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This is in reference to the advanced rogue talent Skill Mastery, which states:
The rogue becomes so confident in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so.
There is evidence for either one, since the wording states that Skill Mastery allows you to take ten on skills even when distractions wouldn't allow you to, although Use Magic Device says you can't take 10 on it no matter what.
The issue is that stress and distractions aren't making Use Magic Device unable to take 10, the skill itself is stating that you can't take 10 with it.
So yeah, what's the ruling here?
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Per the current wording, I don't see how you can get Skill Mastery giving Take 10 to UMD. It only removes the restriction on taking 10 while distracted/under stress, while UMD is barred from taking 10 under any circumstances.
That said, I agree with Nicos that it wouldn't exactly ruin game balance to change the wording so that Rogues can take 10 on UMD.
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and,
is Skill Mastery the specific case that overrides the general ban on taking 10 with UMD,
or,
is Use Magic Device's ban on taking 10 the specific case that overrides SM's general take 10 privilege?
plus
At 10th level, the bard can use any skill, even if the skill normally requires him to be trained. At 16th level, the bard considers all skills to be class skills. At 19th level, the bard can take 10 on any skill check, even if it is not normally allowed.
is this ability the same or simply better?
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This is in reference to the advanced rogue talent Skill Mastery, which states:
The rogue becomes so confident in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so.There is evidence for either one, since the wording states that Skill Mastery allows you to take ten on skills even when distractions wouldn't allow you to, although Use Magic Device says you can't take 10 on it no matter what.
The issue is that stress and distractions aren't making Use Magic Device unable to take 10, the skill itself is stating that you can't take 10 with it.
So yeah, what's the ruling here?
You can only break the rules specifically allowed. Skill Mastery does not say you can take 10 on any skill. It says you can take 10 even when stress or a distraction would not allow it. UMD's restriction has nothing to do with being stressed or distracted. UMD's rule is very specific, so it would have to be specifically called out and over ruled.
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I agree that Skill Mastery could have been worded more clearly. However, as you have been repeatedly shown there is nothing in the wording that "technically allows it."
With regard to your Unwavering Skill example, I'm reposting my argument from the other thread.
Unwavering Skill, deconstructed, says:
- If a skill is a class skill, you may always take 10 or 20 on that skill
- This ability even functions when you are threatened or in a hazardous situation
- Skills that don't allow you to take 10 or 20 are unaltered by this skill
If the last sentence of Unwavering Skill was not present, you would be able to take 10 or 20 on any class skill, regardless of whether it normally allowed it or not.
The relevant section of Skill Mastery, similarly deconstructed, says:
- Pick a number of skills
- When making a skill check with these skills, you may take 10 when stress and distractions would normally prohibit you from doing so
Notice that the language "You can always take 10" present in Unwavering Skill is conspicuously absent from Skill Mastery. That language is the only reason why the last sentence of Unwavering Skill was needed to prevent taking 10 on UMD. Because Skill Mastery does not have that language, it only adds the ability to take 10 when under duress. It does not change what skills you may take 10 with.
ITT something that just SCREAMS for Paizo's most passive agressive response:
"No reply required."
AKA "Seriously?"
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ITT something that just SCREAMS for Paizo's most passive agressive response:
"No reply required."
AKA "Seriously?"
Unlike every other time they posted that: that might work as a answer. The other times they do that, no one has any idea which answer they mean.
Unless Paizo devs declare otherwise, it should work as it did in 3.5.
Because you say so, I guess.
I also think that this is FAQ worthy because it comes up quite often.
I believe that the rules don't allow that but, at least during 3.5 when skill mastery was written, that the intent was to be able to work. The reason i believe this is that the 3.5 class of warlock (of complete arcane) had an ability that used the exact language of skill mastery but worked only on UMD.
Sure it wouldn't work, in the rules, even in 3.5 (since that part of UMD rules didn't change from 3.5 to PF) but i like to attribute that to bad choice of words for skill master and then using those same words for the worlock's ability and then using those same words for PF's skill mastery.
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If they intended it to work with UMD then they needed to write it differently. In fact UMD is the only skill that has a restriction besides stress/distraction that I can think of. All other skills allow you to take 10, assuming no stress or distractions.
Assuming the Devs knew what they were doing, why include the words stress and distraction in there if they just intended you to be able to take 10 all the time on any skill including UMD? To me, the fact that included stress and distraction specifically instead of wording it like the Bard Jack of All Trades ability is a signifier that they specifically worded the rogue ability to not include UMD in it. Because otherwise they should have just said a rogue can always take 10.
Unless Paizo devs declare otherwise, it should work as it did in 3.5.
If they didn't want it to, it's their failure for not modifying it in CRB or clarifying afterward.
Are the words exactly the same as 3.5?
If so do you have a link to a clarification?
A source will also count as evidence.
@Claxon
And as i have said the 3.5 worlock (from complete arcane) had an ability that read:
"Deceive Item (Ex): At 4th level and higher, a warlock has the ability to more easily commandeer magic items made for the use of other characters. When making a Use Magic Device check, a warlock can take 10 even if distracted or threatened."
Ok not exactly the same words as Skill Mastery's:
"even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so."
But it's the same issue, as written the Decieve item ability shouldn't work since in 3.5 the UMD had the same restrictions as in PF.
@wraithstrike
Rogue's Skill mastery in 3.5 here.
UMD during 3.5 here.
For the rogue that looks like a "no" in 3.5 also unless Sinful has a reference I don't know about or I just misunderstood what they wrote.
For the rogue that looks like a "no" in 3.5 also unless Sinful has a reference I don't know about or I just misunderstood what they wrote.
Yes i agree, but the thing is that reason for not working for the rogue is a reason for it not to work for the worlock.
This is in reference to the advanced rogue talent Skill Mastery, which states:
The rogue becomes so confident in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so.
I'm tossing on my FAQ vote but I don't understand how anyone can be confused about it. I don't understand how, but some people are, though so FAQ away.
It's really, really clear. It explicitly over-rides the rule prohibiting taking 10 when stress and distractions would prevent it.
^ if that's the case there shouldn't be the word "even" in the sentence. Skill Mastery should just read ..."she may take 10 if(or possibly when) stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so."
It's poorly worded, and the language technically allows it. It's consistent with the fundamental concept of skill checks and taking 10. UMD isn't specifically restricted by the text of Skill Mastery, like it is with: "Unwavering Skill (Ex): You can always take 10 or 20 on class skills, even if threatened or in a hazardous situation. You can't use this ability with skill checks that don't normally allow you to take 10 or take 20."
The only thing stopping it is the default rule on UMD, and conditional rules trump default rules.
It's certainly poorly written but your understanding of the phrase "even if" is incorrect. If they wanted you to be able to take 10 in all situations under all conditions, they would just say "she make take 10 in all situations."
"even if" doesn't provide a general example, it demonstrates the specific rule that's being over-written.
For the rogue that looks like a "no" in 3.5 also unless Sinful has a reference I don't know about or I just misunderstood what they wrote.Yes i agree, but the thing is that reason for not working for the rogue is a reason for it not to work for the worlock.
Could you take 10 on UMD in 3.5?
If the rule is "You can take 10 on UMD, except when distracted", then the "even while distracted" text is the part that is overriding the general rule on taking 10. In this case, you are exactly right: the warlock would not be able to take 10 on UMD in Pathfinder, because UMD in Pathfinder specifically says that you can't (which is a change from the 3.5 rule that is not covered by the warlock ability).
If the rule in 3.5 is "You cannot take 10 on UMD (even when you're not distracted)", then the text "you can take 10 on UMD" is the part that overrides the UMD rule. The "even when distracted" text then overrides the general rule on taking 10, and the warlock can A) take 10 on UMD and B) do this even when distracted (i.e., under conditions when he normally wouldn't be allowed to take 10).
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You guys aren't seeing the forest through the trees on the concept of taking 10 either.
Taking 10, is itself, the ability to use a skill when not distracted, see any above quote on Skill Rolls(it's worded effectively the same in CRB). A skill roll is the mechanical concept of stress and distraction.
The reason you can't take 10 on UMD is because the skill is intrinsically stressful and distracting, barring any other explanation.
I see nothing to support that. Since UMD also has a special clause on nat 1's maybe they made it more difficult to work with because they felt it would be more powerful than the other skills. In theory UMD could be much more powerful so I understand why they would think that.
For the rogue that looks like a "no" in 3.5 also unless Sinful has a reference I don't know about or I just misunderstood what they wrote.Yes i agree, but the thing is that reason for not working for the rogue is a reason for it not to work for the worlock.Could you take 10 on UMD in 3.5?
If the rule is "You can take 10 on UMD, except when distracted", then the "even while distracted" text is the part that is overriding the general rule on taking 10. In this case, you are exactly right: the warlock would not be able to take 10 on UMD in Pathfinder, because UMD in Pathfinder specifically says that you can't (which is a change from the 3.5 rule that is not covered by the warlock ability).
If the rule in 3.5 is "You cannot take 10 on UMD (even when you're not distracted)", then the text "you can take 10 on UMD" is the part that overrides the UMD rule. The "even when distracted" text then overrides the general rule on taking 10, and the warlock can A) take 10 on UMD and B) do this even when distracted (i.e., under conditions when he normally wouldn't be allowed to take 10).
No, not unless there is a dev quote that I am unaware of. Sinful has not provided one if it exist.
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Never go by the table, for one thing. They're often wrong.
Second, you keep posting that...and yet it's meaningless.
You're conflating "usually means" with "always means and the only reason for".
Just because rolling on a skill check USUALLY means you're under some sort of time pressure or distraction, and Taking 10 can be done when you AREN'T under pressure or distracted, does not mean that pressure and distraction are the ONLY reasons you can't Take 10.
In UMD's case, you can't Take 10 for the simple reason that it says you cannot, and Skill Mastery does nothing to remove that restriction.
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Barring an explanation, it logically must be taken at face value, since there are a number of logical inferences that can be made as to why.
Only one of which supports your interpretation.
It could be a balance concern.
It could be based on the fact that UMD is the only skill with a consequence for a Natural 1 failure.
We don't know.
What we do know is: "You cannot Take 10 on UMD."
So at this point, that is what you go by. No qualifying statement. No explanation.
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Given that UMD allows you to totally ignore class, race, proficiency and alignment restrictions then it is an immensely powerful skill - hence it is never a casual use of time.
The only class that gets even close to being able to take 10 on it is the 19th level bard who mechanically as well as "historically" are the Knowledge specialists. 10th level rogue just does not cut it I'm sorry to say especially as it does not say that it overrules specific limitations, unlike the 19th level bard ability which does.
I do concur that the wording is somewhat ambiguous and it would be nice to get a confirmation on this.
HOWEVER in saying this, one needs to look also if this is under PFS or home play. If it is under home play/table variation, then go with what the GM says, if it is under PFS always assume the less powerful interpretation and you will not be disappointed.(In my experience)
@Claxon
And as i have said the 3.5 worlock (from complete arcane) had an ability that read:
"Deceive Item (Ex): At 4th level and higher, a warlock has the ability to more easily commandeer magic items made for the use of other characters. When making a Use Magic Device check, a warlock can take 10 even if distracted or threatened."Ok not exactly the same words as Skill Mastery's:
"even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so."But it's the same issue, as written the Decieve item ability shouldn't work since in 3.5 the UMD had the same restrictions as in PF.
There's a difference however between the two.
Deceive Item specifically calls out UMD in it's description. Seeing as there is but one possible use the ability has, it can be inferred it works despite the wording being poor and not actually helping. This is RAI and not RAW. Rules as Interpreted vs. Rules as Written. An ability can function through RAI and could be broken if read as RAW.
So while you can infer the ability functions because it specifically calls out UMD, it does not actually function because of it's poor wording.
No matter the case, this debate essentially hinges on the belief that the ability bestows either the ability to take 10 AND do so under stress/distractions or simply the ability to be able to take 10 under stress/distractions.
I'm inclined to believe the latter as every skill in the game you can take 10 on without Skill Mastery. It is only Use Magic Device that is different from all the other skills in it's restriction of being unable to take 10 on.
It's the poor interpretation of the wording on UMD that is the issue, since an ability(Deceive Item) demonstrably undercuts the perceived absolute restriction on taking 10.
That ability ably demonstrates that the reason the restriction is in place is because it is a skill that is inherently distracting or threatening(i.e. stressful, pressuring), and inherently difficult to master(ala Skill Mastery, Jack of All Trades and Deceive Item).
That would be an opinion.
The only ability that without doubt allows you to take 10 on UMD is Jack of All Trades.
At 19th level, the bard can take 10 on any skill check, even if it is not normally allowed.
Deceive Item and Skill Mastery lack this particular bolded text. So upon further investigation, I am fairly certain that Skill Mastery does not in fact allow one to take 10 on UMD.
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I think using a class ability from a 3.5 splatbook to try and determine the RAI for a rule in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook is a pretty big stretch.
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It's the poor interpretation of the wording on UMD that is the issue, since an ability(Deceive Item) demonstrably undercuts the perceived absolute restriction on taking 10.
That ability ably demonstrates that the reason the restriction is in place is because it is a skill that is inherently distracting or threatening(i.e. stressful, pressuring), and inherently difficult to master(ala Skill Mastery, Jack of All Trades and Deceive Item).
You keep trying to use something from a different company, from a different version of the game, from a difference class that has absolutely no relevance to the question at hand here.
The warlock's ability didn't work as written, however it's intention is clear because it specifically calls out UMD. And though it is poorly worded, if it didn't bypass the normal restriction on taking 10 with UMD the ability literally did nothing. So, logically the had to be an idea of intent with the warlock's ability.
But skill mastery lets you choose from a variety of skills and select to use them with take 10 when distracted or stressed. It is not designed to work specifically with UMD, and as written in includes mentions of stress and distraction. If those were not meant to be meaningful restrictions then they could have just said "you can always take 10". But they didn't. Since UMD is the only skill with further restriction on taking 10 beyond stress and distraction there is no cause to believe that it functions to allow you to take 10 with UMD. Except wishful thinking. I'm not opposed to giving the rogue this ability, but that isn't what skill mastery does...at least at this time.
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Because what about "You cannot take 10 with this skill." is any way poorly written or difficult to understand.
Deceive Item as written didn't work. People had to make assumptions and use intentions about the skill to make it functional.
Even at that, Skill Mastery is written differently so referring to Deceive Item is irrelevant.
2) According to the list description, the intended function of Skill Mastery, in pathfinder, is to let you "take 10 at any time on certain skills".
Ah ah. No that is purely conjecture. You cannot assume the intention of anything unless providing extensive evidence.
As written, Skill Mastery allows one to take 10 under stress or distractions. This effect is the same for every single skill...except the discussed Use Magic Device in which it is debated on whether or not it also suddenly grants the ability to take 10 in the first place.
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UMD doesn't give a reason why you can't take 10. Barring an explanation, a logical inferrence is that the skill is innately stressful and distracting.
Assuming that someone can vet that table description as official, that's damning.
It does not have to give a reason. It just says you can't, and unless a rule says it bypasses the rule you want to ignore then you can not ignore that rule.
1) Something can be written simply and still fail to convey necessary information.
2) According to the list description, the intended function of Skill Mastery, in pathfinder, is to let you "take 10 at any time on certain skills".
Even at that, Skill Mastery is written differently so referring to Deceive Item is irrelevant.The only difference is the use of a synonym.
According to the 3.5 FAQ you could not take 10 with skill mastery in 3.5 for UMD, but the warlock could do so.
Paizo has the same wording. If they had intended to change the meaning the words would have been different.