Angry Ghost's page

Well with the full BAB, excellent stamina and HP we assumed it would be a front lined combatant. Now fighters I would assume fall into that category. But either the armor or the weapon and only proficient with light armor made it painful in a couple of areas..

So I guess it is a fighter in a way that has given up feats and such for revelations and abilities that have a warm up period.

If it was a monk wisdom to armor would be nice since they are stuck using light armor (atleast unless a feat is spent for a proficiency)

Largely what was wanted was a soldier with some flare as we are use to using monks for combat maneuvers which you can no longer use part of an attack action but have to be the entirety of it.

So from the two groups I have been playing with, it is viewed as a direct combat front light combatant with the BAB, high stamina and HP. Perhaps if those were lowered people would view it more as combat support or controller?

I would like to identify a few problems with the solarian.

• Solarian Problem #1: The solarian is a Strength-based melee class, with mandatory class features that key off melee attacks. Despite this, it starts with only light armor proficiency, and its solar armor can be used only in light armor (whether or not it works in powered armor is ambiguous). Therefore, right from the start, solar armor is a useless class feature, and a solarian is behooved to blow their 1st-level feat on Heavy Armor Proficiency.

465 credit hidden soldier armor might impose -5 speed, but it grants 2 more EAC and KAC than 460 credit kasatha microcord I.
2,970 credit lashunta ringwear II has 3 more EAC and 4 more KAC than a 2,980 credit D-suit I.
The difference only increases from there.

Solar armor can be vindicated by allowing it to work with powered armor, but that is currently a grey area in the rules.

• Solarian Problem #2: The solar weapon is all but useless from 1st to 5th level. It is much better for a solarian to pick up a tactical pike and avail of 1d8 damage and reach that can still target adjacent creatures. 1d6 damage is pathetic.

The solar weapon finally vindicates itself at 6th level as it finally attains 2d6 damage, which goes up to 2d6+1d4 (critical bleed 1d6) with a 3,050-credit least W-boson crystal. Hooray!

Unfortunately, by 9th level, the solar weapon reaches 3d6 damage, which rises to 5d6 (critical bleed 2d6) with a 26,200-credit lesser W-boson crystal. Meanwhile, an 18,100-credit ultrathin curve blade deals 3d10 damage (critical bleed 2d6), only 1 less on average, and is significantly more economical.

In other words, the solar weapon is totally useless at 1st to 5th level, fairly useful from 6th to 8th level, and back in the dumpster from 9th to 11th level. It flip-flops back and forth between "useless" and "good" depending on the level and the affordable weapons then. This is not a good sign for a class feature.

• Solarian Problem #3: The solarian is a Strength-based melee class, yet its...

Well your posting has been very informative, and the issues you discussed have been happening and it does seem that the solarian does have a problem keeping up with damage when give equal amounts of funding at higher levels..

Sadly this has proven depressing/ disheartening in the play-throughs we have done... not sure if there is going to be an errata or something for this because 2 of us really wanted to like this alternate combatant.

This may require some homebrew/ rules to make it less gimped.. one idea we were bouncing around is letting them get some kind of "two weapon fighting" where they get perhaps another attack at lower levels or 2 attacks normally and 3 on a full attack..

still working on playing this through but that was one suggestion we came up with in house.

Talonhawke wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Talonhawke wrote:

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Angry Ghost wrote:

{. . .}

But the reason I am largely apprehensive about adding politics to pathfinder is a simple experience, when someone, a player walks away from your table before a session and no longer wants to return just because "you voted Trump" and not being open to talk about it or even discuss reasoning's, casting aside all the fun gaming sessions and times had in the past.

That is going to happen (probably at about the same rate) regardless of whether the Paizo Messageboards allow political discussions.

I would assume that it is possible that having the coversation on the boards about who was voted for could possibly cause more of this than not having if only because most random strangers won't know who was voted for unless your advertising it, but if you know who I am on Paizo and you really want to know you can check my posting history and find out based on that who I probably voted for. That being said if the only reason someone wouldn't want to play with you is based of only who you voted for, you might be better off without them.

You say that like "who you voted for" this election is such a teeny, insignificant thing of no consequence.

One good thing I got out of the Political threads is that I got to see plenty of people's true colors, and it let me know who i had to be wary of.

I said if that was the only reason, if other things have been said or done that paint a wider picture of a person sure you may not want to be at their table. But if the only thing you know about the guy playing the elven wizard is that he voted Trump and you refuse to game with him at all over that then he isn't the problem.

It may not be enough all by itself, but it's a big red flag. It's a strong hint.

For me, in a pick-up store or con game, it wouldn't be enough to walk out. But then I'm a straight, white guy. The threat isn't as personal to me. I'm sure as hell not...

Well that's the odd thing, still playing, my current players who knew my stand, are a homosexual white male, a bisexual white female, and a heterosexual white male... the one who left was an additional heterosexual white male.

So out of 4 players 3 stayed, and the one who left was a straight white male whom I had known for years (8+)

But its whatever honestly.

I am also unable to access My Downloads or My Account tabs no matter what I try, Firefox, IE or smart phone.

I can confirm the same issue

Sundakan wrote:

People of all beliefs were allowed to participate in the discussions before, I see no reason why that would change. But the politics of this site do lean a certain way, in general. The people who are opposed or come slant-wise on those majority beliefs are, naturally going to come into conflict.

I'm not sure where you get idea of an echo chamber from by allowing people to post. You'd be as free to disagree as ever.

Did you not see the election thread before it got nuked? Insults and name-calling were routine, but when it came from the pro-Hillary camp, it was allowed to stand unchallenged. It didn't take long for the whole thread to devolve into a "Hillary or GTFO" dumpster fire.

Yes, I am technically allowed to post, but when I know it means I will be subject to insults and abuse that is implicitly approved by the mods, why would I want to?

It is definitely frustrating, knowing that only one side must cling to social niceties, while the other is free to fire away.

Makes having a polite and friendly debate/ conversation very difficult.

Conservatives are a minority here. Being in the minority sucks.

On the other hand, "I don't like being in the minority, therefore I want to shut down all discussion" sucks more. :P

Being in a minority is awesome! Asian Male for the win! I have been use to being small in number and out numbered by others.(US Army)

but on a serious note, I can see that true.

Angry Ghost wrote:

Hmm then on second thought perhaps a grand social experiment in the paizo universe. Maybe if we tried a social thread, that perhaps was more than one side bashing political parties/ candidates it would be grand. I am afraid that it would turn out more like "I think candidate X is horrible and shouldn't be given a chance because of Y" or "President X did better than President Y will".

So many political threads are so quick to point out the negative, how about this, if we want to say something negative, at the same time post something positive in the same post? Just so people have to do digging on both sides of their opinion?

We've had plenty of discussions that were "more than one side bashing political parties/ candidates". It's not clear to me, but it sounds like you haven't really paid much attention to the poli-threads before?

I suspect any simple metric like you propose would just provoke more bickering, nitpicking and need for moderating whether posts were really including positive comments. It also completely breaks any flow of discussion, since people may have to reach off the immediate topic to find the positive.

Well I havent been able to spend copious amounts of hours milling over the threads to search for those topics if thats what you mean. With the Army and full time college going on let it suffice to say the amount of time I can go through Paizo threads and multi post is thin.

and exactly, it would break the flow in causing a moment to reflect and understand that neither party or candidate was completely evil. It would promote looking into both parties and not just simply scrounging around for "dirty laundry"

But the reason I am largely apprehensive about adding politics to pathfinder is a simple experience, when someone, a player walks away from your table before a session and no longer wants to return just because "you voted Trump" and not being open to talk about it or even discuss reasoning's, casting aside all the fun gaming sessions and times had in the past.

Hmm then on second thought perhaps a grand social experiment in the paizo universe. Maybe if we tried a social thread, that perhaps was more than one side bashing political parties/ candidates it would be grand. I am afraid that it would turn out more like "I think candidate X is horrible and shouldn't be given a chance because of Y" or "President X did better than President Y will".

So many political threads are so quick to point out the negative, how about this, if we want to say something negative, at the same time post something positive in the same post? Just so people have to do digging on both sides of their opinion?

The LGBT thread has been running for years just fine with minimal bumps in the road.

That's excellent then, I wonder as I have now just heard about it others are just hearing about it, will it attract more trolls? I hope not and hopefully it continues to run well, now with things being what they are now, do you think the politics thread if one is introduced will run as "bump free".

RPG gamers tend to be more able in discussing things as that is the meat and potatoes of the game, at least for table top, *shakes cane at video game consoles* durned kids.

But *ahem*

If they are running great that's awesome, I just remember there was a slight incident and misunderstanding on the Starfinder thread, and I was worried it would be open for a repeat.

Well, while I believe discussion is great, a post and thread are proabably not the best place to have them. So far we have had them in coffee shops and campus in the area. The reason I think this is because its harder to convey your thought in simple text, without it getting misunderstood. People being people will take what they want out of it and use something how they see fit even going as far as interpreting it how they want to fit their narrative.

For something as active and intense as politics and the LGBT thread and whether they should exist on Paizo... I would say no. But that doesn't mean I am against discussing it, I just don't think it will be constructive to the Pathfinder/ Paizo community. It would be destructive as you would have many a troll who would simply get his kicks off of causing problems and being able to hide behind the anonymity of the internet with just a simple account ban or warning. The situation would become quickly toxic due to these trolls and misunderstandings, which would lead to people getting angry and a lot of the moderators time would be spent hovering over them.

These topics are immensely important to society, but I don't think a message board would be able to host the level of maturity needed for it.

If people really want to debate, they can skype, use emails or something. I just haven't seen this very helpful in the past and can lead to division and a lot of hard feelings.

Angry Ghost wrote:

Archmage Variel wrote:

Angry Ghost wrote:

girl who shifts her body into different weapons...

Could make an interesting technomancer racial archetype. Sorta like the nanite bloodline.

Excellent because in the Playstation game Xenogears Emeralda was a living Nanite Colony.

What was done to create the "nano colony" in the game you had?

Hrmm will have to take a look at the technomancer.

Nanite Colony is a sorcerer bloodline from the People of the River pathfinder player companion. It basically means you gained your powers by somehow getting nanites inside your body and as you level the nanites slowly replace your organic body until you simply become a humanoid nanite colony/swarm.

Sweet! people of the River it is!

thanks much!

Angry Ghost wrote:

girl who shifts her body into different weapons...

Could make an interesting technomancer racial archetype. Sorta like the nanite bloodline.

Excellent because in the Playstation game Xenogears Emeralda was a living Nanite Colony.

What was done to create the "nano colony" in the game you had?

Hrmm will have to take a look at the technomancer.

I wonder if they will do anything kind of Xenogears-ish, like Emeralda, the Nano-colony girl who shifts her body into different weapons...

If Starfinder can lend itself to something Xenogears-ish or even Xenosaga-ish that would be fulfilling a childhood dream.

So the class is the culmination of the learned experience.

The INT Stat is the basic ability to process book learning

The WIS stat is the basic ability to Process Judgement and out come based off of experience then?

That's interesting to see it put that way, I can definitely understand that, in that an individual could be highly skilled and still be of average INT, while in Pathfinder/ D&D all of the rouges have pretty much been rocket scientists.

Now I am curious, are they still going to stick with 6 stats? Will they perhaps dump some stats just so there are no dump stats? What would INT be good for then? Perhaps just something to add to the stat, I would imagine that there will be a lot more skills. Will the skills be broad to encompass a large variety, or will there be very specific skills.

Like instead of Lockpicking/ slight of hand?
Would you have Lock Picking: Mechanical Lock
Lock Picking: Digital Lock
Lock Picking: Biometric Lock

And piloting and driving to.
Because a jet, helicopter and car all operate differently.

Howdy, like it says just looking for players, not really looking for a super competitive group but more on the friendly side of things

Angry Ghost wrote:

Well I have had the problems stated above, where one person builds an optimized build and the others want to build something more along the lines of concepts where they view their characters living a life and growing in multiple directions on things as opposed to every single second and fiber of their being, wholly devoted to one concept or aspect like the perfect sneak attack.

And the Single player who is optimizing purely so he can be stronger than the other players and shows no interest in helping other players optimize. He also told me that Pathfinder and D&D are actually PVP games and not so much PVE and has expressed a desire to win Pathfinder, quite literally.

These are the sorts of players that can challenge friendships and usually need to be dealt with quickly before they drive others away. As always, talking with them should be attempted before kicking them to the curb.

Yup, and the reply we got was:

"I always play to win, no matter what I will survive"

so yes, we separated ways, the gaming group and him.

Well I have had the problems stated above, where one person builds an optimized build and the others want to build something more along the lines of concepts where they view their characters living a life and growing in multiple directions on things as opposed to every single second and fiber of their being, wholly devoted to one concept or aspect like the perfect sneak attack.

And the Single player who is optimizing purely so he can be stronger than the other players and shows no interest in helping other players optimize. He also told me that Pathfinder and D&D are actually PVP games and not so much PVE and has expressed a desire to win Pathfinder, quite literally.

Well howdy, is there an Errata for the bladed scarf dancer that gives it a performance skill: Dancing or something?

because Perform isn't a class skill for them...

am I missing something?

thanks

I've added two more tricks to list, these two focus on putting out more damage. They'll also have advanced and master counter parts so they can scale.

White Lance (Su):The white-haired witch winds her hair into one long tendril and lashes out at her enemies with greater force than usual. As a full attack action, the white-haired witch makes a single attack that does an additional 2d6 piercing type damage. When the white-haired witch may do this maneuver a number of times per day equal to her level plus her intelligence modifier. Using this trick immediately ends the: Climbing, Defense, Disarm, Gliding, Utility, tricks and if the witch has a creature grappled in her hair, she ends the grapple.

Rake (Su): The white-haired witch has learned to strike her foes in a way that can cut and rend flesh. As a full attack action, the witch makes a single attack that deals slashing type damage, and does 1d4 bleed damage for 1d6 rounds. A witch may perform this trick a number of times per day equal to her witch level plus her intelligence modifier. Using this trick immediately ends the: Climbing, Defense, Disarm, Gliding, Utility, tricks and if the witch has a creature grappled in her hair, she ends the grapple.

And here's what I came up with for the familiar trick.

Familiar (Ex): From the tumbles of her hair, the white-haired witch summons an animal manifestation of her patron. This ability functions exactly like the Witch’s Familiar class feature, aside from the witch still stores her spells within her hair. The familiar springs out from the white-haired witches hair as a swift action. You must choose an animal from the Witch’s Familiar list, once it has been made it cannot be changed.

I think that one could use work.

Ok, so played this alittle bit, level 1 to level 2 white haired witch, and the half witch level + Int for the BAB to attack with the hair has literally left the witch with an inability to strike and hit in combat. Especially with the Twin Tails, the extra things you gave to the hair is awesome, but we have largely found the hair was ineffective in combat. It just needs perhaps a higher BAB or something so that the penalties to attack with twin tails at level 2 isn't so incapable.

This is just my current experience with the playtest from level 1 to level 2 and part way through level 2, we are continuing to see how it progresses. No one really has magical items so its just characters abilities at this point.

Will Keep you informed

Sincerely,
The Angry Ghost

It has the usual gunslinger fare of "whelp, I'm finding it real gosh darn hard to justify staying in this class for more than 5 levels", so if your goal was to make an archetype on par with the base gunslinger, you succeeded.

Slightly worse than pistolero in straight DPS, since that one can grab signature deed for its damage bonus, and TWF double barrel pistols. Probably not a problem tho. May want to put in either some range boosting or some melee ability in there.

My big question is that since they are not firing guns.. then technically do the cards go against full ac then? Though the 1d4 for the dart damage does shrink when compared to the 1d8 of the pistol, even more so if the cards don't get touch.

I actually really liked this.

One thing I would do though is remove the rounds/minutes per day per level for the Glide tricks.

Why do you feel that is necessary? Just have it be something they can do all the time. Heck if a normal witch took the right hex, she can featherfall all day long if she wants right? Why does this character have to be limited in that way.

And as for Advance Gliding you really think that one is going to come up all that many times when she can take the advanced tricks? Just totally remove all these per level time things.

You also have to consider that combat maneuvers get really hard to pull off as you increase in level, with all the jumbo size things out there that proliferate as you level.

Int and character/caster level to combat maneuvers isn't going to cut it. Any maneuver build needs a trick of some sort to pull it off. Whether it is something like a barbarian's strength surge, or a true strike spell (which isn't on the witch list unless a patron gives it).

You need some kind of feature like "Big Hair" that increases the size category of the hair for maneuvers, and then "Big, Big, Hair" to do it even more.

I'm not even joking. Look at the cmd of common opponents at like level 15, and tell me how you pull off a maneuver. Unless you are fighting some kind of humanoid with class levels.

Ahhh, so perhaps more consistent effects, something that offers considerable reliability throughout a session as opposed to an encounter?

Card origami was what I was pictured when I wrote that ability! Hm, I'm debating on what to do with Card Trick (create difficult terrain).

Angry Ghost wrote:

This is definitely a cool concept that I would love to test play, thanks for making it, first glance it really looks like it replaces a lot of abilities so it was kind of daunting but after reading it, it seems viable.

I will play it this week and try to give you some feedback from a game.

I'm glad you like it and look forward to hearing how it goes. I must admit, I got worried that the archetype got a bit bloated, but I felt most of the replacements made sense.

One thing I would suggest is under Trump Play, I wouldn't give a shield bonus, maybe a deflection bonus or something as Shields don't help against touch attacks... like guns or another Cardslinger throwing at them. Shields, Armor and spells like Mage Armor and Shield do not protect against ranged touch attack from fire arms. Not sure if this was your point? But A cardslinger (gunslinger) without any sort of defenses against their own class Cardslinger (gunslinger) just strikes me as odd.

This is definitely a cool concept that I would love to test play, thanks for making it, first glance it really looks like it replaces a lot of abilities so it was kind of daunting but after reading it, it seems viable.

I will play it this week and try to give you some feedback from a game.

Ah coolness, I was always fascinated by this class arch.. but just reading it and seeing what you lost because of it.. I never went 1 or 2 levels into the witch class especially when using this.

But I will endeavor to test this out next week.

Thanks for the info and homebrew

Well, I did stat up numans from up above =p

Palmans can use the same racial stats as humans, androids/CASTs can use the same stats as the androids from the Inner Sea Bestiary... not sure about dewmans, but only because I haven't played PSO2.

yup you did, but the race would strike me as rather weak as far as racial points go.

Lowlight Vision and Knowledge giving only 2 racial points total I believe as opposed to Elves and humans at about 9 or 10.

This is... quite a bit late, actually. But still slightly relevant!

Just in case people want to play older/younger humans or numans, do this:

Humans in PSOfinder use the half-elf's aging track (considered an adult at 20, middle aged at 62, old age at 93, venerable at 125, can live for an additional 3d20 years after that) from the Core Rulebook. This is to signify advances in medical care from AW 2284 onward.

Numans in PSOfinder use the human's aging track (considered an adult at 15, middle aged at 35, old at 53, venerable at 70, can live for an additional 2d20 years after that) from the Core Rulebook.

Androids in PSOfinder use the elf's aging track, with one minor difference: Androids do not visibly age.

very thorough ideas, race ages and such, though any ideas on what to do with the races and make them distinctively unique as far as racial features and stats? Essentially I want Numans, Beasts and Androids to not just be Elves or variations there of.

Any Ideas?

Seems pretty easy to make a PSO campaign. Just refluff everything.

Humans are humans
Newman are elves
CASTs are androids
Refluff Psionics as techniques

Don't need to make it complicated. Just...don't have firearms target touch AC.

Well I also want to have PSO enter Pathfinder... so having it just be a direct reflection of existing characters is kind of not what I was going for.

Hmm. I'm not 100% sure that'll work- PSO's stats might not correspond 1:1 to PRPG's six stats.

lol no not a 1:1 ratio

like if the newman/ neuman had a average Physical stat of say 80 starting off and the Palman had a 100...

I would say divined by 10 essentially. i.e.

Neuman/ Newman would thus have as an average of 8 str and 8 con

while the Palman would have as an avererage of 10 str and 10 con

Essentially I am looking to find a number where Palman being the base would have a 10.

Since I've got this open, I might as well add...

Palmans
Ever since the destruction of the Profound Darkness over eight centuries ago, Palmans have, more than ever, become the dominant life form in the Algo Star System. Since then, old technologies have been rediscovered, new technologies have been created, and space travel, once banned under the rule of Mother Brain, has been reintroduced. But will this lead to Algo's second golden age... or its second dark age?

Palmans follow the same rules as human characters do in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook.

(no flavor text for androids, but they have the same stats as they do in the Inner Sea Bestiary.)

coolness!

Part of me is thinking of opening up PSO on the dreamcast and just comparing the stats of the different races and seeing about also breaking it down by a common number and trying to come up with stats in that manner to?

You know, I tried working on a Phantasy Star roleplaying game based on Saga Edition a couple years ago. That might be up your alley, actually. (It was based on the Classic Series instead of the Online Series, but the same stuff shows up in both series; besides, I'm of the opinion that PSOnline takes place 800 years after PSIV anyway.)

Anyway, this is what I (and a couple other people on the Phantasy Star Cave message board, and the Fringes of Algo message board) came up with for numans:

Numans
Sometimes called beastmen, sometimes called Homo novus, numans have an unusual heritage that traces back to the Great Collapse. Though the original prototypes suffered from accelerated aging and premature death, advances in genetic engineering in AW 2284 and AW 2750 have stabilized the numan genome, allowing them to live almost as long as a Palman.

Numans have the following species traits:

• +2 Dexterity and Intelligence, -2 Wisdom. Numans are agile and, due to their history as genetically modified humanoids, excel at certain mental attributes. However, this genetic modification typically resulted in a sheltered existence.
  
• Medium Size: As Medium creatures, numans have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
  
• Speed: Numan base land speed is 30' (6 squares).
  
• Low-Light Vision: Numans can see twice as far as Palmans in low light.
  
• Knowledge Base: Numans have a +1 species bonus to two Knowledge skills of their choice. They may reroll any Knowledge checks involving those two Knowledge skills. The new result is final, even if it's worse.
  
• Automatic Languages: Numans can speak English.

ahhh cool

Also any ideas on a more active dodging mechanic? Similar to what I have just posted?

Howdy!

Now I know there are probably other systems that would probably make a better translation to PSO than Pathfinder... but what im asking is how and what I can do to create PSO experience in Pathfinder.

Essentially what I want to do is keep the same system... except implement a simple dodge/ block system in addition to the normal attack system.

What I have come up with thus far is simple its just BAB + Base Ref Save + (either str or dex mod) + 1d20... and if the total of this beats the attack you dodge/ block it, now this takes the place of your attack of opportunity that turn.

As for the weapons, we are just having all the Photon weapons count as force for base damage, and you can "enchant" them add an elemental effect.

We are making a lot of use from the Numeria Technology Guide for armor and other things.

Any ideas for PSO androids? Neumans? Beasts?

Squirrel_Dude wrote:

Yup Yup Yup.

And we haven't even mentioned the problem of solo monster encounters vs an almost competent party.

I've been toying with the idea of giving solo "bosses," the ones who are supposed to be unique creatures and/or badasses, the ability to act multiple times in the initiative order on top of buffed HP. Never actually tried it though.

That actually sounds pretty interesting... It also reminds me of some of the things we use to do in AD&D 2nd Edition.

But ever since 3rd Edition Casters have had an edge, in 2nd edition spells took multiple turns to cast so while the fighter fought for say 3 turns attacking and all that the caster would stand there hoping his target didn't get wise and move out of the Area of his spell.

Perhaps a Fix for leveling the playing field would either be.

1. The spell level is equal to how many turns it takes a caster to cast that spell during which time he can perform no other actions than to cast. Essentially turning him into an Artillery Piece. Martials could close and get multiple opportunity to trip, stun or knock over the caster who is unprotected.

2. As stated before, give Martials the ability to full attack as a standard action. In addition give them the ability to deflect spells, i.e. BAB + Ref Save Base + Dex mod or Str mod +d20 roll VS casters Level + Spell level + Casters Primary stat Modifier. The Ability to deflect or nullify spells like Magic Missile that traditionally gave no saves or anything would go a long way to increasing the survivability of a martial.

Within regards to achieving skill bonuses as opposed to a spell granting an effect. I.e. Caster Flies over the wall while the Martial is stuck climbing... hrmm maybe count all jumps of the martial as having a running start? A base Bonus of +5 or +10 or perhaps some sort of skill Synergy like in 3.5?

Just some ideas as I have also seen the lack of adaptability in martials, that seem to be little more than hit things and hopefully take a hit. When dealing with the fantastic of magic, martials really need something equally fantastic that is thrown into the category of wuxia/ weeabo land simply because the martials have to play by realism, while casters don't.

but I am all for finding ways to give martials back some ability to solve problems and survivability outside of magical gear and massive hit points.

@ Alex Trebek's Stunt Double

well im out

Everyone and their dog has tried to give you advice and opinions but your sticking with your guns. Good for you, but if you are already dead set on your choice why ask here unless you are wanting other people to simply agree and pat you on the back?

later

doc the grey wrote:

I'm sure someone brought this up but to reiterate the issue with removing shots and reliability from firearms is what do they have left? Nothing really.

In pathfinder reliability, volley, and power are kind of the metrics by which you measure whether or not a ranged weapon is worth it and these only get worse as you level up and increase your ways of shrugging damage. In games like Call of Cthulhu ancient firearms that fire once a minute and do 1d10 work fine because you've maybe got 18 health max if you are an Adonis of personal health and take weeks to recover from. In pathfinder 4d6+2 (assuming base damage and a +2 for enhancements) is less than the Fireball the sorc can throw about every round if they want or what a Young White dragon can do with just his breath weapon every 1d4 rounds. Neither of those are uncommon, hell the dragon is just 1 over APL for the earliest someone could feasibly afford a +2 weapon following wbl.

In other words if you are going to be taking away attacks per round you need to up the damage to compensate A LOT. If I'm losing a round of attacks and I'm getting two attacks a round and I cannot shorten that the damage needs to be like 4 hits. Hell, I'd actually say closer to maybe 6 since if I miss it's like I've missed all of my attacks for 2 solid rounds. These numbers scale up the more time you're planning to take away from them. Otherwise people just won't use it.

This is why things like the crank crossbow out of RTT or the caltrop spear from Giant Hunters never get used. They are weapons designed to be too expensive both in feats and cash while also being unreliable to ever make you want to invest in them as a character.

Think about these play styles: Switch hitting, skirmishing, and sniping.

Most ranged weapons do a small amount of damage per shot, but make up with it via a large number of shots. Take a longbow for example. At level 10, I would expect to be doing around 1d8 + 4(strength) + 3(enhancement) + 4(class features) =...

Well I will tell you what I wanted as a designated marksman, the ability to engage and quickly re-engage a new target. Which is why we are using the SAS semi-automatic sniper system and not really the old bolt action rifles. If you going to simply "assassinate" then ok.. one good shot.. but a party of characters... you essentially want to engage your next target.

Wearing holsters in the old west is almost a movie/TV thing. Most gunfighers in the old west wore tied sashes with pistols thrust into them as commercial holsters were pretty much unavailable until about 1890. Wild Bill Hickock wore a tied sash, for example. The military did have holsters, even during the civil war, however, they were cumbersome to use - impossible to quick draw from (but they did exist). So the idea of 17th and 18th century pistols having holsters, in truth, was non-existent. Pistols were shoved into belts, sashes, and saddlebags during those centuries.

You are correct in stating that black powder weapons were packed very tight, otherwise your round wouldn't travel far, and the likelihood of ball and shot falling out of your weapon only happened if you didn't pack your round properly (and if you didn't pack it properly, even if it didn't fall out, it was a wasteful shot with little effect).

Well when casting our own ball and shot... the sizes varied and they didn't always end up circular even when poured into the mold.

You could pack them tight as you always wanted to do. But if traveling with a loaded weapon muzzle was up. If unloaded, it was muzzle down.

Lead balls were soft and would change their shape to accommodate the barrel and create for a more snug fit but they still wore down and could fall or roll out.

Yup, if not packed well too much energy was lost inside the barrel, gun powder was packed tightly to maximize its blast even in Sticks of Dynamite.

Angry Ghost: "calling them sidearms came out more during what you would consider the wildwest."

I don't know where you are getting that.

"But they did have holsters and other means for carrying pistols.. largely because people are lazy and would rather sling a weapon than carry it at the read."

It's not just that, they need their arms for other things like climbing, rowing, carrying or shoving things. I don't know why you raised these problems of supposed limitations on firearms.

"But the problem with muzzle loaders is that you tilt it upside down and your ball and shot poured out unless you put a stopper in. But stoppers weren't kept in for long as they were a cloth or paper and If it got wet it just clogged."

Well then put some sort of stopper in... we've already covered this.

Certainly in the short term it's not a problem, the shot is packed in tight. If it was so easy for it to just drop out of the barrel then it would be easy to just drop it INTO the barrel but that isn't the case, you have to force it down with a ram-rod.

"but when you implement a part of realism in with large amounts of fantasy it feels pathetic and is often ignored for something else."

I disagree.

I see no reason why it has to be all or nothing by your narrow interpretation. Just because there is magic doesn't mean everything else has to be utterly detached from reality. Magic in Pathfinder is contained and limited, it doesn't mean that any attempt at common sense and basic reasoning is impossible.

And that is as you stated to me, your opinion.

My experience comes from 14 years of military service (still serving) and training. Also being stationed at places like West Point where all the preach is Military History and Doctrine. Also my experiences in my youth with my friends and his father doing black powder shooting. Then being stationed in Germany and taking up Archery at a club as well as the tours up to and through the castles where the guides explained weapons and sometimes we saw re-enactments in Germany and at Gettysburg. Also my buddy that I play with Pathfinder here does fencing.

So its not like im pulling this stuff out my @$$.

Also with 20+ years of GMing for everything D&D ( also AD&D), Shadowrun, Earthdawn and everything inbetween. Just off my evaluation and experience I am simply trying to note problems you may run across mostly because I have encountered the problems in the past. You asked I provided answers. I am giving a lot of suggestions on fixes and reasons for the fixes. Its your world, so you can do what you want. I gave you suggestions based on what I confirmed on questions.

@Alex

well calling them sidearms came out more during what you would consider the wildwest. When they had the plethora hip holster, colt even going so far as to sell them with the gun as a marketing gimick.

But they did have holsters and other means for carrying pistols.. largely because people are lazy and would rather sling a weapon than carry it at the read.

But the problem with muzzle loaders is that you tilt it upside down and your ball and shot poured out unless you put a stopper in. But stoppers weren't kept in for long as they were a cloth or paper and If it got wet it just clogged.

Look at examples in the Revolutionary War. They didn't march about with loaded weapons mostly because wet powder is little different than wet sand. Wet Sand in the breach equals non operational firearm. Especially if the wet sand is your propellant.

And the rifleman were giving marching orders and loaded and readied rifles by command. So they didn't travel with loaded weapons, but that isn't constant. Some frontiersman would have loaded weapons always like the other more clandestine units in the American Revolution. Now the PC's could easily follow this example instead of rank and file training for traditional armies.

The take home is thus, Golarion is a fantasy world, with fantasy weapons based on real weapons. The training and doctrine would be a lot different and you can impose those ideas as the GM. Its your world, if you choose to implement some realism and not all that is your choice. If you implement full realism then essentially of Hit points damage should be resolved against their constitution score... so 1 hit kills can be very common. If you do all fantasy.. do all fantasy.. but when you implement a part of realism in with large amounts of fantasy it feels pathetic and is often ignored for something else.

hrmm... the way we usually tried to balance classes is we had a AAR after each session. (After Action Review)

we discuss what went good, with players and the GM... what went bad and what we can do better.

So if a character seems OP and is leaving the others behind, we review why, and brainstorm. If a character is so powerful and built in a fashion that the rest of the party is just along for the ride, we talk with the player and see what we can do to even the playing field. Usually bringing everyone up to that characters level isnt the option as that character is usually optimized and a party of optimized means that even at 4th level... they are taking down CR 8 and 9... so alot of times we ask them to change some things on their character alittle or build a new one and explain why.

It usually works for us as a group, we are all pretty close friends and the newer players we are getting are starting to get the hang of it as we are working together to have fun, not leave people out and not make it a DPS Olympic competition amongst us.

If a player is breaking your game, talk to them with the rest of the players present and explain your problem and ask them if they have any solutions?

Jericho Graves wrote:

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:

" it isnt readied fast enough for someone to use it when they want/ need to because of the extended reload times"

Why would you carry it around unloaded?

I honestly find your changes to firearms interesting. But the one thing I HAVE to disagree with, is your disregard for how volatile and unstable early powder was. To walk around with a loaded gun was the equivalent of having a miniature explosive on your hip or back. A single spark from a torch in a dungeon (which pathfinder should have a few of if you're using the game alot) could end up blowing off your leg.

So I ask you, why would I carry around a loaded firearm packed with volatile, explosive powder? At the very least it could go off planting the bullet in my own flesh, at the most the gun itself backfires.

Not to mention that if it's an outdoors adventure and I need to cross a creek or small river with no bridge or raft, my powder is now ruined if I didn't think to unload the firearm.

*Edit*

For the river example, so many times has my DM have us roll life or death skill checks to cross a raging river to escape some creature that could not stand water, only to have brigands and bandits of our own level in the trees on the other side that we failed to notice. (a -5 perception check for almost drowning is pretty reasonable to our group, especially if you keep going up and under repeatedly)

You've got a very good point but the problem is how it actually plays out in game.

The player will inevitably say "yeah, of course I have it loaded" when I raise the spectre of accidental discharges they give me an incredulous look... and rightly so, it's now left to my whim whether he either blows his leg off or we have the ridiculous circumstance that they have to spend the first round of combat fooling around loading a gun. There is no gameplay modelling for stray sparks or static discharges, there is no way to tell the difference between me being a dutiful game...

well sorry to say Alex... I would have to side with Jericho on this one... because once you pack shot, wad, cap and powder and push the ball in... if you leave it like that for a long period of time, the cold chamber of the weapon starts to accumulate water, based on pure temperature difference and condensation.. and now the contents inside the weapon get wet... and when you travel with it... do you travel with the barrel up and slung to your side? Essentially having a loaded weapon pointed at you or your friends... we call that Flagging in the Army (a big no no... that someone would be within their rights to punch you in the face). Or do you have the weapon pointed down at the earth... where you have a chance of the contents of your weapon falling out. With "alchemical" cartridges we are able to have soldiers leave their rounds in the weapon as the cartridges are sealed fairly well and the rounds... USUALLY don't fall out... but that has happened...but leaving rounds in for a long time is bad for the spring in modern weapons and magazines.

When explorers traveled and if they carried a pistol... they carried it in their hand ready (because as you said they are exploring unknown territory, so the weapon was in their hand at the ready and not holstered, just like in the modern army, we travel with loaded weapons but at the low ready) because where the hammer struck or whatever you have initiating an early firearm there was a gap there and powder could leak out and water got in. One of the Big things Baron Von Steuben taught the continental Army to fight the British.

Pirates at sea would start loading their weapons as they came upon a targeted ship, they wouldn't just leave the weapons loaded through out the voyage.

One thing that they started was putting a slight plug on the end of the barrel to help keep out water, the bullet would blow through or push it out without too much or any problem but it still would let moisture in eventually.

@Oliver McShade.

Just... why?

You're going to be rolling d20's all day, even putting Wizard with high level summons to shame. And that's a system which is obviously going to be broken, I can tell, things like treat one attack as two attacks. Wait does that mean you can move and shoot twice? Shoot twice in surprise round?

Getting 6 shots in 6 seconds...

And although each shot is apparently enough to scythe through armour so easily it's resolved as touch the damage per hit is as weak as a Light Crossbow sized for a cat (tiny creature).

Angry Ghost said: "basically the culminating point is that if someone had a firearm they would probably think of using it as a club as opposed to shooting it"

More like they have one shot between lengthy reload, it's going to be a big deal for them to use their shot, for example they wouldn't use it in a skirmish with many fleeting enemies in close quarters. But if you hear familiar incantations from a mysterious hooded figure in the backfield, this is where GM fluff is important, the GM established certain familiar phrase is used to summon a horrific monster, you fear it being uttered again. Rush over to a good position, draw your musket and take a shot.

Yes they could also move and just draw a thrown weapon, and thrown weapons have their place, they are really great for how each round you can move and shoot, move and shoot, over and over, each time swapping back to a two handed grip of your melee weapon. But if that caster is summoning a beast you need to bet all you've got on one good hit. You don't really want to have blown you one shot on the first goblin you see, unless you're trying to make a point.

Yeah, I'd like to have a bayonet that can be on muskets without blocking the barrel. It'd mainly be there to, again, serve the general purpose nature of a firearm, you still threaten the squares around you which is important, even if you don't feel particularly confident using it to attack with, as for:
-Someone trying to run right past you, like to go...

Well, they are more for fluff then, like "ohh this would be a cool time to use" them as opposed to using them all the time.

Like a pirate movie, where they shoot once or twice then its swords all the way.

If you homebrewed this much of the firearm... just have a bayonet that doesn't get stuck in the barrel... they used that as a balancing factor... so guns are a lot weaker now in your game so get rid of it.

Within regards to two attacking twice with one attack, I would only allow that on the very first attack... and multi attack actually only works with arrows... as it states I believe you notch two arrows and fire them both at once. Rapid Shot lets you fire twice, but there is the matter of reloading... if you have a single shot pistol like a harpersferry... they are still stuck reloading and cant get the rapid shot... now even if they have abilities, deeds and feats to bring it down to a free action for reloading.
What it says in the Core Rule Book... the GM decides how many free actions a player can get... so even if its a free action to reload a bullet in a firearm... limit how many they can get.. perhaps they are limited to their dex modifier?

But on a comical note... all I can think of is the old black and white superman TV show... where the bad guys shoot superman... and the bullets bounce off of him.... so then they throw their guns at him after they are out of ammo....If you cant kill.... maybe you can give him a really bad bruise?

I ban Gunslingers, and have so far banned Ninjas and Samurai, simply because there's so far been no setting in my homebrew for them to hail from. I'm toying with an idea of letting them be made available, though, as the players in my game are finally exploring beyond their comfort zone and I may let them come from a Hobgoblin culture. (I run a houseruled version of Hobgoblins that differs a bit from the PF version).

You could just call them something else instead of Ninja or Samurai?

I banned systems, but if you can play a class without that system, you can use the class. Specifically, I banned arcane and divine magic. Most arcane and divine casters can use sphere casting from Spheres of Power though, so they remain playable.

Hmm that sounds interesting actually...

I actually found myself more inclined to not allow spells or limit spells.

Classes are easy most of the time to accommodate for, its when they start multi classing and multi-archetyping... like the character has 2 classes and 3 or 4 archetypes...

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:

" it isnt readied fast enough for someone to use it when they want/ need to because of the extended reload times"

Why would you carry it around unloaded?

I honestly find your changes to firearms interesting. But the one thing I HAVE to disagree with, is your disregard for how volatile and unstable early powder was. To walk around with a loaded gun was the equivalent of having a miniature explosive on your hip or back. A single spark from a torch in a dungeon (which pathfinder should have a few of if you're using the game alot) could end up blowing off your leg.

So I ask you, why would I carry around a loaded firearm packed with volatile, explosive powder? At the very least it could go off planting the bullet in my own flesh, at the most the gun itself backfires.

Not to mention that if it's an outdoors adventure and I need to cross a creek or small river with no bridge or raft, my powder is now ruined if I didn't think to unload the firearm.

Pretty much... if you carried a loaded gun around and it got water in it...then the wadding and the powder were ruined and the weapon was really hard to clean out especially with any amount of mud.

the old saying when crossing the river "Keep your feet wet and your powder dry"

meaning keep your feet under you and walking as opposed to failing and now your weapon isn't useable... some riflemen actually carried a spare rifle to.

@ Oliver McShade

he doesn't want Firearms to be Primary means of doing damage or a primary weapon that a class can focus on. Your rules are very thought out and I am sure they are working for your group, but that again makes firearms a primary weapon instead of a sword and shield. He doesn't really want people to use firearms or firearms to be really effective, basically the culminating point is that if someone had a firearm they would probably think of using it as a club as opposed to shooting it, they would only shoot it if the enemy was at such range that they couldn't club someone with it.

More of what he wants is kind of like a disposable bomb but in gun form.

I.E.
the character in question fights with a sword, kills his enemy, draws a pistol and fires it at an enemy who is closing and then drops the pistol before closing in to engage in Melee again.

He doesn't want a character to use guns almost exclusively.

What he is wanting to steer away from is this: characters who can do amazing things with guns thus making them viable primary weapons as opposed to disposable toys essentially.

Its kind of like they are only viable as or on Attacks of Opportunity and that's it. Not every turn type of attacks.

He wants a game where swords and melee are the Primary source of damage with firearms coming in at something like eleventeenth.

@ Alex Trebek's Stunt Double

well in our games right now, we are running two. The Gunslinger is doing about half the damage as our two handed weapon wielding barbarian. We are level 7 almost 8.

So one person is arguing for the firearms...and one against it I take it.

Is this still about misfire?

@ Alex Trebek's Stunt Double

in going along with your proposal on firearms... the Ninja would be a highly magical and mythical character (atleast in that reference)... possibly of exceptionally high level who would be able to accomplish such a feat because of Mythic Levels I would say.

So the characters or NPC's in order to gain such an advantage in firearms would require Mythic Levels. Mythic Levels are essentially GM relegated and no level of EXP and such can allow access to them via feats or anything. So if at the time you deem it necessary you can allow them to get a Mythic Level. Ultimately controlling the flow of the advancement of firearms as a weapon.

but I would still feel inclined to steer clear of the fantastic with firearms, using such a strong basis in reality and how ineffective they are in your game. Perhaps he just had two rifles.. fired one and picked up another and creating a Myth about his skills with the rifle as a psychological weapon.

Though I am still inclined to side with the players as they didn't like firearms at all, and just not include them in your game. It would save you the time of trying to grind out rules for them.

Simply put, with your players, they don't like the taste of guns with their fantasy. So instead of searching for a way make it palatable I would just not serve it up at all. Pathfinder has played well without guns, so no harm is really done.

I'm playing a mid level multi class musketeer style swordsman. Is there any way to get an effect like Pummeling Style or Clustered Shots with a rapier? From my rapiers I'm doing 1d6 + 2d6 (vicious) +1d6 (path of war thrusting dragon stance) +13 (dex for str, specialized, gloves dueling, etc) I'm using improved TWF too. Vital strike isn't going to cut it, not worth giving up extra dual strike attacks.

I'm willing to dip a bit and burn a couple feats. Thanks in advance.

Well the issue you have is penetrating strike is only available to 12th level fighters.. unless your GM is willing to help you out here.

Definitely work with your players not against them.

Your all going to be kinda fumbling through some rules and discovering some things that will help and hurt monsters in your game and style of play.

The point is to have fun and not really try to one up each other.