Game Altering (or Game Breaking?) Spells: Teleport


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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The Sword wrote:

Ships do move, with a ship speed of 90ft, in the round it takes the wizard to switch from scry to teleport they are no longer teleporting to he deck of a ship but to open sea. Or instead of teleporting to the fore deck they are teleporting to the aft deck. At the very least the teleport spell should count as viewed once through the scry but you are well wishing your rights to say false destination if the surroundings have changed significantly.

Provided the ship is stationary and in calm seas you are ok. Why would any ship be stationary though, unless it is making repairs or damaged. Even if stationary if the water isn't calm it is moving both up and down, and pitching left to right. If the timing is off the. You are teleporting into the hold or 5-10 ft in the air.

For all these reasons I politely suggested the sorceress in. In my shackles game not take dimension door and teleport.

Now that you've seen that Dimension Door and Teleport are both valid options for boarding ships, are you going to have another talk with the sorceress in your S&S game?


The Sword wrote:

Okay, well it actually confirms that ships move and if you don't cast teleport immediately after scrying the spell fails. Your interpretation of immediate is up to you.

As I said, even if you count the locations as 'viewed once' by the scry spell then there is still a 25% chance of failure. I would image that the party disappearing just as their ship is about to get into combat would be a bad idea.

Incidentally as scry has to be cast on a creature how do you scry a ship when you don't know who any of the crew are? You need to have at least heard of the person you are scrying.

Those are some valid points on the spell specifics. If you wanted to make it more interesting by having a chance that some of the group ends up in the ocean, or just not allow it - or ensure the group understand its so dangerous they decide not to try it, its valid if its what you want.

Chase and board might be what you had in mind - so the group gets there for the story line one way or the other but one could be more fun and allow other things like skill checks swinging across on ropes etc.

If you're running a major ship/sea campaign there are going to be a lot of unique things come up.


Kudaku wrote:

Now that you've seen that Dimension Door and Teleport are both valid options for boarding ships, are you going to have another talk with the sorceress in your S&S game?

Nah, I'm alright cheers. As they have spent a book acquiring a pirate ship and a book outfitting it, I think they would prefer to use the pirate ship to take enemy ships.


The Sword wrote:
Kudaku wrote:

Now that you've seen that Dimension Door and Teleport are both valid options for boarding ships, are you going to have another talk with the sorceress in your S&S game?

Nah, I'm alright cheers. As they have spent a book acquiring a pirate ship and a book outfitting it, I think they would prefer to use the pirate ship to take enemy ships.

That's one nice thing in games with good commo and trust and shared expectations of the story telling, its not that you don't have to say "i might have missed that call last week", its that even if you do nobody is taking it personal or trying to turn the game into PvP or PvGM. Everyone is looking forward to where the story goes, and the rules are just a shaping mechanism and the d20 adds that "unknown" that surprises the GM and players alike.

Even if your table is a more battle focused square-counting type, if there is good commo, trust, and shared understanding that everyone wants to have fun and get challenged by the GM's encounters it doesn't turn into "he with most system mastery gets to beat the GM/fellow players".

Outfitting a pirate ship sounds pretty fun. I ran some seagoing adventures back in 1E, never a full campaign though. Making me think its time for a trip across the gulf near where my group is currently adventuring. Weresharks, Pirates, and Krakens...oh my.


I can't recommend the 'Fire As She Bears' booked by FGG enough. It adds cannons and totally changes the drama of the ship to ship combat. Anyway I've taken us a little off topic.


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The Sword wrote:

Okay, well it actually confirms that ships move and if you don't cast teleport immediately after scrying the spell fails. Your interpretation of immediate is up to you.

As I said, even if you count the locations as 'viewed once' by the scry spell then there is still a 25% chance of failure. I would image that the party disappearing just as their ship is about to get into combat would be a bad idea.

Incidentally as scry has to be cast on a creature how do you scry a ship when you don't know who any of the crew are? You need to have at least heard of the person you are scrying.

The rules in the AP indicates you have a short window. Teleport will go to a similar place, so being off the few feet the ship moves a round is not an issue. Also, teleporting to someplace you can see also helps.

While the scrying spell is upon a person, the clairvoyance spell is not. It is a valid choice for these tactics, but it is not as easy to say clairvoyance-and-fry, nor does it rhyme.

/cevah


Cevah wrote:
While the scrying spell is upon a person, the clairvoyance spell is not.

Clairvoyance: "You don't need line of sight or line of effect, but the locale must be known - a place familiar to you, or an obvious one."

But if the place you're using Clairvoyance on is familiar, couldn't you teleport there anyway?


Matthew Downie wrote:
Cevah wrote:
While the scrying spell is upon a person, the clairvoyance spell is not.

Clairvoyance: "You don't need line of sight or line of effect, but the locale must be known - a place familiar to you, or an obvious one."

But if the place you're using Clairvoyance on is familiar, couldn't you teleport there anyway?

The ship you are trying to capture is probably not familiar. :-)

While you can teleport line of sight, the distance we are talking about needs some form of enhanced perception to get the fix. We have a spyglass with 1/day clairvoyance of whatever you are looking at, even if a few miles away. The spell has this text:

Teleport wrote:
You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination.

While a ship in the distance probably falls under:

Teleport wrote:
"Studied carefully" is a place you know well, either because you can currently physically see it or you've been there often.

Given these conditions on the spell, having a better view helps eliminate teleport errors. [Our party has fallen prey to teleport error several times, and once to a teleport intercept. (Probably GM fiat since only a few players could make it that time.)]

/cevah


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The Sword wrote:
I can't recommend the 'Fire As She Bears' booked by FGG enough. It adds cannons and totally changes the drama of the ship to ship combat. Anyway I've taken us a little off topic.

...blahh... I got plot-line ninja'd by my 12 year old tonight!!!

I've been working with him about options for us vs rail-roading, and tonight he tosses out 3 possible plot hooks, one of which is hopping a navy clipper to go figure out why the silk shipments have stopped from a nearby island. Trying to let my wife and daughters PCs get more action so let them make the call....and we're out to sea. No teleporting we're only 3rd in his campaign at this point, but I was seriously working some ideas for ship-board on my campaign...alas it'll sit on back burner for now.

First time on a ship for my druid and his wolf...not seasick, but its a little lifeless for their tastes. Like the desert, but wet.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

My thoughts on teleport -

At its best, teleport can keep a story flowing without bogging down a campaign with repetitive camping journeys. This requires that players and GMs have an agreement not to overly use teleport. Such agreements can break down when the party is faced with an overwhelming threat, meant to capture or challenge the PCs and instead prompts them to take their ball and go home.

At its worst, things become "Tippyverse", and PCs abuse teleport spells to their logical limit to bypass challenges and obstacles. GMs use teleport to consistently make the BBEG escape, or conceive of unlikely hideouts. PCs and opponents always vanish in mid fight and return with a bunch of new provisions, while an arms race builds up with anti-teleport tactics. This can quickly reach levels of why have teleport if so many places have forbiddance or dimensional anchors, or any other teleport defenses commonly in place?

In my campaigns, most built fortresses and castles have such forbiddance spells placed in them. After all, if you spend that much gold and labor to build a defensive structure, you don't want just anyone to breeze through it with a dimension door spell. I let all players know this beforehand, though. This does not mean it is everywhere, just large, expensive defensive structures.

No one has much of a problem with short range teleporting, its the cross-continent greater teleports that cause headaches. Abuse can make it very difficult to plan campaigns, and too much teleport prevention tactics will make the PCs feel sour as you continually take their toy away.


1. Scry and Fry does not work in Golarion as per word of God.

2. Scry and Fry does work in Pathfinder.

3. Scry and Fry may not work at your table.


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Rhedyn wrote:

1. Scry and Fry does not work in Golarion as per word of God.

2. Scry and Fry does work in Pathfinder.

3. Scry and Fry may not work at your table.

As per #2, it works in theory.

It is likely that, in a world where such a tactic is considered viable, any target appropriate for such a tactic has taken steps necessary to make the tactic unusable. Whether it is protections from Divination magic or defenses against Teleport, the target would absolutely make use of any they can.

Throughout the history of conflict, when a new offensive tactic comes along, new defensive tactics are developed to negate or mitigate that offensive tactic. Even in the modern world of MIRV nuclear ICBMs, there are a variety of anti-missile and anti-warhead technologies in existence. It is silly to think that a BBEG with the capacity to do so wouldn't protect him/herself against such an obvious use of spells.


Cevah wrote:
The Sword wrote:

I hope the person getting into the sack is good at wriggling because the size of the bag means If spherical, the diameter of the bag is 16" in diameter. Have you ever tried squeezing through a space just over a foot wide? Possible with a substantial escape artist check heavily penalised for armour. If they are average sized.

Then there is the question of any sharp objects are going to rip the sack into the astral plane. Literally anything pointed or sharp.

Then there is the fact that the bag is just that, a bag, it's not a small room they can relax in comfort - they are in a sack. Two people in a sack? I hope they are very intimate with each other - as a party game Try it some time!

Then there is the fact that they must wait for the bag to be opened before the can get out. I would definitely send players in a bag of holding out of the room. It should feel uncomfortable and a bit frightening.

Sure they can use reduce person to get in, but that has an even smaller duration than air bubble.

random attacks at the other end of the teleport?

As the final solution for players abusing this to travel like a people trafficker. Have someone sleight of hand a folding up portable hole into their belongings. One way portal to the astral plane! : )

The point of the bag of holding is that it has no defined inside size. It holds a certain amount, but does not define how it fits. It holds anything that can fit through the opening. There is no crowding. The opening is a diameter of about 1'3.25". That is fine for a tiny creature, a squeeze for a small creature, and a DC30 escape artist check for a medium creature. Without armor, I would say a medium creature can get in by squeezing.

Scry-n-Fry example from my Skulls and Shackles game:
1) Spot a ship on the horizon about a day's sail away.
2) Pre buff with combat spells. Ninja is invisible.
3) Scry ship for a teleport fix.
4) Teleport.
5) ***
6) Profit.
Since the scry immediately preceded the teleport, even if...

Time stop could wreck some havoc with a scry and fry.


Rhedyn wrote:
Scry and Fry does not work in Golarion as per word of God.

Do you have a quote for that? It sounds like no-one told the writers of Skull & Shackles.


I know my GM was heard to say that if the PCs use Scry-n-Fry, so will the NPCs. Do we want to open that option?

We decided not to.

/cevah


Saldiven wrote:

1. What percentage of travel time by PCs is in civilized areas? Maybe 50%, depending on the campaign? In RotRL, for example, the vast majority of travel is through very unsettled lands; the only particularly settled area is the vicinity of Magnimar (even the settled area around Sandpoint is only a few miles in radius). Sure, a high level random encounter of an aggressive, monstrous type is unlikely in a more civilized area, but is much more likely in an unsettled area, which is where a significant amount of PC travel takes place. Additionally, if you plan in Golarion, very little of the world is actually highly civilized. Just look at the populations of the cities, the saturation of the settlements, and the distance between those settlements, and you will see that the VAST majority of Golarion is completely unsettled wilderness.

2. Not all random encounters are things that are aggressive and monstrous. Many can be opportunities for role playing, transfer of knowledge and information to the players, chances for plot advancement, and/or start points for optional side quests. It is perfectly appropriate for this type of encounter to occur in a civilized area.

Ergo: Random encounters are appropriate and pretty much anywhere, as long as the specific encounter is appropriately tailored to the location. Obviously, you wouldn't have a wandering encounter of a White Dragon outside the capital of Osirion. However, it's perfectly likely that you might run into a haughty, arrogant noble traveling with a large retinue of highly skilled bodyguards who demand the PCs yield the rode to his procession. An appropriate such encounter vastly improves the realism of the setting compared to the PCs never running into anything. The latter version is more like an MMO than it is a TTRPG.

1) An encounter of a high level monster is unlikely everywhere except its lair. To move 4 medium or smaller creatures (and it looks like even diminutive familiars count as their own creature) a wizard must be level 12. CR 12 monsters are too near the top of the food chain to use on random encounter tables: If you're in the hunting grounds of a young adult green dragon there is no encounter table. Everything else interesting has been driven off or eaten. Environments on the prime material that will support multiple CR 12 or higher monsters or monster packs are vanishingly rare.

2) Random encounters are not suitable for roleplaying. Just the fact of rolling for an encounter is a sign to the players that nothing that will result is important. It's the second surest metagame flag of boringness you can raise superseded only by having the a person they encounter being a mindless undead. If it were important you would have had the encounter happen nonrandomly. Besides, if you have traveling merchant on your rural encounter table your players will have already talked to them by the time they hit level 12 and the wizard can teleport without leaving people behind. If you want to buy or sell stuff you go to town on market day and all the merchants in the area are right there in town being nonrandom encounters. Or at least random encounters that cannot be bypassed by teleportation because the players are wandering around a market looking at every single stall to see what's on sale or who might be willing to buy the fifteen bolts of green linen they liberated from bandits. This is how adventurers have to do things for the first nine levels before the wizard can go intercontinental shopping while leaving one guy behind. All denying them teleport does is force them to talk to the same people over and over again and prevent them from going to major trade hubs where they can talk to new and different people and buy the gear the game's fundamental math assumes they will have.


Atarlost wrote:
2) Random encounters are not suitable for roleplaying. Just the fact of rolling for an encounter is a sign to the players that nothing that will result is important. It's the second surest metagame flag of boringness you can raise superseded only by having the a person they encounter being a mindless undead.

Maybe for you and your game. I've gotten a lot of mileage out of random encounters as a player and GM, both in engaging with the NPC or the interaction with the creatures and how the party handles it. Does it work better at low levels? Sure. But if your random charts are more than "X thing, kill it" and have reasons for the creatures being there, plot hooks tied in and more, then the players are rewarded instead of going from home base to the dungeon and back again with a side trip to sell all their loot.


Prob with Scry and Fry in Skull and Shackles are crews.

In all ship-to-ship encounters, it's implied that the crews are engaging each other and the PCs are only dealing with notable foes (that *is* actually written in the Ship-to-ship combat rules).
If the PCs teleport directly on to the opposing ship, they will need to deal with ALL of the crew.
And that can be fairly numerous.

Cevah wrote:


I know my GM was heard to say that if the PCs use Scry-n-Fry, so will the NPCs. Do we want to open that option?

We decided not to.

/cevah

What's good for the Goose is good for the Gander, eh?

I always tell my players that; they are free to use whatever creative solutions they want to problems... just know that NPCs will use such solutions back at them.


Atarlost wrote:


1) An encounter of a high level monster is unlikely everywhere except its lair. To move 4 medium or smaller creatures (and it looks like even diminutive familiars count as their own creature) a wizard must be level...

Unlikely unless in its lair? Unsuitable for role-playing? I doth protest good Sir.

Three High CR Random Encounters - No Lairs, Roleplaying As a Bonus.


Atarlost wrote:
1) An encounter of a high level monster is unlikely everywhere except its lair. To move 4 medium or smaller creatures (and it looks like even diminutive familiars count as their own creature) a wizard must be level 12. CR 12 monsters are too near the top of the food chain to use on random encounter tables: If you're in the hunting grounds of a young adult green dragon there is no encounter table. Everything else interesting has been driven off or eaten. Environments on the prime material that will support multiple CR 12 or higher monsters or monster packs are vanishingly rare.

It may be a house rule, but I though familiars did not count as a separate creature from the caster for things like travel magic.

Maybe they don't count if within the equipment of the caster. Like in a familiar pouch.

/cevah


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You want a fun house rule, rule that extra dimensional spaces or portals thereto cannot be teleported. No portable holes, no bags of holding ...


As has been noted by others, teleport is most game breaking when paired with scrying.
This PFS scenario practically begged for it

spoiler:
Darkest Abduction
.

To make matters worse the scenario seemed to anticipate the tactic and then explained within the write up why this might be difficult but failed to take into account an easy work around.

spoiler:
The mission is to recovery a missing lady. You are able to find a hairbrush of hers at the crime scene. This gives her a -4 or a -10 on her will save to resist your scrying attempt depending on whether there is any hair in the hairbrush. She certainly fails the save. The author seemed to anticipate this and there is a block explaining that she is kept in the dark of a sewer. Well that is no problem if the caster has dark vision. One teleport later and you have solved the entire scenario just as it starts.

This is more an example of the author not building a scenario with common tactics in mind and goes to the point that scenario design has a great deal to do with how broken teleport is.


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In my interpretation of RAW you can't do that. Teleport says you must know the "layout and location". Seeing the sewer with scrying will give you the layout, but unless you can deduce the location of that part of the sewer somehow, you can't teleport there.


Matthew Downie wrote:
In my interpretation of RAW you can't do that. Teleport says you must know the "layout and location". Seeing the sewer with scrying will give you the layout, but unless you can deduce the location of that part of the sewer somehow, you can't teleport there.

Idk about that. Seems the scryer has seen the location. You are assuming precise spatial knowledge is required, which is not the case with the spell.

You can always teleport home even if you are lost.


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Scrying doesn't say it automatically gives you the location of what you're looking at. Teleport says you must know the location. In my (biased) opinion, that justifies the way I run teleport. I would allow you to teleport home, because you know where home is, even if you don't know where you are right now.


MichaelCullen wrote:

As has been noted by others, teleport is most game breaking when paired with scrying.

This PFS scenario practically begged for it ** spoiler omitted **.

To make matters worse the scenario seemed to anticipate the tactic and then explained within the write up why this might be difficult but failed to take into account an easy work around. ** spoiler omitted **
This is more an example of the author not building a scenario with common tactics in mind and goes to the point that scenario design has a great deal to do with how broken teleport is.

I suppose that's one of the dangers of playing organized play vs home-brew. If you don't have the editorial liberty to adjust fire.

At home you could either set the scenario so scry will work, but teleport wont due to the construction materials blocking it, or that neither work (various reason for that in both spell descriptions). In any case, scrying is counted as having "seen once" 25% chance of failure, just land them either off target or in a "similar sewer" and get on with the scenario.

Or you can just be frank with your players - I honestly forgot you could scry and TP to solve this "mystery", so didn't account for it and if you do it like that we'll be done for the night because I figured this would take 3-4hours, or would you rather skip the scry/tp solution and play out the really cool investigation and intrigue scenario I spent a week creating for you guys?

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