Can a Shadowbard use Bardic Masterpieces?


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

ShadowBard
Bardic Masterpieces

So, as the question says, can the Shadowbard use a masterpiece the bard has? I want to say yes (see quotes below) but I'm not sure and wanted to clarify in case there was some official ruling on this or if I'm just wrong. (I should note, since the shadowbard specifies that it's a phantom singer, assume the Masterpiece uses the sing performance like Life Budding in Salted Earth or Vindictive Soliloquy)

Shadowbard wrote:
When a shadowbard comes into being, it immediately begins a bardic performance of your choice—it has access to all of the bardic performances that you do.
Bardic Masterpiece wrote:
Talented bards can learn or create masterpieces, unusual applications of the bardic performance ability requiring special training.

Liberty's Edge

There has been no FAQ or dev statement on this other than the rules text itself.

That said, it has always seemed clear to me that bardic masterpieces are bardic performances and subject to all the same rules and restrictions. Ergo, yes a Shadowbard can perform a bardic masterpiece known by the casting bard... just like any other bardic performance they know. Given that the Shadowbard "has access to all of the bardic performances that you do" I would also say that there is no 'sing performance' limitation.

That said, some argue that bardic masterpieces are NOT bardic performances. Though, paradoxically, I have not then seen any of them suggest that a Shadowbard cannot perform a masterpiece. Essentially, they put masterpieces in a special 'pseudo bardic performance' category where they get most/all the benefits of bardic performances, but are somehow not bardic performances and thus not subject to the limitation of maintaining only one bardic performance at a time.


CBDunkerson wrote:
That said, some argue that bardic masterpieces are NOT bardic performances. Though, paradoxically, I have not then seen any of them suggest that a Shadowbard cannot perform a masterpiece. Essentially, they put masterpieces in a special 'pseudo bardic performance' category where they get most/all the benefits of bardic performances, but are somehow not bardic performances and thus not subject to the limitation of maintaining only one bardic performance at a time.

I'm of the mind that shadowbards can not use bardic masterpieces. Naturally, I do not consider Bardic Masterpieces to be bardic performances. That's all I have to say on that.


DeathlessOne wrote:
I'm of the mind that shadowbards can not use bardic masterpieces. Naturally, I do not consider Bardic Masterpieces to be bardic performances. That's all I have to say on that.

Based on the wording of the quote I provided from the masterpieces page I would argue that they are Bardic Performances. Plus there are more quotes from the page that indicate they could be considered as such but not as directly:

Quote:
If it only requires a standard action to activate, being able to activate a bardic performance more quickly (at 7th level, activation is a move action, and at 13th, it becomes a swift action) applies to the masterpiece as well
Quote:
In some cases, the bard can extend the duration of the masterpiece by expending additional rounds of bardic performance, just as if it were any other use of bardic performance.

That said I also see a case against it, namely when it comes to Masterpieces where the player can expend more performances per round to increase the effect of the spell like Like Budding in Salted Earth which allows the bard to use up to half their level in performances to give fast healing to their allies.

But even still that would be fixed by just having the Shadowbard use the bard stats which would make sense given that it says

Quote:
...shadowy duplicate of yourself...

Liberty's Edge

Michael Grate wrote:
That said I also see a case against it, namely when it comes to Masterpieces where the player can expend more performances per round to increase the effect of the spell like Like Budding in Salted Earth which allows the bard to use up to half their level in performances to give fast healing to their allies.

Given that there are 'regular' (i.e. non-Masterpiece) Bardic Performances which similarly have fixed or variable bardic performance round (BPR) costs other than 'one per round' (e.g. 'Spell Catching' bardic performance of the Sandman archetype burns one BPR per level of the spell the bard attempts to 'catch'), that is really more a question of how/if Shadowbard works with such effects... whether they be masterpieces or not.

This issue isn't limited to Shadowbard. Exquisite Accompaniment, Virtuoso Performance, Tuned Bowstring, Harmonizing Familiar, and every other 'extra bardic performance' type effect I can think of all specify how they operate in relation to the (most common) 'one BPR per round' style of performance, but say nothing about those with different BPR cost patterns.


CBDunkerson wrote:

Given that there are 'regular' (i.e. non-Masterpiece) Bardic Performances which similarly have fixed or variable bardic performance round (BPR) costs other than 'one per round' (e.g. 'Spell Catching' bardic performance of the Sandman archetype burns one BPR per level of the spell the bard attempts to 'catch'), that is really more a question of how/if Shadowbard works with such effects... whether they be masterpieces or not.

This issue isn't limited to Shadowbard. Exquisite Accompaniment, Virtuoso Performance, Tuned Bowstring, Harmonizing Familiar, and every other 'extra bardic performance' type effect I can think of all specify how they operate in relation to the (most common) 'one BPR per round' style of performance, but say nothing about those with different BPR cost patterns.

That's true. I guess this would have be up to GM discretion then to figure it out.

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