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So this interesting tale starts with a close friend of mine inviting me to a new campaign her brother is running. I was weary, having heard he is very draconic about paladins and frequently even has clerics lose their powers(which I am fine with). Also I have heard that he despises martial classes and really prefers his martial to still use magic in some way, a problem for myself because I like playing a fighter. None the less she convinced me that I should give it a go and I thought I a character type in mind.
We started at 1st level and the GM only asked us for some vague information about our characters(he wanted a flexible backstory he could fit in his world, not a problem). So I told him that I was a lawful good dwarf that was devoted to Torag and sought purity through faith, as well as general stone loving Dwarven goodness. Maybe a bit cliche' but I see less and less of the old school Dwarfs, particularly in pathfinder, as I have seen more Dwarven bards, and even Dwarven sorcerers than fighters or barbarians.
I arrive at the game with the paladin code of Torag printed out with my character sheet as a personal guide on how to be more devout. The mod is fairly simple, but well ran and pretty interesting until there is a situation were slaves are involved. We find a group of escaping slaves attacking their slave master. I and my friend (playing a healer from old school 3.5) go and try to diffuse the situation. The slaver screams that he has a permit for the slaves and demands that we return them to the king so that they can be sacrificed. Seeing children in the lot I flat out say no, and ask the healer to tend to the slaves while I tend to the slaver(I took a trait that give me healing as a class skill).
The dm told me that as a lawful good character I should respect the authority of the slaver, to which I replied: I am the Good lawful good, not the Lawful lawful good. I don't recognize the legitimate authority of those that keep slaves. He seem aggravated but also a little elated. Soon the ranger(who said he was going to hide in the trees and observe) alerted us to approaching men bearing the same seal of the slaver. Causing the slaver to say something like "this is the end for all of you I will see that you sacrificed right with them". The ranger, being chaotic neutral(aka....evil) straight up kills the guy and drags him off hiding in the brush. I sigh, verbally reprimand him but don't do anything else as the healer starts to lead the slaves away.
I stay with the body, and kneel down in prayer waiting for the men to approach. When they do they see my character, praying with a holy symbol before the body and ask what had happen(politely I might add). I told them that I had been traveling alone when I came upon bandits loading slaves into a wagon and gutting the slaver. Unable to follow them immediately I decided to give the slaver his last rites. He looked shock, like I had just told him I ate five Aasimar babies alive and said roll bluff. I get a 16(I have 14 cha..yes as a dwarf, it is painful to waste a 16 in pb) and he says that they believe me. Thanking me and asking which way the bandits went, I point them to the wrong direction. Once again GM, shocked.
They load the mans body, try to give me some gold for some reason(I refuse it politely) and they storm off. The GM says that I begin to feel weak and empty, that I feel my gifts start to leave me. To which I ask...what gifts. He says, you have lied which is directly against the wishes of Torag. To which I reply by showing him the code in which it says I can mislead others for my people. I lied for the sake of my party and for good. He said be that as it may, I had lied wantonly with no remorse and that I had fallen. To which I say....what do you mean. I am not a Paladin. He did not believe me. And ask to see my sheet. To which I complied, and he saw that I made the crazy saves against his magical ray traps(start of the mod) not because of divine grace but because of Steel Soul, and that I had not let the ranger be blatantly evil because I am lawful good, not because I have a paladin code. I explained that I merely was faithful and had printed out the code for reference. He just sat there for a while and said "okay". Then we moved on.
Long story, not important but I was kinda laughing the whole time during the end and I thought it was interesting.
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Even if you were a paladin, you seem to be playing the code pretty well in the first place. Further, the code of Torag's paladins would only conflict if you had first given these guards your word, which you didn't. Protecting innocent slaves and your people easily rates over letting a probably evil ritual sacrifice happen.
Still hilarious that he tried to take your perceived Paladin powers away. Always fun to play a religious character without being a divine caster.
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Gotta love adversarial DMs getting a slap in the face like that
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"okay"
if only you had a camera I bet.
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*epic double reverse facepalm with a half twist*
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So this interesting tale starts with a close friend of mine inviting me to a new campaign her brother is running. I was weary, having heard he is very draconic about paladins and frequently even has clerics lose their powers(which I am fine with). Also I have heard that he despises martial classes and really prefers his martial to still use magic in some way, a problem for myself because I like playing a fighter. None the less she convinced me that I should give it a go and I thought I a character type in mind.
We started at 1st level and the GM only asked us for some vague information about our characters(he wanted a flexible backstory he could fit in his world, not a problem). So I told him that I was a lawful good dwarf that was devoted to Torag and sought purity through faith, as well as general stone loving Dwarven goodness. Maybe a bit cliche' but I see less and less of the old school Dwarfs, particularly in pathfinder, as I have seen more Dwarven bards, and even Dwarven sorcerers than fighters or barbarians.
I arrive at the game with the paladin code of Torag printed out with my character sheet as a personal guide on how to be more devout. The mod is fairly simple, but well ran and pretty interesting until there is a situation were slaves are involved. We find a group of escaping slaves attacking their slave master. I and my friend (playing a healer from old school 3.5) go and try to diffuse the situation. The slaver screams that he has a permit for the slaves and demands that we return them to the king so that they can be sacrificed. Seeing children in the lot I flat out say no, and ask the healer to tend to the slaves while I tend to the slaver(I took a trait that give me healing as a class skill).
The dm told me that as a lawful good character I should respect the authority of the slaver, to which I replied: I am the Good lawful good, not the Lawful lawful good. I don't recognize the legitimate authority of those that keep slaves. He seem aggravated but also a little elated. Soon the...
If only GMs had the right to audit characters before the game starts to know what it is the players are actually playing...
...OH WAIT...
In other words, his own silly fault.
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@ Darksol- You know, I have never sat down to gm without knowing exactly what my players would be using. Of course I am a push over...what you want to play an awaken house cat with the dire template...hmmm a dire housecat arcane sorcerer with a bounded collar...take wild spell 1st lv and you have a deal! Anywho, I find gms rarely look at our characters, asking only for race and alignment before we start. Most detailed thing that gets brought up constantly is "Do we have a healer?"
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Besides the falling part he Sound like a good GM:) and great story.
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I was actually expecting something much different when I first heard the thread title:
"You have successfully used skills other than Climb and Swim more than once, therefore you lose all your bonus combat feats, weapon training, and armor training."
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10/10, would read again. This story delivered all the way to the punchline.
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i honestly expected him to lose weapon or armor training or literally fall into a pit because he rolled a 10 but needed an 11 to cross the 10ft pit.
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or does he need a 15?
@ Darksol- You know, I have never sat down to gm without knowing exactly what my players would be using. Of course I am a push over...what you want to play an awaken house cat with the dire template...hmmm a dire housecat arcane sorcerer with a bounded collar...take wild spell 1st lv and you have a deal! Anywho, I find gms rarely look at our characters, asking only for race and alignment before we start. Most detailed thing that gets brought up constantly is "Do we have a healer?"
This would make sense if your games generally start at level 1, where there are only so any mechanics online or spells to mess up fights with.
But he expected you to have paladin saves...so this is at least level 2 or higher. If you are starting above level 1, you REALLY need to know what is happening. If this is above level 5, then that is somewhat insane to expect to balance a fight against an unknown force (you either get steamrolled or you steamroll them)
This would make sense if your games generally start at level 1, where there are only so any mechanics online or spells to mess up fights with.But he expected you to have paladin saves...so this is at least level 2 or higher. If you are starting above level 1, you REALLY need to know what is happening. If this is above level 5, then that is somewhat insane to expect to balance a fight against an unknown force (you either get steamrolled or you steamroll them)
While it is not my taste most GMs I play with are world crafters, by which I mean that they create a world and you better not mess it up. I won't complain, as despite people liking the games I run; I find no enjoyment running them,and thus have little room to talk. Although I will admit that sometimes when the GM expecting your party to have lots of magic and the table is 3 rogues, and a monk there is not a lot to do other than run away....a lot. ("I am sorry guys but my settings goblins and orcs are creatures of shadow can only be harmed by casting light on them first. I wanted cantrips to matter more......)
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My take - kudos to the DM.
He obviously got a lot wrong, but once it was pointed out he was wrong he just said "Oh. Okay." In my experience, very few people are able to do that with such aplomb. I was sure he was going to start inventing "fighter-falling" rules on the spot, having backed himself into a corner.
Good story.
EDIT: Kudos to you too. I enjoy running games with PCs like that in them.
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So this interesting tale starts with a close friend of mine inviting me to a new campaign her brother is running. I was weary, having heard he is very draconic about paladins
It's understandable that draconic GMs should hate paladins—that smite damage hurts.
While it is not my taste most GMs I play with are world crafters, by which I mean that they create a world and you better not mess it up. I won't complain, as despite people liking the games I run; I find no enjoyment running them,and thus have little room to talk. Although I will admit that sometimes when the GM expecting your party to have lots of magic and the table is 3 rogues, and a monk there is not a lot to do other than run away....a lot. ("I am sorry guys but my settings goblins and orcs are creatures of shadow can only be harmed by casting light on them first. I wanted cantrips to matter more......)
This would make sense if your games generally start at level 1, where there are only so any mechanics online or spells to mess up fights with.But he expected you to have paladin saves...so this is at least level 2 or higher. If you are starting above level 1, you REALLY need to know what is happening. If this is above level 5, then that is somewhat insane to expect to balance a fight against an unknown force (you either get steamrolled or you steamroll them)
In such a case, he had better make magic items slightly more available. In that case, a nice ioun torch would solve the problem (and the fact that it is just a burnt out ioun stone with a continual flame on it means it is minor enough that it can come up even in a relatively low magic campaign). That would even cut through a darkness spell, and I always think of it as a great thing to get for a martial, since it is so cheap and useful (no hands torch that deals with some magic- I'll take three as back ups and look into finding a wizard with the heighten spell to deal with deeper darkness)
Overall, I can be fine with houserules like that... as long as the GM makes sure that the party has some way to deal with it. Either make sure the party has the right abilities, or make sure they can get items that deal with this problem (since hey- a prevalent creature like orcs can't be dealt with using normal means- better crank out ioun torches so that our guards can deal with it. It us the same logic that makes cold iron and silver fairly available).
i honestly expected him to lose weapon or armor training or literally fall into a pit because he rolled a 10 but needed an 11 to cross the 10ft pit.
Is there a -4 on that? Cause that would be a nasty penalty. :P
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How does the GM not know what class you're playing?
Seriously...I can understand not doing like a detailed audit...but not knowing the class? That seems rediculous.
How does the GM not know what class you're playing?Seriously...I can understand not doing like a detailed audit...but not knowing the class? That seems rediculous.
Admittedly, he did have a lot of the trappings of a paladin.
But that is just the fact that a lot of players do not go religious unless they are a religion based class. It shouldn't have confused him, but this is just how things happen.
I've always liked the idea of religious characters that aren't fueled by the divinity they worship. Sounds like everyone had fun.
I've always liked the idea of religious characters that aren't fueled by the divinity they worship. Sounds like everyone had fun.
Generally what happens for me when i'm thinking of making a character that worships some god, i pick out a divine caster class just because it fits.
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Generally that's what I see, Bandw2.
It's more rare for people to make characters with faith that doesn't reward them mechanically.
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What actually makes me the saddest about this is how hostile this GM is towards Pallys. I feel like it would be damn near impossible to play a Paladin in that GM's game without falling... or dying.
Generally that's what I see, Bandw2.
It's more rare for people to make characters with faith that doesn't reward them mechanically.
it's not really about the reward so much as, "what class would the guy be?". it just makes the most sense usually that he would be some divine caster(i'm counting a paladin here as well) and not some "mere" fighter.
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Perhaps it makes the most sense to you, though you could elaborate why (since my general experience doesn't apply to your perspective).
I'd find it pretty compelling to be religious myself in a world of literal miracles, even if I never got the power to personally perform them.
Perhaps it makes the most sense to you, though you could elaborate why (since my general experience doesn't apply to your perspective).
I'd find it pretty compelling to be religious myself in a world of literal miracles, even if I never got the power to personally perform them.
because it makes more "sense" or is a more intuitive choice. that's the beginning and end of it.
That doesn't really help me understand you but that's okay, it's not that important.
That doesn't really help me understand you but that's okay, it's not that important.
it's basically, a religious guy is religious, so he should be mechanically religious and the religious part shouldn't be ignored except when characters are talking to each other or i am choosing when to do things.
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I'm currently playing a Swashbuckler who identifies herself as a "Pirate" that worships Cayden Cailean and Besmara (thematically appropriate)-I feel that a world that has functioning magic should have nearly EVERYONE worship on a regular basis.
The character will NEVER be a Cleric (WIS 7) but does have a holy symbol, and follows many strictures/habits of the faith.
Once in a blue moon, as a GM I would reward this kind of RP dedication by having the god grant a minor boon (randomly heal in combat, vision during a dream etc).
It helps with immersion in the game I think. With my Swashbuckler, I'm having the character trying to convince the party that Cayden is just the neatest of the gods, and deserves to be worshiped.
If the GM told me I had 'fallen' I would probably slap him and walk out. Or tell him that my character found her own way to pray, and no one could say otherwise...
OP, your GM sounds like a bag of dicks.
Sounds like it is about the mechanical reward then, which is okay and makes sense.
I just think it's a pretty cool subversion of expectations when a non-divine character is devout, as in OP's story.
Sounds like it is about the mechanical reward then, which is okay and makes sense.
I just think it's a pretty cool subversion of expectations when a non-divine character is devout, as in OP's story.
If that is in regards to my post, not really... I would just object to a GM that adversarial... Sounds like the original GM was going out of his way to create a situation to 'guarantee' falling, rather than just telling people they shouldn't bother playing divine casters.
I would get upset, cause it's mean to do that kind of stuff.
It is pretty cool when non-casters have faith in game, there are a LOT of very interesting gods in the game. I especially like Besmara, I mean, a goddess of PIRATES?!? YES PLEASE!!!
Sounds like it is about the mechanical reward then, which is okay and makes sense.
I just think it's a pretty cool subversion of expectations when a non-divine character is devout, as in OP's story.
it's more like if he's making a point about being religious, he needs to "always" be religious.
It was in regard to the conversation I was having with Bandw2.
I have no love for "Gotcha!" style DMing, though it sounds like OP's DM took it the situation with a grace I wouldn't have expected.
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I'm currently playing a Swashbuckler who identifies herself as a "Pirate" that worships Cayden Cailean and Besmara (thematically appropriate)-I feel that a world that has functioning magic should have nearly EVERYONE worship on a regular basis.Eh. Debatable. In a world with actual divine presence, I can see a lot of people developing a "well what have the gods done for me?" attitude.
I have no doubt there would be non-worshipers... but imagine playing an atheist? THAT would be hilarious.
Cleric: "How can you not believe in the Gods? Were you not healed of your wounds in this very church?
Atheist: "Meh, I've seen bards heal people, I'm not gonna believe in Gods until I meet one."
I dunno, I would imagine like a 80-90% 'religious' content of a population, at least... I mean, if for no other reason then to cover their bets.
Actually, my favorite deity in the setting is the perfect example: Besmara. Sailors often toss coins into the water to appease her before setting sail. It isn't worship based on love, it's worship based on fear... :D
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I'm currently playing a Swashbuckler who identifies herself as a "Pirate" that worships Cayden Cailean and Besmara (thematically appropriate)-I feel that a world that has functioning magic should have nearly EVERYONE worship on a regular basis.Eh. Debatable. In a world with actual divine presence, I can see a lot of people developing a "well what have the gods done for me?" attitude.
If you are a high level character then going Athar is really the only sensible choice.
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I'm currently playing a Swashbuckler who identifies herself as a "Pirate" that worships Cayden Cailean and Besmara (thematically appropriate)-I feel that a world that has functioning magic should have nearly EVERYONE worship on a regular basis.Eh. Debatable. In a world with actual divine presence, I can see a lot of people developing a "well what have the gods done for me?" attitude.
Contain Rovagug.
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If you are a high level character then going Athar is really the only sensible choice.I'm currently playing a Swashbuckler who identifies herself as a "Pirate" that worships Cayden Cailean and Besmara (thematically appropriate)-I feel that a world that has functioning magic should have nearly EVERYONE worship on a regular basis.Eh. Debatable. In a world with actual divine presence, I can see a lot of people developing a "well what have the gods done for me?" attitude.
Considering my character will likely never have anything more powerful than her class abilities (Just Swashbuckler), I'm gonna have her hedge her bets and show respect to the beings more powerful than her (Besmara). Her other deity of choice is a drunkard who became a god, he just DESERVES respect. :D
Neat link btw, thanks!
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Contain Rovagug.I'm currently playing a Swashbuckler who identifies herself as a "Pirate" that worships Cayden Cailean and Besmara (thematically appropriate)-I feel that a world that has functioning magic should have nearly EVERYONE worship on a regular basis.Eh. Debatable. In a world with actual divine presence, I can see a lot of people developing a "well what have the gods done for me?" attitude.
what's that? some kind of rash?
I might be biased because nearly every game I have been involved with has gone to epic/mythic levels and we usually wind up meeting at least one deity...
If I lived in Golarion, I would find it VERY odd if someone didn't at least pay lip service to the popular religion in the area.
There are varying degrees of faith, even in our modern world there are people who truly believe in stuff enough to go to war over it...
So in a world where magic is real, and you can obtain it by worshiping a deity, I would think more people would be believers...
I recall in some previous version of D+D (I think) you could be a cleric of no god, but only gain up to level 2 spells because you didn't have a direct link to divine power? Anyone able to clarify what I am thinking there?
Later, the idea of worshiping concepts was introduced, which in my opinion takes something away from the game... I like having religious conflict in game (not IRL though, conflict is bad).
I think it's said somewhere that "Atheist" in Golorion acknowledge Deity people exist, just decide that they aren't actually gods or something along that line.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Generally all characters I create are religious in some sense - look at how prevalent it is in the real world. You can be a devout person without being part of the clergy. For some characters it doesn't matter, or barely does, and for some it's a big part of their life, even without being divine casters. But religion is always a question I consider when writing up any character.
And I have played an atheist - sure, clerics can use magic. So can a whole bunch of other people. Just because those guys claim their magic comes from some sort of "god" doesn't mean that's true. Heck Razmir is a good argument for how someone can rationally think this way - if a sorcerer can pull off a scam that thorough, what does it say about other so-called deities?
I'm currently playing a Swashbuckler who identifies herself as a "Pirate" that worships Cayden Cailean and Besmara (thematically appropriate)-I feel that a world that has functioning magic should have nearly EVERYONE worship on a regular basis.Eh. Debatable. In a world with actual divine presence, I can see a lot of people developing a "well what have the gods done for me?" attitude.I have no doubt there would be non-worshipers... but imagine playing an atheist? THAT would be hilarious.
Cleric: "How can you not believe in the Gods? Were you not healed of your wounds in this very church?
Atheist: "Meh, I've seen bards heal people, I'm not gonna believe in Gods until I meet one."
I dunno, I would imagine like a 80-90% 'religious' content of a population, at least... I mean, if for no other reason then to cover their bets.
Aethist is downright easy. You acknowledge that there are creatures worshipped as gods. You just don't believe they have any inherent divinity to them. Which is really easy when you look at the likes of Cayden Cailean, and to a lesser extent Asmodeus.
Hedging their bets is another reason to stay, if not nonreligious, relatively neutral on deities. Get in too good with Iomedae, and when you suddenly keel over and the only nearby Cleric is one of Calistra's, she might not be so eager to bring you back. Admittedly, that's not so much a problem for the common folk, who aren't likely to ever get targeted by a Raise Dead. But the common folk also have no inherent reason to worship anyone, insofar as hedging their bets go. We know worship doesn't necessarily tie to where you go when you die, and barring the high-level magic there's no real reason for the deity to care who his Cleric is feeding.
Which isn't to say that people wouldn't be religious anyway, since that's generally not a logic-based thing, but from a logical angle it makes more sense for most people to stay fairly neutral and...
Here is an important question.
What exactly does divine mean? What is the distinguishing factor between a divine being and a non-divine being.
Here is another question. Is someone in Golarion who doesn't know the answer to the above question and thus does not know if the gods are really gods an athiest or just a non-worshiper?