Saramouse's page

I don't think anyone is really arguing for the abilities to reload/fire as a single action. I think what most people are looking for is some sort of fun/interesting utility to be added during the very VERY common times they are required to reload. Reloading is at times 2/3 of your actions so let them do SOMETHING to be helpful even if it isn't pumping out damage.

Let a Charisma slinger give a buff to another class by complimiting or debuff by insulting while reloading.

Let a Int slinger recall knowledge about the hostiles or puzzles.

Let wisdom... Im stumped on this one. Be wise!

Con, str, dex are combat attack/being attacked stuff. Let the other attributes give them something unique that will make ever slinger somewhat different besides just the ways then toss in feats for flavor to bump that up. This would make reloading interesting/fun and make the class not feel so punished for using their main weapon, adds synergy to other players possibly and adds utility beyond "I blast it." Is it a perfect solution, no but it's a more interesting take on "I shoot, I reload, I shoot." and it gives the class some flavor all to itself around the reload mechanic it's forced into.

I'm all for not having damage power as long as the mechanics that take away from that are fun and interesting and ADD something outside of damage.

Is all that going to far or unreasonable?

So on the topic of 'FUN' I don't think this will be a fun class to play in combat. Thematic yes. You can bump up charisma and stuff and enjoy out of combat just as flavorful as you'd like but combat itself feels very clunky. I think it's important to look at possible playstyles an feats

Feats that feature reloading:

Quick Draw lvl 2: I am only including this because it gives you the ability to get a weapon loaded. However it has the drawback of not giving you benefits of loading a gun like firearm ace. Also the fact that this forces you to strike removes the option of using this to set up a reaction ability later (though if that was your goal just reload normally). This feat seems good for dual pistols at best and even then it feels lacking to me (this probably becomes gold once weapons with mags are added, but we're not there...yet...) As things are now just toss weapons away and draw new ones. Thematic but hope no one steals your 6-12g guns that you purchased by level 2 or hope you've a stockpile of money someplace.

Risky Reload lvl 2: Spend an action to interact to reload and strike. If the strike hits great if not your gun misfires. Once again giving AoO's if in melee but this is probably for people not wanting to be so up close. But if you use this in later MAP attacks misfire chances go up. Out of the two I'd say this one is slightly more useable with decent risk/reward other than possibility of AoO.

Running Reload lvl 4: you can reload while moving. This is the BEST one on this list so far. Moving away from someone trying to kill you is probably your best defense. the fact you can use this not just on stride, but also on sneak, step to reload means you can move out of AoO then fire and run for your life (if that's your style of play.) I feel this is a MUST for any gunslinger who isn't melee as it's the only thing that somewhat fixes action economy and makes reloading feel somewhat useful.

Reloading Strike lvl 6 (Way of drifter only): Strike with a melee then use a interact to reload. This prompts AoO and is a big problem since you HAVE to be melee with the strike. If this didn't prompt AoO I'd say this would be a solid feat for the way it's made for. But waiting till level 6 feeels BAD. Why isn't this baked into the way? maybe make it upgrade at level 6 so AoO's don't happen? give it something.

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Now that feats have been covered lets look at playstyles.

Pistol/open hand & rifle & xbow: You get to reload and fire per normal this is the basis for the class and what most feats are being balanced off I expect. Reloading with this feels uninteresting but no more punishing than you'd expect so while it might be boring it isn't a big henderency it's just not fun. Giving these styles something fun/interesting to do during reloading (take cover, recall knowledge, demoralize anything.) would make them far more enjoyable and like their aciton isn't just a 'waste'

Pistol/pistol: There really isn't anything going on here at all (which is sad as this is the one I was most interested in). The playtest even suggest that this should be a viable build. but as thing are you fall behind in action economy have to spend feats into a archtype that becomes dead for you. Thematically fun idea but mechanically not so fun. Giving this style the ability to reload guns with hands full as base would put this on par with pistol/open hand style with exception of 1 action lead for reloading. You can take quick draw but why try to dual weild you're just going to drop guns over and over. might as well just 1h your weapons and hold a shield or something.

Pistol/melee weapon: This way feels kinda odd. It dosen't feel strong to start but it can get there. You get the ability to do what you're looking to do at level 6 so until then either stay back cause your squishier than a fighter. or just go in melee and be squishier than a figher. Once level 6 comes around things get better but the feat needed to make your class fantasy work causes AoO which feels bad.

~~~~~~ I'm probably missing stuff here this was just a quick write up on some problems I see. I want this class to be good so even with all these flaws I plan to actually play one out in the game I have going on in the next few days but I am worried it won't be as fun as a melee fighter or even a bow fighter.

The reload action as thematic as it is just feels very restricting without select feats. If you're allowed to sit back and pelt away it isn't so bad but most of the time you'll have to move to get in or out of range. so that at best leaves you with 2 shots if you've taken running reload or 1 if you haven't (running reload feels vital to the class just like alchemist quick draw for bombers. And I'm not a fan of feats being used as fixes to a class I feel they should enhance the thematic/flavor a class has.)

Also if anyone has good ideas how to make pistol/pistol work I'd be delighted to hear them but so far i'm at a total loss.

I just want to pop in here and say, please do talk to the existing player who's running a Champion and get player-to-player consensus on how their existing character would handle a necromancer.

I know that there's a mile of difference between a "uses necromancy school spells" necromancer and "raises the dead to unlife" necromancer.

But... if this Champion is a Truth, Justice and the American Way sort of a champion, or even a Judge Dredd type champion, I can see that player being bummed that a necromancer joined the party and now they have to choose between being an accomodating player at the table but putting aside a core character concept, or else sticking to their character's guns (they were there first after all) and being a confrontational player.

I think that there are plenty of ways you can both have fun with your characters, mind you, but I know that I'd appreciate the conversation up front if such divergent characters were to be put together on the same team. Just by example, if you both agree that there could come a time when your characters will find their differences to be too great and it comes to parting ways/combat, that could be a really fun slow-burn sort of story, and so long as you all know that's the story you're telling, and you're OK with the characters not always being best buddies, that would be really awesome.

Just, getting blind-sided by it.. maybe not so much.

Heh the Champion is the one who is inviting/encouraging me to bring this character into the game.

Thank you both very much that actually explains what has seemed like the most difficult part to understand about how the casting works.

Regarding the gods, you can say you worship the pantheon and have a lot of respect for Pharasma. You might even get away with worshiping her, just don't create any undead. You can still use necromancy as she is not against that magic, she even has the death domain.

Main problem with Pharasma is my character will raise undead in a few situations So this already makes her a BIG no and conflict with my character even if my character did it for the best of intentions.

Situations my character would be willing to raise the dead are . 1. the situation is dire and many lives are at risk. or 2. she has someone who actually willingly agrees to come back from the dead, be it using talk with dead or just really getting invested in a npc enough that they agree to help the character in undeath.

The result of the 1st option. is my character will probably lay those undead to rest once the threat is dealt with due to respect for the departed living.

The 2nd option: My character would keep them around but would treat them as if they were still a living being. This option would be far more rare but I think it would be way more interesting to have undead that my character can relate to in a more deep way than just "You're a tool and what happens to you doesn't matter." After all this is a character that sees the balance of life and death as the Most important thing in their mind.

Thanks for the replies.

I did plan to take Soothe while I don't think I'll be focused on being the party healer I do understand the importance of having a backup heal (even if it's just for me to be selfish with at times) So that is one spell take up.

I am still trying to grasp how spells work in this. I read mention of you can learn the same spell multiple times? Can anyone break that down for me as to how it works and why you might do that?

Well we have another mage who's a blaster I think for the most part they stick near the champion and I don't want to make a hostile see a nice juicy fireball spot so I'll probably keep a bit of distance from them unless that spot opens up. I am not sure if I'm going to use ranged or melee or even use a weapon at all myself. I know I'll be putting my points into Dex for survivability so any weapons would probably go that way. (tho I heard something about only rogues having Dex damage now?)

As for spells I am not totally going to be using pure Necromancy spells. There are just to many useful spells to focuse into just that. Don't get me wrong there are plenty I like but Most Seem to be either very situational or more damage related.

I think this character will be using spells along the lines of things like:

lvl 1: Command, Fear, Grim Tendrils (I just really like the concept of this one), Phantom Pain, Ray of Enfeeblement, Soothe, Summon Fey, Ventriloquism.

lvl 2: Calm emotions, Darkness, Dispel Magic, Feast of Ashes, Ghoul Cravings, hideous Laughter, Invisibility, Paranoia, Telekinetic Maneuver.

lvl 3: Bind undead, Cup of dust, Enthrall, Haste, Invisibility Sphere, Paralyze, Slow, Vampiric touch.

lvl 4: Blink, Clownish curse, Confusion, Dimension door, Fly, Hallucinatory Terrain. Necrotic Radiation, Phantasmal Killer, Rope Trick, Spiritual Anamnesis, Suggestion, Talking Corpse, Veil.

So as you can see there are a lot of spells I currently like. The goal of this character isn't to really damage but 'mess with reality' So in terms of spells their still a bit of a jack of all trades in that regard.

Hello, So I have a group that is looking to add me to their game. I do not have much details about the group yet but I will give what I can. I have an idea for a character and it sounds like it will fit into the group I just have very minimal knowledge (like an hour of reading the player handbook) of PF2, I'm a 5e player currently with first edition of pathfinder experience.

The group is currently 3 players (I will be the 4th) They have a champion (tank/healer) Wizard (pure nuke) and a ranger (Crossbow snipe). From the sounds of things the Champion pretty much holds the team together in combat. The wizard is still figuring things out. And I have no idea of the ranger's capabilities.

Character Concept: I want a bard that dabbles in necromancy. I do not plan to use undead due to the character having a high amount of respect for the balance of life and death, but that isn't to say my character Won't if things seem dire enough and the use of such a thing will protect life. This is going to be a VERY important focus for the character for me as the character will more often look to put undead to rest seeing them as a imbalance in the cycle of life/death.

Goals for Social: I will most likely become the 'face' for the group Willingly or unwillingly (I am okay with either outcome tbh) I don't plan to push for this role unless I see the group struggling and my character will chime in to 'assist' (and probably take over if it comes to that @.@) the situation and get the ball rolling again. Over all once more I plan to support the group and let them solve things themselves.

Goals for combat: Over all in combat I would like to be there to buff and debuff and help the group with minimal blasting/attacking. For a situation where for whatever reason my character might be alone and under threat (necromancer so lets face it... it's gonna happen even with the BEST of intentions.) For them to manipulate the situation first with words or spells and just walk away. And if that doesn't work well yes I would like some ability to defend myself (again this is the point of undead being a last resort.)

Stat breakdown: feedback on any of this is very welcome :)
Level:7
Race:?
Background:?
Class: Bard
Alignment: LN (Yes oddly enough.)
Deity: I am torn if I even want one to be honest. Most conflict with my characters ideals in small enough ways it kind of ruins the idea. I am open to suggestions/ideas.
Ability scores: Currently none, I'm thinking Cha, Dex, Con, Wis, Int, Str from highest to lowest.
Muse: I have no idea what I want here. Since I'm looking to buff and debuff for combat Maestro seems like a great choice, but the flexibility of Polymath also plays nicely into that too.

And that is as far as I've gotten so far. I have 0 idea on spells and spell slots still as I've not even gotten to looking at those. I do know I want the 10th level bard feat HOUSE OF IMAGINARY WALLS. Because I love to be creative with things that let me 'warp' reality like illusions and that sort of thing The group sounds like they play with a Fun > rules as long as you can make it work. So I can see myself having a good chuckle from time to time with this.

But anyways yes please give thoughts and feedback. I know that Bard probably isn't the most optimal class for a necromancer. But we have the 'roles' of tank, heals, nuke caster and hunter (everything dex i assume) taken. So I'm sort of filling a void the group has while making it as strange and fun for myself and them as I can :P

I've been reading your guide and so far I've very much enjoyed it. I do have one thing I'd probably mention. Combat Expertise in your mentioning of feats is great but you could take Dirty fighting instead. You get positives when you're flanking vs a -1 to hit and -1 combat maneuver checks and possibly a nice +4 if you're already able to do this with improved trip.

Dirty Fighting (Combat)

You can take advantage of a distracted foe.

Benefit(s): When you attempt a combat maneuver check against a foe you are flanking, you can forgo the +2 bonus on your attack roll for flanking to instead have the combat maneuver not provoke an attack of opportunity. If you have a feat or ability that allows you to attempt the combat maneuver without provoking an attack of opportunity, you can instead increase the bonus on your attack roll for flanking to +4 for the combat maneuver check.

Special: This feat counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of the various improved combat maneuver feats, as well as feats that require those improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites.

I'm not any expert at the game by any means. So I've personally taken this feat instead of Combat expertise, so I'm curious if there is any real downside to this vs combat expertise for this class