Hey all,
Recently, I've fallen in love with the Badass Pacifist trope. It, in my opinion, is awesome. However, there are quite a few obstacles to creating such a character in a combat-focused RPG such as Pathfinder. So, I'm asking for your help on this!
The first step, of course, is to get an absurdly high Diplomacy as soon as possible. Since the campaign I'm about to play in is starting at third level, this should be no problem.
Step One: Psychic Searcher Oracle. Fairly obvious, right? I take the Amazing Inspiration talent at third level, and have my feat be Extra Revelation (Tenacious Inspiration) for an average of +5 to my diplomacy through Inspiration. I'll probably take the Nature Mystery, because of my trait selection...
Step Two: Traits. I'll be taking Ease of Faith, Trustworthy, and Patient Optimist for a net +4 for most situations in which I'll be using Diplomacy (i.e., defusing combat situations). My drawback is probably going to be an Attached to a teddy cat (for the kawaii)
Step Three: Half-Elf. Use my Skill Focus for Diplomacy, and my other feat for Persuasive, for a total of +5 to Diplomacy.
What do you guys think? Currently, since I'm starting at third level, I have a +20 to Diplomacy, not counting Inspiration. Any other tricks I can use to boost my Diplomacy, and any other things that should be useful for a Badass Pacifist?
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I don't want to be a buzzkill, but getting a super high diplomacy isn't being a "badass" pacifist. Non-lethal damage monk or something RP'd right could be badass, but strictly getting high diplomacy isn't going to be badass, just annoying.
You can't get through a campaign with diplomacy alone. I guess technically you could smash the diplomacy DC's for a bit but at some point the DM is going to tell you that the Big Bad Evil Guy indeed will not abandon his evil plot because you convinced him.
Odds are the rest of your party will be geared to do damage, so instead of being a badass who dislikes violence but wants to protect his friends, you will come off as an annoying cockblock because your party will be dieing to enter combat but you will keep convincing bad guys to drop their weapons.
I love RP as much as the next guy, but combat is a big part of a lot of Pathfinder campaigns. If you skip it with diplomacy you'll be missing major parts of what makes Pathfinder enjoyable.
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And there's probably someone else in your group who wants to beat up goblins. Going pacifist, with your standard encounter tactic be 'convince the other guys to like me instead of fighting', either you or your party members who want to fight will be dissapointed in every single encounter.
Go with some non-lethal damage, trip, stuff like that.
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And there's probably someone else in your group who wants to beat up goblins. Going pacifist, with your standard encounter tactic be 'convince the other guys to like me instead of fighting', either you or your party members who want to fight will be dissapointed in every single encounter.
Go with some non-lethal damage, trip, stuff like that.
I agree. An interesting concept would be getting your bluff super high instead. Your party will find it a lot more entertaining if you sneak them into the bad guy's castle or lead an infiltration mission instead of just shutting down combat encounters.
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Instead of ruining the fun for the rest of the party, create a character that is magically compelled by a powerful curse not to do any lethal damage. Then make this a character a Conjuration Wizard.
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Sorry to stomp all over your concept though. It's not that I don't like it in principle, it's that it's pretty unfeasible in a team-based game with a combat-focused bent to its rules.
Arachnofiend has a good point.
Sleep, Color Spray, Grease, Glitterdust, Web...
Pop-quiz: is this
a) a list of the best offensive options on the low-level wizard spell list?
or
b) a list of non-lethal spells?
I like the bad ass pacifist trope too, but I prefer the version that is perfectly capable of dishing out damage but chooses not to...
I also agree with the concerns about team dynamics... A diplomacy monster only really works if the whole team is on board (or in a solo campaign).
If you do decide to go with the first type- the caster build is a pretty good option (use non-damaging control spells most of the time but have a nuke or two ready for when there's no other option), or optimize a melee build but use maneuvers as much as possible.
Human racial heratige (Kobold) dragon herald, with the silver toulnge thing.
You can full round diplomacy a few times a day, and one of your bardic preformaces is sanctuary on self, and another is a defensive buff for an ally.
Suddenly, you make a diplomacy check and (insert enemy here) goes from hostile to friendly instantly, no save, no magic.
Elementals, Undead, Animals, Constructs, and anything that is mindless or doesn't speak your language will be immune to your honeyed words, keep that in mind. I kind of dig the concept, but second the idea that you should actually be capable of defending yourself when a situation calls for it
Elementals, Undead, Animals, Constructs, and anything that is mindless or doesn't speak your language will be immune to your honeyed words, keep that in mind. I kind of dig the concept, but second the idea that you should actually be capable of defending yourself when a situation calls for it
I didn't know undead or elementals were immune to diplomacy...
But at 10th level in that class, everyone speaks your lanugage-
Whenever you speak draconic, everyone understands you.
The Idea is good, but I think you wouldn't want to rely on diplomacy.
Firstly, anything that doesn't speak your language(s) will be immune.
Secondly, Even if they do speak your language, there are limits to diplomacy. You may have the best argument in the world, but the guy swinging the axe might just straight up not be listening. Diplomacy is inherently a non-combat skill.
Thirdly, surprise rounds. If your party is surprised, your diplomacy character could be rendered useless before you can speak.
And lastly, that guy swinging the axe who's not listening? He could be one of your team-mates. You could convince the entire court of the elf king that you're really the good guys, only to have your barbarian counterpart take of the princesses head mid-sentence. I'm no expert, but I think seeing a family member decapitated probably give at least a +20 circumstantial bonus to your opponent (maybe even a +21).
If you are intent on playing a non-combat character, make that clear to the GM and the rest of the party, so they can be in on it and gear themselves and the encounters appropriately. Also, while Diplomacy is great, I'm pretty sure the skill normally used to stop people hitting you in the face with a mace would be Intimidate, get some points in that as well.
I'm all for role-playing over meta-game damage-stacking. If this is the character you want to play, go for it, just make sure it isn't cock-blocking the other characters. If you do start to overshadow them, they will just start ignoring you and attack. And if they don't, the GM will start throwing things at you that you can't touch so the rest of the team can do something too (at least that's what a good GM would do). Again, my main point is that you should work with everyone else in your group to make a character that everyone can get behind. Despite what people think, the GM's job isn't to try to foil your overpowered characters, their job is to make an enjoyable story for all the players involved. Anyone who's actively trying to counteract another player's goals/play-style isn't playing the right game.
(sorry, kinda went off on a tangent at the end there, but you get my point, as long as your group is fine with it, go with it. Just don't expect to be able to talk your way out of every encounter)
Edit: Take OFF the princess head
Go Rogue (Or better yet the Unchained variant) Use traits as suggested, swap out Perauasive for Sap Adept. Take Enforcer and maybe Sap Master later. Enjoy being a Badass Technical Pacifist running around whacking people in the face with a sap yelling "Rethink Your Life Choices" as your demoralize attempt. Augment with Intimidate Skill Focus (and Skill Unlocks if unchained), Persuasive, and Circlet of Persuasion.
People might groan when you try to resolve conflict with "Hey, let's not fight" every time, but doing 6d6+11+ with free near-autosuccess demoralize when your foes just won't listen to reason will fix that.
easy and aowsome:
take this build for harrow warden and only deal non-leathal damage.
unless you want to go for TOTAL not even figthing non leathal pacefic, which is kinda very hard to make.
charms, gaes, non injuring, but excellent spells for control, make that your thing.
Thanks for the ideas, everyone! Yes, figuring out how to make it work in combat while not hurting anyone is going to be a challenge, but that Dragon Herald idea sounds interesting. Could somebody link it to the Archives? (PFSRD doesn't like my computer.)
I wouldn't necessarily rain on your parade as much as some people here are doing.
But I will say it is something that should be discussed with the rest of the group. Some major points to consider:
Are they willing to try and bypass many fights with diplomacy and/or bluff?
What happens when your diplomacy fails anyway (you are still sometimes going to roll low in a high DC situation)?
What will you do if ambushed or the fight is already taking place?
What if one of your team mates starts the fight?
What is your stance on tricking the opposition? Illusions, bluff, charm person, etc...
That slides into your stance on spells like web, oppressive boredom, invisibility, sleep, seek thoughts, and color spray?
I think your best bet for a Pacifist Badass is a Combat Medic. Use a heavly armored Life Oracle with a Tower Shield that rushes in the frontline to absorbe hits and keeps healing the party. Shield Others is going to be you mainstay spell. Ask your DM to keep track of negative HP and heal your enemy once you have beaten them. Or if it's too dangerous, just stabilize them so they can recover after you have done it.
Not only do you need high diplomacy, you need fast diplomacy.
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The reason people are raining on your parade is because skill checks don't involve the rest of the party.
"Shut up, the Face is talking", "Stand back, the Trap Monkey is working", "Wait here, the Scout is sneaking".
Whereas in combat, everyone gets a turn to do their thing. It might be more fun in a system where diplomacy is more fleshed out and everyone is expected to participate in it (as Pathfinder assumes everyone will participate in combat).
Arachnofiend has a good point.
Sleep, Color Spray, Grease, Glitterdust, Web...
Pop-quiz: is this
a) a list of the best offensive options on the low-level wizard spell list?or
b) a list of non-lethal spells?
Get the Merciful Spells metamagic feat and you can cast all the damage spells you like with it and have their damage be nonlethal. And if you need to really hurt someone, just don't use it.
There's also the Peacemaker feat from Champions of Purity for a +2 to the DC of any spell that forces aggressive and violent beings to become more peaceable. Actually that book has several ideas that can be used by a character trying to be more pacific than normal.
Go Rogue (Or better yet the Unchained variant) Use traits as suggested, swap out Perauasive for Sap Adept. Take Enforcer and maybe Sap Master later. Enjoy being a Badass Technical Pacifist running around whacking people in the face with a sap yelling "Rethink Your Life Choices" as your demoralize attempt. Augment with Intimidate Skill Focus (and Skill Unlocks if unchained), Persuasive, and Circlet of Persuasion.
People might groan when you try to resolve conflict with "Hey, let's not fight" every time, but doing 6d6+11+ with free near-autosuccess demoralize when your foes just won't listen to reason will fix that.
For this route, what about combining the Bludgeoner feat (allowing you to do nonlethal damage with any bludgeoning weapon) with the Cudgeler style feat chain and the Skulking Slayer archetype for half-orcs? Then you could use a greatclub to wallop people for ridiculous amounts of nonlethal damage, provided you remember to charge.
Reach cleric(evangalist) using trip maneuvre ( and pehaps sunder if it is ok to break there weapon or disarm if that is ok). You will have buff, OoC utility and combat precence.
Use a longspear and since you never actually use the tip refluff it as a long staff.
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Sorry to stomp all over your concept though. It's not that I don't like it in principle, it's that it's pretty unfeasible in a team-based game with a combat-focused bent to its rules.
Yes and no.
I recently played in a campaign with a witch who refused to harm any creature or being and I put a lot of effort into having a high bluff score. With a gnome witch, my goal was to cause mischief by any means possible, but not actually harm anyone directly.For example, I took the Spell Hex feat, and used Beguiling gift as my hex. My character was also very big into knitting, so She would spend her free time knitting mittens, and then beguiling gift them to our enemies to try and "make friends with them." This caused them to put away their weapons, take off their gloves or gauntlets, if they had any, and force them to wear my mittens. Rogues love unarmed enemies, and it gave a few rounds where the enemy couldn't attack. It made game play enjoyable for my friends and was fun for myself to role play.
With a witch much of your game play is already focused on hexing.
Force your enemies to sleep or debuff them to the bone. Or focus on aiding your allies by buffing them up. Plus, the spells you prep for the day don't have to be Damaging. Take a hefty amount of utility spells. Ill Omen is always nice.
Granted, it's not a complete pacifist, since your actions might cause harm to your enemies later, but it gets close.
I like the maneuver master monk archetype.
You can trade attacks for maneuvers and tack an extra maneuver on at the end. I am fond of action disruption at this point:
Disarm, trip, dirty trick and grappled is a great way to frustrate opponents into going away.
Of those dirty trick and grappling are probably your overall best choices.
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For bad-ass pacifist - I'd just go with Blade of Mercy trait & Enforcer feat and max out intimidate. (hence bad-ass) Also - don't be constrained against the things that don't take non-lethal. (It doesn't really count as killing when they're undead/construct etc)
This is exactly what I'm doing for my "not quite pacifist but doesn't like to kill humanoids" character. Blade of Mercy until I can get a Merciful sword, Enforcer, and the Dazzling Display line. On a Barbarian, with an adamantine Nodachi. Against humanoids? Smack them with 4 foot long sword with a persistent Nerf Field around it and knock them out. Against others? Drop the nerf field, and get my "smite" (rage) on.
Here's the thing, D&D/Pathfinder, was originally built to not just be about slaying dragons and gaining epic treasure for your avatar, it's about living another life. It's about making another identity, living vicariously through a new lens and combating a world to make your way in it.
Too many players think all there is to these worlds is combat.
Major media is mostly to blame for this and there's nothing like a good boss fight, most certainly, but that is not what playing this game is about. There's no "beating" this game or seeing how much higher you can make your numbers compared to everyone else. It's a social gathering to have fun and experience something fantastical.
I would honestly love to have more pacifist characters in campaigns I've been in and one's I've DMed. It makes interactions between characters much more meaningful and fruitful. It makes the world we're participating organic, not filled with umberhulks and die-hard powerful magic users. When you really think about it, that's not realistic at all and the game shouldn't be about killing the biggest and baddest thing you can find. What becomes of the game after that?
If you want to make a character that lacks combat skills, but is the person that ensures everything else, from lodging to getting your job contacts, to good food and good discounts or leads on beneficial equipment, go right ahead. I've known several people who play things like Bards solely to be the manager of the group and only minorly contribute to combat, if anything.
If players have a problem with a pacifist in the party, quite frankly, they are not thinking about playing Pathfinder/D&D for what it is. They want to play another experience of World of Warcraft where they want to crunch numbers and crunch baddies and that's it. Some of it is understandable and there is plenty of that to do in the world, but it's not the ONLY thing to do. Both the players and the DM should be able to compensate and make the avenue accessible.
After all, this is the pure RPG experience. It means, Role-Playing Game, not Hacker-Slasher-Game. If the people playing or the DM rolling it up doesn't like a perfectly fine and realistic route that should exist in their world, it is not your fault, it is their own for not being open enough to the concept.
And to my final point, I play a Mythic Drow Monk who has the Vows of Peace and Truth. Once those two turns are up, he easily becomes as damage heavy as our Barbarian in the party, only nonlethal to the beings that can be expected to be coerced and I just got him to the point where I can start Intimidating the hell out of everything. Dazzling Display during total defense maneuvers is the best way for me to express that, "I do not want to hurt anyone, but if you make me, than be prepared for some whoop ass!"
