Game Altering (or Game Breaking?) Spells: Teleport


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Do you think the teleport spell is breaking your game or abused by players at your table? How is it being used? Or if you have an idea of how to keep it in check discuss on this thread.

Complaint: that casters make overland travel a waste of time and they bounced away from an encounter with half the party and then came back for the rest. (Not seen in my game but a paraphrase of what someone else had seen.)

A couple thoughts after re-reading the spell description. First, if they're simply moving between major towns that the caster has a lot of familiarity with, and it is only depriving the game of overland travel between those two towns I would only consider it a problem if I had a good in game reason for wanting them to travel by land, if I didn't then teleport is no different than hand-waving a week of horseback riding.
The spell does have mishap %s or landing in the wrong location, and an option would be if you don't feel they're "dangerous enough" to increase those possible bad outcomes - perhaps even a 1% chance of fatality even with perfect knowledge. Since the table is very forgiving (IMO), I would lean towards a more hazardous interpretation of what Very Familiar meant - "a place you feel at home", might only count for where you actually live. anywhere else at best being a "Studied Carefully".
A more conservative interpretation of the table can also prevent frivolous use when they could use scrolls or multiple slots to teleport away from an encounter, then teleport back and grab a couple more people, and teleport away again. Since you're looking at almost a 25% chance of not getting back to the encounter if it is a place you've only viewed that one time. So effectively there is 23% chance who ever you left behind is going to be waiting for you to walk from where ever you actually ended up on your return trip. if those %s aren't dangerous enough, then increase them as noted. I personally like the "crit-fail" outcomes as much as crit-hits.

Another thing is the note that "Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible." I'd rule that a large storm system is strong physical energy and thus teleport could be made to fail essentially anytime you the GM need the party to travel by more normal means for story reasons. If this is clear from the start as just common knowledge among wizards that storms create problems, then the player wont have as much reason to feel you're needlessly or randomly messing with their caster. I use weather a lot, so this would be common enough that if their teleport to town X didn't work....it probably wasn't the first time. The nice thing about that is they also wouldn't be clued in as to whether or not there was actually a story reason or "just bad landing conditions in Elmwood".

My main thoughts on this one is that there are ample rules to only allow the PCs to use teleport when I want them to in the spell description, and in general I would let the weather affect it enough that I could keep a straight face when overland/water travel was going to lead to a story element/hook.


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Players will figure it out imo

if its raining a lot when you try to teleport, it will start to feel suspicious.

Also even if it storming outside, why couldn't they teleport inside? maybe they are teleporting to the only city that doesn't have windows shutters or doors

I think instead of making it a game of "I sure hope the gm lets me teleport here this time" Why don't you instead nerf some things about it explicitly:

Distance possible divided by 10.
Weight limit decrased.

Only possible to teleport places where you are very familiar, but remove the failure chance.

That way your players can read the spell, and know what it does, instead of reading the spell and trying to do what it says, but having it fail because of "???"


I don't consider fast overland travel to be much of an issue. If all the party needs to do is get to Point B from Point A, I genuinely don't care how they do it - let 'em go with whatever works.

If going fast would be a problem, because they need to have plot encounters along the way, I will nudge them away from warping. For example, maybe they'll get a vision from a deity, or some NPC will come talk to them, or whatever. Worst-case, the villain "destabilizes magic" and makes teleporting dangerous until they can solve it.

Dungeons and whatnot get built-in anti-teleport defenses, because that's what any halfway-intelligent person would have up as just the very basics. When Bad Things repeatedly happen to players who try to avoid the entire encounter area, they get the idea. XD (Although pointing out they'd also get no experience, and probably less treasure, and are kind of not playing the game at all if they try to go the easy way past everything usually suffices...)

In short? It's only a problem if the GM lets it be a problem - though the easiest way of dealing with it is probably a polite agreement to not abuse spells. XD When possible, I try to avoid rejecting player ideas - but some ideas simply aren't conducive to actually playing the game.


GM Rednal wrote:

I don't consider fast overland travel to be much of an issue. If all the party needs to do is get to Point B from Point A, I genuinely don't care how they do it - let 'em go with whatever works.

If going fast would be a problem, because they need to have plot encounters along the way, I will nudge them away from warping. For example, maybe they'll get a vision from a deity, or some NPC will come talk to them, or whatever. Worst-case, the villain "destabilizes magic" and makes teleporting dangerous until they can solve it.

Dungeons and whatnot get built-in anti-teleport defenses, because that's what any halfway-intelligent person would have up as just the very basics. When Bad Things repeatedly happen to players who try to avoid the entire encounter area, they get the idea. XD (Although pointing out they'd also get no experience, and probably less treasure, and are kind of not playing the game at all if they try to go the easy way past everything usually suffices...)

In short? It's only a problem if the GM lets it be a problem - though the easiest way of dealing with it is probably a polite agreement to not abuse spells. XD When possible, I try to avoid rejecting player ideas - but some ideas simply aren't conducive to actually playing the game.

I like your 3d paragraph in particular, its not being an evil GM using the system to challenge the players, and that's the kind of thing I was looking for on these threads. How in the game rules we already have, can you as GM either stop a player from abusing (if they are) or have them realize they're not the only or first wizard the game world has encountered.

The game world keeps going on around you, and I like to have a couple story arcs going on at a time. You can only be in one place, every choice is going to have some affect somewhere else. It also helps with immersion when the party hears, that in the 2 weeks they were off at Maplefest, the organized crime ring they were on the tail of has done x, y, and z. (actually happening to my group next session)


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The GM's job isn't to fight the players, it's to help everyone tell the best story and enjoy the game. ^^ In general, Challenge = Fun. If you curbstomp everything in your path, you're probably not going to have fun for very long - there's only so many times you can one-shot a boss before they even act before you get a bit bored of it.

Part of maintaining the challenge is... discouraging super-easy fixes to everything. There's a time and a place for everything, and when everyone agrees on that, things tend to go better. ^^


CWheezy wrote:

Players will figure it out imo

if its raining a lot when you try to teleport, it will start to feel suspicious.

Also even if it storming outside, why couldn't they teleport inside? maybe they are teleporting to the only city that doesn't have windows shutters or doors

I think instead of making it a game of "I sure hope the gm lets me teleport here this time" Why don't you instead nerf some things about it explicitly:

Distance possible divided by 10.
Weight limit decrased.

Only possible to teleport places where you are very familiar, but remove the failure chance.

That way your players can read the spell, and know what it does, instead of reading the spell and trying to do what it says, but having it fail because of "???"

I'd be looking at the actual storm system interfering with teleport, the same as disruptions to the Astral plane, so landing inside of a building/shelter wouldn't matter it would be the actual weather system itself that is the strong physical energy preventing the spell. There's potential for player angst, but also possibly becomes the running joke - "So...departures delayed again??" Its a valid point though that some players would just rather know they weren't going to be able to use in certain situations or that it is very dangerous to try it (potentially more fun in game).

I think most abuse (if a GM thinks they're using it too much) is from the interpretation of the "Very Familiar", and probably could be resolved there. When you look at how far off you can end up "d% of distance traveled in a random direction".....you could be very lost...or drown in the sea. The %s are small, but the point is you have to roll, which means its in the probability over time and will have consequences.

I'm hoping to see some specifics, but you get the impression that some players are popping around like Nightcrawler, so if a new GM is having to deal with that this thread may help them. That being said though I guess if you're TPing across the room (a place you can physically see) that's probably not that hazardous - although maybe that's where the 1% to mishap on any TP would be good. If you want to show off at the pub, or steal the rogues glory...eventually it'll catch up to you.


It is game altering, but not game ruining. I think it's perfectly fair to have fortresses or even areas no susceptible to transport.

I appreciate the point regarding opportunity cost when events happen in multiple places; but I submit that after a certain level it's within the PCs power to overcome that.

Even with teleport this problems can still occur, but as party power increases, new or different tactical or narrative approaches must be taken.

The way I see it, the perils of overland travel only exist for lower level players, but there can always be certain special areas the PCs need to traverse traditionally because of the nature of those area, and that's okay too.

It's okay for parties to feel exponentially more powerful; but then so too are their adversaries.


GM Rednal wrote:

The GM's job isn't to fight the players, it's to help everyone tell the best story and enjoy the game. ^^ In general, Challenge = Fun. If you curbstomp everything in your path, you're probably not going to have fun for very long - there's only so many times you can one-shot a boss before they even act before you get a bit bored of it.

Part of maintaining the challenge is... discouraging super-easy fixes to everything. There's a time and a place for everything, and when everyone agrees on that, things tend to go better. ^^

Concur 100%. its also a social game, not a video game you "win". I think that can make it a little difficult sometimes in the moment to realize you win/fail as a group, but you can have fun (some of the funnest moments) can happen when you fail.


Teleport is definitely one of those spells that changes the game but it shouldn't ruin it. That said it can be difficult to deal with it at times, especially because you want to maintain suspension of disbelief, don't want to rob your players of their powers and agency while still getting to use those encounters you've painstakingly prepared. You simply cannot rely on a single trick to solve the issue, you need a varied arsenal. You also need to know when any of those tricks are appropriate. Finally, you need to know how often it is appropriate to use one of them at all. Thats a lot of variables already and the most important ones aren't even added yet: you, your players and the campaign. As it is with many artforms there's a limit to how much we can teach, and learn from, each other, past that point you are on your own. Being a GM is like that, this specific issue is too. The key to figuring this out for yourself and your group is to simply try stuff out, go through the process, and have an open dialogue to discuss the experience, preferably neither party should be too attached to their points of view.
It might help to discuss such things with your players in advance. "How often do you feel it is ok for X not to work?", "What kind of circumstances do you feel are appropriate?" that sort of thing. Some people will severely dislike it when you use your GM power to invent a reason ("poisoned with a mineral that blocks dimensional passage"), preferring something established in the rules (dead magic zone) instead, while others don't mind at all or actually even prefer it. Some really want to know in advance, others like to be surprised.

I like to switch things up from one campaign to the next, for instance. I've banned teleportation, I've turned it into a ritual, I've made it extremely common, etc. As these were all aspects of the gameworld I informed my players in advance. When I want to spring something on them I give out hints in advance, allowing certain skillchecks when appropriate, like with the example of the poison. Never have I given no reason or did something like that out of the blue. My players would feel cheated if I did. Most of the time, there's one or more solutions to the problem for my players to find out about and use. Also, not to make them feel cheated.

Long story short: Be adaptable and flexible, don't get too attached and talk about stuff. The same should go for your players.


Teleportation spells should enhance a game not detract from it. Unless exploration and random encounters are important to the game (Kingmaker for example) teleporting to a location is not a bad thing.

Scry & Fry is bad though, and after it works once or twice NPC's should probably be warding against such effects..

If it gets bad to you just talk to the players ask them to pull it back or explain that you want to play in the dungeon you made and not bypass it.


I prefer with it when you can only teleport to places you've actually seen with your own eyes. That way, it doesn't remove travel entirely from the game, but does removed repeat journeys, which are boring.

There are certainly narrative ways around it. Jade Regent has the gimmick of, "you must take this item to Minkai, and it's magically warded against teleportation".

Watch out for the spell Wind Walk, though, which also stands to trivialise travel, and is unaffected by teleportation traps, etc.

As well as skipping travel, teleportation (including Dimension Door) can often be used as a scouting tool - see an enemy, immediately jump away, then prep for that specific encounter. This is effective, but not without risks, especially in a situation with time pressure.


It is , like so many other things in this game , a spell that can be "abused" , but if you talk to your players and they are mature enough , a middle ground can be reached to when to use it without ever needing to alter how to world works so they cant use it by force.

Usually i have used and have seen used teleport mostly to cut long journeys , which matter a LOT for most of my PCs after a while since they run organizations/marry... and staying many months away from home becomes something they just wont do AND to save the party from defeat , since at higher levels an unluck roll with failed saves might mean you better run for your life and come back to fight another day.

Personally i dont like when my PCs die without doing something stupid , so im ok with it , but if you want a game where this fear of constant death is there at all times , this may also be an issue to you , at which point other here already told you a solution , teleport doesnt work inside this/that place because it has magical protections.

Ofc if you wanted to run a LotR kind campaign , then any teleport at all would make it pointless , at this point just explain the players exactly what are you running and ban the spell entirely.

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I'd argue that by the time teleport comes online most overland travel is done anyway. Nearly every 9 level caster gets long distance fast travel in the level 9-11 range somewhere on their spell list. It's just part of the game's progression - the stories you can tell at low levels differ from the ones at mid levels and differ again at high levels.

It sounds to me like your example player used teleport as a powerful panic button to get away from a rough battle - I don't see the problem there. Heck, we expect bad guys to do that all the time.

I've had a player teleport to town and go shopping in the middle of a fight. Really. And it was fun.

Eventually I tend to make adventures that require the game-changing toys even to participate. I'll put a lich in an underground complex that has no entrances and no oxygen and let the players figure out how they're going to deal with it.


GM 1990 wrote:
GM Rednal wrote:

I don't consider fast overland travel to be much of an issue. If all the party needs to do is get to Point B from Point A, I genuinely don't care how they do it - let 'em go with whatever works.

If going fast would be a problem, because they need to have plot encounters along the way, I will nudge them away from warping. For example, maybe they'll get a vision from a deity, or some NPC will come talk to them, or whatever. Worst-case, the villain "destabilizes magic" and makes teleporting dangerous until they can solve it.

Dungeons and whatnot get built-in anti-teleport defenses, because that's what any halfway-intelligent person would have up as just the very basics. When Bad Things repeatedly happen to players who try to avoid the entire encounter area, they get the idea. XD (Although pointing out they'd also get no experience, and probably less treasure, and are kind of not playing the game at all if they try to go the easy way past everything usually suffices...)

In short? It's only a problem if the GM lets it be a problem - though the easiest way of dealing with it is probably a polite agreement to not abuse spells. XD When possible, I try to avoid rejecting player ideas - but some ideas simply aren't conducive to actually playing the game.

I like your 3d paragraph in particular, its not being an evil GM using the system to challenge the players, and that's the kind of thing I was looking for on these threads. How in the game rules we already have, can you as GM either stop a player from abusing (if they are) or have them realize they're not the only or first wizard the game world has encountered.

Everything the players possibly have access to, the rest of the world has access to, as well. It is highly unlikely that any player will come up with an idea or combination of magic, class abilities, etc. that is truly new and unique. As such, the bad guys are as aware of teleportation and extra-dimensional travel as the players are. Consequently, if they have both the need and the capacity to prevent or limit such travel, they will do so. I believe there is a spell called Teleport Trap out there somewhere that's one resource. A character can use Dimensional Anchor and Dimensional Lock, or create magic items using these spells as a basis, to prevent travel to or from certain locations.

(On an aside, that's why I was never super bothered by the whole "explosive runes bomb" thing. If my players ever decided to escalate combat to that level, they'd discover the bad guys using it against them, too. I wouldn't want to use it against the party first because it's an auto kill on a character. After I used it against them, the party could decide if they wanted that to be an active tactic in the world or not. Any time a party wants to use tactics like this or "scry and fry," I let them know that other people, like the bad guys, are capable of doing these against the party, and allow the party to decide whether or not they want such tactics to be part of the campaign or not.)


I've seen this used in game before to powerful effect, as in we grabbed three NPC cohorts we knew for a huge battle that the GM was counting on us to bring in help for in the first place. While it's not good for gathering an army, it can still swing things in your favor for that. Otherwise its power, while high, is definitely manageable.


So far this has generated some great dialogue about how others have seen it used, or handle it at their table. There are some great nuggets in here already for new or experienced GMs, and especially mature and valuable advice such as -discuss with your players- will go such a long way. Maybe it'll become the "cliché" solution as we explore some of the other "game-breakers", but IMO since we're all engaged in this hobby to have fun with a group of people (friends, family, or random players at the LGS) discussion and GM involvement is key no matter what problems appear at the table in or out of character.

Has anyone adjusted the "landing" tables to include possible things like encounters "mid-flight" in the astral plane or other options?

That was something I was thinking of today, I know its basically considered instantaneous, but technically aren't you just skipping the terrestrial distance via the astral plane, and so why not have possible random encounters with: Other teleporting entities (maybe even evil NPCs), Random outsiders, etc?

Just an idea I was kicking around as a possible way to actually use teleportation to incorporate both random or "not so random" encounters to further your story line. It might also make the spell itself a little more interesting and thought provoking than just a way to bypass long boring overland travel. How long are you actually "in" the astral plane, even though technically no measurable time passes in the Prime?


ryric wrote:

I'd argue that by the time teleport comes online most overland travel is done anyway. Nearly every 9 level caster gets long distance fast travel in the level 9-11 range somewhere on their spell list. It's just part of the game's progression - the stories you can tell at low levels differ from the ones at mid levels and differ again at high levels.

It sounds to me like your example player used teleport as a powerful panic button to get away from a rough battle - I don't see the problem there. Heck, we expect bad guys to do that all the time.

I've had a player teleport to town and go shopping in the middle of a fight. Really. And it was fun.

Eventually I tend to make adventures that require the game-changing toys even to participate. I'll put a lich in an underground complex that has no entrances and no oxygen and let the players figure out how they're going to deal with it.

I really like your last line there. I think we'll see as we explore more of these spells that some GMs actually -create- opportunities for the PC casters to shine with their unique capabilities.

Did the caster that teleported for shopping actually get back in time to affect the encounter? Just wondering how it helped the group.

My initial post wasn't something from my game, but something described on another thread. I agree it can be a tool that you might build an encounter -expecting- the PCs to figure out its one of the solutions, not something that's breaking the encounter. If you GM long enough you realize you'll never think of everything the PCs want to try anyway, so an open mind and "yes, and" or "No, but" when PCs come up with out of the box solutions vs just smash and fry is always going to be fun for the PCs...which is when I have the most fun as well.


One additional thought: As characters grow in power, the kinds of challenges they face tend to become different. At low levels, groups tend to be your classic adventuring group. As you get stronger and stronger, though, that definitely starts to change. People start going further away from home - instead of the old tomb found behind Farmer Joe's fields, they're going into historic ruins, or specifically investigating foes like dragons before striking out. At even higher levels, PCs would start to become nationally - or internationally - famous. They're not "the kids from Tiny Town", they're "The Slayers of Galthrazzax the Red".

Thus, for the most part, they'll only be doing things that require the services of tested, experienced individuals... and to loop back around to the topic, I think that's a good explanation for why "easy fix" things like teleporting through a dungeon, "scry and fry", and so forth aren't going to work. Enemies at that level expect such attempts, and prepare for them. If it was that easy to beat them, the nation - with pleeeeenty of resources to spend on resolving the issue - would probably have done it themselves. Indeed, they could mention trying it to PCs, and note why it didn't work, and thus why they're asking the PCs for help. XD That alone would probably serve to discourage abuse and help relegate Teleport to "useful teleport between major destinations", rather than "insta-win against all obstacles".

Smart villains are fun, memorable, and challenging. Dumb villains sit at the very end of their dungeon as the PCs attack for 15 minutes each day, idly wondering why they're no longer getting reports from the early chambers and doing nothing to reinforce the place or change their plans. XD


I just thought that teleport dont only move things, it opens a channel between two distant places and connect them for very short moment. The usual risk talked about is getting lost, but what other effects it might have? Sometimes it could be like lifting a huge metal rod throught the thunderstorm, you are likely being zapped. Some ideas.

Weather: not just storms but having a different weather between points might result charge of energy dmg. Most probably electricity, but maybe fire or cold depending the temperature. Having weather prediction might be handy.

Placement: maybe if caster has know direction active, he could avoid or lessen the most dangerous mishaps.

Astral encounters: "Holy §#!7, did our fighter just got possessed?"

Cargo security: Keep your bags strapped and weapon peacebonded or you could lose some of them.

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GM 1990 wrote:


Did the caster that teleported for shopping actually get back in time to affect the encounter? Just wondering how it helped the group.

It was a surprise fight with a very powerful dragon outdoors, approx. a CR19 dragon vs a group of 4 lv 14 PCs. It was several years ago so I don't remember all the details, but I do remember a PC getting petrified by a prismatic spray in the first round, and another PC thinking because he had a dragon bane weapon that he would just melee the creature and getting torn to shreds in one round. The party sorcerer remembered there being some specific item in the last city they visited(one of the special rolled up items above the town base value, e.g., 1d4 major items sort of thing). So he teleported right to the seller and dumped a giant pile of money on the ground, snatched the item, and teleported back. I think it took 3-4 rounds. I don't remember the specific item but it ended up being very helpful.

I do recall that the fight was designed to be too tough for the party - they were supposed to get help from a friendly good dragon - but my group didn't end up doing that, as players are wont to do. I don't pull punches at high levels so they got what they got.


Matthew Downie wrote:

I prefer with it when you can only teleport to places you've actually seen with your own eyes. That way, it doesn't remove travel entirely from the game, but does removed repeat journeys, which are boring.

There are certainly narrative ways around it. Jade Regent has the gimmick of, "you must take this item to Minkai, and it's magically warded against teleportation".

Watch out for the spell Wind Walk, though, which also stands to trivialise travel, and is unaffected by teleportation traps, etc.

As well as skipping travel, teleportation (including Dimension Door) can often be used as a scouting tool - see an enemy, immediately jump away, then prep for that specific encounter. This is effective, but not without risks, especially in a situation with time pressure.

All good points.

We basically do the same thing in our games (can only teleport to places you have already been)-like savepoints in a videogame. :D

Windwalk is not too much of an issue, you just use random encounters of flying monsters.


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ryric wrote:
So he teleported right to the seller and dumped a giant pile of money on the ground, snatched the item, and teleported back.

That's a dangerous precedent for a GM to set. What if the casters start saying, "I teleport to the magic shop, grab the magic item, fail to dump a giant pile of money on the ground, and teleport back"?


Matthew Downie wrote:
ryric wrote:
So he teleported right to the seller and dumped a giant pile of money on the ground, snatched the item, and teleported back.
That's a dangerous precedent for a GM to set. What if the casters start saying, "I teleport to the magic shop, grab the magic item, fail to dump a giant pile of money on the ground, and teleport back"?

Someone who deals magic items would have the resources to either prevent this, or track them down and make them pay...

It might take time, but there are consequences...

I play every NPC as if they were a PC (as in, thinking stuff through)-no PC would allow this behavior to go unpunished if it was THEIR shop, so...

:D

At the very least, they would discover posters in every 'magic shop' that had their pictures saying either 'do not serve' or 'wanted for theft'.


alexd1976 wrote:
Windwalk is not too much of an issue, you just use random encounters of flying monsters.

Really?

They're wind-walking in gaseous form. Most creatures won't notice them. Most that do can't catch up with them. If a very fast dragon is able to intercept and attack them in flight, they're pretty much doomed - they can't fight back unless they first land and then spend five rounds solidifying.


Matthew Downie wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Windwalk is not too much of an issue, you just use random encounters of flying monsters.

Really?

They're wind-walking in gaseous form. Most creatures won't notice them. Most that do can't catch up with them. If a very fast dragon is able to intercept and attack them in flight, they're pretty much doomed - they can't fight back unless they first land and then spend five rounds solidifying.

Clearly I'm thinking of another spell... there is something similar, right?

One where you AREN'T gaseous?

*shrugs*

By the time they can cast stuff like this, it's hardly a problem, IMO. I just have dungeons carved out of stone that prevents teleportation effects, natural areas (like mountain ranges) that inhibit it the same way... it's worked for us in the past.

Another thing to do is simply remove spells like that altogether, if you feel it affects the game in a negative way. Overland travel can be fun, or tedious.

Depends on the group and the GM.


You shouldn't want to use random encounters in overland travel. They're boring and past low level they destroy verisimilitude because the game setting assumes that merchants are traveling the same routes. Anything that can threaten a level 9 party will completely annihilate a caravan.


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Atarlost wrote:
You shouldn't want to use random encounters in overland travel. They're boring and past low level they destroy verisimilitude because the game setting assumes that merchants are traveling the same routes. Anything that can threaten a level 9 party will completely annihilate a caravan.

I use random encounter tables by level attached to geographical areas.

This means a level 12 party using a public highway might encounter a group of level 1-2 bandits.

:D

Likewise, a merchant wandering off into the Haunted Woods might encounter a werewolf or level 5-6 Witch...

and so on...

Essentially, the farther from civilization you go, the deadlier it gets.

Realistic? Probably not, but it works for my group.


alexd1976 wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
You shouldn't want to use random encounters in overland travel. They're boring and past low level they destroy verisimilitude because the game setting assumes that merchants are traveling the same routes. Anything that can threaten a level 9 party will completely annihilate a caravan.

I use random encounter tables by level attached to geographical areas.

This means a level 12 party using a public highway might encounter a group of level 1-2 bandits.

:D

Likewise, a merchant wandering off into the Haunted Woods might encounter a werewolf or level 5-6 Witch...

and so on...

Essentially, the farther from civilization you go, the deadlier it gets.

Realistic? Probably not, but it works for my group.

That would be the more realistic way to use encounter tables, but it's also boring and pointless busywork. A level 6 witch is just as pointless an encounter for a level 9 party as a group of level 2 bandits. It's useful while the PCs are exploring level appropriate areas, but, unless you can scry your destination, teleport is for backtracking and for backtracking all you're doing is wasting the players' time with pointless CR<APL encounters.


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For a level 9 party, a group of level 2 bandits is a good role-playing opportunity.


I think random encounters are far more realistic than never running into anything anywhere except for designated adventure zones. At the very least, there are other adventurers out there who have their own agendas that might not be complimentary to the PCs. In a realistic world, the intelligent (and even unintelligent) beings are going about their lives regardless of what the players are doing, and it would be odd if none of them ever crossed paths with the PCs.

That being said, overuse of random encounters can interrupt the flow of the game, so I don't use them to a significant degree unless they're germane to the story line as a whole.

Also, you don't need flying random encounters just because the party is flying. You just need to have the party notice something on the ground that is interesting enough for them to want to investigate. Maybe they notice from their aerial perspective a large group of armed persons waiting in ambush for a caravan; maybe they fly over a blind canyon and see a settlement of giants with some sort of weird shrine at the center; or maybe they fly over a village to see many of the buildings still smoldering and in ruins because of a bandit raid earlier that morning. Sure, the players could choose to avoid or ignore those engagements, if they so choose, but their mere presence makes the travel time more interesting, and the players have the option to investigate, rather than just having some monster jump out and say, "Boo" at them.


Matthew Downie wrote:
For a level 9 party, a group of level 2 bandits is a good role-playing opportunity.

It really can be. Or an opportunity for a good old fashioned bare-knuckle beat-down.

Level 9 wizard still has BAB of +4... :D

My players seem to like these kinds of encounters... it's also a great way to plant clues about an upcoming BBEG (they will have henchmen of all levels, not just APL).


Well , sometimes if you dont put players around things that are clearly weaker than them , they cant grasp how far they have come.

When they get to high level , few times allowing them to notice this by having them stomp certain enemies isnt necessarily a bad thing to me.


alexd1976 wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
For a level 9 party, a group of level 2 bandits is a good role-playing opportunity.

It really can be. Or an opportunity for a good old fashioned bare-knuckle beat-down.

Level 9 wizard still has BAB of +4... :D

My players seem to like these kinds of encounters... it's also a great way to plant clues about an upcoming BBEG (they will have henchmen of all levels, not just APL).

I also like to at least roll for area specific random encounters because in a sandboxy campaign it can produce great food for thought about new story arcs.

Like anything it could of course bog down your current arc so use in moderation, but I don't think its wasted prep work or game time if you think about the possibilities behind the encounters.
As an example from my game, the random wilderness encounter an ogre spider, I decided its lair would be a natural cave with a large sinkhole entrance that it had covered with debris (functioning as a pit-trap). The random treasure was a bronze statue (I figured like 2' tall), the random container was a chest with a trap. I thought it over and decided the statue was of the evil deity of destruction/chaos that had been being transported in the chest and lost enroute eventually ending up in this lair (doesn't exactly matter how). When the party unwrapped it the cave started collapsing and they dropped it and ran. That statue...is going to come back later in my campaign as a whole story arc. As far as my players will know it was my plan all along, but in reality it was all because I rolled on the random encounter and treasure table and thought about how I could use it or I could have discarded it if nothing seemed to make sense at that time.

We veered a little off the track of teleport, but also good points about why overland (or astral plane) travel may still be important to your campaign and random encounters are a tool for the GM.

Everyone's table, GM style, and players will be different so no 1 answer to teleport as a tool/abused spell/game wrecker will meet each persons needs, but there are some good and thought provoking ideas here so far. I'm looking forward to teeing up another spell in a day or so.


Nox Aeterna wrote:

Well , sometimes if you dont put players around things that are clearly weaker than them , they cant grasp how far they have come.

When they get to high level , few times allowing them to notice this by having them stomp certain enemies isnt necessarily a bad thing to me.

I do it simply to maintain a certain level of realism in the game world.

I mean, farmers aren't level 16 commoners. Not often, anyway.

If a group of adventurers decide to go decimate a small farming community, I let them, unless the story calls for something different.


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Matthew Downie wrote:
For a level 9 party, a group of level 2 bandits is a good role-playing opportunity.

Ah, level 2.

In my limited personal experience with high level play, teleporting past all the travel hasn't been a problem. In some cases we purposefully didn't use teleport to see some of the stuff in between; then we got attacked by an Ancient Blue Dragon. Good times.

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Matthew Downie wrote:
ryric wrote:
So he teleported right to the seller and dumped a giant pile of money on the ground, snatched the item, and teleported back.
That's a dangerous precedent for a GM to set. What if the casters start saying, "I teleport to the magic shop, grab the magic item, fail to dump a giant pile of money on the ground, and teleport back"?

I'm not really worried about it with this particular group - the least amount of gaming experience among the players is 15 years, so we know what we're doing and the social contract is pretty well established. I allowed the shopping for "rule of cool" purposes and trust that my players know if they abuse it, there will be consequences of the sort alexd1976 described.


alexd1976 wrote:
Nox Aeterna wrote:

Well , sometimes if you dont put players around things that are clearly weaker than them , they cant grasp how far they have come.

When they get to high level , few times allowing them to notice this by having them stomp certain enemies isnt necessarily a bad thing to me.

I do it simply to maintain a certain level of realism in the game world.

I mean, farmers aren't level 16 commoners. Not often, anyway.

If a group of adventurers decide to go decimate a small farming community, I let them, unless the story calls for something different.

Yeap , things is most groups remain good and wouldnt just attack farmers heh.

So maybe having some small group of monsters they dealt with at much lower level appear again and this time being owned is nice a few times.


Saldiven wrote:
I think random encounters are far more realistic than never running into anything anywhere except for designated adventure zones.

But you know what's really nice for that? When you don't have to choose between bogging the game down with pointless encounters or having the players walk through anomalously empty lands because they of their own accord choose to use teleport when traveling through low level areas.

Random encounters in relatively safe areas are a thing you have to use, not something you should want to keep using when provided with an excuse to stop.


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Atarlost wrote:
Saldiven wrote:
I think random encounters are far more realistic than never running into anything anywhere except for designated adventure zones.

But you know what's really nice for that? When you don't have to choose between bogging the game down with pointless encounters or having the players walk through anomalously empty lands because they of their own accord choose to use teleport when traveling through low level areas.

Random encounters in relatively safe areas are a thing you have to use, not something you should want to keep using when provided with an excuse to stop.

I always decide whether or not a random encounter happens. The random part is WHAT it is, not WHETHER it happens. :D

I also make an effort to tie it into the story.

Goblins on the highway? Sure. But why are they there? If it doesn't make sense, I skip it.

Story first.


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Alternately, it's possible to simply describe the encounters, implying stuff was there but not directly relevant to what they're doing. ("About a week out from the city, you noticed a caravan's guards cleaning up after an attack by goblins they'd easily repelled. Your actions in clearing Fort Evil seemed to have destabilized some of the monstrous groups in the region and made the area safer for travel. When you finally arrive at Big City, the first thing you see is...")


Atarlost wrote:
Saldiven wrote:
I think random encounters are far more realistic than never running into anything anywhere except for designated adventure zones.

But you know what's really nice for that? When you don't have to choose between bogging the game down with pointless encounters or having the players walk through anomalously empty lands because they of their own accord choose to use teleport when traveling through low level areas.

Random encounters in relatively safe areas are a thing you have to use, not something you should want to keep using when provided with an excuse to stop.

Nice selective quote. Notice the next paragraph where I said:

"That being said, overuse of random encounters can interrupt the flow of the game, so I don't use them to a significant degree unless they're germane to the story line as a whole."

You're the person that stated:

"They're boring and past low level they destroy verisimilitude because the game setting assumes that merchants are traveling the same routes."

Verisimilitude is just a fancy way of saying realism, the word meaning the appearance of being real. I pointed out that a complete lack of random encounters is the exact opposite of verisimilitude. Doing away with random encounters in total is nothing more than an act of convenience and has nothing to do with realism. Also, every route the players travel is not also a major trade route. The PCs very often do travel to areas other than major locations of commerce, seeing as how so many adventures take place in the wilderness.


GM Rednal wrote:
Alternately, it's possible to simply describe the encounters, implying stuff was there but not directly relevant to what they're doing. ("About a week out from the city, you noticed a caravan's guards cleaning up after an attack by goblins they'd easily repelled. Your actions in clearing Fort Evil seemed to have destabilized some of the monstrous groups in the region and made the area safer for travel. When you finally arrive at Big City, the first thing you see is...")

Agreed. These are the type of interactions that add depth and immersion to the campaign, and is why I continue to at least check for random encounters in town and during travels. Not a requirement to actually execute it, but I find it useful for helping me generate adventure hooks or linkages to the larger game world that I wouldn't have come up with if I stuck with only what I'd created for the current story arc. So rather than random encounter, maybe I'd describe it more as random inspiration (doesn't have to be a combat encounter either), some GMs use story cubes and MTG cards for inspiration as well.


The slow demise of random encounters as PCs become more powerful is the most realistic outcome. Even goblins aren't going to risk attacking the massive destructive force of high level PCs, let alone bandits and other smarter potential enemies.

Any enemies that might present a challenge are not like to take such a group lightly. They may surprise attack them with a good reason, but even an ancient dragon wants to go on being ancient and knows it's not invincible; and will only attack if the PCs are standing in the way of their plans.


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Create Mr. Pitt wrote:

The slow demise of random encounters as PCs become more powerful is the most realistic outcome. Even goblins aren't going to risk attacking the massive destructive force of high level PCs, let alone bandits and other smarter potential enemies.

Any enemies that might present a challenge are not like to take such a group lightly. They may surprise attack them with a good reason, but even an ancient dragon wants to go on being ancient and knows it's not invincible; and will only attack if the PCs are standing in the way of their plans.

If the ambushing party KNOWS the PC party is deadly, sure... they won't attack.

How would they know this though?

Well dressed people travelling in a small group, fine robes and expensive weapons...

Tempting target. Sure, the warrior looking types have fancy armor and swords, but maybe the risk is worth the reward.

My NPCs don't automatically know what level/CR the PC party is (and vice-versa, maybe that random bandit is actually a 14th level sorcerer!)

:D


I don't have any issue with teleports. I do however enforce the teleport mischance table as well as range limit. and remember the farther you're trying to travel, the more off base you will be when you misjump.


The person limit definitely has legs if you have familiars, pets or NPCs with you. A standard party of four with a familiar or pet would require a CL 12 mage with the requirement 3 more for each additional. Yes the mage can try to return with a mighty 25% chance of going off each time for approx a 75% chance of failing at least once across the three trips. How many mages carry 3 teleports unless they are fully expecting it.

Also the knowledge of a place can be tightly controlled - if things change its familiarity then off target is pretty much guaranteed.

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The one thing I've noticed when people call a spell overpowered is that they usually are not enforcing the limitations.

I remember someone complaining how Detect Magic was overpowered. They were not enforcing the concentration limit and 3 round to get detail limit.


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Tim Statler wrote:

The one thing I've noticed when people call a spell overpowered is that they usually are not enforcing the limitations.

I remember someone complaining how Detect Magic was overpowered. They were not enforcing the concentration limit and 3 round to get detail limit.

Almost certainly not true. I enforce all RAW restrictions of spells I think are overpowered and it turns out... they are still overpowered.


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I have no problem with Teleport. If the party wizard wants to put all his 5th level spells in Teleport so he can cast it 3 times to get the whole group out of trouble that's fine by me. I'm sure 3 5th level spells would have been used to just fight the encounter...but that's just me.

Let your high level PCs have nice things. Teleport only really works in places you've been. Even Greater Teleport, which only requires a "reliable description" can't get you everywhere.

Your party can teleport, Great! They still have to tromp through the forbidden forest to find the evil witches lair and then fight their way through the army of fiendish treants and evil fey to find the lost orb of Ortera that is guarded by the Witch and her Black Dragon cohort. They just get to Teleport home once their done, instead of spending 2 days wondering -back- through the woods.

I'm GMing Wrath of the Righteous. My players are level 14 tier 5. They have Greater Teleport, but still had to take the long way up river, because they didn't know where they were going. Problem solved.


Detect magic against the guy running away invisible gogogo :P.

Anzyr wrote:
Tim Statler wrote:

The one thing I've noticed when people call a spell overpowered is that they usually are not enforcing the limitations.

I remember someone complaining how Detect Magic was overpowered. They were not enforcing the concentration limit and 3 round to get detail limit.

Almost certainly not true. I enforce all RAW restrictions of spells I think are overpowered and it turns out... they are still overpowered.

To be fair , the whole thing about anything being OP or not is usually a personal choice of what something must do/have... to even be OP in the first place.

Like in this thread , some apparently think teleport is OP , others dont. Even if both agree on what it does.

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