This looks good. Thanks for sharing.
And a little note the gnome entry says they get a penalty to con, where it should have said bonus.
I might mention- switching out the half elves' skill focus for the dual minded trait can be rather nice. A +2 to your weak save, and it stacks with the +2 against enchantments. So overall, along with iron will, it makes your will save into 'not much of a problem'.
Heck, if you play your low level options right, you might make the caster cleric jealous early on.
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I might mention- switching out the half elves' skill focus for the dual minded trait can be rather nice. A +2 to your weak save, and it stacks with the +2 against enchantments. So overall, along with iron will, it makes your will save into 'not much of a problem'.
Heck, if you play your low level options right, you might make the caster cleric jealous early on.
Updated and credit given, thanks!
Dwarves also have a similar advantage since they get +2 against spells/SLAs (and poisons), and a racial feat to increase that to +4.
But for a brawler (who only really needs to worry about will, since it has good fort and reflex), half elves can be more reliable since that +2 works on any kind of will save, even against supernatural abilities.
It is the kind of difference you notice when you are facing off against a vampire using the charm super natural ability- Half elves get the +2 generic will save boost as well as the +2 against enchantment 'spells and effects', while the dwarves get zip.
Dwarves give a better general bonus, but the half elves are more conservative and lack the highly exploitable flaw. Plus, they do not need to spend a valuable feat (which could be used for common prerequisites to ease martial versatility) to get the full effect of their save buff. So half elves are easier just to plug in as a generic 'good' race for most martial classes with weak will saves.
If we are at save boostere half orcs with Sacred tatto and fates favored trait get +2 on all 3 saves.
Also the enforcer feat is good in you figth unarmed and have Lots of attacks. You will get to debuff Lots of bad guys and every crit will make the bad guy run away. It will requiers you to spend a feat on intimidate and pehaps also one on intimidating prowes or skill focus but that will also give you a social role, in not a sympatic one.
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Half-Orcs I believe are Blue. Ferocity is crap...always trade it with Sacred tattoo. And if you really want the Boost the Fate's Favored. Have +2 luck to all 3 saves is better than taking 3 feats. This more than makes up for a Humans free feat because 1 feat can not equal to +2 to all saves in PFS. Darkvision is also a Major advantage in PFS as levels 1-5 Darkness is a popular tactic in Scenarios and Modules.
Horn of the Criosphinx SHould be added to the list of Feats for Unarmed STR damage dealer.
Pummeling Style is Pure Blue. Not only does it help get through DR better, it also Crits ALL your attacks if you confirm 1 critical threat, and Leads into Pummeling Bully for Trip Builds which allows for a free trip attempt letting more damage go through instead of using Trip in place of an attack and missing out on the damage from that replaced attack.
Vicious Stomp Should be mentioned for Trip specialists. Also in PFS trip is not terrible as not much Flies or teleports. This leaves you with Multi-legged or no legged creatures. Trip should be a Green Maneuver as like you said can be done in place of any attack including AoO. And with Greater trip and Vicious Stomp your looking at 2 attacks per 1 AoO if you go for the trip during the AoO. Also a good way to stop the enemy dead in his tracks.
Dragon Style should be covered as it is BETTER than Power attack for Unarmed STR builds...but you may want all 4 damage feats of Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity, Horn of Crio, and Power attack. But since you do not lose accuracy when attacking I always put it before power attack.
Worthy to consider is a 2 level dip into Master of Many styles at level 3 and 4. This can help you use 2 styles at once, Gain more feats, Gain stunning fist, Gain better saves (regardless if using Unchained or Original Monk), You do not lose any unarmed damage either. Monk of the Iron Mountain can also be taken WITH MoMS and you can choose to take toughness versus Evasion...which is basically a play style choice because both have their merits. (I personally prefer toughness)
Here is a Sample Build of a Human Trip specialist Brawler who focuses on 3 things Unarmed damage, Tripping for control, and Stunning Fist/Knockout Blow
Brawler 2/ Master of many style monk 2/ Brawler Finish
Human 20 point buy: Str: 18, Dex: 14, Con: 14, Int: 10, Wis: 12, Cha: 8
Traits: Quain Martial Artist (+1 to Unarmed damage), Reactionary or +1 will save
Feats:
1:Combat expertise
H:Improved Trip
2:Combat reflexes
(Master of many styles Levels)
3:Dragon Style
3:Pummeling Style
4:Pummeling Charge
(back to brawler)
5:Vicious Stomp
7:Greater Trip
7:Dragon Ferocity
9:Pummeling Bully (because I'm sick of wasting MF on this feat)
10:Iron Will
11:Improved Critical (if even 1 of your pummeling strikes crit they ALL crit)
Good Luck with this guide though.
A lot
Well, pummeling style probably comes off as green/blue because it costs feats, which a character focused on martial versatility and maneuvers might find as a problem (since those feats could be used for more common prerequisites).
As in, despite the costs in feats and enhancement weirdness, it still comes out as 'it is a good decent choice' green when put up against the simplicity of regular manufactured weapons. So that speaks to its value.
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Comparing an Unarmed Specialist Class to those with weapons is not what a Guide to a class is about. If that is the case why play a class that does not use manufactured weapon.
Not to mention Pummeling Charge mimics Pounce which is what most Barbarians build to.
For unarmed damage and a class that gets an abundance of feats due to MF and Bonus feats it is definitely worth it.
Not to mention you can't have the best feats without some investment and the ability to Charge, Full attack and Apply DR to a Pool of attacks 1 time is definitely worth it...as Weapon users do not get that option Unless they are a Lancer character using Spirited Charge and a Lance getting 3x damage applied to DR 1 time. Helps mitigate not having Special gear/weapons. But the Lancer is still only getting 1 attack. =/ So it really is a golden Feat chain.
Comparing an Unarmed Specialist Class to those with weapons is not what a Guide to a class is about. If that is the case why play a class that does not use manufactured weapon.
Not to mention Pummeling Charge mimics Pounce which is what most Barbarians build to.
For unarmed damage and a class that gets an abundance of feats due to MF and Bonus feats it is definitely worth it.
Not to mention you can't have the best feats without some investment and the ability to Charge, Full attack and Apply DR to a Pool of attacks 1 time is definitely worth it...as Weapon users do not get that option Unless they are a Lancer character using Spirited Charge and a Lance getting 3x damage applied to DR 1 time. Helps mitigate not having Special gear/weapons. But the Lancer is still only getting 1 attack. =/ So it really is a golden Feat chain.
And this appears to be a guide where damage dealing is secondary to debuffing with maneuvers and such. With that in mind, a regular manufactured weapon is 'good enough' for fulfilling the secondary purpose of doing damage using only feats that you were getting anyway (like power attack).
And manufactured weapons have their appeal on brawlers. It is not 'unarmed or you are doing it wrong' here. The main advantage of manufactured weapons is that some of them can be 2 handed. With two handed, you can get x1.5 power attack on every hit. That can wrack up to a lot. Combine that with way cheaper enhancement costs (which is applied to every hit- a hidden advantage of flurry where you only need to invest in one weapon) and you can stack things up with better enhancement bonuses.
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The main advantage of manufactured weapons is that some of them can be 2 handed. With two handed, you can get x1.5 power attack on every hit. That can wrack up to a lot. Combine that with way cheaper enhancement costs (which is applied to every hit- a hidden advantage of flurry where you only need to invest in one weapon) and you can stack things up with better enhancement bonuses.
This is very true.
But I believe you're missing my point...depending on the Build and which maneuver you specialize in (because doing too many makes you weaker in PF) you are going to build the Damage feats that compliment it. For a build that chooses to Build Unarmed but Not to Go Power Attack->Grapple route then the options need to be discussed. Trip and Disarm both can be used While Flurrying is not a style that needs power attack because you're not going the grapple route.
A good point in his guide is the first 5 levels which IMO Trip beats out grapple on Action economy. And taking Negatives to your attack just for abit more damage can be gained elsewhere without loosing the To Hit.
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Yay!!!! My Half-orc Brawler is probably my favourite character I'm playing right now. An optimization guide for them is most welcome. :)
I'll agree that having a call sheet of Combat Feats you can pick up on the fly with Martial Flexibility makes all the difference in the world. My first level sheet started with 22 feats, and it's only gotten better as I've gone up levels.
The one thing I'd add: Don't forget Intimidation in the skills section. Intimidation is a class skill; also, Brawlers can pick up Intimidating Prowess on the fly, as it's a combat feat!!! My Brawler spends most of her time out of combat bullying the locals (termed enthusiastic negotiation). Between her Half-orc bonus, the Bred for War trait, and adding in her strength bonus through Intimidating Prowess, her numbers to intimate, even at first level, were just sick.
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Personally I'd put mutagenic Mauler as straight green.
Losing versatile sucks. But losing the ac bonus means you're no longer restricted by armour constraints and can pump the ac that way.
But as you yourself pointed out in the guide you get a lot of free feats and your jobs to stand there and punch things. Something the Mauler does incredibly well.
Green because it's clearly not "better" than the standard but it's pretty decent as is. You'll be one punching anything foe the first 4 levels with your bare hands. Can't say that's orange.
I argue for that rating because you start to resemble a(n effective) fighter more than a brawler as while it scales, it does it at the cost of the brawler's primary game. I am also only weighing 1-level splashes of brawler into other classes lighter than full class dedication builds. I am not including splashing other classes into a full brawler build (yet!) because that's opening a can of worms that I'd like to ease into.
As for the AC bonus, I don't value that very high because you can grab a light mithral shield while fighting unarmed, and never lose the AC bonus, granting you a higher AC and only missing out on a few points to your CMD. A good tradeoff in my mind.
Yay!!!! My Half-orc Brawler is probably my favourite character I'm playing right now. An optimization guide for them is most welcome. :)
I'm glad to hear it! I've loved the class since I first saw it, and I play a disgustingly effective combat maneuver generalist in PFS yet I never see anyone talk much about the class, nor saw any guides for it, so I wanted to try and contribute.
I also would like to say that I definitely undervalued Half-Orc, and will be rectifying that shortly. I did not go through alternate racial traits as thoroughly as I should have on my review, and I plan to fix that shortly. Thank you all for your feedback on the racial options!
Pummeling Style is Pure Blue...
I agree Pummeling Style is a solid choice, but I believe the value of Martial Flexibility is to pull out your tools when you need them, and parse out your feats to where they will do the best in the widest number of situations.
That said, I agree Pummeling is great, and I completely understand people's desire to take it. Actually getting pounce doesn't happen until level 12, which from a PFS perspective is a moot point to invest deeply in the tree. Further, it's an attack to maximize damage, and it isn't necessarily your only job, or even your primary one (though it does that job VERY WELL).
It is my opinion that the brawlers amazing ability is not to hyperfocus on any one maneuver, but in a single turn, to trip and disarm two opponents, or trip, disarm, and shatter one target's magic item and be great at ALL of those. I've found that most games have heavy hitters, and a brawler has stronger value in battlefield control, much like a god wizard.
If you're the front-line hammer in your party, I completely agree you need Pummeling style. If you're not the heaviest hitter, I actually recommend focusing more on battlefield control via brawler's flurry and let your BDF shine.
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No mention for the quick maneuver feats? There's one for Bull Rush, Dirty Trick, Drag, Reposition, and Steal. Yeah a few of those are kinda crappy, but Dirty Trick is flexible as all hell and blind is a very nice status effect.
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No mention for the quick maneuver feats? There's one for Bull Rush, Dirty Trick, Drag, Reposition, and Steal. Yeah a few of those are kinda crappy, but Dirty Trick is flexible as all hell and blind is a very nice status effect.
As I mentioned in the Martial Flexibility combo section, to go into crazy combo is something I could write a whole guide on itself. There are SO MANY WAYS you can use the ability to whip out some crazy effectiveness. Quick Maneuver feats are great, but also expensive. I don't think one should invest feats past Improved [Maneuver], using Martial Flexibility to reach into those amazing feat options as you need them. There is no optimal maneuver for a brawler, they are good at them all, which is a different bag of worms than a specialist.
The trip tree options are amazing, yes, but not always what you need. I'd always rather start a turn next to a mage and grapple them (following up with pinning) while using chokehold over tripping them. It's an auto-win situation and your CMB is high enough to make even dedicated mages question their chances of casting a spell, tele-school wizards aside. You have the CMB to trip AND disarm/sunder two strong melee opponents in a single round with half-way decent rolling, basically locking down half a hard encounter. Or even quick dirty trick and greater dirty trick and just blind a mess of opponents with (usually) a much harder "save" to make than a wizard can toss out with glitterdust. It lets you switch between DEVASTATING a single target, to debuffing a wide group of targets at will. This is the greatest power of the brawler in my mind, and it makes them capable of jumping between roles rapidly.
This is also why I am hesitant to write a build for a dedicated damage dealer, or dedicated anything. There are better one-trick builds out there than a brawler. It's a new approach to a build that you usually don't see a lot of in Pathfinder because trying to be good at lots of things usually spreads yourself too far. I argue you can and should do that with the brawler.
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Actually getting pounce doesn't happen until level 12, which from a PFS perspective is a moot point to invest deeply in the tree. Further, it's an attack to maximize damage, and it isn't necessarily your only job, or even your primary one (though it does that job VERY WELL).
Barbs Grab it at 10 immediately and if you're using Pummeling Charge to mimic Pounce you can have it around levels 2-4 easy enough.
It is my opinion that the brawlers amazing ability is not to hyperfocus on any one maneuver, but in a single turn, to trip and disarm two opponents, or trip, disarm, and shatter one target's magic item and be great at ALL of those.
The build I posted does have this ability minus the sunder until mid levels. MF can gain Improved Disarm very easily. Mid levels it can learn Power Attack->I Grapple. Dirty Trick and Quick Dirty Trick comes as well.
I've found that most games have heavy hitters, and a brawler has stronger value in battlefield control, much like a god wizard.
You must be Joking right? No you do not have the ability to come anywhere near a God wizards control...heck a Brawler having the issue of 5ft(10ft with Enlarge) threatened square does not have That much control. You're limited by your reach as where a Wizard or Other good Anvils are not. Plus the best kinds of Control also do damage and help end encounters faster (Create Pit line, Black tentacles, Dazing Wall of Fire or Continues damage spells). So if you're Going to anvil you should be getting in your damage as well. Combat maneuvers also tend to be less reliable as the Huge+ sized monsters have the advantage.
Another plug for Dragon Style is having the ability to get where you need to be. Ignoring Difficult terrain is a very nice bonus as well as charging through your allies. To control an enemy you need to get there as fast as possible to threaten them and start your control method. Another thing Most true Debuffers and Controllers have over you.
If you're the front-line hammer in your party, I completely agree you need Pummeling style. If you're not the heaviest hitter, I actually recommend focusing more on battlefield control via brawler's flurry and let your BDF shine.
What is your idea of a front-line hammer then? Cause a brawler sure is no archer, lancer, reach fighter, or Buffer. A brawler is a Front line Hammer who can choose to anvil with maneuvers but he is still FRONT LINES usually 5 feet from the enemy.
The trip tree options are amazing, yes, but not always what you need. I'd always rather start a turn next to a mage and grapple them (following up with pinning) while using chokehold over tripping them. It's an auto-win situation and your CMB is high enough to make even dedicated mages question their chances of casting a spell.
Funny I prefer to stand next to them with a readied Flurry of Badassdom when they try to move or cast. Most the time its a good old Stunning Fist or Knockout Blow. They know it is coming...they just aren't strong enough for that Quicken spell out...not at PFS levels. 9/10 he is out cold and I end up finishing with the Curb stomp.
Personally I'd put mutagenic Mauler as straight green.
Losing versatile sucks. But losing the ac bonus means you're no longer restricted by armour constraints and can pump the ac that way.
But as you yourself pointed out in the guide you get a lot of free feats and your jobs to stand there and punch things. Something the Mauler does incredibly well.
Green because it's clearly not "better" than the standard but it's pretty decent as is. You'll be one punching anything foe the first 4 levels with your bare hands. Can't say that's orange.
The mauler still want a Brawling Armor so he should stay in ligth armor.
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Barbs Grab it at 10 immediately and if you're using Pummeling Charge to mimic Pounce you can have it around levels 2-4 easy enough.
What am I missing? The style feat that grants the charge attack has a BAB req of +12 and requires levels in monk/brawler. Also we're not playing a barbarian here.
The build I posted does have this ability minus the sunder until mid levels. MF can gain Improved Disarm very easily. Mid levels it can learn Power Attack->I Grapple. Dirty Trick and Quick Dirty Trick comes as well.
What's the survivability/AC of the build? What's the CMB/CMD? Not saying you don't have a point, but some numbers would help me understand your argument. I'm of the mind a dex build is superior at the moment. They won't deal as much damage as your build, but (your) damage isn't always the name of the game.
You must be Joking right? No you do not have the ability to come anywhere near a God wizards control...heck a Brawler having the issue of 5ft(10ft with Enlarge) threatened square does not have That much control. You're limited by your reach as where a Wizard or Other good Anvils are not. Plus the best kinds of Control also do damage and help end encounters faster (Create Pit line, Black tentacles, Dazing Wall of Fire or Continues damage spells). So if you're Going to anvil you should be getting in your damage as well. Combat maneuvers also tend to be less reliable as the Huge+ sized monsters have the advantage.
Like. As in, is similar to in function. Hell no it isn't a god wizard. But to discount melee battlefield control is silly at best. I am not extremely well read in every class, but I'd feel safe stating the brawler has a strong hand in being one of the best at it. How boring would the class be if all it could do or its most effective form was to be the beat-stick.
Another plug for Dragon Style is having the ability to get where you need to be. Ignoring Difficult terrain is a very nice bonus as well as charging through your allies. To control an enemy you need to get there as fast as possible to threaten them and start your control method.
Yep. It's a great ability and tool to have on the belt. I'm not denying that. It's just not the only one. I am arguing that a brawler shouldn't focus on being 100% the best at a single trick, or even 95% at one and 70% at a number of others. I'm arguing that a brawler should be 85%+ the best at all the tricks.
Fighting some dozen-legged horror? Grapple it into submission.
Can't grapple the mage? Knock them out or steal/disarm their options.
Can't touch the horrible monster because your body will melt? Have weapons handy, MF into damage/evasion feats, and activate defensive styles to keep it from touching you.
Too big for maneuvers? Laugh at its DR and wreck it with damage that would make a barb give you a nod for good effort.
Nobody can hit the armored anti-paladin? Turn that full plate into tin foil.
Getting wrecked by the two-handed fighter(s)? Break the beat-stick in half, or take it and give them a view of the ceiling.
You aren't the best, but you have more range than the rest. Sure, you can specialize and deal RIDICULOUS amounts of damage, or you can make it so the 20% combat effectiveness increase you provided is translated into a 10% increase for your 5 party members and STILL be able to pull out that damage when you need to. A brawler's first job is to assess a situation and see what is the best way they can improve it. You can't do that with a half-assed CMB/CMD and AC. And you can't do it alone either.
That said, you've made a good point that for a STR based brawler it's not a bad choice. Dipping a couple levels into monk isn't bad either, particularly for a STR build. I'll admit I also dislike dipping for min/maxxing, preferring instead to do what I can within the class and explore its options, but that's just me.
What is your idea of a front-line hammer then? Cause a brawler sure is no archer, lancer, reach fighter, or Buffer. A brawler is a Front line Hammer who can choose to anvil with maneuvers but he is still FRONT LINES usually 5 feet from the enemy.
As I've said in the guide, he is both a hammer and an anvil. A brawler can jump between both and should be great at both. A STR-based brawler, however, doesn't have the survivability in higher levels of most front-line characters (it can be just fine in lower levels). AC begins to drop off, which is required for dragon style. Dipping levels into monk can also slow down access to some of your impressive class abilities, but I won't deny it isn't a bad choice either.
Dragon style charge is a great option too if the opponents are far enough away, but super alpha-strike murder-hobo isn't always the best move when you're playing a character without some solid defenses (and isn't always going to be an option if you're playing a dex build). Particularly if you charge yourself beyond your team's aid to get crushed the following round.
Funny I prefer to stand next to them with a readied Flurry of Badassdom when they try to move or cast. Most the time its a good old Stunning Fist or Knockout Blow. They know it is coming...they just aren't strong enough for that Quicken spell out...not at PFS levels. 9/10 he is out cold and I end up finishing with the Curb stomp.
Number of times you'll get to start next to a mage with a flurry of badassdom readied in a fight is 0 unless your GM hasn't read the rules; you can't ready a full round action.
I like running in and grappling because I can do it in the first round and it's just this side of impossible for most mages I'd encounter to make the concentration check with your astronomical CMB added in (+20-25 around level 8 isn't too hard, and a mage probably isn't going to make that check). Partial charge/knockout is my preference in a surprise round or if we're at the point where FoM is a thing (sweet sweet str/dex to DC fort save), or MF-ing into a feat or two and getting into position if there aren't better options. Or, as you noted, grab Dragon Style and go say hello with a knockout attack.
After a round or two in a chokehold and completely removing the mage from the fight (which at higher levels you can reasonably do one-handed, leaving you open to deal with others or use greater grappling and armor spikes to pile on damage), then you can free action release and do your full round flurry of badassdom with no worry of botching a couple attacks by rolling a 1 and leaving the mage conscious.
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It's actually a BAB requirement of 12, OR monk or brawler 8, so you can pick it up at 8. No idea where the level 2-4 number comes from unless we're talking about MoMS cheese.
Huh. Not how I would have figured it would have progressed, especially considering all of the style feats, but I see the semi-colon in there. Color me surprised.
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Ahh, you can't get your brawler's flurry attacks with it either. Keeps it from being too crazy I guess.
It's actually a BAB requirement of 12, OR monk or brawler 8, so you can pick it up at 8. No idea where the level 2-4 number comes from unless we're talking about MoMS cheese.Huh. Not how I would have figured it would have progressed, especially considering all of the style feats, but I see the semi-colon in there. Color me surprised.
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Ahh, you can't get your brawler's flurry attacks with it either. Keeps it from being too crazy I guess.
Why cant you get brawlers flurry attacks with it. Flurry is a full attack action and that is ok with pummeling style. Unless i am missing somthing?
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Why cant you get brawlers flurry attacks with it. Flurry is a full attack action and that is ok with pummeling style. Unless i am missing somthing?It's actually a BAB requirement of 12, OR monk or brawler 8, so you can pick it up at 8. No idea where the level 2-4 number comes from unless we're talking about MoMS cheese.Huh. Not how I would have figured it would have progressed, especially considering all of the style feats, but I see the semi-colon in there. Color me surprised.
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Ahh, you can't get your brawler's flurry attacks with it either. Keeps it from being too crazy I guess.
Both require full round actions to initiate, as in 2 of them. It takes a full round action to do a pummeling attack, and it takes a full round action to initiate a brawler's flurry, which means you can't get access to the TWF feats in the same round you pummel.
No both work with a full attack action, so they work togeather.
If this was not the case it would make no sense that a brawler can get the feat at level 2 like a monk, it even says in the feat that you can use it with a flurry. A flurry of blows but this combined with the full attack should be enough.
Pummel:
As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch. Make a number of rolls equal to the number of attacks you can make with a full attack
Brawler's Flurry:
a brawler can make a brawler's flurry as a full-attack action.
They work together. Pummel says make a full-attack and brawler's flurry says it's a full-attack.
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What am I missing? The style feat that grants the charge attack has a BAB req of +12 and requires levels in monk/brawler. Also we're not playing a barbarian here.
In my original post I gave note the Master of Many styles monk is a very nice dip and should be noted in your guide. You gain a lot for taking the dip include the option to SKIP pre-reqs on style feats allowing you to get any style feat WAY earlier than any other class. As well as Stunning fist, the ability to use 2 styles, and Higher Saves. You also gain the ability to choose evasion Versus Toughness with the Iron Mountain Archetype. for the 2nd Monk level which is really good too. Taking toughness helps you be on the front lines.
It's actually a BAB requirement of 12, OR monk or brawler 8, so you can pick it up at 8. No idea where the level 2-4 number comes from unless we're talking about MoMS cheese.
Yes I was cheesing in MoMS monk because it is one of the best Dips for a Brawler if you don't mind dipping. But there are some players who are so anal they would never consider dipping anything.
This guy is also right About the Pre-reqs.
Yep. It's a great ability and tool to have on the belt. I'm not denying that. It's just not the only one. I am arguing that a brawler shouldn't focus on being 100% the best at a single trick, or even 95% at one and 70% at a number of others. I'm arguing that a brawler should be 85%+ the best at all the tricks.
It is a known fact about pathfinder as a system it rewards specialities and is really hard on people who try to focus on too much making overall weaker characters...Pick 1-3 Maneuvers and give it your all. If those maneuvers fail you still have knockout and pure damage to fall back on.
Trying to do every single maneuver is actually going against the system and you risk failing more than succeeding.
What's the survivability/AC of the build? What's the CMB/CMD? Not saying you don't have a point, but some numbers would help me understand your argument. I'm of the mind a dex build is superior at the moment. They won't deal as much damage as your build, but (your) damage isn't always the name of the game.
Ac of my build would be lower than a dex build. But having Combat Expertise level 1 helps with that. The CMB/CMD will be roughly the same BUT the STR build is better in this department...especially when Enlarge Person is used. In the late game AC is not as important as Saves and your defenses should be layered more than just AC. Miss chances like Blur are what helps you survive having that Light armor. Sure Dex has the better AC but Pathfinder as a game rewards Offense over Defense. This is an established FACT on these boards. So in the very beginning there is not much difference in DEX and STR builds...in the end game STR wins out.
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Boo-hoo! I can't haz no greatsword!
Read this and you'll be over it double quick. perhaps a tad stupiderer for having read it, but you may come to see why the brawler beats the bogusly Handi-capped I-7,C-7 fighter senseless!
Firstly, I would also like to point out that at low levels, the humble quarterstaff can be wielded as a double weapon, and as a monk weapon! when used with weapon finesse and a dex build the Brawler has:
1. A good starting initiative
2. +chain shirt (or a custom design "parade armor") for a decent Melee AC.
3. A fair bonus to acrobatics (Awesome for Squishing the enemy rear row squishies).
4. A positive hit bonus even when used with two weapon fighting (aka Brawler's Brawlin'! Heck, with a 14 strength and a 16 (turn 18 dex racial bonus) you get a +2 damage with both ends!
5. CMD, yes this is really useful!
Back to the Q-staff...
A Druid should be your best friend with one first level spell prepped or a wand of...
"Shillelagh" turn your quarterstaff (with 14 strength, 2nd level base attack bonus, and Brawlin' into a +3/+3 to hit 2d6+3/2d6+3, Magical +1 for Countering DR damage dishing out monster!
... Greatsword, who ..?
I feel that this Saves the brawler from the 1d6 damage dumps at low levels.
Wooden quarterstaves aren't food for rust monsters and ignore all the bad things (a number of spells) that can target metal, as a two handed weapon are hard to disarm, and well damn!
In Pathfinder Society play: I find rolling two attacks is better than one - even with a -2 penalty! Just imagine the look on your fellows faces as you put the 2d6+3/2d6+3 smack down on bad guys with a quickness!
So, feats:
Brawler-improved unarmed
Weapon finesse
(if you have a bonus feat from race)
Dodge...
or maybe additional traits, (oh- look it here! a Segway Soliloquy!)
Traits:
*Will Save saver? "latent Psion" +2 vs Mind effecting.
*Wanna help the rogue a bit with the "overt covert"?
Grab a trait that makes stealth into a class skill, oh look your dex bonus pimps that out too! Take a trait that grants extra starting cash or a masterwork item and invest in a set of Master work Parade armor, no skill check penalty- and you can look good whilst pwning!
*out of combat role - "Face".
You have intimidate, you have sense motive, you have knowledge- local... you don't need bluff or diplomacy as much but if you grab these skills as class skills with traits they may come with a +1 bonus.
Str 14, Dex 18*, Con 10, Int 12, wis 10, Cha 13- and at first level Human bonus skill rank and Favored class bonus skill rank, can give you 7 skills at rank 1, but as a face with trait bonuses you practically count as having a 15 charisma. Alluring, Fast talker, diplomatic.
This is a huge boon as you do not have to role play an intelligence challenged buffoon who can be turned on his/her friends with a short speech...
(Soz, int 7-cha 7 fytur guy*)
Hey, masterwork parade armor may even give you a +2 diplomacy bonus!
*Crazy mad moves through the enemy ranks...
1. Reactionary - for the +2 initiative.
2. Careful combatant - when using the withdraw action you don't provoke AoO for 2 squares instead of one. This can be a HUGE life saver!
3. Dervish - yeah, that word again. this trait gives you a +1 dodge bonus when moving past an enemy and those dodge bonuses stack! when you get mobility, this turns your +1 dodge, +4 mobility, +4 Dex, +3 parade armor into a 23 ac Versus Provoked AoO's!
4. Unorthodox Strategy - a +2 bonus on acrobatics checks when tumbling through an enemies space.
Heck this might make a Halfling Brawler Seem slightly palatable when you add in the Shillelagh+ quarter staff damage bump.
*********Last note************
If you are ever stripped of your gear, necked, unprepared, etc.
You have far less to fear than the handicapped fighter class...
Your rogue buddy will love you when you set up flanking bonuses and the whole 2d6+3/2d6+3 thing makes you rather brutal.
with some clever trait fenaglling, you can be a "Face"-"leader" as well as a debuffing, controller, tactician, with a side of insane druidic DPS!
When an adventure strips you of your gear, it is by far easier to come across a quartstaff or two clubs stand-in than say ...
a Masterwork Aldori Dueling Blade, stack of star-knives +1 returning, MW bastardsword, or even a spell book.
As a brawler, you can pray for the best and Deal with the worst without tears - That makes the brawler GOLDEN!
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As to "Strength builds being teh uber".
no, not in this case.
If you are a strength build and you fight defensively, or strip your Base attack bonus down with Combat expertise/power attack...
you end up digging a "to hit" hole that is Mighty hard to climb back out of!
with a 20 strength, weapon focus, and a master work weapon, that's a +7 to hit and a +5 (or +7 two handed) damage. you end up *NEEDING* magic to make your character able to perform like a dex build.
So what?
you have no bonus to reflex saves, no bonus with initiative, no bonus AC, and no bonus to dexterity skills like acrobatics and stealth. For that matter, you just flat out have no skills... especially when one tosses on armor check penalty.
The Finesse brawler with the quarter staff, 14 strength and 18 dex, will have a +5 to hit and +3 damage when using the staff two handed- this isn't something on can ignore. +5 to hit, +3 damage these numbers are not shabby.
now use the staff as a monk weapon with brawler's brawlin' and Shillelagh. Now the finesse brawler can lay down +4/+4 to hit, (*I haven't added weapon focus, but could with martial flexibility for a +5/+5). as for damage, 2d6+3 and 2d6+3 is nothing to ignore, seeing as how the handicapped fighter (18 str, 13 dex, 16 con, -7 int, 14 wis, -7 cha) will only have One attack with a greatsword, and the strength build dumping BAB for Combat expertise AC is limited by one thing...
It is not "Always on" it has to be your turn for you to use it.
the end result is that you dump your ability to hit things to be defensive, or deal more damage... once. this just doesn't work.
A whole lot hangs on that one roll of the dice,
and there is absolutely nothing that says a gnome with a 20 charisma with a trait like alluring: class skills diplomacy and bluff, won't be able to turn you into her "bestie" with a mere wink - and against your former comrades who are also likely min-maxers, and thus have no skills to counter her argument that you should help her against those that "just cruelly use you as a donk!"
Sure, your wizard might be able to cast charm person to get you back under control... but remember, -7 intelligence, and -7 charisma should be *ROLE PLAYED*...
your fellows may actually detest you and be tired of having to remind you of what the plan is - they may actually be abusive towards you. Thus, you have absolutely no reason to be loyal.
besides, gnome girls always have Scooby snacks for bold heroes that save them from those grumpies!
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lemme see, Dwarf handicapped fighter.
Str:18 (+4) (-17 points)
Dex:13 (+1) (-3 points)
Con:18 (+4) (-10 points)*plus race
Int: 7 (-2) (+4 points)
Wis:10 (0) (+2 points)*Plus Race
Cha: 5 (-3) (+4 points)
starting gold 150 gp, trait rich parents or something that gives you mad cash. Buy Plate Mail, Heavy steel Shield,
let's add that Scion trait and give ourselves a Master work Dwarven War axe!
You are a BEAST of Armored AC!
You Are outrageously tough!
You can slay with the best of them!
Feats:
1. Weapon focus
Fighter bonus: power attack
For Ships and jiggles we say your D.M. allows you to trade in Tower shield Prof for "toughness".
2nd fighter: Cleave.
We could sacrifice the armor class of the fighter here by going barbarian with a greataxe too, and then drool over the effects of RAGE...
22 strength and con, bonus hit points, Two handed damage multiplier.
ooh, ahh, oh...
Nope, gimme a human or half elven brawler any day of the week.
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These effects only occur when the weapon is wielded by you. If you do not wield it, the weapon behaves as if unaffected by this spell.
Well, you are so fond of Dipping. one level of druid? as you are so fond of dipping. or just a trait to gain "use magic device" as a class skill (wand of Shillelagh) and perhaps have a +1 trait bonus, along with the +1 from charisma?
there are ways.
Hey, maybe when you level up you can get a Magic quarter staff made with Shillelagh made permanent.
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Well, you are so fond of Dipping.
I'm fond of Dipping when the payoff is worth it. Like the monk Dip I mentioned adds A LOT to the brawler package. Stunning fist, Saves, Continued UA damage scaling, using 2 styles at 1 time, By-passing Pre-reqs for style feats, More feats....the payoff is huge compared to a single Level of druid offers very little to a brawler other than 1-2 first level spells and the ability to use Wands/Scrolls of the druid spell list.
UMD is a good Idea if you do not dump CHA. UMD is a godly skill. Giving you access to TRUE STRIKE, Enlarge Person, Shield, Longstrider, CLW, Feather Step, Gravity bow/Lead blades, and the many other low level buffs that kick any class into overdrive.
I'm not sure if allowing a permanency of Shillelagh is a good idea as it is very strong. There is Impact But the Quarterstaff suffers from being a double weapon when it comes to enchantments.
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UMD is a good Idea if you do not dump CHA. UMD is a godly skill. Giving you access to TRUE STRIKE, Enlarge Person, Shield, Longstrider, CLW, Feather Step, Gravity bow/Lead blades, and the many other low level buffs that kick any class into overdrive.
I'm not sure if allowing a permanency of Shillelagh is a good idea as it is very strong. There is Impact But the Quarterstaff suffers from being a double weapon when it comes to enchantments.
Hmm, seems like the Dex build Brawler works and may even be superior to Strength builds.
Level 1 BrawlerHuman, Medium size, 30 foot move. Fem, 19, 6'4" 180 lbs, athletic build. Platinum blonde, blue eyes, pale skin. Visarian from Varisia, background former member of a troupe of traveling acrobats (thieves).
Str:14+2 Fort:+2 Armor: Parade armor, Master work, no skill check penalty
Dex:18+4 Will:+0 AC: 17, flat: 13, touch:14
Con:10+0 Ref:+6 Q-staff: +3, 1d6+3 or (+3/+3 1d6+2/1d6+1)
Int:12+1 init:+4 unarmed: +5, 1d6+6 or (+3/+3 1d6+2/1d6+1)
Wis:10+0 load:58 -Feats-
Cha:13+1 HP: 10 B: imp unarmed, H: add traits, 1st: Weapon finesse,
-Class- Brawler's cunning, martial flex,
-Traits-
1. Dangerously Curious (Use magic device is a class skill, with a +1 trait bonus.)
2. Friend in every town (You gain a +1 trait bonus on all Knowledge (local) checks and Diplomacy checks. One of these skills (your choice) is always a class skill for you. diplomacy selected.)
3. Conspiracy hunter (Choose one of the following skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Knowledge (local), Perception, Sense Motive, or Stealth. You gain a +1 trait bonus on this skill and it is always considered a class skill for you. Selected Stealth.)
4. Fast talker (Bluff is a class skill, with a +1 trait bonus.)
skill points: 4, +1 h, +1 fcb, +1 int = 7
-List of skills
1.Acrobat _ :1 +3+4+0=+8
2.bluff _ :1 +3+1+1=+6
3.diplomacy_:1 +3+1+1=+6
4.intimidate:1 +3+1+0=+5
5.perception:1 +3+0+0=+4
6.sense moti:1 +3+0+0=+4
7.stealth _ :1 +3+4+1=+9
second level I can pick up:
1.climb _:1 +3+2+0=+6
2.craft _:1 +3+1+0=+5 select one.
3.escape_:1 +3+4+0=+8
4.k-local:1 +3+1+1=+5
5.prof _ :1 +3+0+0=+4 select one or learn k-dun.
6.ride _ :1 +3+4+0=+8
7.swim _ :1 +3+2+0=+6
as one rank buys and then advance the most important skills as I level.
This character may appear fragile at first, but that impression won't last long.
This character can serve as a party "Face" or "Leader" when it comes to non-combat social skills. Ta-dah! you have gained a role and added a dimension to your character! unlike the strength build fighter, you are not a retard to be pushed along to serve as a beast of burden.
Unlike the typical "tank-mail" warrior, you can actually collaborate with the rogues and others who delight in flanking foes, and using stealth to position yourself. yeah, you can be tactical without potentially sacrificing your point scout.
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You're entitled to your own opinion. But going to be honest a 10 con on a frontliner is pretty terrible. All to get a 12 int and a 13 cha...all for some social skills. Spread yourself out too much you will be weaker.
Tho outside of PFS the new SKill rules from the Unchained book is pretty nice giving Fluff skills every level on top of your regular leveling skill points. Adds the depth your trying to get without severely neutering your character.
I will trust my instincts and the math on this debate and go with the STR build and leave Dex to people who do less Combat maneuvers and don't need to get feat taxed to be viable at doing them. As well as the Ability Modifier that gets better with Enlarge person. Because size bonus along with extra strength really puts the Edge towards STR. When you drink a Enlarge potion you actually lose -2 dex.
The weapon hardly matters Quarterstaff, unarmed, Bayonet, or what have you.
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You're entitled to your own opinion. But going to be honest a 10 con on a frontliner is pretty terrible. All to get a 12 int and a 13 cha...all for some social skills. Spread yourself out too much you will be weaker.
Tho outside of PFS the new SKill rules from the Unchained book is pretty nice giving Fluff skills every level on top of your regular leveling skill points. Adds the depth your trying to get without severely neutering your character.
I will trust my instincts and the math on this debate and go with the STR build and leave Dex to people who do less Combat maneuvers and don't need to get feat taxed to be viable at doing them. As well as the Ability Modifier that gets better with Enlarge person. Because size bonus along with extra strength really puts the Edge towards STR. When you drink a Enlarge potion you actually lose -2 dex.
The weapon hardly matters Quarterstaff, unarmed, Bayonet, or what have you.
1. pathfinder society doesn't use the optional skill rules from unchained.
2. I am not spreading myself too thin, you're too focused. the image I get is off the reaper mini "Pin-head barbarian"... why are you even talking about the brawler if what you want is one of the two dwarves I mentioned above? regardless, your idea of a character is "Shallow, Selfish, one dimensional, meta-gamer min-maxing, and most certainly not Role Playing". you may quote me.
3. all I have to do is drop the charisma and int to 10, that gives me 5 points and "ta-dah" I could have a 14 con. but, what the hell- why stop there. 7 int, 10 wis, and 7 cha, gives me another 8 points to blow, now I can bump (Choose one) strength or Constitution to 17. as for traits, hey just use armor expert and reckless, and go with a chain shirt...
in terms of feats, let's go with weapon focus unarmed because you wanna put your hands into everything, including green slime. besides all that...
of course, now the character is hideous, uncouth, slovenly, non-hygienic, and retarded...
is that the kind of hero that you aspire to be?
4. your instincts are likely equal to your idea of "Character" and "What Math?" you haven't demonstrated any math.
5. a dexterity build isn't "feat taxed" beyond one, and only one feat. Weapon finesse. as to the rest of it; if You buy combat expertise with your build - so can I. I could buy dodge. I could buy alertness. I can buy power attack. I can buy any number of entry level feats and use martial flexibility to take further steps down any the related feat chains. got power attack? Martial flex, and I can benefit from cleave or improved sunder. Got combat expertise, I can use any feat that uses it as a prerequisite. as I add levels I can build towards more than one possible feat chain. of course, weapon finesse may also be the root feat needed for its own feat chains; does that make it "taxed" anymore?
only if your strength score provides you a better bonus to hit than your dex.
6. does the weapon matter?
You ever bring short swords to a skeleton fight?
You ever try to cut a rope bridge with a wooden club?
you ever play unarmed punch the Flesh-feasting-maggot laden zombie?
Ever use a torch to warm your hands while you search for firewood?
Yes weapon choice does matter. what is the point of high strength build if your damage dice is 1d2 or 1d3?
Do not claim that a strength build is superior when you HAVE NOTHING to back it up.
Let's say your 1/2orc brawler has:
Str 20.
Dex 11
Con 16
Int 7
wis 10
cha 7
you enlarge, you get bull's strength, bear's endurance...
Your ac is 14 with a chain shirt, you have 4 skills at 1 rank, and you have 19 hit points with toughness and favored class. traits - you go the route of +2 on all saves.
any D.M. worth his salt is going to have someone convince you to turn on your travelling "donk handlers".
then what lemmy, shall George tell you about the rabbits?
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Hell, I'd pit my human brawler against your 1/2 orc.
1. I will go first.
2. you'll be surprised.
3. you'll be flat-footed.
4. I can use my full round attack
5. Quarter staff + shillelagh
6. I still go first but you might get to go this round.
7. full round attack.
you are dead.
alternately, she just tells you that "YOU ARE BEING A BAD BOY! STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING RIGHT NOW! I AM GONNA TELL YOUR MOMMY!"
and I win again...
you are the weakest link, good bye!
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The Lady doth protest too much.
Hell, I'd pit my human brawler against your 1/2 orc
Did I post a Half orc? I don't remember on this thread posting one....Scan...nope no half orc. But I will take the Human build I posted for Level 1 because the half orc you listed is TRASH and I would not Allocate to a 20 str and dump my dex to a 11 on a brawler I have been playing since 3.5 days and have enough experience and credit on this boards to back up I can build overwhelming characters without too much munchkin or cheezy tricks.
1. I will go first.
2. you'll be surprised.
3. you'll be flat-footed.
4. I can use my full round attack
5. Quarter staff + shillelagh
6. I still go first but you might get to go this round.
7. full round attack.
Several things here are completely wrong...
2. what situation are you catching me by surprise?4. This is hard to accomplish when you only get a move or Standard action in the surprise round and a full round attack is just that a full round action and can not be used in the Surprise round.
5. Shillelagh requires an action to put on your weapon...at level 1 that is 50g and a STANDARD ACTION.
6. If I get to go you are tripped
7. See number 6 and
A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
There are a ton of Variables and getting the drop on someone with a +5 perception considered 15 when taking 10 with a stealth of +9. Considering if I am a half-orc I plan to be in a Dark room where my Darkvision gives me the advantage and also provides me with a 50% concealment against you. 20% if you bring a light source and turn it to dim lighting but you also nerf your stealth check by bringing that light.
But I will let you think what you want and can see the evidence of you don't know wtf you're talking about with how many different rulings you have already failed. As well as poor reading comprehension like here:
1. pathfinder society doesn't use the optional skill rules from unchained.
Tho outside of PFS
How about an example of backtracking statements in an debate:
a dexterity build isn't "feat taxed" beyond one, and only one feat. Weapon finesse.
Have you ever heard of Agile Maneuvers Yes that is another feat tax for a DEX brawler wanting to be as good as the STR brawler. But even still a feat tax is a feat tax is a feat tax...no matter how you look at it the Dex brawler has a Feat tax. You only prove my point with that sentence above.
does the weapon matter?
You ever bring short swords to a skeleton fight?
You ever try to cut a rope bridge with a wooden club?
you ever play unarmed punch the Flesh-feasting-maggot laden zombie?
Ever use a torch to warm your hands while you search for firewood?Yes weapon choice does matter. what is the point of high strength build if your damage dice is 1d2 or 1d3?
I am sorry for the Confusion I gave you when I said the weapon hardly matters at all. I was talking from a damage aspect as a majority of Brawler weapons have low damage dice and the difference tends to be 1-3 points of damage. As for your other questions A simple dagger and fists can handle every situation you listed.
But since you want to get into this...Dex character gets straight dex to damage...A STR brawler using a Bayonet in 2 hands gets 1 & 1/2 Str to damage...since you say you want math I believe the 1 & 1/2 damage wins...But lets not stop there lets add in power attack...the 2 handed STR Brawler wins again with adding +3 to his damage over +2 to the Dex version.
But I grow tired of you anyways so this is my last post on this thread with you as I do not want to derail it any further.
Good day.
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and you still do not have anything to counter my argument.
Not only is my dex build character the better character for role playing, but the character is still going to take your idiot out.
Strength build superior? not so much.
I don't have to take all those traits. I don't have to take agile maneuvers. the character has 14 strength for a +2 bonus. I take the trait for use magic device, and Stealth. Does that spell shillelagh have a duration? yup. So I can have it on the staff for a little while. why is this important?
I spot you, and hide. I tap the staff. I sneak closer.
You still won't know I am there because your character has meat between its ears.
I do 2d6+3 with every hit. you won't know I am there until after I have already struck. I could miss, but a flatfooted goon is so much easier to beat the hell out of. as much as 15 hit points gone in the surprise round- without a critical.
Roll for initiative! what is that? can you even act yet? no? why?
I am 30% more likely to go first? oh, why yes I am.
*FULL ROUND ATTACK*
BAM! second attack.
as much as another 15 points lost, again without a critical.
Opps, I did it again!
as much as another 15 points lost, again without a critical.
BAM! the third attack!
at the minimum this is -15 points of damage, at the maximum (*without crits) it's -45.
When do you attempt a trip attack? from the grave?
good look with that one corpse boy...
The guide says that Perception is not a class skill, but d20PFSRD says it is.
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I'm confused why you state the following under the Shield Champion archetype:
The rules don’t specifically state you start with shield bash as a weapon proficiency, so you’ll have to buy it with a feat until it (probably) gets errata'd.
Shield Bash is not, itself, a weapon. Light Shields and Heavy Shields ARE, however. And they are both included in the Close Weapons Fighter Weapon Group, so even the base Brawler has proficiency in them automatically. And the archetype says, "A shield champion is proficient with all simple weapons and with shields as weapons." That covers it, as well, 'cuz a shield is a weapon. Shield bash is not.
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I'm confused why you state the following under the Shield Champion archetype:
The rules don’t specifically state you start with shield bash as a weapon proficiency, so you’ll have to buy it with a feat until it (probably) gets errata'd.Shield Bash is not, itself, a weapon. Light Shields and Heavy Shields ARE, however. And they are both included in the Close Weapons Fighter Weapon Group, so even the base Brawler has proficiency in them automatically. And the archetype says, "A shield champion is proficient with all simple weapons and with shields as weapons." That covers it, as well, 'cuz a shield is a weapon. Shield bash is not.
Shield Champions proficiency do not include all Close Weapons, only all simple weapons. Shields are martial weapons.
Until the errata late last year they also were not proficient with "shields as weapons" ether, which is what the OP was referring to.
I've been reading your guide and so far I've very much enjoyed it. I do have one thing I'd probably mention. Combat Expertise in your mentioning of feats is great but you could take Dirty fighting instead. You get positives when you're flanking vs a -1 to hit and -1 combat maneuver checks and possibly a nice +4 if you're already able to do this with improved trip.
Dirty Fighting (Combat)
You can take advantage of a distracted foe.
Benefit(s): When you attempt a combat maneuver check against a foe you are flanking, you can forgo the +2 bonus on your attack roll for flanking to instead have the combat maneuver not provoke an attack of opportunity. If you have a feat or ability that allows you to attempt the combat maneuver without provoking an attack of opportunity, you can instead increase the bonus on your attack roll for flanking to +4 for the combat maneuver check.
Special: This feat counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of the various improved combat maneuver feats, as well as feats that require those improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites.
I'm not any expert at the game by any means. So I've personally taken this feat instead of Combat expertise, so I'm curious if there is any real downside to this vs combat expertise for this class
The big thing is that there are some feats that have Combat Expertise as a prerequisite that aren't related to the maneuver feats. Dirty Fighting won't let you pick those up.
That said, if you don't care about losing the ability to pick those feats up with Martial Versatility, Dirty Fighting is more useful by itself.