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Does a tiny creature using a 5 foot step to enter an opponents space provoke an attack of opportunity when it does so?
Take 5-Foot Step
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity.
Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures:
... Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can't reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent.
Yes: Entering the square is what provokes the AoO , not the movement out of the previous square. (This would imply that a creature with combat reflexes could get 2 AoOs from a tiny creature approaching a medium one with normal movement: one for moving out of the square and 1 for entering the square)
No: A 5 foot step never provokes. The rules were written assuming normal movement.
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Yes. Moving into an opponent square provokes, period.
5ft step is an exception to the normal rule that movement provokes for moving around an opponent's threatened area.
And yes, a tiny creature moving from 10ft away to enter an opponents square would provoke 2 attacks of opportunity.
A tiny creature moving from 5ft away could 5ft step into the square, avoiding 1 attack of opportunity. But would still take the second for entering into a creature's square.
I believe Charging doesn't Provoke unless they have a feat... Hold the Line or something right?If the movement from charging would provoke, then it provokes.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
You would actually need the Charge Through feat to even attempt this, as the closest space from which you can attack must be unoccupied in order to attempt a charge (bolded in quote). Since you need to be in a target's square (which by default means it must be occupied), a default charge is not an option anyway.
Yes. Moving into an opponent square provokes, period.
5ft step is an exception to the normal rule that movement provokes for moving around an opponent's threatened area.
And yes, a tiny creature moving from 10ft away to enter an opponents square would provoke 2 attacks of opportunity.
A tiny creature moving from 5ft away could 5ft step into the square, avoiding 1 attack of opportunity. But would still take the second for entering into a creature's square.
I agree that it provokes, but I disagree that it provokes twice. It's still the same action (a single movement).
If it provokes twice, then a normal sized character moving through an opponent's square would also provoke twice and need a separate Acrobatics check for each provoking action (moving through a threatened area and moving through an opponent's square). I've never seen a GM run it that way.
(Likewise, I would not allow a character with Combat Reflexes to get multiple AoOs on an archer standing next to them and attacking with Rapid Shot: each shot is part of the same attack action.)
I always read the tiny creature thing as just reminding you that movement around threatened areas can lead to AoO as opposed to being a specifically different kind of movement as clarification of the movement adjacent and saying the square you are in is also 'adjacent' to you.
Whether or not your own square is adjacent is irrelevant as simply entering an adjacent square doesn't provoke. Leaving a threatened square is what provokes. So your own square being considered adjacent is only relevant when the opponent leaves it and thus provokes an AoO. The rules for tiny creatures says that they provoke for entering it as well.
I agree that it provokes, but I disagree that it provokes twice. It's still the same action (a single movement).
That doesn't matter if there are two different and independent reasons for attacks of opportunity. If the same act provokes twice for two different reasons, that's two different AoO.
Case in point. I attempt to kick (because my hands are full/bound/cut off at the shoulder) at a Swashbuckler. Since I lack Improved Unarmed Strike, I provoke an attack of opportunity from him. Since he's a Swashbuckler, he can also spend panache for an Opportune Parry and Riposte, both parrying my kick and counterattacking. I therefore draw two AoO and probably regret my decision (albeit briefly).
I agree that it provokes, but I disagree that it provokes twice. It's still the same action (a single movement).If it provokes twice, then a normal sized character moving through an opponent's square would also provoke twice and need a separate Acrobatics check for each provoking action (moving through a threatened area and moving through an opponent's square). I've never seen a GM run it that way.
(Likewise, I would not allow a character with Combat Reflexes to get multiple AoOs on an archer standing next to them and attacking with Rapid Shot: each shot is part of the same attack action.)
Hmmm...I had been thinking it provokes twice as well but you are right. It is like moving in a circle around an opponent. Even though you are leaving a threatened squares multiple times the Move action can only provoke once from that opponent.
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Imagine how much simpler the game would be without AoO.
I agree that it provokes, but I disagree that it provokes twice. It's still the same action (a single movement).That doesn't matter if there are two different and independent reasons for attacks of opportunity. If the same act provokes twice for two different reasons, that's two different AoO.
Case in point. I attempt to kick (because my hands are full/bound/cut off at the shoulder) at a Swashbuckler. Since I lack Improved Unarmed Strike, I provoke an attack of opportunity from him. Since he's a Swashbuckler, he can also spend panache for an Opportune Parry and Riposte, both parrying my kick and counterattacking. I therefore draw two AoO and probably regret my decision (albeit briefly).
Actually that is not correct. In your example you only provoked once. The swashbuckler is using a deed to take an unprovoked AoO. Nothing in Opportune Parry and Riposte says anything about provoking. The barbarian standing right next to the swashbuckler would get an AoO from your kick but would not get one because of the swashbuckler's parry because there was no second provocation.
Another example of multiple AoOs from the same action: Cast a ranged Touch spell. You provoke once for casting, and once for making a ranged attack.
That is actually incorrect as well. An opponent would only get one AoO from that action.
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Another example of multiple AoOs from the same action: Cast a ranged Touch spell. You provoke once for casting, and once for making a ranged attack.That is actually incorrect as well. An opponent would only get one AoO from that action.
Check the actions in combat table. Casting provokes, and making a ranged attack provokes. The only way it wouldn't provoke twice is if the caster cast defensively or had the point blank master feat.
I'd say it's actually two separate actions. The spell cast and then a free action to deliver the touch.Another example of multiple AoOs from the same action: Cast a ranged Touch spell. You provoke once for casting, and once for making a ranged attack.That is actually incorrect as well. An opponent would only get one AoO from that action.
Had to look it up but sure enough you are right. In the section touch spells in combat it does say that you get to make a touch attack as a free action so it is indeed a separate action.
Still that means it isn't a valid example of one action provoking twice.
Check the actions in combat table. Casting provokes, and making a ranged attack provokes. The only way it wouldn't provoke twice is if the caster cast defensively or had the point blank master feat.
You are correct but per the rules cited above it is actually two separate actions that are provoking.
Another example of multiple AoOs from the same action: Cast a ranged Touch spell. You provoke once for casting, and once for making a ranged attack.That is actually incorrect as well. An opponent would only get one AoO from that action.
Our opinions differ.
There's specifically a FAQ addressing this in the context of trip attacks:
The Greater Trip feat allows you to take an attack of opportunity against a foe that you trip. The Vicious Stomp feat allows you to take an attack of opportunity against a foe that falls prone adjacent to you. If you have both these feats and trip a foe, do you get to make two attacks of opportunity (assuming that you can)?Yes, the two triggering acts are similar here but they are different. One occurs when you trip a foe. The other occurs when a foe falls prone. It requires a large number of feats to accomplish, but you can really pile on the attacks with this combination.
... one action, two additional attack of opportunity.
I agree that it provokes, but I disagree that it provokes twice. It's still the same action (a single movement).
If it provokes twice, then a normal sized character moving through an opponent's square would also provoke twice and need a separate Acrobatics check for each provoking action (moving through a threatened area and moving through an opponent's square). I've never seen a GM run it that way.
(Likewise, I would not allow a character with Combat Reflexes to get multiple AoOs on an archer standing next to them and attacking with Rapid Shot: each shot is part of the same attack action.)
So a couple problems I see.
1) You can only move through an opponents square if you can beat the acrobatics DC (which is higher than the general DC to not provoke for movement). If you fail you lose the move action and provoke. I interpret this as being an acrobatics check to both negate the AoO and move through the square. So the reason why it doesn't provoke twice, is because you've already used acrobatics to negate the AoO.
2)
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.
While it's clearly movement out of multiple threatened squares doesn't provoke more than once, you're not provoking for moving out of a threatened square more than once. You're provoking for entering into an opponents square as a tiny creature, because the rules specifically say you do. These are two separate things that occur while moving, and are two separate causes that both provoke.
3) Each shot of archer's bow does absolutely provoke. Every single ranged attack provokes, assuming you don't have Point Blank Master. Rapid shot is no different than having an extra attack from high BAB in how it provokes.
We discussed this a few months ago in this thread
Not exactly the same as that conversation wasn't about the 5' Step, but it's the same situation and the same reasoning applies.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Another example of multiple AoOs from the same action: Cast a ranged Touch spell. You provoke once for casting, and once for making a ranged attack.That is actually incorrect as well. An opponent would only get one AoO from that action.
No, you have a common confusion. But the spell provokes and the ranged touch attack provokes.
I agree that it provokes, but I disagree that it provokes twice. It's still the same action (a single movement).
If it provokes twice, then a normal sized character moving through an opponent's square would also provoke twice and need a separate Acrobatics check for each provoking action (moving through a threatened area and moving through an opponent's square). I've never seen a GM run it that way.
(Likewise, I would not allow a character with Combat Reflexes to get multiple AoOs on an archer standing next to them and attacking with Rapid Shot: each shot is part of the same attack action.)
So a couple problems I see.
1) You can only move through an opponents square if you can beat the acrobatics DC (which is higher than the general DC to not provoke for movement). If you fail you lose the move action and provoke. I interpret this as being an acrobatics check to both negate the AoO and move through the square. So the reason why it doesn't provoke twice, is because you've already used acrobatics to negate the AoO.
That's actually my point:
If these are two separate, provoking actions, then you would need to make TWO Acrobatics checks: one to avoid the AoO from moving through a threatened space and one to move through the enemy's square.If "move through an enemy's square" is just an higher-DC extension of "move through a threatened space" (which is how every GM I know plays it), then "enter an enemy's square" is not a separate action that provokes a separate AoO.
To compare:
If I cast a spell that requires a ranged touch attack while I am in melee, I am taking two separate actions that provoke AoOs:
A) I am casting a spell while in melee (and I can cast defensively to avoid this)
B) I am making a ranged attack while in melee (and my defensive casting can't avoid this AoO)
If there are two separate actions that provoke, then one single check can't avoid both AoOs (barring any specific abilities). If one check can avoid all AoOs, then they aren't separate actions.
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Maybe the AoO to enter an opponent square is meant to be a reminder of the AoO for leaving the threatened square you have to go through to enter the square. That would make the acrobatic rules make more sense.
Exactly the point I made in the thread I linked above. I'm fairly sure this is what that dev who wrote that bit of the rules was trying to say, but said poorly.
Any other interpretation is mechanically awkward.
Another example of multiple AoOs from the same action: Cast a ranged Touch spell. You provoke once for casting, and once for making a ranged attack.That is actually incorrect as well. An opponent would only get one AoO from that action.Our opinions differ.
There's specifically a FAQ addressing this in the context of trip attacks:
... one action, two additional attack of opportunity.
The Greater Trip feat allows you to take an attack of opportunity against a foe that you trip. The Vicious Stomp feat allows you to take an attack of opportunity against a foe that falls prone adjacent to you. If you have both these feats and trip a foe, do you get to make two attacks of opportunity (assuming that you can)?Yes, the two triggering acts are similar here but they are different. One occurs when you trip a foe. The other occurs when a foe falls prone. It requires a large number of feats to accomplish, but you can really pile on the attacks with this combination.
I think I see where we are disagreeing. They way I am reading those feats is that they are allowing you to take an AoO even though the enemy did not take a provoking action, it is the feat that is providing the AoO. You are reading it to say that since the feats are allowing you to take an AoO they are implicitly adding those actions to the list of things that provoke for you even though the word "provoke" isn't explicitly written.
After going back and looking at the AoO rules it specifically calls out that moving out of more than one threatened square in a round does not provoke multiple AoOs but does not say anything about other provoking actions not provoking more than once.
Given all that it seems your interpretation is more likely the correct one after all.
Maybe the AoO to enter an opponent square is meant to be a reminder of the AoO for leaving the threatened square you have to go through to enter the square. That would make the acrobatic rules make more sense.Exactly the point I made in the thread I linked above. I'm fairly sure this is what that dev who wrote that bit of the rules was trying to say, but said poorly.
Any other interpretation is mechanically awkward.
Except they don't include similar reminder text in any other instance. They don't remind you that moving 5' in difficult terrain will provoke because you can't take a 5' step. It is just assumed that you know leaving a threatened square provokes unless you are taking a 5' step.
The reason you don't have to make multiple acrobatics rolls is because the rules specifically states that moving out of multiple threatened squares only provokes once. It is a special case.
Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.
Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures: Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2-1/2 feet across, so four can fit into a single square. 25 Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can't reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can't flank an enemy.
It just states that moving into or through an opponents square provokes. There is nothing in either context that suggests that is reminder text anymore than the rules for crawling or standing up.
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Does a tiny creature using a 5 foot step to enter an opponents space provoke an attack of opportunity when it does so?
Take 5-Foot Step
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movements. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity.
Looks pretty open and shut to me. Taking a 5 foot step? You don't provoke. It doesn't say you don't provoke for leaving threatened squares, it says you don't provoke period.
That's actually my point:
If these are two separate, provoking actions, then you would need to make TWO Acrobatics checks: one to avoid the AoO from moving through a threatened space and one to move through the enemy's square.If "move through an enemy's square" is just an higher-DC extension of "move through a threatened space" (which is how every GM I know plays it), then "enter an enemy's square" is not a separate action that provokes a separate AoO.
To compare:
If I cast a spell that requires a ranged touch attack while I am in melee, I am taking two separate actions that provoke AoOs:
A) I am casting a spell while in melee (and I can cast defensively to avoid this)
B) I am making a ranged attack while in melee (and my defensive casting can't avoid this AoO)If there are two separate actions that provoke, then one single check can't avoid both AoOs (barring any specific abilities). If one check can avoid all AoOs, then they aren't separate actions.
I still disagree. Just because you only make 1 acrobatics check doesn't necessarily mean anything about the number of attacks of opportunity you would otherwise provoke. How acrobatics functions does not prove the number of provocations. Rather, it's likely written this way because having to roll twice against 1 opponent against their CMD and their CMD + 5 only serves to make it much more difficult to actually accomplish the goal. Hardline RAW, I would say we should actually roll twice to negate the AoO for moving in threatened squares, and one for entering another creatures square. But as a GM I wouldn't do that because it slower than just having them roll once against CMD + 5, and most monsters don't have combat reflexes so it's not pertinent.
If the rule from tiny creatures was simply a reminder that movement would normally provoke then that would simply the situation. But, as written currently it is distinctly different.
Looks pretty open and shut to me. Taking a 5 foot step? You don't provoke. It doesn't say you don't provoke for leaving threatened squares, it says you don't provoke period.Does a tiny creature using a 5 foot step to enter an opponents space provoke an attack of opportunity when it does so?
Take 5-Foot Step
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movements. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity.
You quoted the text but then reworded it incorrectly. 5' step says that 5' step doesn't provoke. That is it. The act of taking a 5' step never provokes. Entering an opponents square does. So if you 5' step into an opponent's square your 5' step does NOT provoke an AoO because 5' steps don't provoke but entering your opponent's square is a completely different provoking condition and still provokes an AoO.
Hey, let's look at this
thread where it was discussed before!
It just states that moving into or through an opponents square provokes. There is nothing in either context that suggests that is reminder text anymore than the rules for crawling or standing up.
I agree that there is nothing in the text itself to suggest that, but it's the only explanation that makes sense to me. After all, unlike standing up, moving into someone's square provokes AoOs anyway - and it would be easy for an inexperienced GM to forget this. So what purpose does this rule serve? It can't be to make 5 foot steps provoke, because they never provoke, and if the rule was created just to override that, it would surely say so specifically.
Hey, let's look at this
thread where it was discussed before!
I just noticed that. There now appear to be three. I've apparently been replying in all three different threads without realizing and am now all confused lol.
You quoted the text but then reworded it incorrectly. 5' step says that 5' step doesn't provoke. That is it. The act of taking a 5' step never provokes. Entering an opponents square does. So if you 5' step into an opponent's square your 5' step does NOT provoke an AoO because 5' steps don't provoke but entering your opponent's square is a completely different provoking condition and still provokes an AoO.Looks pretty open and shut to me. Taking a 5 foot step? You don't provoke. It doesn't say you don't provoke for leaving threatened squares, it says you don't provoke period.Does a tiny creature using a 5 foot step to enter an opponents space provoke an attack of opportunity when it does so?
Take 5-Foot Step
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movements. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity.
No, because otherwise a 5-foot step would never work. For example, a five foot step out of a threatened area would draw an AoO. Your argument suggests "The five foot step wouldn't provoke, moving out of the threatened space would."
I just noticed that. There now appear to be three. I've apparently been replying in all three different threads without realizing and am now all confused lol.Hey, let's look at this
thread where it was discussed before!
1) for an FAQ request they want a clearly stated question right up front.
2) As a druid i cannot condone thread necro :)
You quoted the text but then reworded it incorrectly. 5' step says that 5' step doesn't provoke. That is it. The act of taking a 5' step never provokes. Entering an opponents square does. So if you 5' step into an opponent's square your 5' step does NOT provoke an AoO because 5' steps don't provoke but entering your opponent's square is a completely different provoking condition and still provokes an AoO.Looks pretty open and shut to me. Taking a 5 foot step? You don't provoke. It doesn't say you don't provoke for leaving threatened squares, it says you don't provoke period.Does a tiny creature using a 5 foot step to enter an opponents space provoke an attack of opportunity when it does so?
Take 5-Foot Step
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movements. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity.
I could use your logic and say that a five foot step out of a threatened square provokes. It's not the step that provoked, it was the square leaving.
See how that breaks down?
Moving out of a threatened square provokes. But if you used a five foot step, it doesn't, as five foot steps never provoke. Entering an opponents square provokes. But if you used a five foot step, it doesn't, because five foot steps never provoke.
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I just noticed that. There now appear to be three. I've apparently been replying in all three different threads without realizing and am now all confused lol.Hey, let's look at this
thread where it was discussed before!
1) for an FAQ request they want a clearly stated question right up front.
2) As a druid i cannot condone thread necro :)
I think I've seen six threads recently on this... :P
My understanding of the rule is that the action of provoking from movement, and the action of provoking when moving into a creatures space when you are tiny are two different triggers. Therefore, if a tiny creature took a move action when starting next to someone, and moved through their space to get to somewhere else it would provoke two seperate AoO's from that individual. One for the movement, and one for entering its space.
So the action of 5 foot stepping into a creatures space does not provoke from the 5 foot step, and only provokes from entering a creatures space. Thus resulting on 1 AoO.
I don't have much sway in this argument since I'm the GM that did this to BigNorse, but that was my understanding.
You did it to your own tooth fairies, and they always deserve an extra thwack to the face :)
Part of the advantage to playing with lots of different people is seeing lots of different ways to read the rules. This one is very much like that picture thats a candlestick or two faces, depending on how you look at it. I can definitely see both sides of it depending on which way i squint.
This one looks like a pretty even split so I figured I'd try to get it FAQd before it comes up on the other kitsune who pretty much lives in opponents squares.
FWIW, as I see it the rules for fine diminuitive and tiny creatures creates a new and specific AoO for entering an opponents square that is separate and distinct from the general rules. It is in addition to the rules for leaving a threatened square.
This AoO is not covered by the 5' step rules, because you are not provoking from the 5' step, you are provoking from entering a square with intent to attack.
It cannot be avoided with a separate second acrobatics check as it is not a check to move through an occupied square. It is moving into a square to attack someone.
It cannot be avoided with a separate second acrobatics check as it is not a check to move through an occupied square. It is moving into a square to attack someone.
Now that I don't see at all. If you can cartwheel through someone's legs i see no reason why you can't stop in their square if its a legal spot for you.