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As the title says: assuming you are the GM, which Unchained Rules will always see a place in your games? I'm curious which ones people seem to value the most.
Personally, my own list:
Unchained Barbarian
Unchained Monk
Unchained Rogue
Unchained Summoner
Background Skills
Skill Unlocks (no feat, access limited to Rogue levels)
Variant Multiclassing
Combat Stamina (feat requires Fighter 1, additional stamina uses only apply to Combat Feats gained via Fighter Bonus Feats, so as to discourage dipping)
Others?
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Well I don't have the book yet(Just shipped this morning), so would be pretty hard to make a final decision at the moment but things that I'm sure will be included:
-Unchained Barbarian, Monk, Rogue and Summoner.
-+2 skills to every classes (didn't read background skills yet, so will wait and see)
-Skill Unlocks (Rogue Only, so they can be the only ones to do cool stuffs with skills)
-Variant Multiclassing
-Combat Stamina (Fighter gets it for free, everybody else can access it with a feat.)
-Scaling Magic Items (remember reading one where essentially if you put x value magic items, it would count as one of the big six and I do like that a lot, so people can actually buy magic items that they want, instead of the big six. Also big fan of this is my father sword and it keeps scaling with me.)
As the title says: assuming you are the GM, which Unchained Rules will always see a place in your games? I'm curious which ones people seem to value the most.
Personally, my own list:
Unchained Barbarian
Unchained Monk
Unchained Rogue
Unchained Summoner
Background Skills
Skill Unlocks (no feat, access limited to Rogue levels)
Variant Multiclassing
Combat Stamina (feat requires Fighter 1, additional stamina uses only apply to Combat Feats gained via Fighter Bonus Feats, so as to discourage dipping)Others?
Unsure about the barbarian changes - the class works pretty darn well as it stands and a read through didn't jump out at me and say 'hey yeah they made a great class into ... a better class' it just seemed kind of like 'they took a great class and made some tweaks and killed rage cycling'
Monk for sure.
Rogue for sure.
Will still ban summoners from my games.
Unsure about skills - skimmed this so far and plan to read it several times before I make up my mind.
Like the multiclassing.
combat stamina available to fighters rogues and monks. Free to fighters.
I like the scaling items.
Those are my thoughts on a first read through - I am not making any changes 'for sure' until I see stuff in action - what's good on paper doesn't match up in play sometimes so I need to see how it works before I commit whole hog.
Don't have the book or PDF yet.
Does the 'stamina' thing address the problems with fighter's weaknesses in saves, versatility, movement, and defenses, as well as out of combat options?
Or is it basically more DPR tricks the fighter doesn't need in the first place?
==Aelryinth
Don't have the book or PDF yet.
Does the 'stamina' thing address the problems with fighter's weaknesses in saves, versatility, movement, and defenses, as well as out of combat options?
Or is it basically more DPR tricks the fighter doesn't need in the first place?
==Aelryinth
Let me say the section has a *large* list of feats modified by use of stamina, as such I've not read every one of them but was doing a 'scan... check.. scan' of the modifications.
From that impression alone my answer would be:
Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, no.
That's first impressions - no playtest time - gut reaction to what I see in the system. I also saw it as a perfect fit for a fighter, and to a lesser extent for a rogue and or monk with the added stipulation that the larger class changes they received may change my mind in actual play.
These are not my personal rules, but they'll be in place in the game I'm about to join. Talking things over with the GM as we read through the book. :)
CH 1
All the unchained classes - we banned the rogue and the summoner but left the old monk and barbarian as options. Fractional base bonuses.
CH 2
Background skills. Skill Unlocks for the unchained rogue only. Maybe the revised crafting/profession rules, have to look them over more closely. Same goes for variant multiclassing.
CH 3
Stamina and combat tricks. Wound Thresholds (but only for 50%). Diseases and Poisons. We're going to playtest the revised action economy model and see if it works out for us, optimistic!
CH 4
Automatic Bonus Progression.
CH 5
No idea yet, way too much to take in.
What makes you think they killed rage cycling? Tireless Rage is still in and near as I can tell all the old ways to rage cycle would still work.
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There’s a lot that can be done to improve barbarian (removing the danger of rage HP, removing the unnecessary AC penalty, adjusting the system mastery necessary to build a strong barbarian, giving the barbarian intuitive ways to get ‘tankier’ easily, killing rage cycling, etc). I’ll withhold judgment until I have a chance to sit down and review the whole book. There’s nothing I’ve read that made me clamor for the book except maybe the summoner adjustments.
I'll have to wait at least two more weeks before it becomes available anywhere within my reach.
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Always On?
Fractional Advancement, Loyalties, Any of the Classes, Craft and Profession uses
Probably?
Consolidated or Background Skills, Bonus by Cost Magic Items, Poison and Disease
Rarely?
Wild Magic, Fun Magic Item Creation Mode
Doubtful?
Minimum Magic, Scaling Items
Probably Never?
Magic Pool (Lose *so* many spells)
Obviously, I'm going to chat with my players to find out which of the systems that I'm interested that they like, but so far:
— Unchained Classes replace the old ones.
— Fractional BAB
— Variant Multiclassing (with standard still available)
— Skill Unlocks (free for rogue, feat for everyone else)
— Background Skills
— Stamina Pool (free for fighter, feat for everyone else)
I'll likely use the simple monster building rules, but I need to read the book in person to figure it out first. Its a pretty in-depth system.
I've already been using a house rule that sounds very similar to Background Skills for years, so that seems like a really easy one.
My book shipped yesterday so I got nothing to say that's not based on speculation or the descriptions in the threads.
I think I'm going to auto include all the unchained classes but treat them as alternate classes with the exception of the Summoner spell list. Ive been doing okay at reigning in summoners and the fact that there are major buffs to some of the weaker classes so I don't think forcing people to take a nerfed summoner is worthwhile.
I already own copies of all kinds of third party buffs to Rogue, Monk and Fighter so some things will get tricky.
Book of Martial Action has a pool similar to the Stamina system, including going up with BAB so I'll just let those work off the same pool. I'd limit stamina buffs to fighter feat slots and let everyone continue access to martial actions.
Rogue Glory was a significant buff to the Rogue so the book may become borderline useless depending on how workable the unchained rogue is. I may limit it's buffs to normal rogue and leave unchained rogue as it's own thing. I may make skill unlocks a rogue only thing for both rogues.
Legendary Games 'Way of Ki' give Monks a lot to do with their ki pool so depending on what the new Monk looks like I may need to limit ki feats to regular monk, otherwise new monk is capable of having the accuracy of a fighter which may not sit well with me.
I will more than likely auto-include background skills and either the consolidated skill list or just extra skills.
If the new action resolution system is decent I may use that for early players and see how it goes. if it goes over well I may just replace the current one. I may take away iterative attacks as well. Will definitely always on the new rules for poison and multiclassing.
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From what I've read, I think the ones I'll be using are:
-Unchained Classes as options
-Rage now work as the unchained barbarian's except for barbarian who can switch out what type of rage they use each time they rage
-Fractional BAB
-Variant Multiclassing(and normal as well)
-Skill Unlocks(For everyone, for free as I want skills to be more important in the game but Unchained Rogue counts ranks in skills as 1.5x then 2x then 2.5x as much for skill unlocks and prerequisites gained at the levels where skill unlocks would normally be gained)
Background Skills(For everyone)
Stamina Pool(Free for everyone, but Fighter adds their level to their pool)
Most likely the rules for no to little magic items as well.(Combination will vary depending on the setting, for Golarion probably the one that removes the big six for inherent bonuses and 1/2 WBL)
As the title says: assuming you are the GM, which Unchained Rules will always see a place in your games? I'm curious which ones people seem to value the most.
Personally, my own list:
Unchained Barbarian
Unchained Monk
Unchained Rogue
Unchained Summoner
Background Skills
Skill Unlocks (no feat, access limited to Rogue levels)
Variant Multiclassing
Combat Stamina (feat requires Fighter 1, additional stamina uses only apply to Combat Feats gained via Fighter Bonus Feats, so as to discourage dipping)Others?
I won't have the book for another 10 days, but I will try to remember to come back and answer then.
I'm extremely interested if the stamina pool actually has an effect on a Fighter's non-martial defenses (i.e. saves, resistances), base movement, and other stuff, feats of which generally fall under General, not combat.
Anyone got any outliers to contribute on this?
==Aelryinth
What is this fractional BAB?
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What is this fractional BAB?
Basically it's a tool to help out multiclassing by letting each level progress fractions of bonuses instead of only tracking full bonuses.
For example a Cleric 2 has a BAB of +1. A cleric 1/Oracle 1 has the same amount of levels at the medium BAB track as a cleric 2, but neither class advances BAB at level 1 so the multiclass character has a BAB of +0, and is one point behind.
If the cleric 1/oracle 1 multiclass character was using the fractional system, he'd gain .5 BAB from cleric and .5 BAB from Oracle, bringing him to a total of +1.
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Fractional BAB never makes a difference to your BAB bigger than the number of classes you have, but every +1 counts, and there's a huge difference between +5 ad +6/+1.
For a character like an Arcane Trickster, who has three classes, none of which have full BAB, the extra BAB is a big deal.
oh that. I remember something like that in some 3rd party.
It was in unearthed arcana for 3.5, IIRC.
I'm extremely interested if the stamina pool actually has an effect on a Fighter's non-martial defenses (i.e. saves, resistances), base movement, and other stuff, feats of which generally fall under General, not combat.
Anyone got any outliers to contribute on this?
==Aelryinth
I just looked through this again - the answer is no. Currently all stamina based things are enhancements to combat feats. Almost every combat feat is enhanced by stamina.
No base movement. No saves (although combat feats that give a bonus to saves may allow a re-roll for example), no resistances, etc.
I can see expanding the system to other things - but as it stands it's a way to expand combat feats.
I just checked i actually have almost four weeks still to go before i can get the book.
Paizo y u no accept paypal?
I just checked i actually have almost four weeks still to go before i can get the book.
Paizo y u no accept paypal?
Because Paypal won't accept Paizo.
Paizo'd actually LOVE to accept Paypal, but Paypal has very tight restrictions on what a business can do in order to qualify for using it.
I think there's something with the Subscriptions deal that makes Paypal flip out and makes Paizo ineligible for its services.
I like what they did with Barbarian I would use that but do you apply the changes to Rage to other class that have Rage or would the new Barbarian just use a different Rage rule compared other ways to get Rage. For example the BloodRager but there is also the Rage spell and Skald's Inspired Rage. Also there are few feat that give a bit of Rage. Do all those use the new Rage Mechanic?
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By the rules, the Rage part of the Barbarian is just for the new Barbarian... *but* I personally apply the rules to any class that uses Rage in my own home games. I expect a lot of GMs that use the Unchained Barbarian would do the same.
PFS, I'm not sure on. We'll be seeing their own rules for it soon I imagine.
I'm extremely interested if the stamina pool actually has an effect on a Fighter's non-martial defenses (i.e. saves, resistances), base movement, and other stuff, feats of which generally fall under General, not combat.
Anyone got any outliers to contribute on this?
==Aelryinth
I just looked through this again - the answer is no. Currently all stamina based things are enhancements to combat feats. Almost every combat feat is enhanced by stamina.
No base movement. No saves (although combat feats that give a bonus to saves may allow a re-roll for example), no resistances, etc.
I can see expanding the system to other things - but as it stands it's a way to expand combat feats.
So, ugh.
Does nothing but make some combat feats stronger...which they needed, but doesn't help the main problem with the fighter - defense, movement and versatility out of combat.
Wahoo.
==Aelryinth
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Honestly, it's still a great improvement (if you restrict it to the Fighter). At it's core, the ability allows you to use your Stamina (which refreshes with a small rest, in minutes) to improve your attack rolls after they are rolled (before you hit/miss). That alone helps make the Fighter a more reliable combatant, especially once AC has been narrowed down.
All of the other uses are just extra options. Some help with damage, some saves, some allies... honestly, giving a "fighter-only boost" to all the combat feats is *exactly* what I wanted.
It's not huge. It didn't need to be. It's a small improvement that makes the class feel worthwhile. I love it.
I'm thinking about adding a houserule on the stamina recovery mechanic. 1/minute is slow when you reach the mid/lategame and characters will be dropping 5-10 stamina on a single feat use. I feel like higher level characters should be able to recover stamina faster.
Honestly, it's still a great improvement (if you restrict it to the Fighter). At it's core, the ability allows you to use your Stamina (which refreshes with a small rest, in minutes) to improve your attack rolls after they are rolled (before you hit/miss). That alone helps make the Fighter a more reliable combatant, especially once AC has been narrowed down.
All of the other uses are just extra options. Some help with damage, some saves, some allies... honestly, giving a "fighter-only boost" to all the combat feats is *exactly* what I wanted.
It's not huge. It didn't need to be. It's a small improvement that makes the class feel worthwhile. I love it.
Wait, you're saying this hyped stamina mechanic boils down to a simple bonus to hit on demand?
(rubs temples)
They really did give up on the Fighter, didn't they?
==Aelryinth
Stamina basically makes Combat Feats better. For instance, you can spend Stamina to use Cleave without taking the AC penalty, or to use Gory Finish on a critical hit, even if the target doesn't die.
I like the Spell Attack Dice rules. Doesn't actually change any outcomes, but it puts the responsibility for resolving saving throws on the attacker.
It's a little more complicated than just a to hit bonus.
I think the new system is a boon to fighter and helps the class be better. If you use the right archetype, combine it with Combat Tricks and the Background Skills system, the fighter is looking a lot better than it used to.
That said, after having read over the new barbarian... It's neat and it does fix the biggest barbarian issues (rage death, math), but I kind of wish they'd have gone with the Unchained Fighter instead.
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Honestly, it's still a great improvement (if you restrict it to the Fighter). At it's core, the ability allows you to use your Stamina (which refreshes with a small rest, in minutes) to improve your attack rolls after they are rolled (before you hit/miss). That alone helps make the Fighter a more reliable combatant, especially once AC has been narrowed down.
All of the other uses are just extra options. Some help with damage, some saves, some allies... honestly, giving a "fighter-only boost" to all the combat feats is *exactly* what I wanted.
It's not huge. It didn't need to be. It's a small improvement that makes the class feel worthwhile. I love it.
Wait, you're saying this hyped stamina mechanic boils down to a simple bonus to hit on demand?
(rubs temples)
They really did give up on the Fighter, didn't they?
==Aelryinth
No... as I said, that's what the feat does at it's core. It *also* gives additional options with all the RPG-line combat feats and how they can interact with Stamina.
So if you take the feat (assuming it's open to non-fighters) and have ZERO combat feats, then yes, its utility is less. For fighters, who have a ton of combat feats, it becomes quite useful.
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It's a little more complicated than just a to hit bonus.
I think the new system is a boon to fighter and helps the class be better. If you use the right archetype, combine it with Combat Tricks and the Background Skills system, the fighter is looking a lot better than it used to.That said, after having read over the new barbarian... It's neat and it does fix the biggest barbarian issues (rage death, math), but I kind of wish they'd have gone with the Unchained Fighter instead.
Yup. My exact thoughts. An Unchained Fighter would have been neat, but honestly all I wanted was a way to make Combat Feats more useful *just* for Fighters. I now get that option :D Background Skills + Stamina for Fighters only, and the Fighter gets a nice improvement that puts it back on par with a lot of other classes.
I am happy.
I'm extremely interested if the stamina pool actually has an effect on a Fighter's non-martial defenses (i.e. saves, resistances), base movement, and other stuff, feats of which generally fall under General, not combat.
Anyone got any outliers to contribute on this?
==Aelryinth
I just looked through this again - the answer is no. Currently all stamina based things are enhancements to combat feats. Almost every combat feat is enhanced by stamina.
No base movement. No saves (although combat feats that give a bonus to saves may allow a re-roll for example), no resistances, etc.
I can see expanding the system to other things - but as it stands it's a way to expand combat feats.
So, ugh.
Does nothing but make some combat feats stronger...which they needed, but doesn't help the main problem with the fighter - defense, movement and versatility out of combat.
Wahoo.
==Aelryinth
No - I think the systems you are looking for are:
* alternate action economy (in the book)
* alternate skill system with background skills (in the book)
* honestly I have no idea what you want more for defense... the fighter can rock the armor and physical protection, if you mean magic - well yeah he still needs to rely on other characters for something.
Honestly with the reaction to background skills (short version - 2 skill points per level only usable on non-combat related skills - all classes get these) which seems to be very loved by many people I think you can take care of the 'versatility' part.
The movement part is pretty much the same as everyone else in terms of getting a full attack off - however the action economy works pretty well at fixing that - it is across the board for all characters though. (short version - get three small actions/round that can be used for attack or move (single) each - or combined for more complex actions.
Outside of that I honestly don't see a problem with any character type having a weakness. If that's defense for a fighter (in terms of magical) then so be it (my opinion)
It was in unearthed arcana for 3.5, IIRC.
Yes it was, and it was so poorly written I would be surprised if very many tables used it back then. They pointed you to the chart from hell that I could barely figure out...and I knew what they were trying to do! My group had been using it for years before UA came out.
Paizo did a much better job of describing it, including the math of the progressions, which is really easy. Also, they address the "first level +2" on good saves, and called it out as intended to just add once. Thank you!
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Awesome! That's a house rule I have been using for some time - though haven't run my game in a little while, I really like the simplicity and small boost it gives to a LOT of concepts while still keeping scaling working quite well (IMHO) - it makes it a lot easier for non-full BAB classes to multiclass without feeling like they are really really far behind.What is this fractional BAB?Assuming it works like 3.5's (as I don't have Unchained yet), it's a system where instead of adding +1 BAB at certain levels, you instead gain either +1/2, +3/4, or +1 BAB per level depending on class. Ultimately it makes multiclassing easier.
For example-- a Monk 2/Warpriest 18 is twenty levels of a 3/4ths BAB class, but comes out with +14 BAB instead of +15. But if you do 20*3/4, you'd get the full +15 BAB.
A Wizard 2/Warpriest 18 would have (18*3/4) + (2*1/2) = 14.5 BAB. Always round down, so +14.
Comes out identical for single-class builds, so much of PF won't care, but like I said-- easier multiclassing.
You can do the same thing for saves too.
Yeah, the first thing we said when 3.0 hit 15 years ago was, "multiclassing xp penalties?....that's dumb", the second was, "hey, how come my multiclass character has a +0 BAB?!??". We never looked back. Most of our earliest and most used house rules relate to making it fair for multies (xp, Monk/Paladin, and BAB/Save progression.), this is the rule that I was surprised was not addressed in the PF CRB. I expected at least an option. I am glad that others might benefit from it now.
I will be launching a new campaign in a few months, and I will definitely be using:
-Revised Barbarian, Monk, Rogue, and Summoner
-Fractional base bonuses
-Staggered advancement
-Background skills
-Possibly a modified version of the Grouped Skills
-Alternate Crafting and Profession rules (possibly going further in detail on changing crafting times)
-Skill Unlocks
-Variant Multiclassing alongside standard multiclassing (also, I am disappointed in most of the VMC progressions, it's a great idea but poorly executed IMO)
-Removing alignment (Outsiders, Divine and Pos/Neg energy charged things, including Blessed/Tainted locations, will still have alignment)
-Revised Action Economy (love this...hope I can convince my group)
-Stamina Combat tricks for all. (with advantages for the Fighter)
-Wound Thresholds
-(possibly) simplified spellcasting
-some kind of Automatic Bonus Progression
-...aaannd Scaling Magic Items.
Also, I love the approach to Monster creation, I have long wanted boil them down to the skeleton and add classes a la SW d20. This system could achieve much the same effect.
I will be launching a new campaign in a few months, and I will definitely be using:
-Revised Barbarian, Monk, Rogue, and Summoner
-Fractional base bonuses
-Staggered advancement
-Background skills
-Possibly a modified version of the Grouped Skills
-Alternate Crafting and Profession rules (possibly going further in detail on changing crafting times)
-Skill Unlocks
-Variant Multiclassing alongside standard multiclassing (also, I am disappointed in most of the VMC progressions, it's a great idea but poorly executed IMO)
-Removing alignment (Outsiders, Divine and Pos/Neg energy charged things, including Blessed/Tainted locations, will still have alignment)
-Revised Action Economy (love this...hope I can convince my group)
-Stamina Combat tricks for all. (with advantages for the Fighter)
-Wound Thresholds
-(possibly) simplified spellcasting
-some kind of Automatic Bonus Progression
-...aaannd Scaling Magic Items.Also, I love the approach to Monster creation, I have long wanted boil them down to the skeleton and add classes a la SW d20. This system could achieve much the same effect.
16 subsystems including the monsters? That's fantastic! Seems to be the most so far in this thread. I'm glad you're getting so much use and fun out of Unchained!
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I don't tend to do the same thing for saves - for one I think saves get a bit more complicated (how do you track the Monk's save progression vs other classes?) and I tend to think of the boost to saves as one of the features of multiclassing (and yes for the saves that get boosted others may get a bit weaker - so I can see the arguments both ways - but for me I like fractional BAB but not save progression.
Really looking forward to getting my copy - hopefully soon (I'm a subscriber)
The Monk's save progressions in each save category are exactly the same as any other class. 1/3 level round down in Poor progression (Will), and 1/2 level +2 in Good progressions (Fort, Ref).
16 subsystems including the monsters? That's fantastic! Seems to be the most so far in this thread. I'm glad you're getting so much use and fun out of Unchained!I will be launching a new campaign in a few months, and I will definitely be using:
-Revised Barbarian, Monk, Rogue, and Summoner
-Fractional base bonuses
-Staggered advancement
-Background skills
-Possibly a modified version of the Grouped Skills
-Alternate Crafting and Profession rules (possibly going further in detail on changing crafting times)
-Skill Unlocks
-Variant Multiclassing alongside standard multiclassing (also, I am disappointed in most of the VMC progressions, it's a great idea but poorly executed IMO)
-Removing alignment (Outsiders, Divine and Pos/Neg energy charged things, including Blessed/Tainted locations, will still have alignment)
-Revised Action Economy (love this...hope I can convince my group)
-Stamina Combat tricks for all. (with advantages for the Fighter)
-Wound Thresholds
-(possibly) simplified spellcasting
-some kind of Automatic Bonus Progression
-...aaannd Scaling Magic Items.Also, I love the approach to Monster creation, I have long wanted boil them down to the skeleton and add classes a la SW d20. This system could achieve much the same effect.
Unfortunately, I am a big supporter of HeroLab (I have everything official Pathfinder), and I am quite sure that several of those subsystems will never be supported in the app. Sad face.
But hey! I have always been the one keeping track of everything for my group, especially auditing fractional saves and BAB. I'm used to busy sheets and alternate rules.