Hi everyone,
I play a level 8 Half-Orc paladin of Sarenrae in PFS (Silver Crusade). For a little while now I've been concerned that my PC doesn't do as much damage as other PCs of the same level. I'd love to have some advice / help to change this.
Here is some specific information about my PC:
1.) Str 16, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 18.
2.) AC 27, 84 hp.
3.) Primary weapon = +1 flaming scimitar (2d6+4 damage). The choice of scimitar is probably the main cause of my low damage output (a d6 damage weapon vs. a longsword, greatsword, etc.). I've considered changing it many times, but my PC purposely uses it because it's Sarenrae's favored weapon and (as backstory / roleplaying info) he considers himself forever indebted to her for saving his life. So he's pretty committed to this weapon choice.
4.) Applicable powers and abilities: Smite Evil (definitely kicks up the damage output, but limited uses); Channel Positive Energy (see feats); Divine Bond (weapon; also kicks up damage, but is even more limited than Smite Evil).
5.) Feats: Toughness; Extra Lay on Hands; Channel Smite (definitely helps with damage output, but relies on a limited resource [Channel Pos. En.]); Ironhide.
I think what I'm looking for is a way to increase my PC's average damage output without relying on a limited resource like Smite Evil or Channel Positive Energy.
Thanks!
Jason
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Two hand power attack.
Power Attack is a good start. Also, you can wield a scimitar in 2-hands to get 1.5 X str and extra power attack damage. At 16 str that might not be worth giving up a shield for, but if get your str enhanced to 18 it becomes a very attractive option.
Scimitar will put you at about 3.5 points per hit less than a more optimal greatsword, but that isn't the end of the world.
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As others have said, two-hand your scimitar and get Power Attack.
Later, get improved critical to increase the already great threat range of the scimitar.
Carry the shield, drop it as a free action as needed.
Your character concept is fine and a viable combatant.
Dropping a shield is a move action.
Interesting; Never noticed that before.
Use a buckler then and just eat the -1 to attack when you two-hand the scimitar. It's bonus is equivalent to a light shield anyway, and you can enhance it up just the same. Probably should be doing this anyway if you are casting any spells with somatic components.
Did this on my Sorc/Barb/DD with a longsword and buckler. AC when you need it, damage when you don't.
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What everyone else said. Two-hand it, grab power attack. At this level, you have good to-hit, and power attack two-handed will add an extra +9 damage. That's a good chunk right there.
See if you can retrain toughness. From a logistical perspective, it is strictly worse than Extra LoH for a paladin (the HP from the extra LoH is greater than the HP you get from Toughness).
Quick draw shield.
Also use a str bow and smite from a distance.
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Everythig they said plus focus more on strengh than charisma.
Weapon choice is not the reason. You focused on Charisma instead of Strength, the primary damage stat. By picking a scimitar over a longsword, you only lost an average of 1 damage. If you had Power Attack and two-handed your scimitar, you'd deal an extra +10 damage on each attack.
I recommend retraining Toughness and Extra Lay on Hands for Power Attack and Cleave. Pick up a belt of mighty strength to boost your Strength and two-hand your scimitar to gain a 1/2 Strength bonus to your damage rolls.
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The main problem is you focused on Cha over Str in your build. Not a good or bad just a choice. That means your more effective with smite and less effective with out it.
You can increases your damage by taking power attack. However I don't see this as a good way to increases your over all damage. As it will lower your to hit. With a low Str that will make hitting harder then normal for a combat character of your level. Getting improved Critical Scimitar will go a long way to increasing your damage with out affecting your to hit. You can get that at level 9.
Next getting Stat boost items and focus on getting a +2 or 4 str belt. The higher the better and let your Cha item be the second most important thing to get.
+1 Flaming Scimitar. Do you have bonded weapon, bonded mount, or have a archetype that dose not have either. If you have bonded weapon focus on getting your enchantment bonus to +3 to help over come DR. If you don't have bonded weapon. Focus on getting the holy enchantment bonus to over come DR. This will get you past DR with out needing to smite every thing.
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Yeah - by level 8 you should have a base strength of 20, and a belt to boost it up to 22. In addition, pure enchantment is generally more valuable than extra abilities, especially with a high crit weapon. (flaming etc)
If you want the option to two-hand the scimitar - get a quickdraw light shield. A light shield isn't a bad option for a pali anyway, as while it lowers your AC by a point, it makes casting spells easier as you can shift the scimitar to your shield hand as a free action.
Weapon Focus is a great feat. It won't up your damage directly, but if you hit more often, you'll do less damage.
Finally - consider getting Improved Critical. With a scimitar it's great, and at that point the scimitar is considerably superior to a longsword.
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First mistake I see is going flaming over keen. Yes flaming is +1d6 damage, but so it a crit. Also, a possible crit is always a hit (which means you can take power attack and tank the to hit while still hitting). If you have bonded to your weapon, you can get flaming through there, or frost or shocking depending on what is needed.
As others have said, scimitar is not a terrible choice, but for the most damage you have to 2hand with power attack.
A Higher strength would also be a big boon. Not just for your to hit but in damage (2 handing a scimitar at 16 str is +4, 2 handing at 22 is +9), power attack for another +9 on top.
Sorry, but one thing you said is a common misconception. A possible crit is not an automatic hit. A natural 20 is an automatic hit, but if a critical threat would miss that isn't a natural 20, it still misses.
Radiant Charge.
Sometimes all you need is one big hit.
This is all great advice - thanks everyone! Exactly what I was looking for. I'm going to take some time to digest it a little more tomorrow (had a really busy day today).
This PC is my first in PFS, so there was definitely a learning curve involved, which influenced some of my early decisions.
If anyone has more ideas, please share them!
Thanks,
Jason
Yeah... Channel Smite probably adds less damage than Power Attack, and the low strength doesn't help. Aside from that, you've taken almost entirely defensive feats and stats (Ironhide is generally just Dodge with different uses, and Extra Lay on Hands certainly isn't an offensive feat). Get improved crit range as soon as possible, and possibly vital strike if you find yourself moving before attacking each round.
I don't think vital strike is worth a feat. Mathmatically furious focus should add more to DPR.
It's pretty size-dependent. If you can get large and/or use, say, an Elven Curved Blade (it's described as a large katana), Improved Vital Strike at level 11 can be a much bigger power boost.
There are a couple of things that is holding back your damage. As multiple people have said is that you prioritized CHA over STR. Two is you are using a one handed weapon. You also focused too much on using your paladin abilities which as you have stated are limited. You are also focused too much on defense instead of offense. Toughness only gives you a few extra HP, Iron Hide is only +1 AC. As a paladin the last thing you should be worried about is taking damage.
Paladins have the only decent in combat healing but you are using up yours to try and boost your damage. Save your lay on hands for healing yourself as a swift action. This is the most effective use of your lay on hands.
Use a two handed weapon with a high critical range. The falchion is basically a two handed scimitar so that would probably work. If you insist on using the scimitar always use it two handed. Sell the shield and use the money for something else. As Ascalaphus said improved critical works very well with bless weapon.
So what I would recommend would be to retrain channel smite, Iron Hide, and toughness. Change them to power attack, improved critical and ferocious resolve. Also pick up a belt to increase your STR.
Ferocious resolve is a half orc feat that gives you the ferocity of an orc so you can continue fighting even at negative HP. For a paladin this ability is incredibly useful. This is not limited to once a day and combined with lay on hands gives you incredible survivability. They literally have to kill you to take you down.
Another thing to consider is that sometimes it is better for a paladin to take some damage. This seems kind of strange but it can help the rest of the party. If you seem to be taking damage your opponents will concentrate on you. You can use your lay on hands to heal yourself, so in reality you are not really taking damage. This means the rest of the party is not taking those attacks. This works best against a lot of low threats not against the BBEG. Against the BBEG you are smiting evil and he is going to want to take you down.
Er... it's almost certainly worth buying a Keen weapon and saving that extra feat for something more useful like Furious Focus, since Paladins are by far the most feat-starved martial class in the game. Other than that, good advice.
Er... it's almost certainly worth buying a Keen weapon and saving that extra feat for something more useful like Furious Focus, since Paladins are by far the most feat-starved martial class in the game. Other than that, good advice.
Keen does not stack with bless weapon, but improved critical does. This means that when attacking an evil target the paladin with bless weapon automatically confirms a critical if the original roll was 15 or better, and it hit.
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Er... it's almost certainly worth buying a Keen weapon and saving that extra feat for something more useful like Furious Focus, since Paladins are by far the most feat-starved martial class in the game. Other than that, good advice.Keen does not stack with bless weapon, but improved critical does. This means that when attacking an evil target the paladin with bless weapon automatically confirms a critical on a 15 or better.
This.
Besides - +1 to hit & damage would be a pretty awesome feat - and that's what you're replacing with keen. (until very high levels - not relevant in PFS)
Er... it's almost certainly worth buying a Keen weapon and saving that extra feat for something more useful like Furious Focus, since Paladins are by far the most feat-starved martial class in the game. Other than that, good advice.Keen does not stack with bless weapon, but improved critical does. This means that when attacking an evil target the paladin with bless weapon automatically confirms a critical if the original roll was 15 or better, and it hit.
Yeah... but Bless Weapon also takes a round to cast, making it less and less useful at later levels—if you can pick up a rod of Quicken or retrain Improved Critical once you're rich enough to pick up a +6 sword, it makes sense, but something like Furious Focus (+3 to the first hit every round) might be more valuable if pure damage output is the concern.
I just dumped Power Attack with my Pally about to head into the last chapter of RotRL. I was hardly ever using it because of missing, though I am more stat'd for support and damage soaking. Be careful with Power Attack. I switched to improved critical instead.
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I just dumped Power Attack with my Pally about to head into the last chapter of RotRL. I was hardly ever using it because of missing, though I am more stat'd for support and damage soaking. Be careful with Power Attack. I switched to improved critical instead.
Well - it's great if you're two-handing, but it's of much more limited use if you're using a shield.
My PFS paladin of Sarenrae (now retired) used a bastard sword (+2 Holy Adamantine) in conjunction with a quickdraw light steel shield. He also had the Quickdraw feat to maximize the use of the shield, being able to equip and unequip it as free actions.
My attack rotation usually went like this:
Move (if necessary)
Free action: stow shield
Free action: wield sword two-handed
Attack (two-handed power attack)
Free action: wield sword one-handed
Free action: equip shield
I was a strength build focused on maximizing DPR. It was a little dependent on fighting evil creatures but the damage spike for when I was became huge.
At 11th level, assuming I got a full attack rotation for the turn, non-evil targets would be receiving roughly 60 DPR a turn. Evil targets would see somewhere around 100. If I crit, these numbers spiked considerably by roughly 30-50%. If the target was subject to my smite. I could see damage close to 200 at times.
Anyway, if you want damage, wield your weapon two-handed and use power attack. If you want to still be tanky, keeping your AC relatively high after your rotation, use the quickdraw light steel shield. Or invest in UMD and a wand of shield to use at the start of your fight. You'll have an AC in the low end of the 30s. If you smite, it goes even higher against the target.
Cleave is a "meh" feat to me as it's terribly dependent on having the right conditions. I'd rather focus on making sure I'm in the mix of it, even giving up flanks if necessary. That way I can full attack and quick burn down targets. Any left over attacks just went to the next target standing.
I actually had Furious Focus on my build, but found myself wishing I had focused on Weapon Focus feats instead. The long run of trying to make sure my first attack hit (with almost never missed at lvl 11 without Furious Focus's help) wasn't a good tradeoff for the flat +1 to hit across the board. It was abit of work trying to get my interative attacks to land.
Channel Smite could be decent if you have the LoH to burn for it, but it's expensive. I liked the archtype of Oath of Vengeance better, allowing you to trade LoH uses for more Smite Evil per day. As far as PFS was concerned, that basically meant something was being smote every combat. In your case Jason, I don't think I would retrain it out of your build. You need it to help make up for the moments you need for that extra damage spike to make up for your lack of strength.
I've seen arguments that the Quickdraw Shield requires Improved Shield Bash to maintain AC after you've attacked with that hand.
Meanwhile, Shield-bashing 2WF is always an option for shield users (and can get very high-damage), but it's probably too feat intensive for most paladins.
Scimitar is a fine weapon, using it two handed will give you plenty of damage potential.
You have so much HP and Lay on Hands that turtling by carrying a shield is actually dangerous if the enemies decide they can't hit you and don't like being blasted by other enemies. Basic strategy is to reduce the enemy numbers as fast as possible, and if hitting you isn't, they will move on.
Improved critical, or weapon bond for a keen weapon will widely improve your DPR potential.
Remember to use the spell Litany of Righteousness, to double up on damage.
Yeah... but Bless Weapon also takes a round to cast, making it less and less useful at later levels—if you can pick up a rod of Quicken or retrain Improved Critical once you're rich enough to pick up a +6 sword, it makes sense, but something like Furious Focus (+3 to the first hit every round) might be more valuable if pure damage output is the concern.Er... it's almost certainly worth buying a Keen weapon and saving that extra feat for something more useful like Furious Focus, since Paladins are by far the most feat-starved martial class in the game. Other than that, good advice.Keen does not stack with bless weapon, but improved critical does. This means that when attacking an evil target the paladin with bless weapon automatically confirms a critical if the original roll was 15 or better, and it hit.
Min/level spells can be pre-cast at higher levels anyway. Metamagic rod of Extend that bad boy.
Or just grab a bunch of 50 gp potions of it.
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My attack rotation usually went like this:
Move (if necessary)
Free action: stow shield
Free action: wield sword two-handed
Attack (two-handed power attack)
Free action: wield sword one-handed
Free action: equip shield
There are at least 2 threads where people argue over whether something slightly less controversial is legal (with a force shield ring). I'm shocked that you never had PFS table variation on the legality.
And both sides of the argument admitted that the GM would be well within their rights to disallow since they can limit free actions. (I would have.)
Yeah... but Bless Weapon also takes a round to cast, making it less and less useful at later levels—if you can pick up a rod of Quicken or retrain Improved Critical once you're rich enough to pick up a +6 sword, it makes sense, but something like Furious Focus (+3 to the first hit every round) might be more valuable if pure damage output is the concern.Er... it's almost certainly worth buying a Keen weapon and saving that extra feat for something more useful like Furious Focus, since Paladins are by far the most feat-starved martial class in the game. Other than that, good advice.Keen does not stack with bless weapon, but improved critical does. This means that when attacking an evil target the paladin with bless weapon automatically confirms a critical if the original roll was 15 or better, and it hit.Min/level spells can be pre-cast at higher levels anyway. Metamagic rod of Extend that bad boy.
Or just grab a bunch of 50 gp potions of it.
A wand of bless weapons should be the second wand a paladin purchases.
The wand would also take a full round to cast though, and it's quite an expensive lump sum. 50 gp here or there isn't as hard hitting at once, especially if your GM is very forgiving with consumable expenses.
To do more damage, I suggest hitting your target more often. :)
Tell that to my dice! :)
What gear do you have? Do you have access to retraining through Ultimate Campaign? (If not, a PDF is $10.) Retrain Ironhide, Toughness, and Channel Smite to Power attack, Furious Focus, and either improved critical or, if you're still having trouble hitting, Weapon focus (Scimitar).
I don't think Bless Weapon is such a game-changing spell that you should plan your equipment and feats around it.
If you have ultimate Combat, consider retraining into the Oath of Vengeance paladin archetype. It lets you sacrifice lay-on-hands to gain additional smites per day, and gives up channel energy, which isn't really that useful for a paladin anyway.
1) Change your scimitar to a sword +2. Have it 'flaming' as it gives off magical light, but not actually fire.
You are melee. You need to hit and to do damage. Nothing is more important.
2) Up your Strength.
I know, you want the Charisma for heals and saves, I understand. And yes, when you're smiting it works.
But Strength works all the other times, all the time. You need a higher Str score.
Buy a Str booster. It should be your biggest Stat booster.
3) A sword and shield user MUST be flexible.
If you need high AC, you have it. Use a Quick Draw shield. In all other circumstances, you should be two handing it.
You need Power Attack. It's that simple. it's the main way a Melee does damage. It turns that extra Smite TH into +9 damage per swing.
4) Do note that Divine Bond can grant flaming, and the enhancement bonus stacks with the one on your sword, up to +5 (+10 total). So, if you can't Smite, you should be using Divine Bond. SO if you want to smite with the burning blade of Saranrae, you can at will. But leave your weapon +2.
And remember that the Bond works on your bow, your lance, your fist...it is NOT limited to your sword. Smitadins are a thing with bows, you know.
5) If you're using a scimitar, you need to take Improved Critical to take advantage of the threat range. Put it on the list. But Power Attack comes first.
6) I think there's a cheap ioun stone that grants you a +1 Competence bonus to hit.
7) I think there's another stone that grants a weapon proficiency. If you can grab Katana, that's just a bastard sword version of the scimitar, and lets you switch between one and 2hands with a d8 instead of a d6.
==Aelryinth
Bless weapon is probably the best 1st level paladin spell out there. It helps in two circumstances the first and most obvious is when fighting the BBEG. Combined with smite evil and other damage it is incredibly useful. The second is when you are facing a lot of lower level threats. Since smite evil only works on a single target and is limited in uses per day you don’t waste your smites on lower level threats. Bless weapon on the other hand works very well in this circumstance. A paladin with an 18-20 (15-20 with improved critical) does very well against hordes of undead or other evil creatures.
Also if the paladin has divine bond weapon he can add flaming burst which take advantage of the improved critical range. The original poster states he is using a flaming scimitar. I understand that this is because of his deity and he is probably not likely to change it but if he wanted to do more damage he would change that out to another ability and use weapon bond to get flaming burst. A merciful scimitar would actually fit his deity. This way when he is not trying to kill someone his damage would higher. He could even still use all the other methods to increase damage while doing non-lethal damage. A merciful flaming burst scimitar with improved critical, bless weapon, power attack, and smite evil would allow him to capture just about anyone.
Bless weapon is probably the best 1st level paladin spell out there.
Possibly at low levels. Once you have a magical weapon and definitely after Aura of Faith, all you are getting is the auto-confirm.
I have used Hero's Defiance far more often than any other 1st level spell. Though, I am primarily the damage soaker and not the damage dealer of the party ... except when a dragon or undead foe comes up (which is pleasantly often in RotRL).
Also, having yet another SA to perform at the start of combat starts to get tedious. :)
Many arguments about the right way to play a paladin. I hear the armor plus that big steel shield makes the bad guys focus on your friends and picking you off last.
To the contrary the shield ups my AC by 2....
If I take antagonize and focus on the diplomacy use......they might as well attack me anyway!
Lots of good advice here. Furious Focus and Power Attack are great suggestions.
One quick thought: Paladins are awesome damage soakers - and imo that is so valuable that it mitigates the need to deal gobs and gobs of damage. So, don't sell out on damage at the expense of screwing up your defensive balance.
Bless weapon is probably the best 1st level paladin spell out there.Possibly at low levels. Once you have a magical weapon and definitely after Aura of Faith, all you are getting is the auto-confirm.
Yeah man, all you're getting is (half of) the FIGHTER'S CAPSTONE as a 1st level spell.
No big.
Hero’s defiance is also a good spell, but it depends on the paladin. For a half orc paladin with ferocious resolve feat it does not have quite as much benefits. Hero’s defiance is probably a better spell to memorize, but for wands and potions bless weapon is great. A wand of bless weapon only cost 750 G.P. which works out to 15 gold per use. This is good for when you know you are going to be in combat soon and have time to prepare. It lasts a full minute so should last for the majority of combats. Also note that this works best when combined with a weapon that has a high critical range and improved critical.
With an 18-20 critical range weapon and improved critical the paladin get a lot of critical hits. More often than not the paladin should be able to hit on a 15 or better at least on the first attack. This means that approximately 25% of his hits vs an evil target will be critical hits. If he needs higher to hit than 15 to even hit on the first attack he should probably be looking to fix that before working on damage. Even if he requires higher than a 15 to hit this still means that every hit is a critical hit, in which case it is even more important.
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Lots of good advice here. Furious Focus and Power Attack are great suggestions.
One quick thought: Paladins are awesome damage soakers - and imo that is so valuable that it mitigates the need to deal gobs and gobs of damage. So, don't sell out on damage at the expense of screwing up your defensive balance.
It mitigates nothing. You need to deal a respectable amount of damage to be a threat. If you're just a damage soaker with a limp wrist, the enemy is likely just going to move along.
Now, if you can give as good as you get, that's when you start seeing how Paladins are one of the strongest martial classes.
Lots of good advice here. Furious Focus and Power Attack are great suggestions.
One quick thought: Paladins are awesome damage soakers - and imo that is so valuable that it mitigates the need to deal gobs and gobs of damage. So, don't sell out on damage at the expense of screwing up your defensive balance.
It mitigates nothing. You need to deal a respectable amount of damage to be a threat. If you're just a damage soaker with a limp wrist, the enemy is likely just going to move along.
Now, if you can give as good as you get, that's when you start seeing how Paladins are one of the strongest martial classes.
This is correct.
A while back I had a player who made a character with a very high AC, but he was not a threat offensively. The enemies after realizing he struggled to hit, and/or not being worried about the small amount of damage he did, just moved on to those annoying casters.
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Yeah - while you shouldn't sacrifice everything for DPR! - your battlefield presence needs to be respectable. Perhaps not damage - but if not damage then debuffs/manuvers etc. Enough so that they'll regret ignoring you.
As mentioned above - Antagonize can help you not be ignored - but it's mostly useful against single beefy things, not against groups.
I will say - on the subject of tanking - I miss the 3.5 Towershield. It was one of the few things that I REALLY wish that they hadn't changed.