On who Loras was competing against on horse and off, knights go through years of training, drill and sparring and fighting.
Then he beat them, over and over.
He was not competing against commoners or barely trained warriors.
If you are certain Loras can't be over level 6, how could I persuade you otherwise?
On who Loras was competing against on horse and off, knights go through years of training, drill and sparring and fighting.
Then he beat them, over and over.
He was not competing against commoners or barely trained warriors.
Which makes them a whopping...Fighter 2 or something.
Look at what members of each class are capable of. look at what the characters achieve.
They simply don't line up with high level characters in any sense.
You can't convince anyone you're correct because you've made no coherent points as to why you think you're correct, beyond "but EXP", which is really beside the point considering not every game even uses EXP, and ASoIaF certainly doesn't.
Converting the characters to PF does not mean applying the logic of metagame constructs like EXP to their universe. It's looking at what they can DO and then statting up a PF character who can accomplish the same things.
For every character, level 6 or below is the lowest level needed to do that, so that's what they are.
There are characters that have had the magic to control CR 15 dragons as animal companions.
Drogon is the biggest dragon in the series and at this point he's about the size of a horse. He was nearly killed by the Sons of the Harpy throwing spears. Hardly what I'd call a high level threat.
A Large dragon ranges between CR 6 and CR 10 depending on the color. Even a CR 10 dragon isn't outside the realm of possibility for a 6th level party.
Balerion, the largest dragon in the setting's history, was a Colossal creature (described as able to swallow a mammoth whole). Nobody defeated it. It eventually died of old age after helping Aegon Targarion subjugate an entire continent.
If Bronn is 12th level, then Drogon is what? CR 16?
Which makes the Sons of the Harpy all 10th or 12th level characters?
Come on now.
On who Loras was competing against on horse and off, knights go through years of training, drill and sparring and fighting.
Then he beat them, over and over.
He was not competing against commoners or barely trained warriors.
Which makes them a whopping...Fighter 2 or something.
Look at what members of each class are capable of. look at what the characters achieve.
They simply don't line up with high level characters in any sense.
You can't convince anyone you're correct because you've made no coherent points as to why you think you're correct, beyond "but EXP", which is really beside the point considering not every game even uses EXP, and ASoIaF certainly doesn't.
Converting the characters to PF does not mean applying the logic of metagame constructs like EXP to their universe. It's looking at what they can DO and then statting up a PF character who can accomplish the same things.
For every character, level 6 or below is the lowest level needed to do that, so that's what they are.
Nope, Loras was besting level 2 fighters (and cavaliers) and experienced professionals higher than lowly level 2. Best in the land with a lance, but can't be above level 6, even if he has been beating others around that level consistently? I find this a very strange position to take.
I'll take one last shot at this and detach it from ASOF.
If you were running a game involving knights and tournaments, what level would you make the best lancer in the kingdom?
I would put it at somewhere around 10. What about you?
Nope, Loras was besting level 2 fighters (and cavaliers) and experienced professionals higher than lowly level 2. Best in the land with a lance, but can't be above level 6, even if he has been beating others around that level consistently? I find this a very strange position to take.
Its not that he can't be. Its that he doesn't need to be.
XP is arbitrary and doesn't translate. It cannot be used as a metric or explanation of ability for anything not designed inside the system
You have to look at the actual described actions of the characters and then translate those into mechanical terms.
The reason Loras is probably below 6th level is because he doesn't need to be any higher to do the things he is described as doing. Its that simple.
If you were running a game involving knights and tournaments, what level would you make the best lancer in the kingdom?
I would put it at somewhere around 10. What about you?
That depends entirely on what I wanted the best lancer in the kingdom to be able to do.
If the setting was gritty and close to reality and I wanted the lancer to be able to routinely kick the butts of other fairly realistic people, I'd probably have the best lancer in the kingdom be 5th level.
If the setting was based on classical mythology and I wanted the best lancer in the kingdom to be able to ride out and skewer dragons like St. George, i'd probably make them tenth level.
If it was a high fantasy game and I wanted the best lancer in the kingdom to wield a dragonlance from the back of a gold wyrm, I'd probably make them a 16th level character.
Just because Conan is described as being unbeatable in a fight doesn't mean he's a 20th level character. The things he's described as doing don't support that. A better explanation of Conan being unbeatable in a fight is that he's a 7th level character in a setting where almost nobody in the world gets above 5th level.
The reason why 6th level is the benchmark is because that is the cusp at which characters in the game start breaking away from what is physically possible in the real world. Past that and the things the characters start being able to do are beyond the scope of realism, which is great if that's the kind of story you're telling.
A Song of Ice and Fire is not that kind of story.
Nope, Loras was besting level 2 fighters (and cavaliers) and experienced professionals higher than lowly level 2. Best in the land with a lance, but can't be above level 6, even if he has been beating others around that level consistently? I find this a very strange position to take.Its not that he can't be. Its that he doesn't need to be.
XP is arbitrary and doesn't translate. It cannot be used as a metric or explanation of ability for anything not designed inside the system
You have to look at the actual described actions of the characters and then translate those into mechanical terms.
The reason Loras is probably below 6th level is because he doesn't need to be any higher to do the things he is described as doing. Its that simple.
Now you are trying to say he is "probably below 6th level"? What, so he isn't even up to two attacks? A renowned swordsman and very respected knight due to his expertise in the tourneys and he can't even fight two people at once because you assign him as below sixth level.
Bronn & Oberyn are capable of taking down multiple opponents at once, as is Jorah (when he gets going, sometimes it seems he prefers being knocked about it seems), as is Brienne who minces through rapists, soldiers and knights. Two at once was easy for Barristan, in the books and in the show (he got absolutely swarmed in the show and that was his downfall). Of course Barristan has the accomplishment of blitzing a castle, which couldn't be done with only one attack per round against numerous attacks, but if you want to believe 5 is the limit that is your wrong take on it.
The combat system is an abstraction. Don't get hung up on numbers of attacks.
The Challenge Rating system is really the only metric we have to measure these things.
The dire lion thing earlier was a great example of how these kinds of translations can (and pretty much have to be) handled.
If a Dire Lion is a dangerous challenge the character is 5th level. That's what the system means. It is the only way it makes sense. If you want to make Bronn a 12th level character, that means he can take down an entire pride of dire lions, by himself without breaking a sweat.
That doesn't sound like the Bronn I've read about.
Nope, Loras was besting level 2 fighters (and cavaliers) and experienced professionals higher than lowly level 2. Best in the land with a lance, but can't be above level 6, even if he has been beating others around that level consistently? I find this a very strange position to take.Its not that he can't be. Its that he doesn't need to be.
XP is arbitrary and doesn't translate. It cannot be used as a metric or explanation of ability for anything not designed inside the system
You have to look at the actual described actions of the characters and then translate those into mechanical terms.
The reason Loras is probably below 6th level is because he doesn't need to be any higher to do the things he is described as doing. Its that simple.
Now you are trying to say he is "probably below 6th level"? What, so he isn't even up to two attacks? A renowned swordsman and very respected knight due to his expertise in the tourneys and he can't even fight two people at once because you assign him as below sixth level.
Bronn & Oberyn are capable of taking down multiple opponents at once, as is Jorah (when he gets going, sometimes it seems he prefers being knocked about it seems), as is Brienne who minces through rapists, soldiers and knights. Two at once was easy for Barristan, in the books and in the show (he got absolutely swarmed in the show and that was his downfall). Of course Barristan has the accomplishment of blitzing a castle, which couldn't be done with only one attack per round against numerous attacks, but if you want to believe 5 is the limit that is your wrong take on it.
You do realize that cleave and greater cleave/cleaving finish allows you to attack multiple targets at once, right? Did you also know that if you use the lunge feat in conjunction with greater cleave it allows you to potentially strike down over a dozen targets with a single standard action?
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Arthur Dayne plox.
On who Loras was competing against on horse and off, knights go through years of training, drill and sparring and fighting.
Then he beat them, over and over.
He was not competing against commoners or barely trained warriors.
Which makes them a whopping...Fighter 2 or something.
Look at what members of each class are capable of. look at what the characters achieve.
They simply don't line up with high level characters in any sense.
You can't convince anyone you're correct because you've made no coherent points as to why you think you're correct, beyond "but EXP", which is really beside the point considering not every game even uses EXP, and ASoIaF certainly doesn't.
Converting the characters to PF does not mean applying the logic of metagame constructs like EXP to their universe. It's looking at what they can DO and then statting up a PF character who can accomplish the same things.
For every character, level 6 or below is the lowest level needed to do that, so that's what they are.
Nope, Loras was besting level 2 fighters (and cavaliers) and experienced professionals higher than lowly level 2. Best in the land with a lance, but can't be above level 6, even if he has been beating others around that level consistently? I find this a very strange position to take.
I'll take one last shot at this and detach it from ASOF.
If you were running a game involving knights and tournaments, what level would you make the best lancer in the kingdom?
I would put it at somewhere around 10. What about you?
The answer to that question relies on how high level everyone else in the kingdom is.
Given that everyone who isn't a main character in the series doesn't do anything at all spectacular, they don't need to be high level.
You seem to assume "professional" means "high level". Which isn't the case.
A level 1 Fighter with the Elite Array is still better at fighting than the average person. A level 2 Fighter is MUCH better.
They're professionals.
A level 6 Fighter is EXCEPTIONAL. Miles better than any other normal human.
In a series that is "like reality" for the most part, where even the best fighters are merely human, there is ZERO reason for anybody to be higher than 6th level.
Everything an extremely skilled human can accomplish can be done by a 6th level character.
Artificially inflating that for no reason doesn't make any sense.
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I could see a place for low, mid, and high level builds depending on the role the character is meant to play in a particular campaign. Maybe a 15th level version of Bronn who could kill all of Ramsay Bolton's dogs while dressed in his underwear and wielding a ball peen hammer as an improvised weapon really wouldn't be a great fit for the books or the HBO show, but a 6th level version of the Mountain who just barely scares the PCs when they're low level might not be a great fit for "scariest swordsman in the kingdom" in a lot of campaigns either, especially if the DM has some sort of climactic faceoff against the Mountain planned for levels 10+
As an aside, I guess 6th level is probably about the highest level where jumping off a cliff or jumping out of an airplane would be more likely than not to kill a raging Unchained Barbarian. By 10th level most martial PCs would probably survive such a jump and a lot of them literally couldn't be killed by it without DM fiat or the rarely used "massive damage" rule (which would probably create a 5% chance of dying). I'm not sure whether this could be better used as an argument that 6th level represents the upper bounds of reality or that the falling rules are a little silly.
We used to have a great pamphlet with alternate rules for lava. It had a page or two of fluff and then a rules section which said something like, "If you fall into lava you're dead." I'd expect those alternate rules might likely apply in a game system seeking to closely emulate ASOIF, but the base Pathfinder rules aren't such a system.
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Just my $.02.
Making it even worse is the simple fact that most people don't even have the elite array, while some of these characters have fairly epic stats.
As has been discussed, the Mountain has unreal strength and con, and a decent dex, to boot.
I would argue that Jamie Lannister, Khal Drogo, Ser Barriston, Bronn, and most of the big-name characters likely have better than even the elite array - probably 20 points or better - and that makes a huge difference when most people are stuck with the NPC array and NPC classes.
Given good armor (masterwork full plate, in the case of someone like Ser Barriston) and weapons, a well-statted 5th or 6th level fighter (or cavalier, or what have you) can walk through droves of peon NPCs of 1st-3rd levels. Before breakfast.
As an aside, I guess 6th level is probably about the highest level where jumping off a cliff or jumping out of an airplane would be more likely than not to kill a raging Unchained Barbarian. By 10th level most martial PCs would probably survive such a jump and a lot of them literally couldn't be killed by it without DM fiat or the rarely used "massive damage" rule (which would probably create a 5% chance of dying). I'm not sure whether this could be better used as an argument that 6th level represents the upper bounds of reality or that the falling rules are a little silly.
Clearly that means Sansa and Theon are at least 7th level, right? ;P
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As an aside, I guess 6th level is probably about the highest level where jumping off a cliff or jumping out of an airplane would be more likely than not to kill a raging Unchained Barbarian. By 10th level most martial PCs would probably survive such a jump and a lot of them literally couldn't be killed by it without DM fiat or the rarely used "massive damage" rule (which would probably create a 5% chance of dying). I'm not sure whether this could be better used as an argument that 6th level represents the upper bounds of reality or that the falling rules are a little silly.Clearly that means Sansa and Theon are at least 7th level, right? ;P
I could see a place for low, mid, and high level builds depending on the role the character is meant to play in a particular campaign. Maybe a 15th level version of Bronn who could kill all of Ramsay Bolton's dogs while dressed in his underwear and wielding a ball peen hammer as an improvised weapon really wouldn't be a great fit for the books or the HBO show, but a 6th level version of the Mountain who just barely scares the PCs when they're low level might not be a great fit for "scariest swordsman in the kingdom" in a lot of campaigns either, especially if the DM has some sort of climactic faceoff against the Mountain planned for levels 10+
As an aside, I guess 6th level is probably about the highest level where jumping off a cliff or jumping out of an airplane would be more likely than not to kill a raging Unchained Barbarian. By 10th level most martial PCs would probably survive such a jump and a lot of them literally couldn't be killed by it without DM fiat or the rarely used "massive damage" rule (which would probably create a 5% chance of dying). I'm not sure whether this could be better used as an argument that 6th level represents the upper bounds of reality or that the falling rules are a little silly.
We used to have a great pamphlet with alternate rules for lava. It had a page or two of fluff and then a rules section which said something like, "If you fall into lava you're dead." I'd expect those alternate rules might likely apply in a game system seeking to closely emulate ASOIF, but the base Pathfinder rules aren't such a system.
Yeah, if six is the limit for everyone else, all the players have to do is get past six and they are better than everyone else. So that presents a challenge to any long-running ASOF campaign.
On levels and bab, did anyone else notice how Ramsay shot down 4 soldiers in 12 seconds? Serious evil ranger that guy. At least sixth level, could be higher.
Also get to see him rocking some very nice twf action.
A Ranger without all the main archery Feats no less. Rapid Shot + Manyshot and you can take 4 shots in a single round, even.
...I could see a place for low, mid, and high level builds depending on the role the character is meant to play in a particular campaign. Maybe a 15th level version of Bronn who could kill all of Ramsay Bolton's dogs while dressed in his underwear and wielding a ball peen hammer as an improvised weapon really wouldn't be a great fit for the books or the HBO show, but a 6th level version of the Mountain who just barely scares the PCs when they're low level might not be a great fit for "scariest swordsman in the kingdom" in a lot of campaigns either, especially if the DM has some sort of climactic faceoff against the Mountain planned for levels 10+
As an aside, I guess 6th level is probably about the highest level where jumping off a cliff or jumping out of an airplane would be more likely than not to kill a raging Unchained Barbarian. By 10th level most martial PCs would probably survive such a jump and a lot of them literally couldn't be killed by it without DM fiat or the rarely used "massive damage" rule (which would probably create a 5% chance of dying). I'm not sure whether this could be better used as an argument that 6th level represents the upper bounds of reality or that the falling rules are a little silly.
We used to have a great pamphlet with alternate rules for lava. It had a page or two of fluff and then a rules section which said something like, "If you fall into lava you're dead." I'd expect those alternate rules might likely apply in a game system seeking to closely emulate ASOIF, but the base Pathfinder rules aren't such a system.
Yeah, if six is the limit for everyone else, all the players have to do is get past six and they are better than everyone else. So that presents a challenge to any long-running ASOF campaign.
On levels and bab, did anyone else notice how Ramsay shot down 4 soldiers in 12 seconds? Serious evil ranger that guy. At least sixth level, could be higher.
Also get to see him rocking some very
I heartily agree. There has been some discussion on the power of favored enemy: human in humanocentric low fantasy games. Ramsay (the psycho) has a very strong build for the setting. Fitting as he is a predator of man.
Just my $.02.
Making it even worse is the simple fact that most people don't even have the elite array, while some of these characters have fairly epic stats.
As has been discussed, the Mountain has unreal strength and con, and a decent dex, to boot.
I would argue that Jamie Lannister, Khal Drogo, Ser Barriston, Bronn, and most of the big-name characters likely have better than even the elite array - probably 20 points or better - and that makes a huge difference when most people are stuck with the NPC array and NPC classes.
Hmm... I think besides the Mountain you might be able to reflect everyone with 10 points each.
Jamie Lannister; Str 14, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 12
Khal Drogo; Str 14, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 13
Ser Barriston; Str 13, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 11
Bronn; Str 12, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10
They aren't amazing, but I think their higher levels can be the item that makes them legendary.
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I doubt that Sansa or Theon would be well represented as Barbarians. If she were even a 1st level Sorcerer they could have used Feather Fall though. It could be useful for the Wall up at Castle Black too, but despite fighting like a Wizard poor Sam has no spells - at least not yet...
(somewhere in my imagination)
Sam: "I'm a 1st level Magic-User with no spells, thanks, George..."
GRRM: "We gave you a cute wildling!"
Sam: "And a kid to support!"
GRRM: "A guy as fat as us with a girl as cute as that should stop complaining."
Sam: "Ok, I want a Fireball by Season 7 though - Fire-fricking-ball! And don't go killing Gillie!"
GRRM: "Really? You expect that guarantee from ME?"
*Sansa rages. Jumps off the castle*
If Sam the slayer learns magic at the citadel, now that magic is coming back to that world, many chuckles will be had.
...Except they are. I've read the books. I've watched the show.
Nobody does anything spectacular. Bumping them to a 15 or 20 (stretching it) Point Buy might be correct, but nobody is superhuman in the least.
These stat arrays are unexceptional compared to most PCs in Pathfinder...but they're plenty exceptional for NPCs, the average of which is built on a 3 Point Buy.
I've read the books. I've watched the show.
Nobody does anything spectacular.
Clearly has not read the books or seen the show with a comment like that.
Clearly has not read the books or seen the show with a comment like that.I've read the books. I've watched the show.
Nobody does anything spectacular.
"Kills a bunch of dudes in a sword fight" is something real people can do and have done. It's something action heroes certainly can do and have done (which, really, is the metric Pathfinder is based on. It's not a model of reality, it's a model of fictional reality. Game of Thrones is much the same way. It's "realistic" only to a certain point.).
Maybe you and I were reading something different. I read a bunch of dudes doing things that are exemplary, but within the realm of human possibility.
You apparently read a bunch of dudes who could go mano e mano with a Young Adult Red Dragon and expect to come out on top.
Except, oh wait, that was disproven by the books themselves whoops
If someone comes out and whips Drogon's ass 1 on 1, or hell, even 4 on 1, I'll believe they're level 12.
Until then...nah.
I've already shown how they all fit, very neatly, with a good bit of wiggle room at level 6. That is the maximum level needed to encompass everything one of these characters does during the series.
I've done my work, run the numbers, and come to a conclusion for a possible conversion based on that.
Give me something of similar concrete value to support your position based on what they actually DO, not what metagame logic like But EXP though" would dictate.
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I'm on the other side of the fence on the stats issue. I think most ASOIF characters would have to be built on at least a 20 point buy.
Those numbers are things we can judge more objectively. Specifically for things like strength.
The person who played the mountain is literally one of the strongest men in the world. For a while he held the title. Right now he's number three, and looking to take back the number one spot again this year. His strength, in Pathfinder terms, is somewhere around 26.
Jason Momoa is also incredibly strong. Quick too. He does his own stunt work. I've seen most of the shows and movies he's done and I make a point to watch every behind the scenes stunt and fight video I can get my hands on. (I am a professional fight and stunt coordinator). I've seen the work he's done and can vouch that those things aren't easy. I'd put his strength at around 17. Maybe 18. Dex probably 14 or 16.
The other actors I don't really know enough about to judge beyond the fact that nearly all of them are in exceptional physical shape.
Unfortunately Bronn's duel is such a small sample size that it's hard to take much from it. I'd say he hit Sir Vardis 2 out of 3 times and succeeded in a trip attack. (Implying that he likely has combat expertise and improved trip) But going along this route I would say he can reliable hit AC 16 or 17. Nothing huge there but he may also use expertise and/or fighting defensively to represent a lighter fighting style. That could estimate his full attack bonus to +8 or 10. Not huge but he likely isn't using a mw weapon either.
Also, in Pathfinder these dragons are much more likely to be drakes and not dragons. Much easier foes and more believable for a low fantasy world.
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Also, in Pathfinder these dragons are much more likely to be drakes and not dragons. Much easier foes and more believable for a low fantasy world.
Granted, that makes it even less likely that the characters are high level, given that the dragons are such terrible foes to essentially everyone in the world.
Based on the rules for Carrying Capacity and data from The World's Strongest Man I'd say that the guy who plays the Mountain probably has a Str in the 20 - 22 range. His overhead "loglift" was 424 lbs. Str 20 allows you to lift 400 lbs over your head. Str 21 allows 460. His "tire deadlift" was 994 lbs. That matches Str 22's maximum "lift off the ground" limit of 1020 lbs better than Str 21's limit of 920 lbs, but the lift was performed with wrist straps, which I'd guess might be a tool which grants a +1 or even +2 in Pathfinder terms.
Of course the actor and the character aren't the same, but Str 20 seems like a pretty good starting point for a Pathfinder version of the Mountain (starting at 1st level and building from there)
The Mountain's personal records
Dude put a ship's mast on his shoulders and walked 5 steps with it. It weighed 1,433 lbs (650 kg)
To me that sounds like "A character can lift as much as double his maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it."
That puts his regular max load a little more than 700 pounds (a statistic supported by his squat weight).
That puts his strength at 24.
Still lower than I thought it might be, but amazing by the standards of real life.
Balerion the Black Dread was not a drake. It was a full on adult, perhaps older, dragon. Drogon is probably a young adult dragon at this point. The dragons of old in ASOIAF used to decimate entire armies at will and there are characters who have both killed and dominated these beasts.Unfortunately Bronn's duel is such a small sample size that it's hard to take much from it. I'd say he hit Sir Vardis 2 out of 3 times and succeeded in a trip attack. (Implying that he likely has combat expertise and improved trip) But going along this route I would say he can reliable hit AC 16 or 17. Nothing huge there but he may also use expertise and/or fighting defensively to represent a lighter fighting style. That could estimate his full attack bonus to +8 or 10. Not huge but he likely isn't using a mw weapon either.
Also, in Pathfinder these dragons are much more likely to be drakes and not dragons. Much easier foes and more believable for a low fantasy world.
How about if I say 'drake', like a drake that has been advanced to colossus and has a breath weapon powerful enough to melt the largest castle. I don't mean to belittle Balerion but ASOIAF dragons do not cast spells, don't seem as intelligent as PF dragons and don't resemble them physically either (4 limbs, not 6)
"Balerion was the largest of all the Targaryen dragons, his teeth were as long as swords and his jaws big enough to swallow a mammoth whole.[4] His fire was as black as his scales, his wingspan so vast that entire towns would fall under his shadow when he passed overhead.[5]"
"Balerion died of old age"
So, nobody killed Balerion, and likewise he wasn't "dominated" (or nothing indicated he was). He was likely done just as the dragons in the series are: Raised from an egg. Earning a reature's trust over time is not the same as dominating it.
And Drogon is still alive, so...no. There are not characters who have killed EITHER of these beasts.
Someone hurt Drogon severely, but the man was killed as I recall from one burst of flame, so roughly damage (at the highest....Young Adult kinda looks iffy now I think about it given how big Balerion is. I don't think Drogon has reached Huge size yet, which Young Adults are.).
As a few folks have pointed out, Drogon isn't a great fit for a Pathfinder "dragon" . Still, if I had to convert him to Pathfinder as a "dragon" and wanted minimal hassle I guess I'd make him a Young Red Dragon since this would be the youngest age category which makes him large enough for Daenerys to ride. Using some sort of custom monster might work out better from a simulation standpoint.
If Drogon is a Young Red in Pathfinder terms then the Sons of the Harpy have pretty sharp aim in Pathfinder terms. Of course nothing in HBO's show was being done in Pathfinder terms, and if you ratchet up the SotH's levels to let them hit Drogon consistently then you'd have to question why a SotH is so easy to kill with a single stab. Then I guess you'd have to make Drogon wimpier so low level SotH could hit him or explore some other options like the 4e "minion" system or the wounds and vitality system from the older Star Wars d20 game where only PCs and major NPCs had vitality and mooks always got hit directly in their Con.
My feeling is that wounds and vitality with defense bonuses and armor as DR might work a little better from a simulationist standpoint but most tables aren't really that worried about simulation and don't want to fiddle with the rules that much (or would just find a different game if they felt it was that important)
@Doomed Hero - The log carry doesn't involve lifting the log off the ground (like the tire deadlift or regular deadlift) or putting it over your head (like the loglift). I focused on the events which I felt best fit the descriptions given in the rules for Carrying Capacity, which specify how much you can lift off the ground and how much you can lift over your head. I'd rate the squat exercise as somewhere between those since you aren't really lifting the weight off the ground or over your head and you're able to isolate the effort more to your legs and trunk. Anyhow, pegging Mr. Bjornsson's Str at around 20 would play nicely into the idea that 20 is the "maximum" Str for a normal human without a bunch of heroic class levels. I was pleasantly surprised to see that the rules for what a Str 20 character can lift off the ground (which I'd call a dead lift) or overhead seem to be roughly on par with established world records.
I think the fact that we have people rating the Strength of a real world person with measured statistic from 20 all the way up to 26 in Pathfinder terms seems to implies that coming to an agreement about less defined (and completely fictional) stuff like classes and levels would be very difficult. Nobody in the real world or Game of Thrones has any class levels.
I don't see much of a resemblance between drogon and a young red dragon. Drogon can't speak common, doesn't have magic, and doesn't even have as many limbs. In pathfinder terms, it'd be a drake.
As a few folks have pointed out, Drogon isn't a great fit for a Pathfinder "dragon" . Still, if I had to convert him to Pathfinder as a "dragon" and wanted minimal hassle I guess I'd make him a Young Red Dragon since this would be the youngest age category which makes him large enough for Daenerys to ride. Using some sort of custom monster might work out better from a simulation standpoint.
If Drogon is a Young Red in Pathfinder terms then the Sons of the Harpy have pretty sharp aim in Pathfinder terms. Of course nothing in HBO's show was being done in Pathfinder terms, and if you ratchet up the SotH's levels to let them hit Drogon consistently then you'd have to question why a SotH is so easy to kill with a single stab. Then I guess you'd have to make Drogon wimpier so low level SotH could hit him or explore some other options like the 4e "minion" system or the wounds and vitality system from the older Star Wars d20 game where only PCs and major NPCs had vitality and mooks always got hit directly in their Con.
My feeling is that wounds and vitality with defense bonuses and armor as DR might work a little better from a simulationist standpoint but most tables aren't really that worried about simulation and don't want to fiddle with the rules that much (or would just find a different game if they felt it was that important)
@Doomed Hero - The log carry doesn't involve lifting the log off the ground (like the tire deadlift or regular deadlift) or putting it over your head (like the loglift). I focused on the events which I felt best fit the descriptions given in the rules for Carrying Capacity, which specify how much you can lift off the ground and how much you can lift over your head. I'd rate the squat exercise as somewhere between those since you aren't really lifting the weight off the ground or over your head and you're able to isolate the effort more to your legs and trunk. Anyhow, pegging Mr. Bjornsson's Str at around 20 would play nicely into the idea that 20 is the "maximum" Str for a normal...
The sons of the harpy are marvelous at backstabbing supposedly elite soldiers.
I'm starting to think they have some fantastic training program going on... Those guys train to win.
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The sons of the harpy are marvelous at backstabbing supposedly elite soldiers.
I'm starting to think they have some fantastic training program going on... Those guys train to win.
But they die when a dwarf with no combat draining stabs them once.
Incorrect. Tyrion has training and experience in multiple battles. Read the books. Far earlier in the series Tyrion kills someone in very strange circumstances, while two-handing a shield and beating them to death. He also has a favourite battleaxe, which he gave to Pod.
Also 1 vs. 1 he bested a knight in the books. No joke. Tyrion is a survivor.
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Since this is the thread on the subject I need and not to old.
I think that most people are in between level 1 to 6 in Westeros. Looking at NPC from our on Pathfinder
City Guard, Experienced soldier, Town Watch CR 1
Warrior 3, Fighter 2 or Ranger 2; 400XP
Noble Scion, Professional Slaver, Skilled Sniper CR 2
Fighter 3, Warrior 4, Aristocrat 4, Ranger 3, Rogue 3; 600XP
Border Guard, Crusader, Elite Cavalry (Household Knight), Noble CR 3
Aristocrat 5, Fighter 4, Ranger 4; 800XP
Grizzled/Professional Mercenary, Longboat Captain (Ironborn) CR 4
Warrior 6; CR 1,200
Swordlord
Fighter 6; 1,600
23,000XP to lvl 6 - normal
35,000XP to lvl 6 - slow
Using Loras multiple Jousting experience is not as much as you think.
Loras is 17 at the War of the 5 Kings, since he was born in 282AC. The average squire is Knighted at 14ish or 15 so he has 2 or 3 years of a knight, he is very good looking and is from a powerful noble family which adds fuel to his "awesomeness" when he really has 3 years worth of experience jousting and only 1 big tournament that we know of.
So he has only participated in 1 Big tourney which is the Hand's Tourney from the books.
A Big tourney which are far and not to close in between have about 64 (sometimes 40 in the late middle ages which is about the times represented in Westeros) participants traditionally that means he joust 5 times (32,16,8,4,2), not all his opponents are great, so maybe the ones in the final for and final are decent. Local tourneys cannot accommodate that amount of people so they are probably smaller which he might have gotten maybe 3 fights give or take, so I don't deny he has fought through many local tourneys around the reach, crownlands, riverlands and stormlands, but that is hardly a TONS OF XP. Just traveling for tournament to tournament should have taken 1/3 of those 3 years in the best of cases.
The same pathfinder setting places most equals to the characters in the series as NPC between lvl 1 and 6 (maybe even 7 for some special men).
The Mountain is a special case in his physical natural capabilities, not that he has 20 levels.
Dothrakis hunt white dire lions, called Hrakkar, while almost naked.
While I got the impression that Hrakkar are quite big, do you have any reference to them growing up to 15 feet long, like a dire lion? I can't remember that at all.
For Thoros and the "ressurection thing" I did not say resurrection, I said raise dead. In the story Beric has been killed multiple times. Not knocked down and roughed up a bit, but straight out killed multiple times. Thoros then brought him back.
Thoros is quite explicit in him not bringing Beric back. He is quite explicit in that he prays for divine intervention, never sure if it's gonna be there, and has been lucky that the Red God has raised Beric.
Up until his first prayer was answered, he didn't even really have faith in the Red God. Are you claiming he spent 8 levels as a "fallen" cleric?
Are you really saying he's a 9th level cleric? If he was, why wouldn't he be sure Beric would be raised? He could raise anyone several times per day with no uncertainity involved. Why would they ever have a trial by fire against the Hound? A simple Zone of Truth would have been far more effective.
If you portray him as a 9th level cleric, his behaviour in the books and show doesn't make sense. If you portray him as a low-to-mid-level warrior that's just been lucky with his prayers, it does make sense.
The sons of the harpy are marvelous at backstabbing supposedly elite soldiers.
I'm starting to think they have some fantastic training program going on... Those guys train to win.
Yes, maybe they're all 9th level due to some amazing secret training program so they can gang up and kill the 15th level elites and harm the large-sized advanced*8 CR17 dragon.
Or, they're generally 1st to 2nd level characters with the occacional 3-5th levels veterans, and manage to ambush and kill the elites that are around 6th level and in large masses manages to harm the CR9 young dragon.
And seriously, considering what they do, what is most likely? They don't do whirlwind attacks 'n' stuff, they stab someone with a knife a few times and they die. They don't use RS+MS to shoot 4 lethal arrows in 6 seconds, they throw a javelin.
Here's the thing:
If we imagine that most characters in the books are ~6th level or below (I won't say that no-one is slightly above it, but in general), yes, we have to make some concessions and some things that may not be statistically likely (Tyrion besting a knight in a one-on-one once being mostly luck, Thoros' prayers being answered being divine intervention).
In general though, it works pretty well. A few things might seem off, but they're the exception, not the norm.
If we imagine they are high-level characters though, often over 10th and sometimes over 13th level, there's just so.many.things. that don't make sense. Jamie as a 13th level having lost his hand shouldn't have any issues fighting regular enemies - he might kill them off just 2-3 per round instead of 3-4 but he should be in no real danger. Thoros as a 9th level cleric should be able to wind walk and summon lesser angels. Gregor Clegane as a high-level barbarian shouldn't fear any poison, unless we rewrite the poison rules. Khal Drogo as a high-level character shouldn't have issues with disease/wound infections. Heck, hunting a Hrakkar - even if we assume it's a dire lion, which I'm skeptical towards - shouldn't at any point be a noticable risk, he could regularly brawl a pair of them with his bare hands.
It just works horribly badly, and requires inflating the levels of the common folk as well (as seen by the example of the Sons of the Harpy) through explanations and excuses completely without basis in the books (secret elite training camps, seriously?).