With an 18-20 critical range weapon and improved critical the paladin get a lot of critical hits. More often than not the paladin should be able to hit on a 15 or better at least on the first attack. This means that approximately 25% of his hits vs an evil target will be critical hits. If he needs higher to hit than 15 to even hit on the first attack he should probably be looking to fix that before working on damage. Even if he requires higher than a 15 to hit this still means that every hit is a critical hit, in which case it is even more important.
Good points. And, in my haste I was only really thinking about the first attack. Bless weapon's auto-confirm is great for threats you get on the follow up attacks.
Lots of good advice here. Furious Focus and Power Attack are great suggestions.
One quick thought: Paladins are awesome damage soakers - and imo that is so valuable that it mitigates the need to deal gobs and gobs of damage. So, don't sell out on damage at the expense of screwing up your defensive balance.
It mitigates nothing. You need to deal a respectable amount of damage to be a threat. If you're just a damage soaker with a limp wrist, the enemy is likely just going to move along.
Now, if you can give as good as you get, that's when you start seeing how Paladins are one of the strongest martial classes.
This is correct.
A while back I had a player who made a character with a very high AC, but he was not a threat offensively. The enemies after realizing he struggled to hit, and/or not being worried about the small amount of damage he just moved on to those annoying casters.
Diminishing returns.
Diminishing returns.Lots of good advice here. Furious Focus and Power Attack are great suggestions.
One quick thought: Paladins are awesome damage soakers - and imo that is so valuable that it mitigates the need to deal gobs and gobs of damage. So, don't sell out on damage at the expense of screwing up your defensive balance.
It mitigates nothing. You need to deal a respectable amount of damage to be a threat. If you're just a damage soaker with a limp wrist, the enemy is likely just going to move along.
Now, if you can give as good as you get, that's when you start seeing how Paladins are one of the strongest martial classes.
This is correct.
A while back I had a player who made a character with a very high AC, but he was not a threat offensively. The enemies after realizing he struggled to hit, and/or not being worried about the small amount of damage he just moved on to those annoying casters.
Is easier hit on defense than offense. Until you hit the point here you kill everything in one round, investing in offense is still worthwhile.
Investing in defense hits that wall a little sooner. Besides the obvious mathematical limit (your defenses can only ever be 95% perfect), you hit a sort of "f+@! it adjustment" in monster attitudes at around 80%.
Assuming you have focused entirely on defense, when it gets to the point where you save on a 4 and an enemy needs a 16 to hit you, monsters are likely to just go "F~+% it". That place is easy to hit on a Paladin.
The offense limit is conversely harder to get to, and makes you a target that cannot be ignored. To do so is death.
You're generally better off doing something like a 60/40 split in resources devoted to offense/defense, or even 70/30 than something like 90/10 or 10/90.
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Is easier hit on defense than offense. Until you hit the point here you kill everything in one round, investing in offense is still worthwhile.Investing in defense hits that wall a little sooner. Besides the obvious mathematical limit (your defenses can only ever be 95% perfect), you hit a sort of "f$$@ it adjustment" in monster attitudes at around 80%.
Assuming you have focused entirely on defense, when it gets to the point where you save on a 4 and an enemy needs a 16 to hit you, monsters are likely to just go "F+%% it". That place is easy to hit on a Paladin.
The offense limit is conversely harder to get to, and makes you a target that cannot be ignored. To do so is death.
You're generally better off doing something like a 60/40 split in resources devoted to offense/defense, or even 70/30 than something like 90/10 or 10/90.
In part - where that point is varies with the rest of your group. As soon as you have one glass cannon on your team - everyone has to shift to higher offense to kill stuff fast enough so that said glass cannon doesn't die horribly.
On the other hand - if the entire group is more defensively focused so that no one is an easy target, you can afford to take an extra round or two to kill your opponents. (I actually think that this is the more potent group if you can convince everyone to do so. It makes it far less likely that anyone will die to an unlucky roll or three.)
In PFS you generally want to split the difference. Too defensive and a glass cannon buddy might explode. Too offensive and you might run with a group that can't kill stuff fast enough and you die horribly. Though in PFS - you generally have leeway since - outside of a couple modules - it's generally pretty easy.
Err... a good tank arranges the battlefield so that enemies only CAN hit him, and not his allies. This generally requires feats to pull off, which a Paladin doesn't get—making them worse at tanking than a lot of other martial classes (but quite powerful offensively against the right enemies).
There is maybe one Feat line (the Bodyguard line...even Combat Patrol doesn't have true lockdown capability) that makes that even sort of possible, so it's not really worth mentioning.
Yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing a class that can actually tank like that.
Like, someone who can stop incorporeal/flying/climb speed/burrow speed/teleporting/etc. enemies just run circles around him.
Oh—do you mean an Enlarged Tetori Monk, an Archer Fighter, or anyone with Enlarge Person, a reach Weapon, and Quick Dirty Trick? Because all of these can trivially shut down any of those advantages by level 13, if you're in a rare campaign where more than one or two of them are actually a threat. (Or in a Mythic campaign, pretty much any Tier 3 Guardian)
Incorporeal: If you're actually worried about incorporeal beasties getting you (no campaign I've ever played), Ghost Touch Armor Spikes and a Swordmaster's Flair will do the trick for about 10k gp. A Gnome Staff Magus can also trivially shut down incorporeal enemies, and any Improved Snap Shot user who doesn't have a few Ghost Touch Tanglefoot Arrows is doing something very wrong. A Tetori automatically gets Ghost Touch, and a second free grapple against every ghost he punches.
Flying: Combat Patrol + High Jump class feature, or Improved Snap Shot, or just a Reach Weapon, will allow you to AoO most flying enemies before they can reach your allies, assuming they aren't Huge. Dazing Assault, Tetori Monk, Beastmorph Alchemist or Archer Fighter can all turn that AoO into a movement-ending grapple, while Combat Patrol + Enlarge + Stand Still/Quick Dirty Trick/Binding Ki Throw/Savage Dirty Trick on just about anyone also does the job extremely well.
Climb Speed: Just, no. Walls are still threatened by your reach, and if you trip someone while they're climbing, they fall extra hard. The rules on dropping down on enemies describe the attack as an effective charge, meaning you can still set Brace weapons against it for massive damage.
If you really want to have fun, grab Slippers of Spider Climb, stand on the ceiling of the dungeon while stealthed, and scare the heck out of enemies when you AoO them with your bow/spear as they run down the hall.
Burrow Speed: Haha, what? You still threaten ground squares, and unless the thing can attack from the square directly beneath you (which pretty much requires tremorsense), when it pops out of the ground into a square on your horizontal level (since otherwise you have full cover), you get an AoO against it, which is again a Trip/Grab/Binding Throw/Quick Dirty Trick of your choice.
Teleporting: Unless it's an Arcanist, it probably provokes an AoO when it uses Dimension Door or a similar SLA. So, yeah, your wizard gets hit once. Then he withdraws, the creature's in your reach, and if it tries to teleport again you AoO Grab/Binding Throw/Quick Dirty Trick the thing. If it's a spell-based effect, sticking them with a single Silence arrow should do the trick. If you're a Tetori, what's teleportation?
There is maybe one Feat line (the Bodyguard line...even Combat Patrol doesn't have true lockdown capability) that makes that even sort of possible, so it's not really worth mentioning.
How about Improved Snap Shot, Dazing Assault, Stand Still, Quick Dirty Trick, Final Embrace, Shield Slam, Punishing Kick, Stunning Fist, or Binding Throw? Any 2 or 3 of these is enough to tank 90% of the enemies you'll face in a typical game.
...Except for the part where none of those things shut down ANYONE, sure.
You have a habit of assuming "best case scenario" is equivalent to "this is practical". You even mentioning Stunning Fist is a really good indicator of that.
The closest you get is Dazing Assault. Exactly how does being able to make AoOs with a ranged weapon "shut down" enemies? How does being able to blind, dazzle, shake, entangle (this one being difficult to pull off, since all must be justified with an action), or sicken an enemy once per round "shutting them down"? Stand Still is another one that sounds better than it is (it's a straight CMB check, so none of the options for increasing a specific combat maneuver make it better), though it's at least worthwhile in conjunction with Combat Patrol, which is more than can be said for the majority of that.
And even if these things DO shut down ONE GUY (which is all most of them are capable of, in the best case), how does that make a great tank, exactly?
Nothing forces them to engage you. Unless all your fights take place in a 15 ft. wide corridor and nobody has ranged weaponry, you still have to go to them. And they can still go right around you.
And none of that even comes close to stopping teleporters or incorporeals from getting around you.
The "Combat Patrol plus High Jump" thing is especially hilarious. Good job, you can hit one flying guy that's within your reach once per round if and only if you have 5 levels of Monk (who are incredibly bad on AoOs).
@Rynjin, we've had this argument before, and I thought what we took away from that is that I don't know how to play offensive Paladins/Barbarians and you don't know how to play defensive Fighters/Monks.
Being able to blind an enemy once per round, with no save, is pretty huge, since everything that deals damage or teleports requires line of sight, and therefore I'd absolutely call it effective tanking.
Stand Still is much better than it sounds—if you hit them with it, it stops all movement, period, and they're stuck in place. Since AoOs are made with full BAB, you've got a pretty good chance of overcoming CMD on everything but the largest enemies you'll fight without feat bonuses. BUT if you're an Order of the Shield Cavalier who uses guns, your Stand Still is a full BAB Touch Attack—with 15' ranged AoOs and Combat Reflexes, you can guaranteed-freeze anything that approaches you on anything but a natural one.
Tanking is about protecting your team. If you can cover the wizard in a 15' impenetrable shield, you're an effective tank. If your Ranger/Barbarian/Slayer can kill one enemy a round, and then you run after him and cover him from the rest of the mooks charging or retaliating, you're an effective tank.
I don't believe there's a limit to one acrobatics check per round; so you can make multiple jumps against multiple flying enemies. And you can get High Jump from other sources (or an equivalent effect from a few class features).
Also, Monks are notoriously GOOD at AoOs (though Brawlers are a bit better)—full BAB when using maneuvers, Improved and Greater maneuver feats with skipped prereqs, and archetypes that let you grapple on an AoO.
Teleporters? Incorporeals? The only character I've ever had an easy time fighting these with was an AoO monk, which if you actually read my last post you'll note are countered with very easy-to-adapt tactics.
Anyway, yeah, sorry this is getting derailed.
I was pretty sure what we determined was you far overvalue odd corner case builds that only come online at 20th level and assume ludicrously lax GMing to allow ("I have an equivalent +15 weapon!"), but that's beside the point.
It's when you have to resort to things like "Yes but if you're this specific class with this specific class option that uses a specific weapon" that you kinda make my point for me.
You're also missing that Tetori need to spend Ki to have Grab (unless you're spending YET MOAR Feats you can't really spare on stuff like Hamatula Grasp).
There's not a limit to Acrobatics checks, but there IS a limit to how many feet you can move.
Blind is a trivial status ailment at high levels. Everybody and their grandma has Blindsight/Sense/Tremorsense/Something else funky and/or Blind Fight, or is immune to being blinded for various reasons (too many eyes, too few highs, a CMD higher than you can reliably overcome, etc.). Also teleportation does not require line of sight. Hence why you can Dimension Door or Teleport from inside a building or across a continent.
"Ghost touch armor spikes" does not counter incorporeals. I have no clue how you think they are. It neither stops them from attacking you (your armor spikes don't improve your touch AC, and don't harm them if they attack, so it just gives you a different way to retaliate...except 1d6 Str/Con damage or level drain is far more devastating to you in the long term than the death of one creature), or going around you (*Goes under the ground* *Pops up where it pleases*). Likewise the Swordmaster's Flair thing works for ONE CLASS (and a few archetypes) more than once per day.
A good rule of thumb: If your tactic/build relies on too many things coming together perfectly to function, it's not a good tactic/build.
"I need 5 levels of Monk and 6 Feats to make this work. Hokay." Yeah, no. It better be something freakin' SPECTACULAR if it takes that much investment and "I can make a dude stand there for a round (maybe, if he comes within my reach, and fails his Acrobatics, and I succeed on my CMB, and he needs to walk or fly within 15 feet of me instead of taking a wider route or teleporting or whatever" is...not.
Even if it was spectacular, it's still highly specific to be saying "That's not a problem for anyone". If it relies on a specific, unique class feature (High Jump, Panache), that's good for THAT CLASS, sure, but definitely doesn't invalidate entire swathes of challenges for the other 95% of options as you're trying to claim.
Thunderbeard those don't work nearly as well as you think they do unless the room is not all that big, in which case you can just be large with a reach weapon, but even then, there is no guarantee of success. Also stand still requires the enemy to be adjacent to you, which is one reason why I never chose the feat. This matters because most bad guys are going to try to move in manner that allows them to avoid the AoO anyway, and if there is more than one they will move on opposite sides, and you can't cover both of them.
I am not saying they don't help deal extra damage or they are not useful sometimes, but they are not the stop-gap you think they are.
Ah—I always thought that Stand Still worked on enemies moving from any of your threatened squares into an adjacent square, but it looks like that might be a misinterpretation. As for the rest, I should move this discussion somewhere else—but if you're in a campaign where being able to fight incorporeals in more than one combat a day is an issue, you're in a pretty unusual campaign by my experience.
And wraithstrike: Have you ever played in a campaign with a reach/opportunity tank? There are multiple campaigns I'm in where tactics like that are the only reason the party ever survived past level 4.
Ah—I always thought that Stand Still worked on enemies moving from any of your threatened squares into an adjacent square, but it looks like that might be a misinterpretation. As for the rest, I should move this discussion somewhere else—but if you're in a campaign where being able to fight incorporeals in more than one combat a day is an issue, you're in a pretty unusual campaign by my experience.
And wraithstrike: Have you ever played in a campaign with a reach/opportunity tank? There are multiple campaigns I'm in where tactics like that are the only reason the party ever survived past level 4.
I have been the reach opportunity tank. It worked reasonably well if the room was not too large, and there was only 1 or 2 entrances into the room. Otherwise there were ways to stay out of reach, and still get to the other party members. It is useful at times, but you have to set things up so they have to get past you. We did not have anyone to do battlefield(magic) control to cut off parts of the room. If so funneling them directly to me would have made things work better.
However them having to take the long way around did make them use extra movement at times so it still helps some, just to be a threat. It gave the archers time to kill a few of them.
My attack rotation usually went like this:
Move (if necessary)
Free action: stow shield
Free action: wield sword two-handed
Attack (two-handed power attack)
Free action: wield sword one-handed
Free action: equip shieldThere are at least 2 threads where people argue over whether something slightly less controversial is legal (with a force shield ring). I'm shocked that you never had PFS table variation on the legality.
And both sides of the argument admitted that the GM would be well within their rights to disallow since they can limit free actions. (I would have.)
That is a subject that I am aware of. I just don't think anyone cared simply because an extra 1-3 AC at the end of a turn is rather trivial to nitpick compared other issues within the ruleset.
That is a subject that I am aware of. I just don't think anyone cared simply because an extra 1-3 AC at the end of a turn is rather trivial to nitpick compared other issues within the ruleset.
Sure... but by level 11, at the end of PFS, it's an extra 5-6 AC at the end of a turn.
I think people are on the right track with the Power Attack 2 hand and swap some Char for Str if you want the damage buff. You could also talk about having a "Large Scimitar" and swapping out your scimitar for a Falchion. That'd be a bit more subjective, but it's an option. (It wouldn't give a huge damage buff, but if it doesn't break your character concept it gives you a bit more)
That is a subject that I am aware of. I just don't think anyone cared simply because an extra 1-3 AC at the end of a turn is rather trivial to nitpick compared other issues within the ruleset.Sure... but by level 11, at the end of PFS, it's an extra 5-6 AC at the end of a turn.
To which at that point AC begins to matter less. I can testify first hand that there were plenty of fights where it didn't help.
Besides, we're now talking about at least a +3 quick draw light steel shield with possible shield focus feats. If someone wanted to invest that much into a shield, be my guest. Its too rich for my blood.
This is great stuff, folks. Thanks for your help!
I've tried posting an update a few times now, and each time my internet connection gave me fits. So sorry this is late!
A couple things my PC is doing for sure: purchasing a belt of giant strength and taking the Improved Critical feat at 9th level - which is 1xp away. Aside from that, I'll have to give more thought to the feats and retraining ideas.
The point about paladins taking damage so others won't is a great point. This is my first paladin; normally I play fighters or fighter-types, where I want my PC to be able to withstand a lot of attacks when he/she is in the thick of things. I guess I'm still getting used to the "it's not all about me" perspective of a paladin. Yeah, it's taken me 8 levels, but I'm not always a fast learner. :)
Ah—I always thought that Stand Still worked on enemies moving from any of your threatened squares into an adjacent square, but it looks like that might be a misinterpretation. As for the rest, I should move this discussion somewhere else—but if you're in a campaign where being able to fight incorporeals in more than one combat a day is an issue, you're in a pretty unusual campaign by my experience.
And wraithstrike: Have you ever played in a campaign with a reach/opportunity tank? There are multiple campaigns I'm in where tactics like that are the only reason the party ever survived past level 4.
It did...in 3.5.
I was the one who made the model Lockdown fighter on the WoTC boards for 3.5. Stand Still worked on the entire area you threatened, and with Hedge of Thorns from the Crusader class as a stance, any and all forms of movement provoked.
So you took a feat where casting and using spells, even swift ones, also provoked, you advanced up the field with a reach weapon, got an enemy in your reach, and kept them there. They literally could not move away from you...or at you, if you had reach. They had to make a Reflex save to get away from you, and that DC was the damage of your hit. Since it was a two-handed weapon, that was quickly in the 25-30 range and higher.
At level 18, you got overwhelming assault, where you got only 1 attack on your turn...but all your attacks did double damage, including any AoO's. Your DC's hit 80's easily.
The Enemy Could Not Move.
Needless to say, it doesn't work that well in PF. But in 3.5, combined with Pierce Magical COncealment and Pierce Magical Protection, it was a very effective caster killer.
===Aelryinth
About the retraining option: If my PC retrains Toughness and takes another feat in its place, will he lose all of the hit points he's received from it to this point, or just not be able to gain any further hit points in the future?
loses the 8 or 9 (depending on if you retrain before or after) HP he gained from Tougness.
OK, thanks Dafydd. That's what I figured would be the case, though I was really hoping it wasn't. Not real excited about the prospect of losing 8hp.
loses the 8 or 9 (depending on if you retrain before or after) HP he gained from Tougness.OK, thanks Dafydd. That's what I figured would be the case, though I was really hoping it wasn't. Not real excited about the prospect of losing 8hp.
You have 10 lay on hands per day that each heal 4d6 HP of damage. On the average that is an extra 140 HP per day that other characters don’t have access to. Trade toughness for Ferocious Resolve and that is like getting an extra 14 HP. If you had picked up an extra lay on hands that would have given you another 28 HP per day on the average. Toughness is not that good of a feat especially for a paladin.
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Save up for a Bane Baldric, Bracers of the Avenging Knight, or a Silver Smite Bracelet.
The Bane Baldric would be a useful item for dealing with non-evil enemies.
Channel Ray (from Ranged Tactics Toolbox) can get the enemy's attention quick. Ranged touch attack with positive energy?! Many a paladin's true enemies won't enjoy that. They may even rush the paly and forget any other party members.
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My friend, you want power, then I will give you 4 feats that can give that to you.
Here they are:
Skill Focus: Survival (a prerequisite for the eldritch heritage feats)
Eldritch feats with the orc bloodline as the focus
Eldritch Heritage: Touch of Rage (Sp): At 1st level, you can touch a creature as a standard action, giving it a morale bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and Will saving throws equal to 1/2 your sorcerer level (minimum 1) for 1 round. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
Improved Eldritch Heritage(11th level or higher): Strength of the Beast (Ex): At 9th level, you gain a +2 inherent bonus to your Strength. This bonus increases to +4 at 13th level, and to +6 at 17th level.
Greater Eldritch Heritage (17th level or higher): Power of Giants (Sp): At 15th level, you may grow to Large size as a standard action. At this size you gain a +6 size bonus to Strength, a –2 penalty to Dexterity, a +4 size bonus to Constitution, and a +4 natural armor bonus. You may return to your normal size as a standard action. You may remain in this size for up to 1 minute per character level per day; this duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be used in 1 minute increments.
Be sure to check out the feats in more detail because they require to have a high charisma score to have access to them which I think you have already according to your stats. At level 17 if you get that high, by using power of the giants this feat line will grant you +12 to your strength plus give you a natural reach as a bonus as well as other things.
You spent all of your feats in things that don't increase damage, put more points in CHA than STR, and use a shield. it's not surprising that your damage output is low.
A few things you could do to improve your damage:
buy a belt of STR and increase your STR.
Use your scimitar 2 handed
Multiclass dip into Bloodrager to get rage and some interesting wands.
Get power attack
Get cornugon Smash and max intimidate.
Get hurtful
Ask your GM to change your ferocity racial trait for "toothy" and get a natural attack, or get Razortusks as a feat if you can't.
Get a helm of the mammoth lord for an additional natural attack.
While those 2 extra attacks at -5 only do half str damage, they do full power attack damage and full smite evil damage.
You could do something like 2 attacks with itterative attacks, plus one attack as swift action if you succesfully intimidate, plus 2 natural attacks. If you are bloodraging, you add str bonus (some bloodrage lines add natural attacks or bonus damage), and if you are smiting, all those add your level to damage, and you ignore DR.
Just curious which changes did the OP try and how is it working so far? ...
I also agree that another valid point is what he is trying keep up with.
My PC has purchased a Belt of Giant Strength +2 (all he could currently afford). I just played him at a con over the weekend and it seemed to work out well; I know it's only a +1 for attack and damage, but sometimes that matters. :)
Having survived that scenario, I'll be leveling him up to 9th shortly. I plan to take the Improved Critical feat for his scimitar, and I'm excited to see how that works out. In addition to the multiplied damage, he also has the Flame of the Dawnflower trait, which adds 2 points of damage on crits.
I've been torn about the 2-handed attack strategy because my PC has invested in a +2 shield and I'm not keen on him selling it off ... Then I realized that he can just keep it slung over his shoulder and use it when he needs it. Duh. So I'll be trying out the 2-handed attack next time I play him, hopefully next month.
Still kicking around the feat retraining ideas. I might have him retrain Channel Smite for one of the feats others have suggested.
As for my points of comparison: In the past I've played with players whose PCs (like archers, or fighter-types with nasty, big, pointy melee weapons) seem to average in the 20's for their damage per attack, while my PC seems to average in the low teens, if that. I guess it's a bit embarrassing for me, sometimes, and not quite what I want my PC to be like (a fearsome warrior of good, a force to be reckoned with).
So that's where I'm at right now. Thanks for asking!
Definitely retrain Channel Smite and just nab a COnductive weapon if you still want the effect.
You're going to be doing less damage then other martials unless you invoke your sword bond or use spells. That's because they get static bonuses against enemies.
You get BURST damage against enemies. Remember you can up the enhancement bonus of your weapon with sword bond, or add some kicker effects as needed.
Let them shine. Then when it comes time for the big bad, you Smite and show them all how its really done.
==Aelryinth
Bane construct ,and bane elemental arrows for the thing you can not smite
worth remembering as well that Paladins with their ability to self-heal as a swift action (which is typically a better plan than channeling) make very good tanks - and the combination of likely wearing heavy armor + a paladin's typically very good saves means you can withstand a lot. If you don't deal out as much every round against every opponent you should still be enough of a threat to take some hits for your team (and when you smite put some enemies down)
In one Bonekeep scenario my Paladin/Bard/Dragon Disciple soaked up some 200+ hps worth of hits (and still had spare lay-on-hands when the rest of that particular party decided they had had enough). Paladins make great tanks.
Yes, swift action self lay on hands is awesome. This is how I contribute a lot of the time: get enemy's way + Lay on Hands (with Greater Mercy) + FRA and let the cleric worry about the rest of the party. Combine that with Antagonize as well for extra enjoyment.
Just a final follow-up: I played my paladin today with 2-hand power attack going on the scimitar (I did re-train Channel Smite to Power Attack after all), along with improved critical. He regularly did damage in the 20-30's, and had numerous critical hits that scored even more.
So thanks to everyone who gave advice, whether or not I took it. I'm much more pleased with my PC's performance, and much more enlightened about character options.
Glad to hear you're enjoying yourself. =)