinetic Blast, but they're not at readily available. Yes, you MIGHT not get into that many encounters per day, but you NEVER know what to expect in any game session.
A Kineticist can snap a finger and throw a lightning orb at any time and doesn't need to worry about wasting a spell slot.
Yes, you can. Let's break it up by level to see that. For this, I'll use the aforementioned Blood Arcanist (orc bloodline).
Level 1
Your Kineticist (20 con) throws lightning at will for 1d6+2
My Arcanist (20 int) can cast burning hands FOUR TIMES for 4d6+4, effectively ending encounters. Else i'll rely on a cantrip dealing 1d3 damage against touch or a crossbow doing 1d8 damage against AC, so I can end 4 encounters but if there's more, you have more staying power - although at this level, your piddly 1d6+2 damage will make all martials laugh.
Level 4
Your Kineticist (Con 23) still throws lightning at will for 2d6+2. Not too shabby.
My Arcanist (Int 23) can cast those:
- 4 x scorching ray for 4d6+4 (double your damage) or 4 x intensified burning hands for 7d6+7
- 6 x burning hands for 5d6+5
So basically, if I want to focus on blasting and forego utility, I can already blast almost all day long.
In all honesty, I'll probably burn a spell on mage armor to get the same AC you have, so there, I can only blast 9 times.
Level 8
Let's assume your kineticist has 3 burn to take advantage from overflow. You now have 26 (28 with overflow) CON and can cast all day an empowered simple blast for (4d6+15)x1,5 so about 45 damage. You can also gather power/accept burn and go nova with an empowered composite blast for (8d6+15)x1,5 so around 65 damage. Not that bad for this level, especially targetting touch... but it's not really at will, since you'll burn yourself to ashes doing this. And lightning resistance will prove annoying.
Meanwhile, my Arcanist (Int 26) can throw:
- 4 x Empowered fireball for (10d6+10)x1,5 or 67 damage in a huge radius, no strings attached.
- 6 x Intensified Fireball (+1 point from arcane reservoir) for 12d6+12 (that's 54 damage average)
- 6 x Intensified Burning Hands for 10d6+10 so around 45 damage. Hey, look, that's how much damage you deal with your fully overflowed blast !
And let's not even menting level 1 spells.
If I meet a monster with resistance, I'll admixture the blast and still do damage.
And that's without even trying. I only took spell specialization as a feat and magical lineage, as a trait, both being in the first, widely used books. I could deal much more damage with a wizard dipping crossblooded and using other shenanigans. But why should I when the damage is already vastly superior ?
Also, I didn't throw rods in there because, you know, that would be unfair.
Now about defenses. Kineticist (especially earth or aether) might have better defenses on the fly. But DR 4/-, while nice, won't save the day. If the opponent really try to reach the arcanist and your BSF doesn't help you, then improved invisibility or mirror image (or resist energy against specific monsters) trumps whatever you have. An air kineticist does have invisibility, but it's not improved, so you cannot use it AND blast.
About utility.
You get fly at will. That's really nice. I mean it. That's, like, all kinds of awesome. I envy you, I do. Should have gone air wizard with crossblooded dip, just to show you how much that ability is awesome. But since I didn't, well, you ARE better there. But that's about the only utility you can bring to the table, and it's self only. Meanwhile, IF the need arises, I could cast fly on the whole party so we can all cross this chasm. Or haste them. Or cast water breathing. Or invisibility on everybody. Or Resist energy. Or Protection from evil. Or Rope Trick. Or Mount. Because, you know, Quick Study.
What is true is you CANNOT do everything at once. I CANNOT blast all day while also giving fly to the whole party. But then, the kineticist cannot give fly at all, so there's that.
So TL,DR, a naked arcanist blaster:
- Will do consistently (i.e. 16 times per day) more damage than your at-will blast AND will do it AOE.
- Will do a better nova than you do
- Will deal with resistance/immunities better
- Will deal with SR better
- Will have better defenses if neeeded
- Will have more utility
- Will be more useful out of combat
A Kineticist
- Will fly better
- Will make a better scout
I'd really like the kineticist to be the better blaster, but it's not.
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So TL,DR, a naked arcanist blaster:
- Will do consistently (i.e. 16 times per day) more damage than your at-will blast AND will do it AOE.
- Will do a better nova than you do
- Will deal with resistance/immunities better
- Will deal with SR better
- Will have better defenses if neeeded
- Will have more utility
- Will be more useful out of combatA Kineticist
- Will fly better
- Will make a better scout
That's a good summary. Thumbs up!
Ill make a side-by-side comparison between a tier 9 spell and Composite Blast.
Composite blast (energy) does 2d6+(0.5)constitution modifier multipled by up to 9. Lets say its Con 28-9 for the situation. 72 average damage
Tier 9 Meteor Swarm does 8d6 damage and has 4 attacks. Without damage modifiers its 28 average damage per hit and 112 average with one spell. also each attack has a 40foot blast radius.
Actually, no sane blaster would use meteor swarm to do damage.
To keep in theme with what OP asked, and using a blood arcanist, it would be more like:
- Cast an intensified empowered (free-maximized)Chain Lightning with 1pt boost for 12d6+187 damage on up to 25 targets.
- Use rod of quickening (greater) to cast the same spell for the same damage.
- Profit.I"m leaning toward the Kineticist, simply because of the at-will Kinetic Blast.
I'm so sorry, but you cannot, and I mean CANNOT even think about "viability" with daily uses for spells.
You cannot use Shocking Grasp, Lightning Bolt or Chain Lightning at will, let alone 3 times per day or more. Sure, they might be more powerful than the Kinetic Blast, but they're not at readily available. Yes, you MIGHT not get into that many encounters per day, but you NEVER know what to expect in any game session.
A Kineticist can snap a finger and throw a lightning orb at any time and doesn't need to worry about wasting a spell slot.
Yes, you can. Let's break it up by level to see that. For this, I'll use the aforementioned Blood Arcanist (orc bloodline).
Level 1
Your Kineticist (20 con) throws lightning at will for 1d6+2
My Arcanist (20 int) can cast burning hands FOUR TIMES for 4d6+4, effectively ending encounters. Else i'll rely on a cantrip dealing 1d3 damage against touch or a crossbow doing 1d8 damage against AC, so I can end 4 encounters but if there's more, you have more staying power - although at this level, your piddly 1d6+2 damage will make all martials laugh.Level 4...
Burning hands is 1d4/level not d6
Ill make a side-by-side comparison between a tier 9 spell and Composite Blast.
Composite blast (energy) does 2d6+(0.5)constitution modifier multipled by up to 9. Lets say its Con 28-9 for the situation. 72 average damage
Tier 9 Meteor Swarm does 8d6 damage and has 4 attacks. Without damage modifiers its 28 average damage per hit and 112 average with one spell. also each attack has a 40foot blast radius.
Actually, no sane blaster would use meteor swarm to do damage.
To keep in theme with what OP asked, and using a blood arcanist, it would be more like:
- Cast an intensified empowered (free-maximized)Chain Lightning with 1pt boost for 12d6+187 damage on up to 25 targets.
- Use rod of quickening (greater) to cast the same spell for the same damage.
- Profit.I"m leaning toward the Kineticist, simply because of the at-will Kinetic Blast.
I'm so sorry, but you cannot, and I mean CANNOT even think about "viability" with daily uses for spells.
You cannot use Shocking Grasp, Lightning Bolt or Chain Lightning at will, let alone 3 times per day or more. Sure, they might be more powerful than the Kinetic Blast, but they're not at readily available. Yes, you MIGHT not get into that many encounters per day, but you NEVER know what to expect in any game session.
A Kineticist can snap a finger and throw a lightning orb at any time and doesn't need to worry about wasting a spell slot.
Yes, you can. Let's break it up by level to see that. For this, I'll use the aforementioned Blood Arcanist (orc bloodline).
Level 1
Your Kineticist (20 con) throws lightning at will for 1d6+2
My Arcanist (20 int) can cast burning hands FOUR TIMES for 4d6+4, effectively ending encounters. Else i'll rely on a cantrip dealing 1d3 damage against touch or a crossbow doing 1d8 damage against AC, so I can end 4 encounters but if there's more, you have more staying power - although at this level, your piddly 1d6+2 damage will make all martials laugh.Level 4...
Not to be a prude on your well-done analysis, but there are some issues:
1. How are you getting +187 points of damage on a Chain Lightning? I'm going to guess typo, but just to be sure...some math work would be appreciated.
2. Burning Hands does D4's, not D6's. It's still very encounter-ending, as it has an average of 14 points of damage; the only things that would live from that are 16 Constitution Barbarians, 2 HD enemies, and so on. But that does reduce the average by ~4 damage, which is a big deal at level 1.
3. With optimization, you could actually have 2 sets of 4D6+4 for the Scorching Ray, via Spell Specialization, Mage's Tattoo, and/or Strengthen Magic (base Arcane Reservoir ability for +1 CL). There's still an Attack Roll to deal with, but it's Touch AC, which, for most creatures, won't be that high.
Other than those things, I 100% agree with (and probably would have given a similar) analysis.
Has anyone talked about Divine casters? They have a variety of lightning and weather themed spells, such as Storm of Vengeance.
Has anyone talked about Divine casters? They have a variety of lightning and weather themed spells, such as Storm of Vengeance.
9th level spells are bad things to specialize in as a Blaster. Here's why:
-No Metamagic benefits, sans Metamagic Rods. (AKA, Quicken is the only thing you'll want to throw on there.) This is where a good portion of Blasting damage comes from, and why 3rd or 4th level spells are good. Several higher level spells, like Delayed Blast Fireball, can be worked with, but even that is pushing it.
-Several abilities cannot apply to them, such as the Metamagic Master Regional Trait, and are crucial for maximizing Metamagic benefits. Did I also mention you are denied the biggest benefit of Spell Perfection, the ability to add a Metamagic feat of any cost for free (restrictions apply, see store for details)? Being able to manipulate spell slots via Spell Perfection is one of the best selling points for Blaster Casters being able to last for almost every encounter in a day, whether it's 2 or 10.
-Requires 17th/18th level to even be able to cast. Not a lot of games reach that far, and for the ones that do, you'll be dealing with things far worse than an optimized blaster. That's a lot of levels where you will be sub-par compared to someone who is optimized with the lower level spells.
-They drain some of your strongest levels of power. 9th level spell slots aren't cheap; Pearls of the stuff cost 81,000 gold, with Runestones of Power costing twice as much, and you only get maybe 6 of them per day, presuming 20 Base casting stat, +5 Tome, all 5 level bonuses sank into it, and a +6 headband, which gives you 2 extra 9th level spells, combined with your base of 4.
That's just off the top of my head. Most Divine spell lists have crappy blasting. Look at the Druid as an example, who probably has the best Divine blasting there is; Flame Strike is perhaps their best spell, and because Divine spellcasting lacks the versatility options that Arcane can have, they'll never be on par, or be nearly as relevant.
Has anyone talked about Divine casters? They have a variety of lightning and weather themed spells, such as Storm of Vengeance.
Druid was mentioned above. Cleric could be an option with the right domains, but would either need an archetype to prep more or would lack a lot of blasts actually playing it from level 1. 9th level spell slots rarely see play, and usually when they do you try to save those slots for metamagic or emergencies, because you have a bajillion other spell slots that aren't capable of causing literal miracles. That said, Storm of Vengeance would be a pretty awesome addition to a caster blaster thematically.
I like how selective Chain Lightning is, and it also has the benefit of being on theme, element-wise. Is it possible to specialize in that spell? Or would something like a Fireball with the Selective metamagic added still be better?
If it was me I would specialize in dragon's breath and have the admixture school in some fashion.
I can then choose any element as the spell to get the shape of breath I want and still change it back to the element I want. It also has a slightly higher dice cap than most 3rd level spells (12d6 instead of 10).
Chain lightning comes so late in the game it's almost not worth it.
Another good choice would be fire snake and change it's element since you can literally tell it how to go (also with widen or other expanding feats you can hit a ton of squares).
Whether you are a Wizard, a Druid, or a Kineticist, your options on Lightning spells are limited.
wizard:
shock shield 1, shocking grasp 1, defensive shock 2, Lightning Bolt 3, sheet lightning 3, ball lightning 4, lightning arc 5, chain lightning 6, ride the lightning 9
druid:
call lightning 3, sheet lightning 3, ball lightning 4, call lightning storm 5, storm of vengeance 9
Kineticist:
electric blast(simple), charged water blast(composite), thunderstorm blast(composite, expanded)
The Wizard has the highest number of lightning themed spells. If you take the Evocation/admixture school you can alter your Evocation spells to be electric attacks.
Discussing which is better between a Wizard and a Kineticist is interesting, but if you stick to the Lightning theme then the Wizard is definitely has the most spells, and the most electrical attacks overall.
CT: There's also spells like elemental aura for a wizard which have a lightning [i[option[/i]. And others like aggressive thundercloud. Having the most options is basically the wizard's shtick.
RD: Fire and electricity and acid etc. aren't quite interchangeable IMO. You tend to get the best bang for your buck with fire, but it's often resisted - I might make Electroball a higher level or slightly less good spell.
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There's a few more lightning-based wizard spells, like Storm Step and Shocking Image.
You can use Nethys's mask to change acid spells into electricity, too. For example, Acid Arrow, Acid Pit, or Vitriolic Mist.
Dragon's Breath is a 4th level spell and it's only electricity option is a 60ft line. Compared to Lightning Bolt, a 3rd level spell, that is 120ft line. So you get +2d6 to the dice cap and half the range for +1 spell level. But with Lightning Bolt, you can get it sooner, and both metamagic traits can apply to it, instead of only one. Also, lines aren't normally considered the best shape for blasting, as you can likely only count on getting 2-3 targets at most. You might get lucky and run into a hallway full of enemies though. Even then, a fireball placed at the center of the group could still likely catch them all, as it's quite wide, and will also catch the ones hiding in the side rooms too.
What are peoples opinions on "inventing" alternate versions of spells, like an Electricity Fireball? It seems like it shouldn't be too op, but I know the Elemental Spell metamagic feat exists, and this would completely negate the need for it, so some people automatically use that as a reason that it shouldn't be allowed; because it is being done to negate the need for the feat.
You have obviously ignored the fact that everyone keeps bringing up the admixture school.
Which is how you would get a cone out of dragon's breath that is electricity.
You would cast dragon's breath as acid (for example) to get the cone and then use the first level power of the admixture school to change the element back to lightning.
Just like you would use that same power to change a fireball into electricity.
However that simple comparison ignores the major benefit that I was espousing as a reason to take the spell, naming the ability to take different shapes and expand your options. Also combined with your statement of "inventing spells" it seemed rather likely you were not actually paying attention to how the spell was getting where it was in the first place or why it was being done.
Now granted it would be better if the elemental choices were more open (as that is the other reason to take the spell normally).
Fire snake is a later level but again the OP was asking about spells like chain lightning where they had more control over their targeting.
Damage isn't the only consideration by a long shot.
I mean I'm not saying fireball is bad either (though it does have several limitations of its own, low level, lower DC, large area which can be problematic , simply that if you are looking for more options in casting these other spells offer them.
Actually I haven't ignore it at all. It was just easier to compare the line version of the spell to a line spell due to similarities.
A 30-ft cone is 1/4th the size of a 30-ft burst/blast/spread. A Fireball is only 20ft, but still. That's 8 squares across while the cone is only 6 across. The Fireball also has the advantage of being able to be centered anywhere within 400ft, whereas I have to place myself within 30ft of a target to cone them. I agree the extra 2 dice cap is nice, but not sure if it's worth it for the 1 level increase. It is nice that it's flexible between a line OR a cone though, and maybe that is worth the 1 level increase with everything else taken into account.
Fire Snake is nice in its selectiveness, but it has the range issue as well; only 60ft, putting you near the enemy. And it's 2 levels higher than a Fireball, and needs its damage converted, just like fireball. It does have the +5 dice cap though, but again, is 2 levels higher. And Fireball can still get a second trait that affects it and you get to it sooner.
I would like to use a better or more fitting spell than Fireball, but there's a reason it's always the recommended spell for blasters. It's the right level, the right size, the right damage scaling. It's only downside is the damage type, and there are ways to fix that.
Fireball is the gold standard for blasts usually, so ideally you are an admixturist or elemental sorcerer or the like. But lightningbolt is still plenty usable, especially in a party with lots of body on the field (like one with a summoner or a few animal companions). It allows for damage that goes between allies much easier than fireball. None of this makes it better than fireball, and none of it cannot be worked around at higher levels, but it is nice.
As for researching new element types, I would probably allow it, but many would not because damage type is a balancing factor (most things do fire damage because 1/2 the bestiaries are resistant/immune) so ask your GM.
the Admixture sub-school is the best option for a Wizard for multiple elements. It lets you change them for a limited number of times per day, which isnt bad as sounds as it is based on your Casting stat.
Elemental spell is a metamagic feat, so that causes problems as you have to have it already locked into your spell. That kind of defeats the purpose as you would likely already have a different kind of spell at that tier for different elemental damage. Its a worse alternative to Admixture, but its useful on any caster, not just the Wizard or Arcanist.
Dragon's breath Is versatile as you can use it either as a cone or line and there are different elements, but is less useful than Lightning Bolt if you use it for the lightning line.
The Kineticist Chain infusion can be added to Electric Blast, and ONLY to Electric Blast. Its worse than it sounds. Its considerably weaker then the Chain Lightning spell as you have to stack up burn reduction due its high burn cost, roll to hit, and it does lower damage that weakens on every subsequent hit.
Burning hands is 1d4/level not d6
Yep, typo, my bad :D
1. How are you getting +187 points of damage on a Chain Lightning? I'm going to guess typo, but just to be sure...some math work would be appreciated.
Level 20 Chain Lightning with specialization (+2CL), tatoo (+1) and 1 point boost from arcanist (+2CL) is 25d6 thanks to empowered.
Orc bloodline adds +1 so that's 25d6+25.
Maximise makes it a flat 175.
Empowered adds 12d6+12.
So there, 12d6+187.
empower would be adding (25d6+25)/2 not 12d6+12.
Yeah, I'm becoming increasingly sad about how Kineticist damage stacks up to a spellcaster, though I suppose that is countered by how increasingly happy I am that spellcaster blasters are possible now. I'm hoping Kineticists will continue to get a lot of love to make them better at what they are supposed to be good at, but I'm worried that the fact that they can blast at-will will always keep them somewhat inferior to a spellcaster.
That is a reasonable concern.
Kineticists increase in damage at a linear and somewhat slow rate. Your damage goes up every 2 levels, but a Wizard increases in damage every level, so its a competition. The difference in variety of uses and area is vast.
a kineticist can attack all day long as you control your burn. a Wizard cannot, but it is higher degree of damage. The clear superiority in terms of area attacks means a Wizard eventually starts multiplying damage by working on multiple enemies.
The kineticist isnt a caster, but an alternative physical class. I think of it more like an Archer. In that regards you can have some quite powerful abiltities. Look at the fighter for example. You can use Kinetic blade/Whip to make full-round attacks at full damage. Eventually You would be doing something like touch 9d6+10-20 damage and making multiple attacks while the Fighter is doing something like 1d8+15 damage per hit.
That is a reasonable concern.
Kineticists increase in damage at a linear and somewhat slow rate. Your damage goes up every 2 levels, but a Wizard increases in damage every level, so its a competition. The difference in variety of uses and area is vast.
a kineticist can attack all day long as you control your burn. a Wizard cannot, but it is higher degree of damage. The clear superiority in terms of area attacks means a Wizard eventually starts multiplying damage by working on multiple enemies.
The kineticist isnt a caster, but an alternative physical class. I think of it more like an Archer. In that regards you can have some quite powerful abiltities. Look at the fighter for example. You can use Kinetic blade/Whip to make full-round attacks at full damage. Eventually You would be doing something like touch 9d6+10-20 damage and making multiple attacks while the Fighter is doing something like 1d8+15 damage per hit.
That's not entirely accurate. They have levels where their damage jumps up. Level 5 gives them regular access to empower when they can GP.
Level 11 gives them a huge boost with infusion spec 3 and supercharge. Supercharge gives them access to either empower or composite w/o burn or to empower their composite for only 1 burn. They also get another +2/+2 size boost to their stats from EO. Also, +1 internal buffer for more nova without actually hurting yourself.
Level 16 gives them composite spec which allows them to empower+composite blast every round with a GP. They also get another +1 internal buffer.
While the base scaling of their simple blast is linear +1d6[+1]/2 levels, their other class features apply increasing and stacking multipliers to that base scaling.
You are correct in that they are better apt to being compared to an archer for damage, their level dmg boosts mimic the extra attacks gained from BAB increases.
Trust me, you DO NOT want to compare a Kineticist to a dedicated full BaB archer of equivalent level.
Just don't, if you're playing a Kineticist. It will make you sad.
Well obviously. It's the highest DPR build in the game. But I mean is it mimics martial damage progression with their damage boosts hitting at the same time martials get extra attacks. Kineticists are a sort of hybrid. Their damage is analogous to martial progression but their utility and other SLA stuff mimic sorcerer style magics.
Obviously they're not going to beat a 9th caster in utility. Obviously they're not going to out damage the highest damaging class either.
usually fireball is still good because of it's low spell level, adding empowered to it is better than a 5th level spell for damage.
sorcerers can get higher than 15d6 a few times a day with their bloodline mutations.
The length of the fighting day is something to expect huge table variation at. I've been in groups where 6-8 encounters per day was more typical, with a few days going much higher. Those are the days where you are glad for a kineticist or a spherecaster. If you're going to be a regular caster there, you need to focus on spells that last all fight long.Might, could, maybe should.
EVERYONE struggles on long adventuring days. Fighters, Wizards, even Kineticists. There's ALWAYS a resource that can run down.
But statistically speaking, most games run 4-5 encounters a day, or if they run more several of them are very easy. If they're easy...just don't cast a spell. Or plink away with a cantrip or school ability.
Trading off being better at everything 90% of the time for being better at ONE thing 10% of the time is an awful trade.
Do you refuse to buy a car because you MIGHT run out of gas some time? Or sleep outside because your house COULD collapse on you in the middle of the night?
No?
Then why apply that mindset to this game? You plan for what will USUALLY happen, and accept that sometimes the unexpected occurs. You don't base your entire character around something unlikely that could come up.
"Boy I sure am glad I pumped all my Favored Enemy choices into Construct in this game. I mean, we've only ever...
Your argument misses my point. If you know that your group likes long adventuring days, then you plan for this. Statistical odds are well and good, but the reality of your table overrides them.
...And the OP has give exactly 0 indication that this is the case, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make there. When someone asks for build advice, it's counterproductive to give them the nichest advice you can possibly give.
Honestly, I love the Kineticist. It's my favorite "martial" class that doesn't have the "Spells" class feature. So, keep that in mind.
Also:
It's actually incredibly versatile, and a ranged blaster usually is the go-to option, but it is by no means the only option.
-Ranged striker (obviously)
-Melee Striker- Weapon Finesse + Kinetic Blade/Whip.
-Battlefield Controller- the various "grease" infusions, the Wall infusion, Kinetic Cover, etc.
-Summoner (eventually and admittedly with restrictions)- through Spark of Life. Only elementals, and Aero/Void/Phyto can't use it, but basically free elementals as a standard plus a move action concentrate or spend burn for longer? Yes please, thank you!).
-Healer Kinetic Healer and the, admittedly horrible, Kinetic Chirurgeon archetype lets you function as a secondary healer. Plus, UMD as a class skill.
-Limited Buffer/Debuffer- Air gets "free" Haste, Magnetic Infusion helps anyone with metal weapons, a few elements have grappling/tripping/blinding/etc. infusions.
-Area of Effect blaster (yeah, this one's pretty obvious too)- Wall, Explosion, etc. Good stuff.
I think a lot of people focus on the at-will part of the Kineticist, but to me, that isn't really a big part of the Kineticist's appeal.
Yeah, it's cool not to have to make the whole party worry about a limited resource such as spells (they do have burn, but as has been shown repeatedly, Kineticists with burn often have even higher hit points than other martials and it is perfectly viable, although not optimal, to completely ignore taking actual burn except in situations of extreme emergency.
But what makes the Kineticist both different and attractive as an alternative to the Blockbuster Blaster-Caster is the core infrastructure of the class itself.
It's not meant to out-cast the casters, nor out-damage the dedicated full-BAB'ers.
It's meant to be a nice balance between the two, with unique defenses (DR, miss chance, invisibility, and a myriad of other cool options), forms of attacks/control (status effects, area of effect attacks, battlefield options such as Kinetic Cover, Darkness Infusion, and more), power of attacks (xd6+a lot), and pure versatility (as mentioned earlier: Haste, flight, tremorsense/earthgliding, see in darkness).
It provides a level of versatility that no martial can ever hope to match without magic items and martial power (with the survivability to make use of it) that any full caster should be jealous of.
Basically, to summarize, both the conventional Blaster-Caster (whatever class they may be) and the Kineticist have their unique and specific advanatage over the other, and it's up to yourself to pick which option fits your character idea (mechanical- and roleplay-wise)the best.
By the by, just so everyone knows where I'm coming from, I do not DISLIKE the Kineticist. I think it's a pretty fun class.
I just don't think it's especially good when taking into account what "traditional" blasters bring to the table.
Most of what the Kineticist gets, so can the caster. Both defenses (miss chance, invisibility, DR, etc.), power of attacks, and especially versatility.
The main difference is how limited a Kineticist can get in what they grab. I just built (and I mean just, like earlier today) a 16th level Earth/Fire/Water Kineticist because I wanted certain imagery when I fought, and it performs fairly well combat-wise, and has a bit of neat versatility (Earth Glide, Flight, a bit of battlefield control).
But it's certainly not on par with what a Wizard would give me in either case, and what especially rankles is the sheer lack of options they get even within a certain element. Just because of lack of choices, pretty much every Kineticist of a given element, or even a mix of several elements is going to look very same-y.
By the by, just so everyone knows where I'm coming from, I do not DISLIKE the Kineticist. I think it's a pretty fun class.
I just don't think it's especially good when taking into account what "traditional" blasters bring to the table.
Most of what the Kineticist gets, so can the caster. Both defenses (miss chance, invisibility, DR, etc.), power of attacks, and especially versatility.
The main difference is how limited a Kineticist can get in what they grab. I just built (and I mean just, like earlier today) a 16th level Earth/Fire/Water Kineticist because I wanted certain imagery when I fought, and it performs fairly well combat-wise, and has a bit of neat versatility (Earth Glide, Flight, a bit of battlefield control).
But it's certainly not on par with what a Wizard would give me in either case, and what especially rankles is the sheer lack of options they get even within a certain element. Just because of lack of choices, pretty much every Kineticist of a given element, or even a mix of several elements is going to look very same-y.
I have a feeling that just as we have gotten literally tons of new spells for all of our beloved casters, so shall we begin to receive new talents and (maybe/hopefully?) some new elements that aren't focused just on the main 7 we have now.
Void and Phyto need a lot more work, undoubtedly. And we all know the true "main 5" could always use expansion.
As for new elements, perhaps a Life element could be drafted up? Or a "Poison" one, focusing on debuffs?
I know there are 3rd party stuff out there for new elements (including the two element ideas I just mentioned), but...PFS/PFS-rules-following groups.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Length of day is a really hard question to answer.
Not at all. There are clear standards and averages, which people can tell from their experience. There are some outliers, which people can also tell from their experience. Generally speaking you build a character for a common average day, with enough reserves to handle a fair bit of extra.
The fact that some people state that, on average, a well-built spellcaster won't run out of spells, means they are are just saying that for the majority of situations, the spellcaster will have enough spells to out-perform the Kineticist. And that is probably a safe assumption.
Yes, and bear in mind that this already includes long days and outliers, and that it already works around 4th to 6th level, without requiring any gear. You are seriously underselling it by calling it "the majority" of situations, when it's really "pretty much all" situations.
I think a lot of people focus on the at-will part of the Kineticist, but to me, that isn't really a big part of the Kineticist's appeal.
That's funny. Because the main argument in favor of kinny so far is "but casters may run out of spells sometimes". If you're going to spend burn then you're going to run out of options much faster than any spellcaster. Compare: you need to be very high level (15 or so) to be able to take more than 11 burn per day. A fourth level caster already has more than 11 spells per day (a 15th level caster has around 45 spells per day...)
By the by, just so everyone knows where I'm coming from, I do not DISLIKE the Kineticist. I think it's a pretty fun class.
I just don't think it's especially good when taking into account what "traditional" blasters bring to the table.
Most of what the Kineticist gets, so can the caster. Both defenses (miss chance, invisibility, DR, etc.), power of attacks, and especially versatility.
The main difference is how limited a Kineticist can get in what they grab. I just built (and I mean just, like earlier today) a 16th level Earth/Fire/Water Kineticist because I wanted certain imagery when I fought, and it performs fairly well combat-wise, and has a bit of neat versatility (Earth Glide, Flight, a bit of battlefield control).
But it's certainly not on par with what a Wizard would give me in either case, and what especially rankles is the sheer lack of options they get even within a certain element. Just because of lack of choices, pretty much every Kineticist of a given element, or even a mix of several elements is going to look very same-y.
I have a feeling that just as we have gotten literally tons of new spells for all of our beloved casters, so shall we begin to receive new talents and (maybe/hopefully?) some new elements that aren't focused just on the main 7 we have now.
Void and Phyto need a lot more work, undoubtedly. And we all know the true "main 5" could always use expansion.
As for new elements, perhaps a Life element could be drafted up? Or a "Poison" one, focusing on debuffs?
I know there are 3rd party stuff out there for new elements (including the two element ideas I just mentioned), but...PFS/PFS-rules-following groups.
I've been waiting for it, but it's been over a year now and there's been bupkiss to expand the core options of the Kineticist. It just got a list of new options for new elements that will make the builds for those same-y as well.
@Kurald:
I think a lot of people focus on the at-will part of the Kineticist, but to me, that isn't really a big part of the Kineticist's appeal.
Yeah....I was actually addressing exactly that. I'm saying the people going on about how the Kineticist is "an all-day class" aren't actually talking about the best part of the Kineticist.
In fact, the rest of the post goes on to explain why I think it's not the at-will part that makes the Kineticist awesome.Again:
I think a lot of people focus on the at-will part of the Kineticist, but to me, that isn't really a big part of the Kineticist's appeal.
@Sundakan: I certainly understand your frustration, but what with the "Year of the Planes" for PFS (yeah, I know, that's not actually the name of it; it might as well be) along with the Planes of Power Campaign Setting, I believe there will be plenty of new stuff for the Kineticist in all of us.
The Kineticist really does not compare favorably in areas that are taken for granted.
Being tied to elemental damage, there are enemies that are IMMUNE, resistant, or reduce the damage. Cold Vs Undead for example.
Infusions are sort of like Metamagic, but they only work on specific types of blasts. Explosion could be quite a good infusion, but it only works on Fire Blast.
Composite blasts are underwhelming because they are usually physical blasts which means a far lower chance to hit. Some infusions actually weaker physical blasts making them almost pointless to use over Energy blasts.
Utility Wild Talents all cost Burn that cant be reduced until level 11 when you unlock Supercharge.
The Elements themselves are capped at only 3 elements. You can only pick one type of blast, physical or energy, per element type.
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A caster after a point just has greater power, area, and versatility. At level 1 a Kineticist is awesome. At level 5-10, its shifting as casters now have more slots and metamagic. At about level 15 a Caster would be nuking things.
Being tied to elemental damage, there are enemies that are IMMUNE, resistant, or reduce the damage. Cold Vs Undead for example.
Don't have much to say on the rest of it, but thought I'd contradict this common misconception...most undead don't care about cold one way or another.
I think this crops up from three of the most iconic types of undead (skeletons, liches, and vampires) being resistant or immune, but the majority of undead types in the bestiary are neutral as far as cold resistance.
Edit:
Utility Wild Talents all cost Burn that cant be reduced until level 11 when you unlock Supercharge.
Also this. Supercharge (and Gather Power in general) doesn't apply to Utility Talents at all.
Thankfully, most are always on or cost 0, or only cost Burn to do something like give its effects to other people.
The Kineticist is a very "selfish" class.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Yeah....I was actually addressing exactly that. I'm saying the people going on about how the Kineticist is "an all-day class" aren't actually talking about the best part of the Kineticist.
In fact, the rest of the post goes on to explain why I think it's not the at-will part that makes the Kineticist awesome.
I don't see what's so awesome about casting weaker versions of spells five or six times per day. If your aim is to use burn abilities then you're just going to turn into a weak version of a caster that runs out of energy much faster than an actual caster.
...most undead don't care about cold one way or another.
I think this crops up from three of the most iconic types of undead (skeletons, liches, and vampires) being resistant or immune, but the majority of undead types in the bestiary are neutral as far as cold resistance.
Edit:
The Kineticist is a very "selfish" class.
You missed the points. Physical blasts have a low chance chance to hit, while Energy Blasts have a high chance to hit, but there are enemies that will be completely immune to your attacks. You cant pick and choose as you only get one Simple Blasts per element. Composite Blasts are questionable, but at the same time absolutely necessary if you are an Energy Kineticist as most Composites are physical.
Utility Wild Talents are very iffy. a handful of them are great such as Celerity but many of them are tied to specific Elements and/or weak. Air element gets probably the best.
Maybe the Kineticist should gain more elements? Level 1,5,10,15,20.
I like casters like the Sorceror because eventually they start multiplying their damage through AOE attacks and can cast a variety of buffs, summons, and defensive spells. the Kineticist have a much smaller variety and sometimes inferior spells.
Kineticist starts better, but ends up worse in terms of raw damage and versatility. What the exact point is up for debate. Someone earlier implied the Kineticist is worth than an Archer. If so that is very bad news.
With all this said I still like and intent to play kineticists. The class offers different mechanics and fun to be had so there is no "badwrongfun" to be had.