So now that fencing grace is broken..


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So now that fencing grace has been errata'd (or campaign clarified) to be broken with my magus, what do I do? I took an archetype so that I could qualify for it more easily with a magus's limited feat pool (Kensai).

What about other characters that took an entire class level of Swashbuckler (Inspired Blade) so that they could fit Fencing Grace in their character plan?

This change completely neutered how the feat was originally meant to work. We couldn't have even foreseen that it wasn't intended to do exactly what it said it did because Slashing Grace was originally worded in the same way.

Also Dervish Dance still exists in the exact same way with fewer prerequisites. So in a world where Dervish Dance exists why is was Fencing Grace broken? Dervish Dance requires Weapon Finesse and 2 ranks in perform (so 1 feat and at least 2 hit dice before it could be taken). Fencing Grace required Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus (two feats and no hit die limitation). So while Dervish Dance couldn't be taken at level one and Fencing Grace could (with a few specific race/class combinations), I think it's arguable that Dervish Dance is easier to qualify for.

So I guess my main question is, in what way can I now fix my character that's built around a feat that doesn't do what it did when I planned my character around it?

4/5 *

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You now need a free hand, like an actual fencer does. What do you give up in that hand that now "neuters" the build?

Either way, the answer to your question is covered on page 29 of the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide.

4/5 5/55/55/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis

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Guide, pg. 29 wrote:
If a feat or trait changes or is removed from the Additional Resources list: You have two options. First, you may either switch the old feat for an updated feat of the same name in another legal source (if available), ignoring any prerequisites of the new feat you do not meet. Alternatively, you may replace the feat (and any of the old feat’s prerequisite feats) entirely with another feat for which you meet all the prerequisites. If any of the feat’s changed directly reference one or more pieces of equipment you own (such as the weapon selected with the Weapon Focus feat), you may sell back that equipment at full market value.

So you can switch out Fencing Grace and the prerequisite feats. You can sell back the weapon you took weapon focus with.

Assuming that you've played the character since taking Inspired Blade and you are level 2, you are stuck with that class. If you have Ultimate Campaign, you can eventually retrain the level.

The above is how I understand it. Corrections welcome.

Shadow Lodge *

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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
GM Lamplighter wrote:

You now need a free hand, like an actual fencer does. What do you give up in that hand that now "neuters" the build?

Either way, the answer to your question is covered on page 29 of the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide.

With a Magus? Undoubtedly Spell Combat, which counts as TWF for Fencing Grace.

4/5 *

Ah, of course.

4/5

claudekennilol wrote:
Also Dervish Dance still exists in the exact same way with fewer prerequisites. So in a world where Dervish Dance exists why is was Fencing Grace broken? Dervish Dance requires Weapon Finesse and 2 ranks in perform (so 1 feat and at least 2 hit dice before it could be taken). Fencing Grace required Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus (two feats and no hit die limitation). So while Dervish Dance couldn't be taken at level one and Fencing Grace could (with a few specific race/class combinations), I think it's arguable that Dervish Dance is easier to qualify for.

The answer to this probably won't arise here, as this is a design team decision and not really a PFS decision (other than the decision to adopt the "updated" rules and how to handle the rebuilds). The above answers are correct on how to currently handle the rebuilding aspect.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if Dervish Dance gets updated one day for consistency sake. I have no basis for that assertion other than "Well, it happened to Fencing Grace after Slashing Grace, so it can happen to Dervish Dance."

Sovereign Court 5/5 5/55/55/5

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The doors to the church of saranrae are always open

*sigh* mostly because we keep giving criminals a second chance and they steal the locks, but the doors are always open none the less

Liberty's Edge 3/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My Kensai magus used an Aldori dueling sword with Slashing Grace, so was already nerfed. I haven't felt like it made the character unplayable at all so far.

2/5 5/55/5 ***

Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you want dex-to-damage and you want Weapon Finesse just put Agile on your rapier, all it costs is a +1 bonus (and you can give your weapon other buffs from your Arcane Pool anyway).

Pathfinder Society Field Guide wrote:


Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with an agile weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

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Kaushal Avan Spellfire wrote:

If you want dex-to-damage and you want Weapon Finesse just put Agile on your rapier, all it costs is a +1 bonus (and you can give your weapon other buffs from your Arcane Pool anyway).

Pathfinder Society Field Guide wrote:


Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with an agile weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.

Note that this does not work with a Blade-bound Magus as they are not allowed to put that enchantment on their Blackblade. This means they need Slashing Grace (no longer works), Fencing Grace (no longer works) or Dervish Dance (currently works) to do this. Take away Dervish Dance and they have no ability to add DEX damage to a weapon.

Grand Lodge 2/5

Kaushal Avan Spellfire wrote:

If you want dex-to-damage and you want Weapon Finesse just put Agile on your rapier, all it costs is a +1 bonus (and you can give your weapon other buffs from your Arcane Pool anyway).

Pathfinder Society Field Guide wrote:


Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with an agile weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.

That's not an option for me without even further retraining as intelligent weapons don't like it when you try to change them into something they're not.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 *

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The problem with Agile, is that you have to put in on a weapon that is already at least +1, so the cost is over 8,000 gp, which means a minimum of 27 fame before you can purchase one. If you play only scenarios, gaining 2 PP every time, that's at 14 scenarios, which means you are almost level 6. More likely you will be into level 6, closer to 7, especially if you play a module or two.

The feat can be taken at level 1 in the right build and at worst, by level 5, which is still earlier than you can possibly get agile, barring it appearing on a chronicle.

I am of the opinion that it's not an ability worth having to wait half my PCs career to get. The PC (who is likely at least partially a martial character) will be stuck with poor damage output through those lower levels.

Sovereign Court 2/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Michael Hallet wrote:
My Kensai magus used an Aldori dueling sword with Slashing Grace, so was already nerfed. I haven't felt like it made the character unplayable at all so far.

Yeah, I agree. The Magus has plenty of tricks up his sleeve, as well as damage-boosting spells. Plus, the level of Swashbuckler still gives you a free feat and the parry & riposte ability. And the bladebound gets a scaling bonus to damage, too.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Michael Hallet wrote:


I am of the opinion that it's not an ability worth having to wait half my PCs career to get. The PC (who is likely at least partially a martial character) will be stuck with poor damage output through those lower levels.

For a magus its not that big a deal, the damage output from your shocking grasp is passable.

Silver Crusade 5/5

I just want to know if I can sell my bard's shield back at full value.


The additional resources page says that all of the content for Advanced Class Origins is legal, so wouldn't the Fencing Grace feat from that book still work with Spell Combat? (As opposed to the other Fencing Grace feat from UI.)

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Gisher wrote:
The additional resources page says that all of the content for Advanced Class Origins is legal, so wouldn't the Fencing Grace feat from that book still work with Spell Combat? (As opposed to the other Fencing Grace feat from UI.)

YOU MUST NOT READ FROM THE BOOK!

Grand Lodge 2/5

Gisher wrote:
The additional resources page says that all of the content for Advanced Class Origins is legal, so wouldn't the Fencing Grace feat from that book still work with Spell Combat? (As opposed to the other Fencing Grace feat from UI.)

It is still legal, yes, but according to the Campaign Clarifications it now has the extra lines to treat it the same as it is found in Ultimate Intrigue.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Michael Hallet wrote:


I am of the opinion that it's not an ability worth having to wait half my PCs career to get. The PC (who is likely at least partially a martial character) will be stuck with poor damage output through those lower levels.

For a magus its not that big a deal, the damage output from your shocking grasp is passable.

You're assuming my magus is just like all* the other magi.

*obviously not all, but you know what I mean

Liberty's Edge 3/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kurald Galain wrote:
Michael Hallet wrote:
My Kensai magus used an Aldori dueling sword with Slashing Grace, so was already nerfed. I haven't felt like it made the character unplayable at all so far.
Yeah, I agree. The Magus has plenty of tricks up his sleeve, as well as damage-boosting spells. Plus, the level of Swashbuckler still gives you a free feat and the parry & riposte ability. And the bladebound gets a scaling bonus to damage, too.

My magus doesn't have levels of swashbuckler and isn't a bladebound magus. I also tend to favor spells that are useful for multiple attacks like chill touch or frostbite rather than single damage spikes like shocking grasp. Currently that character is only level 2.

3/5 *

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GM Lamplighter wrote:
You now need a free hand, like an actual fencer does.

This is absurd thing to think...fencing was nearly always accompanied by something in the other hand. A cloak, a main gauche, a buckler(yes actually held in the hand) or another weapon. Two rapier fighting was actually a real thing as well, I have seen all of these done many times

Olympic strip fencing is a modern sport, it is a tiny fraction of what fencing is.

Sovereign Court 5/5 5/55/5

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plaidwandering wrote:
GM Lamplighter wrote:
You now need a free hand, like an actual fencer does.

This is absurd thing to think...fencing was nearly always accompanied by something in the other hand. A cloak, a main gauche, a buckler(yes actually held in the hand) or another weapon. Two rapier fighting was actually a real thing as well, I have seen all of these done many times

Olympic strip fencing is a modern sport, it is a tiny fraction of what fencing is.

Yeah, here's a fun list of times when you lose the benefits of Fencing Grace.

  • While using the Sword and Pistol feat.
  • While using the Dueling Cape deed.
  • While swinging down on a chandelier.
  • While being Cayden Cailean.

    With this update, the rapier is only an effective weapon if you have no sense of style. I don't even have a problem with the feat not working with shields or Two-Weapon Fighting, but not even being able to hold something in your off-hand absolutely kills me. Seriously, just look at anyone Paizo has ever shown wielding a rapier; a hilarious percentage gain no benefit from this feat. Fun challenge: try to find a picture of Jirrelle or Merisiel with a rapier in one hand and nothing in the other.

    EDIT: Deleted a few examples, per feedback.

  • Shadow Lodge

    Illeist wrote:
    plaidwandering wrote:
    GM Lamplighter wrote:
    You now need a free hand, like an actual fencer does.

    This is absurd thing to think...fencing was nearly always accompanied by something in the other hand. A cloak, a main gauche, a buckler(yes actually held in the hand) or another weapon. Two rapier fighting was actually a real thing as well, I have seen all of these done many times

    Olympic strip fencing is a modern sport, it is a tiny fraction of what fencing is.

    Yeah, here's a fun list of times when you lose the benefits of Fencing Grace.

  • While wielding a buckler.
  • Actually, it was stated that using a buckler doesn't count as "occupying" the hand for the purposes of Slashing Grace, and since New & "Improved" Fencing Grace uses the same wording, it should work with it, too.

    Now to go dig that up...

    EDIT: Looks like claudekennilol found the FAQ entry first, and trollbill turned this into a three pedant pile-up. :P

    Grand Lodge 2/5

    Illeist wrote:
    plaidwandering wrote:
    GM Lamplighter wrote:
    You now need a free hand, like an actual fencer does.

    This is absurd thing to think...fencing was nearly always accompanied by something in the other hand. A cloak, a main gauche, a buckler(yes actually held in the hand) or another weapon. Two rapier fighting was actually a real thing as well, I have seen all of these done many times

    Olympic strip fencing is a modern sport, it is a tiny fraction of what fencing is.

    Yeah, here's a fun list of times when you lose the benefits of Fencing Grace.

  • While wielding a buckler.
  • While using the Sword and Pistol feat.
  • While using the Dueling Cape deed.
  • While clutching a swordmaster's flair.
  • While swinging down on a chandelier.
  • While being Cayden Cailean.

    With this update, the rapier is only an effective weapon if you have no sense of style. I don't even have a problem with the feat not working with shields or Two-Weapon Fighting, but not even being able to hold something in your off-hand absolutely kills me. Seriously, just look at anyone Paizo has...

  • While I don't disagree with you in the slightest (obviously), I'm obligated to point out that per the FAQ you can use a swordmaster's flair with it.

    Quote:

    Slashing Grace: In the 2nd printing errata, what exactly does it mean that “You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied?” Can I use a shield? What about a buckler? Can I use flurry of blows? Brawler’s flurry? Two-weapon fighting? Spell combat? Attack with natural weapons? What if I throw the weapon? What about swordmaster’s flair?

    Slashing Grace does not allow most shields, but bucklers work because they don’t occupy the hand. Flurry of blows, brawler’s flurry, two-weapon fighting, and spell combat all don’t work with Slashing Grace. Attacking with natural weapons beyond the weapon you chose for Slashing Grace also does not work. Slashing Grace only works with melee attacks, not thrown attacks with a melee weapon. Swordmaster’s flair should have a sentence added to it that says “Carrying a swordmaster’s flair counts as having that hand free for the purpose of abilities that require a free hand, though you still can’t hold another object in that hand.”

    Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

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    Illeist wrote:


  • While wielding a buckler.
  • Paizo has already ruled in regards to Slashing Grace that a buckler does not count as being in your hand.

    Lantern Lodge 5/5

    I don't think there's anything "graceful" about Cayden Cailean. Or sword and pistol users. Or swinging on chandeliers.

    Just sayin'.

    Shadow Lodge

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    Cayden is the Best God Evar, so I demand that you recant that blasphemy immediately.

    Sovereign Court 5/5 5/55/55/5

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    Jeff Hazuka wrote:

    I don't think there's anything "graceful" about Cayden Cailean. Or sword and pistol users. Or swinging on chandeliers.

    Just sayin'.

    Chandalier swinging is a time honored tradition of swashbucklers everywhere. Swashbucklers spend years honing their skills to swing from them with grace, style, and penache!

    Grand Lodge 4/5

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    Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    SCPRedMage wrote:
    Cayden is the Best God Evar, so I demand that you recant that blasphemy immediately.

    What he said.

    Lantern Lodge 5/5

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    Since when are 'best' and 'most graceful' equivalent?

    Aside: Personally, I can't agree with a claim that someone who needed a moonrock to become a god is the 'best god.'

    2/5

    Part of Cayden's appeal is that he doesn't seem to do any of that "swashbucklery" stuff with any sort of classical grace. But rather a drunken, stumbling, booze-spilling lurch that would infuriate traditional finesse/styeful/graceful warriors because despite it all, he wins when it counts.

    He has the Strength domain, after all. I assumed he picked rapier for style, but he was basically brawling with it (and tankard) in traditional fighter manner.

    3/5 **** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

    Protoman wrote:

    Part of Cayden's appeal is that he doesn't seem to do any of that "swashbucklery" stuff with any sort of classical grace. But rather a drunken, stumbling, booze-spilling lurch that would infuriate traditional finesse/styeful/graceful warriors because despite it all, he wins when it counts.

    He has the Strength domain, after all. I assumed he picked rapier for style, but he was basically brawling with it (and tankard) in traditional fighter manner.

    Yeah given what material that exists for mimicking Cayden's fighting style its safe to say that graceful isn't even close to what you would call it.

    Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/55/55/5

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    Jeff Hazuka wrote:

    Since when are 'best' and 'most graceful' equivalent?

    Aside: Personally, I can't agree with a claim that someone who needed a moonrock to become a god is the 'best god.'

    How do you know he even used the moonrock? Perhaps his drunken stupor was so perfect he ascended on his own while kicking the moonrock's butt?

    Lantern Lodge 5/5

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    Corvus Cailean wrote:
    Jeff Hazuka wrote:

    Since when are 'best' and 'most graceful' equivalent?

    Aside: Personally, I can't agree with a claim that someone who needed a moonrock to become a god is the 'best god.'

    How do you know he even used the moonrock? Perhaps his drunken stupor was so perfect he ascended on his own while kicking the moonrock's butt?

    You'd need the rumormonger talent and a week if you want me to believe that.

    Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/55/55/5

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    Jeff Hazuka wrote:
    Corvus Cailean wrote:
    Jeff Hazuka wrote:

    Since when are 'best' and 'most graceful' equivalent?

    Aside: Personally, I can't agree with a claim that someone who needed a moonrock to become a god is the 'best god.'

    How do you know he even used the moonrock? Perhaps his drunken stupor was so perfect he ascended on his own while kicking the moonrock's butt?
    You'd need the rumormonger talent and a week if you want me to believe that.

    The accidental god can be quite persuasive!

    Sets out a dusty bottle and expertly pours out liquid persuasion into a row of shot-glasses

    1/5

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    Jeff Hazuka wrote:
    Corvus Cailean wrote:
    Jeff Hazuka wrote:

    Since when are 'best' and 'most graceful' equivalent?

    Aside: Personally, I can't agree with a claim that someone who needed a moonrock to become a god is the 'best god.'

    How do you know he even used the moonrock? Perhaps his drunken stupor was so perfect he ascended on his own while kicking the moonrock's butt?
    You'd need the rumormonger talent and a week if you want me to believe that.

    Really? Did you see the most holy one lay his hands on the starstone? Is it not far more likely that he achieved a state of drunkenness so profound that if actually resulted in enlightenment so great that he bent the very fabric of reality and transcended mortality itself?

    Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East

    I'm rather disappointed that slashing/fencing grace assumes you only have two hands to wield things with. While the alchemist is an option, I'm actually considering it for my Ratfolk. Tailblade is a fun little knife strapped to the tail, counts as a light weapon. I have a hand that is completely empty and free to use... mostly used to reload the pistol in the other hand.

    It's doubtful if I'd do this anyways, as it's a backup weapon and also requires weapon focus. But it's an annoying conundrum.

    I might end up with Slashing Strike instead, as it still gives me the Piercing benefit, without sucking up weapon focus.

    Liberty's Edge 1/5

    James Anderson, I'm not entirely sure Slashing Strike properly exists anymore. I definitely remember its previous existence, and I still see it in Herolab, but I can't find it in my copy of Advanced Class Guide. Was it playtest-only? It may be the elusive Schrodinger's Feat.

    Dark Archive 4/5 5/5 ****

    SCPRedMage wrote:
    Illeist wrote:
    plaidwandering wrote:
    GM Lamplighter wrote:
    You now need a free hand, like an actual fencer does.

    This is absurd thing to think...fencing was nearly always accompanied by something in the other hand. A cloak, a main gauche, a buckler(yes actually held in the hand) or another weapon. Two rapier fighting was actually a real thing as well, I have seen all of these done many times

    Olympic strip fencing is a modern sport, it is a tiny fraction of what fencing is.

    Yeah, here's a fun list of times when you lose the benefits of Fencing Grace.

  • While wielding a buckler.
  • Actually, it was stated that using a buckler doesn't count as "occupying" the hand for the purposes of Slashing Grace, and since New & "Improved" Fencing Grace uses the same wording, it should work with it, too.

    Now to go dig that up...

    EDIT: Looks like claudekennilol found the FAQ entry first, and trollbill turned this into a three pedant pile-up. :P

    that reference would still be very handy.

    EDIT: nevermind, found it in e ACG FAQ

    ACG FAQ on Slashing Grace wrote:
    Slashing Grace does not allow most shields, but bucklers work because they don’t occupy the hand.

    Liberty's Edge 5/5

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    So I'm wondering why a Magus wouldn't be able to use the feat. Just because spell combat works like two doesn't mean the off hand is occupied.

    5/5 5/55/55/5

    Jack Brown wrote:


    ACG FAQ on Slashing Grace wrote:
    Slashing Grace does not allow most shields, but bucklers work because they don’t occupy the hand.

    Linky

    Liberty's Edge 5/5

    Wow, that FAQ really nerfed it. I imagine it's to mitigate too much SAD builds.

    1/5

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    yes, all hail the Dervish Dance, for it alone can withstand the errata of the RPG line. Magi should only be using the scimitar and not any rapiers or other weapons. There is only one true build and it got tired of people thinking they had options.

    4/5 5/55/55/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis

    There is the other way to get Dex to Damage -- take three levels of Unchained Rogue. It brings with it all the problems,of multi classing a spell casting class.

    There are also all those Strength based Magus builds.

    Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East

    Simon Dragonar wrote:
    James Anderson, I'm not entirely sure Slashing Strike properly exists anymore. I definitely remember its previous existence, and I still see it in Herolab, but I can't find it in my copy of Advanced Class Guide. Was it playtest-only? It may be the elusive Schrodinger's Feat.

    Hmm. Time to send another email to Lone Wolf.

    Sovereign Court 2/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

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    BretI wrote:
    There are also all those Strength based Magus builds.

    Indeed. Plus agile weapons, plus relying on your spells to boost your damage. Or you could even play a dex Magus and not totally dump your str.

    1/5 * RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

    Slashing Grace and Fencing Grace was already pretty sloppily designed. And now it's even more sloppily designed. They could have just used the same language as Dervish Dance.

    As for preventing the magus from using it? Well, that's what happens when you have an arbitrary feat tax and give it for free to gish classes and not martial classes.

    1/5

    I may be being dumb here, but is this reading correct?

    I have a magus with FG.
    Round 1: I cast shocking grasp, using spell combat. I do not get dex to damage
    Round 2: my opponent is still up but not by much. I decide not to waste a spell on him, and get dex to damage.

    I.e. Is it having spell combat or using spell combat that negates the feat?

    Sovereign Court 2/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

    Neriathale wrote:
    I may be being dumb here, but is this reading correct?

    Yes, it is. You can use spell combat or fencing grace, just not both at the same time (likewise, if you're a strength-Magus, you can wield your weapon in two hands for a bigger damage bonus, just not while you're using spell combat).

    That said, generally the aim of the Magus is to use spell combat as often as possible (and in your round two, to use spell combat with a cantrip, because two attacks without +dex damage is usually better than one attack with +dex damage).

    2/5

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    Well, at least now I know that the Eldritch Scoundrel Rogues arbitrary Unchained ban was because they knew that Gish types were about to get savagely nerd batted, and didn't want Unchained Eldritch Scoundrel blowing the whistle.

    4/5 *** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston

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    Yeah, so arbitrarily deciding on rules changes a full year after a first printing is pretty terrible. Clearly they were thinking of TWF when they printed ACG (given that Slashing Grace didn't work with light weapons), and I'm guessing the nerf has more to do with Monks and consistency than it does Spell Combat. But we have to play under the rules as written. To this end, to any Inspired Blade Magi out there:

    "you may replace the feat (and any of the old feat’s prerequisite feats) entirely with another feat for which you meet all the prerequisites":

    It might not be much comfort, but now that you don't need that Weapon Focus bonus feat, you can replace it entirely with another feat for which you meet all the prerequisites. I'm going to assume this feat would go away if you do decide to retrain Inspired Blade though...

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