[Unchained] What are YOUR "always on" unchained rules going to be in your games?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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To expand on that, stamina is either available to everybody, available only after a feat, or only available to the Fighter. It regenerates at something like one per minute.

So now the Fighter has resources beyond "his own HP" too.


+1 on the Fractional Bonuses. I was planning to make this a house rule for D&D 3.5 (I never did find where they had this optional rule in 3.5) or more recently for Pathfinder if I ever get to be GM. Assuming that the +2 starting bonuses for classes with good Saves do not stack for a given type of Save (which it sort of sounds like from posts above), the Unchained rule would be exactly the same as what I had in mind (I don't have an advance copy of Unchained either). (Thus, fractional progression would be both a nerf and a buff, but overall I think it makes things more reasonable -- no stacking of ridiculously high Saves from selected dipping, but you get credit for all your class levels for both Saves and BAB even if the single-class tables make it appear otherwise.)


So essentially Combat Stamina makes your combat feats get an option to be used sort of like the activated abilities of fighter types in video games like Dragon Age (aside from what they already give)?

That sounds interesting. How does a character calculate their available Stamina?

Liberty's Edge

Threeshades wrote:
That sounds interesting. How does a character calculate their available Stamina?

It's BAB + Con Mod, apparently, and recovers at one point per minute. So...not a huge pool, but it recharges quick.


Well depending on your class it's a lost more than your average pool class feature. And with the exception of panache/grit it's also a lot faster at replenishing. So I would think there is a lot you can do with it. In fact considering that the average fight doesn't last longer than 4 turns you are probably not going to run out for most encounters. Or can you spend multiple stamina points per turn?


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Threeshades wrote:
That sounds interesting. How does a character calculate their available Stamina?
It's BAB + Con Mod, apparently, and recovers at one point per minute. So...not a huge pool, but it recharges quick.

I find the recharge mechanic very interesting. Whenever the "wands of cure light wounds top ups" came along I always made sure to track how many minutes it took (to ensure any buffs ran out at appropriate junctures). I don't know if other DMs do that, but I expect if they don't then players of fighters will certainly be advocating it. It'll introduce an interesting tension between stamina vs minute per level buffs. If the stamina points are good enough, we could see short rests become more common (they allow both HP and stamina powers to be regained rather than just HP).

Threeshades wrote:
Or can you spend multiple stamina points per turn?

I believe we've seen some powers require 5 stamina points.


It's a big pool, since BAB on a full martial class is going to be 1:1 with level while a lot of resource pools are something like "1/2 level + mod".

But yeah, the points can get drained pretty swiftly.


Some stamina powers are passive and always active as long as you have at least one stamina point, such as being able to qualify for feats without meeting the prerequisites. The other stamina powers cost anywhere between 1 and 10 stamina points, with most costing around 5 points.


In that case it's not all that much I suppose. I hope those powers costing 5 and more are worth it, I'm really hoping for this to bring fighters up to speed without me having to homebrew too much.

Liberty's Edge

Kudaku wrote:
Some stamina powers are passive and always active as long as you have at least one stamina point, such as being able to qualify for feats without meeting the prerequisites. The other stamina powers cost anywhere between 1 and 10 stamina points, with most costing around 5 points.

Right, it was with this in mind that I called the pool small. :)


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Kudaku wrote:
Some stamina powers are passive and always active as long as you have at least one stamina point, such as being able to qualify for feats without meeting the prerequisites. The other stamina powers cost anywhere between 1 and 10 stamina points, with most costing around 5 points.
Right, it was with this in mind that I called the pool small. :)

It is indeed on the small size, and relative to the stamina cost of things it quickly takes a while to recharge as well. I'm inclined to either increase the size of the pool for fighters, or improve the speed fighters recover stamina. As is it only takes ~3 uses of a 5-stamina trick to drain the stamina pool of a 10th level fighter, and then he has to take it easy for 15 minutes to recover it.

As John mentioned, there is a bit of a balance point between "my Shield spell is running out!" and "I need to recover stamina!". However, I can't help but think that most stamina benefits aren't strong enough to outweigh the importance of minute-duration buffs. For example being able to increase the range of Point Blank Shot by 5-30 feet (for the cost of 1-6 stamina) is a nice bonus, but I'm not going to let my Displacement, Shield or Mirror Image spell run out while I recover those stamina points. I expect a lot of fighters (or martials if you open the system to everyone) will use the stamina system sparingly and hope for passive recovery while exploring (ie keep pushing at normal speed) rather than stopping the entire party to recover and watch the buffs run out.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Pretty sure that how most people will use stamina points, sparingly, as mostly, it is when you really need it. I mean, you would only double the bonuses you get from two weapon defense, if you knew that you were about to take a full attack from an enemy for example. Or spending stamina points to get specialization in a weapon that you don't normally use, maybe you just picked up an enemy weapon and just need to hit an enemy for a round.


Eltacolibre wrote:
maybe you just picked up an enemy weapon and just need to hit an enemy for a round.

That scenario really annoyed me. A 12th level fighter with weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater weapon focus and greater weapon specialization needs to spend 8 stamina to get the same bonuses with a weapon he did not choose for one round. I really wish it would have been "for 1 minute" instead.


Finally got the book.

Classes:
Not using any of the unchained classes, but I will use the unchained summoner spellcasting. I've been using talented Monk, Fighter and Barbarian from RGG - although I'll adapt some material from the Unchained into what I use (no rage cycling, new rogue stuff). Been using fractional bonuses from Unearthed Arcana for years.

Skills and options:
Background skills, grouped skills and skill unlocks (by feat for skill, rogue has extra options). Variant Multiclassing alongside traditional multiclassing.

Gameplay:
Removing Iterative Attacks.
Will want to play around with revised action economy before I implement it.

Magic:
Innate Item Bonuses.

Monsters:
I'll likely use a number of things in here, depending on time, game and party.


Kudaku wrote:
Eltacolibre wrote:
maybe you just picked up an enemy weapon and just need to hit an enemy for a round.
That scenario really annoyed me. A 12th level fighter with weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater weapon focus and greater weapon specialization needs to spend 8 stamina to get the same bonuses with a weapon he did not choose for one round. I really wish it would have been "for 1 minute" instead.

I don't Inigo Montoya picking up an battleaxe and using it as well as his sword for a whole minute. I can see the shorter duration, but I can also see the stamina is a little high for the full suite of feats.


Chapter 1 – all Unchained classes are available – depending on further review &/or playtesting as to whether or not they'll stay - I suspect that they will; Fractional Base Bonuses.

Chapter 2 – Background skills; expanded skill uses; alternate crafting and profession rules; skill unlocks (everyone).

Chapter 3 – removing iterative attacks; wound thresholds; diseases and poisons.

Chapter 4 – automatic bonus progression, scaling items.

Won't be in the current campaign as it's now at 16th level and heading to 20th.

The next campaign will feature the above I suspect, depending on the rest of the group's reactions.


Here's my list of houserules/optional subsystems:
* Simplified version of Inherent Bonuses (Houserule)
* Core Rulebook Barbarian + Unchained Rage Powers
* Unchained Monk class
* Unchained Rogue (including skill tricks)
* Unchained Summoner
* Core Rulebook Fighter + Stamina powers
* Consolidated Skills List (Unchained)
* Simplified Spellcasting (Unchained)
* Characters can either Variant Multiclass, Core Rulebook Multiclass or stay a single class (Unchained)
* Variant Multiclassing rules for the hybrid classes (Houserule)
* Unchained Diseases and Poisons
* 5th edition Hit Dice Healing (Houserule)
* 5th edition Death Saving Throws (Houserule)
* Unchained Crafting and Profession Rules (Ultimate Campaign)
* Traits, Storyfeats and Drawbacks (Ultimate Campaign)
* Downtime (Ultimate Campaign)
* Retraining Rules (Ultimate Campaign)

Although at this point I do have to wonder off if I'm better just playing 5th edition.

Liberty's Edge

I'm using all the new Classes (plus a bunch of House Rules on those, and in general, of my own).

I'm also using the Skill Unlocks system (including letting people Feat into it), and indeed am buffing it by reducing the ranks required for all effects by 5 (to a minimum of 1).

I'd definitely allow Variant Multiclassing is people wanted it.

So far that's it, but I might also throw in Dynamic Magic Item Creation and/or the Disease and Poison Rules (still need to read through those carefully), and might well use Scaling Items or Inherent Bonuses in a game other than the one I'm currently running.


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Lord Mhoram wrote:
Kudaku wrote:
Eltacolibre wrote:
maybe you just picked up an enemy weapon and just need to hit an enemy for a round.
That scenario really annoyed me. A 12th level fighter with weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater weapon focus and greater weapon specialization needs to spend 8 stamina to get the same bonuses with a weapon he did not choose for one round. I really wish it would have been "for 1 minute" instead.
I don't Inigo Montoya picking up an battleaxe and using it as well as his sword for a whole minute. I can see the shorter duration, but I can also see the stamina is a little high for the full suite of feats.

Inigo Montoya strikes me as a swashbuckler, so he would indeed be heavily penalized by picking up a battleaxe since it's not a piercing weapon and so won't work with Swashbuckler finesse or many swashbuckler deeds. A duelist fighter would also be in trouble, since the battleaxe doesn't qualify for weapon finesse. :)

A better example is perhaps a fighter archer who uses stamina to gain his weapon focus: Longbow etc. bonuses with a greatsword, but that seems to be the point of stamina - to go above and beyond your normal limitations at the cost of expending resources. 8 stamina each round still seems very high for that benefit.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
LoneKnave wrote:
This version of the barb has slightly less damage with two handed weapon

and makes up for it by being better at TWF, which if your using the new action economy is great news.


*rubs hands together, cackling maniacally before the opened pages of the new unchained diseases and poisons*

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Threeshades wrote:
In that case it's not all that much I suppose. I hope those powers costing 5 and more are worth it, I'm really hoping for this to bring fighters up to speed without me having to homebrew too much.

There's precious little in the way of buffs for fighters in the areas they actually need it.

Movement.
Out of combat versatility.
Defenses, saves.
Skills.
Recovery options.

So, no, you'll probably still end up doing some homebrewing.

Stamina covers ONE aspect of fighters...that combat feats suck, they're worth half a class ability. With stamina, they've been improved, and in some cases can auto-scale.

That's ONE area addressed on the fighter.
--------------------------
As an immediate and thematic work around to the sparsity of Stamina points, I suggest BAB + FOrtitude Save.

==Aelryinth


Personally:
i'm definitely adding the stamina/featboost mechanic (free for fighters, errbody else needs a feat), variant multiclassing, skill unlocks (free for rogues, errbody else needs a feat), automatic bonus progression (this is almost literally the chart i made earlier for a homegame, feels good), and the new poisons/diseases mechanics.

i'm considering (pending input from my players) changing over to the action economy overhaul (with some minor houseruling), and active spellcasting rules.

also eyeing the alignment shifts/affirmations + alignment feats and wound thresholds systems because they seem pretty cool, but more bookeeping on my and the payers parts has me kinda wary of them.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

A campaign where everyone got automatic bonuses plus three scaling magic items (one wonder, one prize, and one bauble) would be amusing. Those bonuses and items would account for 100% of the expected WBL, so the GM could just hand-wave all treasure for the entire campaign.

Dark Archive

Classes
Rogue and Sorcerer - Mandatory
Monk - Optional
Barbarian - Mandatory for new players, Optional otherwise.
VMC available in addition to multiclassing.

Rogues get an extra Edge at 1 and count their ranks as +5 for determining their benefits.
Monks have a Ki pool equal to Level + WIS.
Fighters count as always having spent 1 stamina per 4 levels for their fighter bonus feats, giving them a unique niche and power boost.
Fractional BAB and Saves are in effect.

Skills
Consolidated + Background Skills
Skill Unlocks available for all classes with a feat.

Combat
Stamina available to all classes.
Poison and Disease

Magic
Overclocking (possibly higher DC)
Spell Attack Rolls
Spell Critical / Fumbles
Dynamic Item Crafting
Scaling Magic Items

Sovereign Court

Epic Meepo wrote:
A campaign where everyone got automatic bonuses plus three scaling magic items (one wonder, one prize, and one bauble) would be amusing. Those bonuses and items would account for 100% of the expected WBL, so the GM could just hand-wave all treasure for the entire campaign.

While WBL wouldn't be an issue - it would allow any treasure the players did find to be used for estates, retainers etc without gimping their characters.

In addition - wizards would still need a decent chunk of gold (though a small fraction of WBL) to keep writing down new spells.


Probably going to change it up depending on the campaign. I'm a big believer that you use rule options to help capture a specific feel for a campaign.

but there are a couple here that will probably be permanent for my games regardless.

Unchained Classes
Fractional Base bonuses
Alternate Crafting and Profession rules
Variant Multiclassing
Dynamic Magic item Creation

Lantern Lodge

Unchained Rogue.
Unchained Monk (twiked a bit)
Skill Unlock
Stamina
New action system
Wound threshold
Removing Alignment
Scaling magic item
Automatic bonus

I will gladly test the new poison.


Epic Meepo wrote:
A campaign where everyone got automatic bonuses plus three scaling magic items (one wonder, one prize, and one bauble) would be amusing. Those bonuses and items would account for 100% of the expected WBL, so the GM could just hand-wave all treasure for the entire campaign.

This thought definitely occurred to me as well.

I have to revise my earlier posting though: wound thresholds won't be used. Low level characters are dogfood with that system as-written.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Epic Meepo wrote:
A campaign where everyone got automatic bonuses plus three scaling magic items (one wonder, one prize, and one bauble) would be amusing. Those bonuses and items would account for 100% of the expected WBL, so the GM could just hand-wave all treasure for the entire campaign.

While WBL wouldn't be an issue - it would allow any treasure the players did find to be used for estates, retainers etc without gimping their characters.

In addition - wizards would still need a decent chunk of gold (though a small fraction of WBL) to keep writing down new spells.

Yep, players could acquire gold for cool flavor stuff without gimping their characters. (I'd make a wizard's spellbook a bauble that grants a few extra spells known per level.)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Turin the Mad wrote:
Epic Meepo wrote:
A campaign where everyone got automatic bonuses plus three scaling magic items (one wonder, one prize, and one bauble) would be amusing. Those bonuses and items would account for 100% of the expected WBL, so the GM could just hand-wave all treasure for the entire campaign.

This thought definitely occurred to me as well.

I have to revise my earlier posting though: wound thresholds won't be used. Low level characters are dogfood with that system as-written.

That's basically the premise of Monte Cook's Iron Heroes variant system.

No magical gear or anything, it's all based on the classes, and magic is badstuff that doesn't really need to be defined because of it.

==Aelryinth


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Depending upon which group/game I'm playing with, I intend to implement the following items from Unchained strategically. They all look fun, but I think different systems will benefit different flavors of campaign and levels of experience. I happen to play with multiple groups that greatly vary in those regards.

Classes
Rogue, Monk, and Barbarian will, generally, be open to everyone.
Summoner, I still need to look at more in depth. I've always banned the class, and while I like the flavor changes here, I'm not yet convinced that I shall lift that ban.

Skills and Options
Background Skills
Skill Unlocks, as written (free for Rogues and feat per skill for everyone else).
Variant Multiclassing (in addition to regular MC)

Gameplay
Stamina System will be limited to Fighters (for free) for now.
Wound Thresholds (only in my super experienced, high-powered/high level group)
Diseases and Poisons

Magic
Automatic Bonus Progression (in new and "relatively new" games; too complex to incorporate in games that have been going for a long time)

And that's where I am at for now. I'm still working my way through a lot of the sections in this fantastic supplement. I've only scratched the surface of Chapter 4, and I haven't even looked at Chapter 5 yet.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kudaku wrote:
What makes you think they killed rage cycling? Tireless Rage is still in and near as I can tell all the old ways to rage cycle would still work.

Yes, tireless rage is on. but if you rage again sooner than a minute after your last rage, you don't get the temp hit points.

Liberty's Edge

LazarX wrote:
Kudaku wrote:
What makes you think they killed rage cycling? Tireless Rage is still in and near as I can tell all the old ways to rage cycle would still work.
Yes, tireless rage is on. but if you rage again sooner than a minute after your last rage, you don't get the temp hit points.

Yeah, and with fewer once per Rage powers, a lot of the incentive to do it is gone.

It's still a nice trick, but way less of a must-have.


Stances also hurt cycling.

It's actually really cool for Primalist Bloodragers, who generally had little reason to cycle.

Personally:

  • Classes: Barbarian, Monk, Rogue are optional replacements. Summoner is a straight replacement. Barbarians can mix old and new rage powers as desired.
  • Fractional Bonuses: Yes.
  • I toyed with Background Skills, but for the moment I think I would have to do too much revision to the list, or it benefits some classes more than others. With the intent of Background Skills being non-mechanical, I find how easy it is to turn them into 'real' skill points distasteful (Druids, for example, are a straight "+1 real skill point" here. Bards are ridiculous).
  • Skill Unlocks. I'm not quite sure how to implement this one yet, but my thought is to grant everybody what the Rogue gets for the current campaign-- one free Unlock at 5/10/15/20, no feat. I don't have any Rogues, so overlap is a non-issue, but if I did, they'd cap out at eight Unlocks (ten, if they take Cutting Edge). Seems like mastery of all the skills still gives them their place.
  • Variant Multiclass: Flaunt it if you want it. Straight replacement of the requisite feats regardless of standard multiclassing, prestige classing, class retraining, or class whatever-else-shenanigans. I've toyed with turning them into a feat chain but that seems too exploitable (Wizard, spoiling everybody's fun again).
  • Scaling Items: Honestly, my design is to use these to replace all of the Big Six but weapons and armor. Weapons/Armor are on the customizable end and not every class wants to max them out anyway, so I'll leave them as they are, but Ring/Amulet/Cloak are really easy. And it's very easy to tweak the Headband/Belt to something that allows choice. Probably +2 as a baseline ability and another +2 at 4/8/12/16/20. Keep any one stat capped at +6, the item will finalize as a +6/+6 piece. I considered using the Automatic Bonus Progression instead but I'm... not sure how I feel about that one yet. Will talk to the group about the two. Even if we use Automatic, Scaling stuff will show up somewhere, definitely.


  • "Always On"

    4 unchained classes. Original monk will be kept alongside his unchained sibling for when archetypes are desired.
    Fractional base bonuses
    Background Skills
    Alternate Crafting & Profession
    Wound Thresholds
    Diseases & Poisons
    Skill Unlocks - Unchained Rogue only

    "Under Review"
    Variant Multiclassing - this will be permitted as an either/or option with standard multiclassing if included
    Stamina Pool - I like it conceptually but need time to evaluate it further. I'm thinking that it will be free to fighters and feat-purchase for others but there are other options that I would look to include first.
    Staggered Advancement - will likely put this to player vote.
    Action Economy/Removing iterative attacks - further evaluation required but I like it upon initial read-through
    Auto-bonus progression - Personally, I love this. Need to review further but may leave it to player vote.


    Krinn wrote:

    For my upcoming Eberron campaign, I'm planning to get the pdf as soon as it is available. I have yet to read first-hand what it offers, but for what others revealed...

    - Unchained barbarian, rogue and monk. These will replace the older classes. I always banned the summoner, so I'll have to look into the new class before relieving the ban hammer.
    - Fractional bab/saves ala unearhted arcana will be used if someone multiclasses (I don't expect this will actually be used)
    - Variant Multiclassing will be available for everyone.
    - Stamina. Free for fighters, others can use it for a feat.
    - Skill Unlocks. Free for rogues, others can use them for a feat.
    - Background Skills. Yes for everyone.
    - Alignment. Eberron already has a different take on alignment, so I'll have to read if any of the new alignment takes are fitting.
    - Action Economy. We are going to give a shot to the new act system.
    - Wounds. I think I'll use this as well if what I understood is true (roughly a negative level per 25% health loss)
    - Disease/Poison. Sure thing!

    I'll have to read what the other rules are, like dynamic item creation, simplified spellcasting and other spellcasting related stuff.
    Certainly I won't use the automatic bonus progression or innate item bonuses, because the existence of many lesser magic items fit Eberron lore.

    Now that I have the pdf, I can properly say what I'll be using.

    CLASSES
    - Barbarian (all the "rages" in the game will match the barbarian)
    - Monk
    - Rogue
    - Summoner
    - Fractional Base Bonuses

    SKILLS AND OPTIONS
    - Background Skills
    - Alternate Crafting and Profession Rules
    - Skill Unlocks
    - Variant Multiclassing

    GAMEPLAY
    - Removing Alignment (subjective morality for Eberron campaigns)
    - Revised Action Economy (with Puna'chong's houserules)
    - Stamina and Combat Tricks (free for fighters, feat for everyone else)
    - Wound Thresholds
    - Diseases and Poisons

    MAGIC
    - Spell Alterations (Wild Magic in the Mournland and Xen'Drik)
    - Esoteric Material Components (optional, scrounging in wilderness)
    - Innate Item Bonuses (you can have items without the "big 6" part)
    - Scaling Items
    - Dynamic Magic Item Creation (House Cannith still crafts with the old system in their forges, so Cannith made items are "standard", player characters can only use the old system in a Cannith forge if they have permission to enter, and the house asks for 25% payment, so one only saves 25%)


    All Unchained classes as options

    Stamina for free to martial characters

    Access to skill unlocks through the feat

    Background skills

    Modified automatic bonus progression

    Mandatory esoteric material components

    Removing iterative attacks

    Wound thresholds with the -2 per threshold

    Active player rolls (spellcasters vs. targets, defense rolls vs. attackers, opposed skill checks are rolls vs. 10 + opposition's skill bonus)

    Also to note, we're using hero points and armor as DR variants as well.


    After familiarizing myself with the Unchained rules, I can say for certain that I'll use the following:

    1) Unchained! Rogue is the base Rogue. Unchained! Summoner & Monk are Alt Classes of the originals; Unchained! Barbarian isn't allowed (it's not that it's too powerful, it just creates too many rules interaction headaches).

    2) Wound Thresholds (works nicely with Wounds & Vigor)

    3) Everyone has Stamina & Skill Tricks (It already heavily favors Martials and 6/9 combat-based spellcasters like the Inquisitor, Warpriest, and Hunter, while not favoring full casters and magic-based 6/9 spellcasters, so "everyone gets it" is fine).

    4) Background Skills

    5) Alternate Craft Skill rules (works REALLY well with Downtime)

    6) Skill Unlocks through Rogue's Edge as well as Signature Skill

    ---

    I MAY make Spell Attack Rolls the default, in order to make spellcasting more of an active thing - it's really not much different than the system already works, just reversing the role of what gets the "take 10" option and what is the active roll.

    Paizo Employee Designer

    eelot wrote:

    All Unchained classes as options

    Stamina for free to martial characters

    Access to skill unlocks through the feat

    Background skills

    Modified automatic bonus progression

    Mandatory esoteric material components

    Removing iterative attacks

    Wound thresholds with the -2 per threshold

    Active player rolls (spellcasters vs. targets, defense rolls vs. attackers, opposed skill checks are rolls vs. 10 + opposition's skill bonus)

    Also to note, we're using hero points and armor as DR variants as well.

    Right on, someone is trying out the super gritty wound option! That was my original formulation for the section, and I like it because it really lets martials cut into spellcasters' ability to cast their best spells and emphasizes the value of healing. It totally can get into a death spiral though, so tell me what you guys think!

    Sovereign Court

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

    I might use super gritty for Mummy's Mask.


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    Mark Seifter wrote:
    Right on, someone is trying out the super gritty wound option! That was my original formulation for the section, and I like it because it really lets martials cut into spellcasters' ability to cast their best spells and emphasizes the value of healing. It totally can get into a death spiral though, so tell me what you guys think!

    I like Wounds & Vigor, and will probably combine the two.

    However, I'll probably do something a little odd:

    Vigor Points work just like normal HP (like they already do), and aren't subject to the Wound Threshold Rules.

    Rather, the Wounds themselves are subject to the rules of Gritty Wound Thresholds.

    Thus, is a lv5 Fighter somehow has an 18 Con and max Vigor, he has 50 Vigor and 36 Wounds.

    If the Fighter gets hit by 4 Critical Hits from a Flacata, he takes 12 Wound damage (in addition to the Vigor lost, as usual), and thus is into his second Wound Category (having only 24/36 Wounds remaining). He takes a -2 from the Threshold rules.

    If he drops below 18 Wounds (which is, in normal terms, hitting "0" and going into negative HP), he not only gets a -4, he is also Wounded under the W&V rules, and thus is also Staggered.

    ---

    Doing this basically, then, ignores the whole "wound thresholds below 0" thing, but ultimately actually makes combat a bit more nasty and cinematic - characters are dodging shots and shrugging off minor hits, while Criticals are slowly eating away at their "actual" HP and cumulative damage is going to affect their performance.

    Sovereign Court

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

    Always-on:
    New classes (assumed to be used; old versions available with discussion)
    Background skills - love this system.
    Variant multiclassing, alongside regular multiclassing
    Dynamic magic item creation
    Skill unlocks, via feat (plus rogues, obv)
    Combat Stamina, via feat; free for fighters. Very complicated...
    Variant disease and poison
    Wound thresholds

    When I can be bothered:
    Expanded skill uses
    Alternate Craft/Profession
    Fractional bonuses (Herolab does it for me, but my players aren't all as electric.)

    For Iron Gods, I'm thinking about making esoteric components mandatory, flavoring them as various Numerian substances that are necessary for local magicians.

    I'm intrigued by limited magic combined with overclocking, but my players might not feel as enthused...


    Starfinder Charter Superscriber

    I was really disappointed by the magic item options (besides scaling items, those are cool), so it inspired me to make my own 'Unchained' magic item rules to basically completely supplant the normal system of WBL.

    So...win, I suppose?

    I plan on using Background Skills for sure, the new classes will all be optional - though I'd seriously question why anyone would want the original Rogue...

    Probably using the Fighter only version of Combat Stamina.

    Using the new craft/profession rules.

    Scaling items.

    Fractional Base Bonuses.

    Still need to read poisons/diseases.

    Interested in Dynamic Magic Item Creation, but need to read more.

    All in all, I feel like the book was worth the money, but there's a lot in there I find useless, since things like Limited Spellcasting or Simplified Casting basically completely destroy the reasons I still play Pathfinder.


    so i'Ve also had a bit of time with the book now and here is my list of definitely included ones

    1) Combat Stamina, Free for fighter, feat for everyone else, with the added houserule that fighters get 2 bonus stamina points with every fighter bonus feat

    2) Fractional base bonuses: because that's how multiclssing should have always worked

    3) Variant Multiclassing, in Tandem with regular multiclassing

    4) Revised Action Economy: because finally martials can have nice things

    5) All Unchained Classes, with the added houserule that Rage spells, Skald and Bloodrager also get the new rage mechanics (scaled to their proportion of course), as well as the added houserule that Rogues can take Precise Shot (without needing to qualify) instead of Weapon Finesse at first level, and if they do, gain Dex to one ranged weapon's damage.

    6) Skill Unlocks

    7) Automatic Bonus Progression: Because goodbye christmas tree, goodbye tedious increasing of stats through buying slightly better magic items and tossing out old ones like they are worthless trash, goodbye slightly more absurdly rich adventurers. I'll use this with the added house rule that you can attune to masterwork weapons and armor at will. So martials can actually rotate weapons to things that might actually be appropriate for the situation.

    --------

    I might also use Monster creation and poisons and diseases, which I have not looked into in detail yet.

    Wound Thresholds I like for how it makes in-combat healing a viable, and necessary, strategy but I don't like how it also emphasizes the post-combat wand-spam healing so I might use it if I were to use something like EvilLincoln's Strain/Injury HP variant.


    The alternative Crafting rules... not that every campaign even HAS a crafter, but how can these even be considered 'optional' when compared to the rules in the CRB?


    Starfinder Charter Superscriber
    CraziFuzzy wrote:
    The alternative Crafting rules... not that every campaign even HAS a crafter, but how can these even be considered 'optional' when compared to the rules in the CRB?

    I like the streamlined nature, but the original rules will get most things done faster, unless you're making large batches of cheap things. Most GMs I know allowed batch crafting with the old rules anyway.

    That being said, I still like the new rules - I'm going to save so much on my Alchemical Dragon! ;-)


    Alternative; what if you could ready an action as a bonus reaction? Like, use an action to give yourself a reaction. Otherwise a feat with combat reflexes as a prerequisite because it is effectively generating bonus actions which is pretty valuable. I do think it should be contemplated because I've always bee in favor of Dex granting more actions as opposed to Dex to damage which feels boring and turf pushing to me.


    CraziFuzzy wrote:
    The alternative Crafting rules... not that every campaign even HAS a crafter, but how can these even be considered 'optional' when compared to the rules in the CRB?

    Small parties and simplicity.

    You need multiple party members ready to cover a huge range of skills, at fairly high DCs, under the new crafting system. And worse-- there needs to be a lot of redundancy. I wanted to like the system, but the more I looked at it the more I realized my table was just too small.

    For example, just for the basic two checks...

    -Spellcraft of 15+item CL or a specific Craft at 15+item CL. The Spellcraft is straightforward, but unless you have a very large party you won't be landing a critical success at all. This is not because a critical success is intrinsically hard, but just because this requirement alone can easily require the party to keep half a dozen or more skills at high ranks.
    -UMD 15+CL or meet all pre-reqs. Again, this creates a scenario where the Critical Success is not really a 'success', it's just hard to align the pieces together.

    Of course, we can expect a Wizard to put points into Spellcraft-- after all, he'd be doing it under the old system.

    The big difference is that he's generally going to need a Spellcraft nine points higher. He can't Take 10, and he can't get Aid Another bonuses. Skipping two pre-reqs is about the norm under the old system, so 15+caster level is roughly expected... but given the massive penalties for failing this roll (especially since you can't count on the Craft skill coming out successful), being even one low means you just wasted a lot of time and effort on the part of the party.

    For consideration's sake, these are all of the possible DCs you should be prepared for to make a simple Handy Haversack, assuming you don't have any of the class-specific challenges possible:

    Spellcraft 24 or Craft (Tailor) 24
    UMD 24 or Secret Chest [5th level Wizard/Sorcerer/Witch spell]
    Spellcraft 24 or Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 25
    Knowledge (Engineering) 25 or Craft (Tailor) 29
    Linguistics 20 or UMD 24
    Concentration 24 or Diplomacy 20/Intimidate 20
    Perform 29 or Bluff 29
    Fort save 29 or Craft (Tailor) 29
    Sense Motive 20 or Spellcraft 29
    Craft (Tailor) 24 or Sleight of Hand 24
    Knowledge (History) 24 or Spellcraft 29
    Knowledge (Local) 25 or Sleight of Hand 30
    Appraise 25 or Heal 30
    Handle Animal 30 or Spellcraft 24
    Knowledge 25 or Diplomacy 29
    Knowledge (Arcana) 29 or Knowledge (Geography) 25
    Spellcraft 24 or Perform 24
    Knowledge (Planes) 25 or Diplomacy 29
    Linguistics 20 or Perception 30
    Craft (Alchemy) 30 or Survival 25
    Knowledge (Nobility) 25 or UMD 29
    Linguistics 24 or UMD 29
    Disable Device 30 or Craft (Tailor) 29
    Spellcraft 29 or Knowledge (Arcana) 29

    To guarantee success then, this is the smallest skill list I can figure:
    Spellcraft 29
    Use Magical Device 29
    Diplomacy 29
    Craft (Tailor) 29
    Bluff 29
    Knowledge (Local) 25
    Appraise 25
    Knowledge (Geography) 25
    Linguistics 20
    Survival 25

    That's a lot of skills for an item that's a simple staple piece of gear that every PC probably wants-- and keep in mind that you'll need a lot of different Crafts if you plan to branch out far in what you can make.

    Now, some of these are expected, and besides the Craft most of the ones that aren't (Appraise, for example) are replaceable, albeit at higher DCs. But... what level are we expecting the party to be making Handy Haversacks?

    I know in the old system you could reliably make them at level three. In this system? I don't think I'd attempt it until level ten, looking at those numbers. And not without a lot of party planning to even get there.

    And of course, the system is a lot more complicated than "okay, I spend 1,000 gold, here are my bonuses, I'll have a Handy Haversack in two days". The old system can take a little time to pick up, but once you understand it figuring out crafting is extremely straightforward. Needing to make lots and lots of skill checks and having every item be distinct in random little ways, much less straightforward.

    Don't get me wrong. If I had a five, six man table, and wanted a game where magic items were rare? I would seriously consider this system. But I know that I gave this system a hard look and there are reasons why I said no.

    Paizo Employee Designer

    1 person marked this as a favorite.

    That's assuming that a group isn'y going to go about crafting an item unless they can find a way to auto-succeed on every challenge they might possibly make, then dynamic item creation is very much not intended to work that way (given that the challenges are examples, the GM might even make new challenges for such a group that use a different skill).

    The balance of costs assumes that you will fail sometimes, and be afraid to go for a critical success other times, and the point of the quirks, perks, and flaws is for there to be uncertainty and differences. You pretty much can't completely destroy the item unless you go for a critical success on one of the dangerous challenges (with the exception of the final challenge, which has no check if you have the prereqs), so it's not like you're sunk if you fail a few times.

    In particular, the ones with high DCs tend to also have low failure penalties. For example, you can remove Knowledge (geography) from your list entirely in exchange for a 4% chance of encountering a challenge that you will always fail, but that will simply add 3 days to the craft time and a quirk. You can remove Linguistics 20 and you'll just wind up taking 3 extra days (not even any quirks) whenever you hit the 4% chance of a rare reference (and probably somebody has +10 or more Perception in your party anyway, so you'll still have some chance of saving 1 day instead). Etc.

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