A God's Alignment: How is Zon-Kuthon "Lawful" Evil?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Silver Crusade

I'm a big fan of most Pathfinder gods and Zon-Kuthon is no exception. His backstory, design and practices are all delightfully creepy and flavorful. What confuses me is why he is considered Lawful Evil. Reading through Inner Sea Gods, the only time he shows any kind of restraint is when dealing with Shelyn, and even then that protection does not extend to her clergy. This is not helped by how Kuthonites are usually described as insane and torturous psychopaths, looking more like worshippers of Rovagug with a BDSM streak. But this is not about PCs or NPCs, this is about the god himself being a kill-crazy psycho and being considered lawful.

Contrast with Asmodeus, who is of course lawful because he sticks to his word, his contracts are utterly binding, and he despises anything unpredictable or not willing to fall in line. Zon is so depraved he promotes placing moth larva in the eye sockets of Desnans and even ripped apart his own dad. Where is the restraint, the morals, the code, anything that resembles "law"?


Personally, I don't know, it does seem weird. This sure seems like it'd be a great question for the "Ask James Jacobs" thread over in the Off-Topic forum. He's not one to weigh in on rules, but the dude sure has answered a lot of flavor questions over there.

Maybe it's because while he's personally a nutjob, the things he represents are lawful? Or maybe because the very short history we know about him includes a truce with Shelyn and a deal with Aroden, both of which he held true to?

Overall, I'd say that at-best makes him NE, but hey, I didn't make the world...

...that's why I suggested you ask one of the guys who did.


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Because Kytons are Chain devils instead of chain demons.

I mean, I'm only guessing but that was probably the primary impetus, everything afterward is building off that. And to be fair, there are worse reasons. Whatever made the Kyton may be the same whatever that made him, and so both are lawful and orderly in their methodical exploration of pain, torture, and evil.

Edited to sound less rude.


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1. Zun Kuthon cut a deal with Abadar. Pretty stand up fellow.

2. Zun Kuthon's followers are of the ritualistic kind, with set rites and rigid customs. Dude wrote a book about this to get it 100% clear.

3. The Church of Zun Kuthon has a hierarchy, and each level has more power than the previous one. It's well organized.

4. Chains, bindings, law. The connection is there.

Why is everyone having such a hard time on this?

Grand Lodge

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Zon Kuthon's outlook is that pain, envy and loss, his portfolio, are inescapable truths of how the universe functions and operates, and wishes to dispel all illusions to the contrary. He is thorough and methodical in ensuring his vision of the world is made to be the only one that exists. It is all encompassing and concrete in form.

Secret Wizard raises several good points that stem from and loan to these details of Zon-Kuthon.

Liberty's Edge

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Zon Kuthon's very concerned with hierarchy and control. The entire country he rules (Nidal) is basically a totalitarian state in many ways. He also values loyalty and, as is demonstrated in the aforementioned bargain with Abadar, keeps his given word.

What's not Lawful about all that? His cultists don't tend towards the subtle...but neither did the Nazis, and they're sorta textbook Lawful Evil.


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I think ZK is an expy of the Hellraiser cenobites. Creatures with one goal in mind with a dedicated ruleset in how to achieve said objective, but their methods are so brutal that many of the followers tend to deviate from the norm. That is in the fault of the followers' characters and recruiting procedures, not in the ideology itself.

Quote:
What's not Lawful about all that? His cultists don't tend towards the subtle...but neither did the Nazis, and they're sorta textbook Lawful Evil.

Let us not go there. Deal? This will get messy.


Right, it has been stated in the comics that Cenobites are very interested in order that is enforced by fear and pain. One story had a cenobite lecture a human teacher on why she should stop telling students that 'Stepping on a crack won't break your mother's back.'

Another story had one cenobite get into trouble by deciding to be theatrical(he used to be an actor) when tormenting a person and this ended with the person's death when they were supposed to live while living 'properly'.

Liberty's Edge

Secret Wizard wrote:
Quote:
What's not Lawful about all that? His cultists don't tend towards the subtle...but neither did the Nazis, and they're sorta textbook Lawful Evil.
Let us not go there. Deal? This will get messy.

Eh. Not inherently. Everyone tends to agree that Nazis were bad...using them as an example of badness isn't all that controversial.


If we see eye-to-eye on the orc babies subject, I'll agree with your previous categorization.

Grand Lodge

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Gods, it's even worse. They crossed the threads.

Now, back to Zon Kuthon, another example of his Lawfulness is how he tolerates and maintains an armistice with his half-sister Shelyn after she disarmed him. That strikes me as lawful: willing to call it when you've been bested for the moment.


It might be argued that intentionally subjecting oneself to pain, and withstanding that pain, requires great mental and physical discipline (and discipline = law)?


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Okay, I'm going to share my philosophy with regards to these gods.

A god's official alignment is actually a distinct entity from its alignment as a character.

Think about it. As a PC, if I help an orphanage, then burn down another, I don't get away with anything less than Lawful Evil! But it's common behavior for gods like Gozreh, Boccob and Nethys. "Balance", right? And let's talk about gods like Gorum. Gorum is pretty much a warmongering a&+!+$+. I have a bit of trouble buying his character not being some shade of evil, but can I buy him having good-aligned worshipers? Absolutely.

A god's alignment is less a reflection of that god's true character and more of the compatibility of that god's portfolio with differently-aligned worshipers. At least, that's how I rationalize it.


I don't use alignment.


Understood, but a bit irrelevant considering we're discussing alignment in this thread. If you don't use it, you're at least invested enough in its use to argue about whether it applies to certain groups.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I think I am in the minority in thinking ideological Nazis were CE, but the Lawful Good argument is a new one to me. :)

For the three evils, I prefer Grand Moff Tarkin, Emperor Palpatine, and Darth Vader as my archetypes.

Tarkin is Lawful Evil. He serves the Empire, and his loyalty serves him. He has zero regard for the intrinsic worth of anyone. Innocent people are barely statistics to him. However, he believes merit is something you can earn, and he insists on order and cohesion in the Imperial leadership.

Palpatine is Neutral Evil. He is about power. In fact, he is about anything that furthers his power, and cares nothing about anything that doesn't. Generosity and sadism aren't values to him, they are simply impulses which he might choose to indulge. His inner zeal is for orgasmic acts of dominance and victory, but this is balanced by a penchant for careful planning and a certain level of personal equilibrium in his hatred. He views fear and pain as tools. His sense of right is... whatever he wants, however he can get it.

Darth Vader is Chaotic Evil. He does whatever he feels like. Like Tarkin, he has an almost worshipful loyalty to the Empire, but his loyalty is completely personal. He has personally pledged his service to the Emperor. He does what the Emperor says, not because of any basic principle, but because the emperor says it. To Vader, duty to the Empire is doing whatever Vader says, and when and how he says to do it. Reasons to do things also include anger, fear, and love. He does not feel the need to rationally justify anything he does. He operates from a personal sense of righteousness, which begins as a kind of personal zeal to help others, but eventually devolves into Evil and tyranny. There is no decree Vader makes which he might not reverse the very next day. Regardless, he expects you to follow his whims. However, this naturally does not apply in the reverse to him. If he decides to break his word, well, "The deal has changed." If he captures Luke, tries to turn him against the Emperor, then hands him over to the Emperor, then changes his mind and becomes Good and kills the Emperor.... well, that's just what Vader does.


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A Lawful alignment is about predictability. Zon-Kuthon is ALL ABOUT predictability. Any way you slice it, angels and devils want the same thing in regards to constancy, predictability and a SYSTEM for maintaining their vision of the world. Demons, by contrast, do not have such a vision. They want to be free to do as they like, valuing this freedom far higher than whatever a rigid system could bring in the way of benefits.

So, Zon-Kuthon wants a world where everyone has a place, where people know what to expect, and where nobody escapes this logic. His methods for this are pain, fear and everything else that makes things light and happy. Given a certain situation, you can check his book and predict what he's going to do. Rovagug? Not so. Certainly, Big R values destruction, but where, what and how? You're not likely to guess. By contrast, Zon-Kuthon is liable to even tell people what he intends.

And of course, laws are bonds as well. Chains are often a symbol of this relationship.


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Godwin's Law is a b!*+#.

Sovereign Court

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Z-K didn't really strike me as being all that Lawful really. There's a hierarchy, but it didn't strike me as being All About The Hierarchy like it's with Asmodeus. I didn't get the vibe that his church is working as a single entity towards collective goals, like Iomedae. It's more like a society of like-minded sickos who compare notes on how to best inflict pain. I suppose you could make a case for them all being "disciplined", kind of like Irori.

It does feel like the "Lawful" part was kind of inherited from 3.x Kytons though, back when those were just another species of devil.


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Note that restraint is by no means necessary for a Lawful being, it just requires that the excessive actions in question are appropriate and do not break one's way of working. C.f. mafia boss fights where one boss decides to exterminate every member of an opposing faction and their families. Lawful Evil villains are absolutely not restrained when it comes to excessive violence - so long as it's the appropriate response for the situation. Usually, things like it happen when someone actively tries to break out of their role in the system and their actions become a risk to the system itself.


Devil's advocate: Zon-Kuthon's "conversion" (and his Hellraiser roots) are heavy shades of Lovecraft, possessed and twisted and driven mad by horrors from beyond space and time. Those horrors are almost always listed as Chaotic (usually evil, though Azathoth is straight-up chaotic neutral because it doesn't HAVE a will) in Pathfinder's material.

But really, nothing he does stands out as particularly ordered or chaotic, he could be a "meticulous and mathematical" psychopath or an "inspired artist" psychopath, he's still just a torture-fetish body-horror dude. Only reason he HAS an alignment is that's the system we're in. And "should the game use alignment" adds proton pack #3 to our little crossed streams adventure.

Total protonic reversal will follow shortly.


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Then I think we should talk about Rogues/Fighters, Caster/Martial Disparity, and Schrodinger's Wizard while we're here.

I'll save falling Paladins and Roll vs. Role play for when the thread slows down.


Oh, can I make it religious too? If we're going totally off thread?

Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes full damage.

I know that joke is horrible, but I've always wanted to get a captive audience to groan in annoyance at it.

Okay, back on-topic. The thing that gets me, the thing that really blows my mind, is that he has LN followers at all. I mean, seriously? What kind of guy worships the deity of pain, suffering, torment, torture, etc, but in their day to day life follows the rules, leads an orderly schedule, and basically isn't a bad dude, but isn't altruistic?

Short of someone with a S&M fetish, I'm lost as to the possibility. And really, you have to be phenomenally obsessed if your sexual preferences override your desire to, you know, not have one of the most evil, vile gods in all of the multiverse be your patron.


Secret Wizard wrote:
I don't use alignment.

You also apparently don't understand morality. Even the ultrasimplistic version used for Pathfinder morality.

Evil creatures being nice to others that do things for them is still a neutral action. Being nice to your loved ones and comrades is neutral period. To be good one must be performing uneven actions that do not favor oneself. For instance sacrificing yourself to save someone, or having mercy on your enemies. The Nazis are undeniably evil due to committing genocide. Genocide is always evil, orc babies are specifically sighted as a moral test in Pathfinder because the proper good choice is to find a way to raise them to be good. Killing them is a semi-pragmatic easy answer. Good is never about the easy answers though, it's making sacrifices of yourself for the good of others. In this case the sacrifice of your time and resources to give those little green babies a shot at being the good guys.

Liberty's Edge

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thegreenteagamer wrote:

Okay, back on-topic. The thing that gets me, the thing that really blows my mind, is that he has LN followers at all. I mean, seriously? What kind of guy worships the deity of pain, suffering, torment, torture, etc, but in their day to day life follows the rules, leads an orderly schedule, and basically isn't a bad dude, but isn't altruistic?

Short of someone with a S&M fetish, I'm lost as to the possibility. And really, you have to be phenomenally obsessed if your sexual preferences override your desire to, you know, not have one of the most evil, vile gods in all of the multiverse be your patron.

Well, this is sorta the issue with the one-step rule in general. You can have CN followers of Rovagug, too.

If it helps, remember that, per James Jacobs, the vast majority of the devout followers of a specific God are precisely their God's alignment, with those one step away being heretics who just aren't quite getting it.

Also, check out the novel Nightglass, and it's protagonist Isiem. He's a great example of a potentially LN Cleric of Zon-Kuthon (okay, he's mostly a Wizard, but he's got a level in Cleric). He's a follower of the God pretty much solely because he's basically forced to be and acknowledges the God's power and authority over Nidal (which is his home nation). Being raised entirely in a totalitarian regime with no options can do things to a person...


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thegreenteagamer wrote:

Oh, can I make it religious too? If we're going totally off thread?

Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes full damage.

I know that joke is horrible, but I've always wanted to get a captive audience to groan in annoyance at it.

Okay, back on-topic. The thing that gets me, the thing that really blows my mind, is that he has LN followers at all. I mean, seriously? What kind of guy worships the deity of pain, suffering, torment, torture, etc, but in their day to day life follows the rules, leads an orderly schedule, and basically isn't a bad dude, but isn't altruistic?

Short of someone with a S&M fetish, I'm lost as to the possibility. And really, you have to be phenomenally obsessed if your sexual preferences override your desire to, you know, not have one of the most evil, vile gods in all of the multiverse be your patron.

I think it entirely depends on how much one buys into Zon-Kuthon's concepts of sin and how it relates to pain/pleasure. I could easily see it as someone who thinks that their god's original revelation/transformation was extremely unpleasant but necessary to spread his truth. So the LN would respect and fear their god, but not necessarily think everything he did was supposed to be imitated.


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There is no such thing as an evil alignment in our world. People can be bad. People can be insane. But doing evil for the sake of evil is not a valid performative in our universe.

PF is a different universe with a different cosmology and metaphysics.

Lawful is not always the same expression. It is the desire for order for the sake of order. To some it is a hierarchy. To some it is rituals. To asmodeus it is contracts and keeping his word. To monks it is rigorous self discipline, a complete ordering of the body and mind. How Lawful is manifested in an individuals actions can vary greatly.

Grand Lodge

thegreenteagamer wrote:


SNIP 'cuz it was needed.

Okay, back on-topic. The thing that gets me, the thing that really blows my mind, is that he has LN followers at all. I mean, seriously? What kind of guy worships the deity of pain, suffering, torment, torture, etc, but in their day to day life follows the rules, leads an orderly schedule, and basically isn't a bad dude, but isn't altruistic?

Short of someone with a S&M fetish, I'm lost as to the possibility. And really, you have to be phenomenally obsessed if your sexual preferences override your desire to, you know, not have one of the most evil, vile gods in all of the multiverse be your patron.

I have a LN Kuthite. I play him more along the "M" side of S&M. He is all about self actualization through Pain, it's just HIS pain he focuses on.

Remember, there is a whole nation where worship of the guy is mandatory. Not all of them are going to be evil. <ninja'd>


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Marroar Gellantara wrote:

There is no such thing as an evil alignment in our world. People can be bad. People can be insane. But doing evil for the sake of evil is not a valid performative in our universe.

PF is a different universe with a different cosmology and metaphysics.

Lawful is not always the same expression. It is the desire for order for the sake of order. To some it is a hierarchy. To some it is rituals. To asmodeus it is contracts and keeping his word. To monks it is rigorous self discipline, a complete ordering of the body and mind. How Lawful is manifested in an individuals actions can vary greatly.

Evil alignment in pathfinder is not performing evil for the sake of evil except in a very small number of instances. Take the Grauls in Hook Mountain Massacre. They are undeniably evil but mostly working for their own survival and enjoyment.

Also if you're coming at this from an angle of evil not existing at all in the real world, don't. Moral relativism is not fact. It is philosophy. to state one's philosophy as fact is repugnant and degrades discussion as much as someone saying "God is real and evil is defined as being against him, so Pathfinder can't have real alignment".


Alex Smith 908 wrote:
Marroar Gellantara wrote:

There is no such thing as an evil alignment in our world. People can be bad. People can be insane. But doing evil for the sake of evil is not a valid performative in our universe.

PF is a different universe with a different cosmology and metaphysics.

Lawful is not always the same expression. It is the desire for order for the sake of order. To some it is a hierarchy. To some it is rituals. To asmodeus it is contracts and keeping his word. To monks it is rigorous self discipline, a complete ordering of the body and mind. How Lawful is manifested in an individuals actions can vary greatly.

Evil alignment in pathfinder is not performing evil for the sake of evil except in a very small number of instances. Take the Grauls in Hook Mountain Massacre. They are undeniably evil but mostly working for their own survival and enjoyment.

Also if you're coming at this from an angle of evil not existing at all in the real world, don't. Moral relativism is not fact. It is philosophy. to state one's philosophy as fact is repugnant and degrades discussion as much as someone saying "God is real and evil is defined as being against him, so Pathfinder can't have real alignment".

Most people you will find in this world receive some sense of good feeling after doing something good, but not all.

Evil creatures in PF do not have that intuition. In fact they feel exactly the opposite. The grauls are a great example. They enjoy what they are doing. They are truly evil. You do not have to realize the exact nature of your motivations to act on them. Acting on your own performatives brings one happiness.

Evil does exist in our world, but the evil alignment does not. It's not valid. As soon as someone in our universe is truly evil, they are considered crazy. They have a mental disorder that can be treated with drugs. Not all self-definitive natures are possible in a particular universe, even if it is possible to understand them.


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Nobody is "crazy" just because their actions make others uncomfortable seeing that human beings are capable of such actions. It is perhaps understandable, but nonetheless false and ignorant.


Sissyl wrote:
Nobody is "crazy" just because their actions make others uncomfortable seeing that human beings are capable of such actions. It is perhaps understandable, but nonetheless false and ignorant.

I am not seeing the part where we are disagreeing.


Sissyl wrote:
Nobody is "crazy" just because their actions make others uncomfortable seeing that human beings are capable of such actions. It is perhaps understandable, but nonetheless false and ignorant.

Of course people are crazy. Crazy is defined by chemical imbalances of the brain outside of a given range of societal norms. We can demonstrably see that mentally ill people's brains operate differently and have different chemicals at play. Thus they are "crazy".

Marroar Gellantara wrote:

Most people you will find in this world receive some sense of good feeling after doing something good, but not all.

Evil creatures in PF do not have that intuition. In fact they feel exactly the opposite. The grauls are a great example. They enjoy what they are doing. They are truly evil. You do not have to realize the exact nature of your motivations to act on them. Acting on your own performatives brings one happiness.

Evil does exist in our world, but the evil alignment does not. It's not valid. As soon as someone in our universe is truly evil, they are considered crazy. They have a mental disorder that can be treated with drugs. Not all self-definitive natures are possible in a particular universe, even if it is possible to understand them.

Okay now I get where you're coming from. Sorry for jumping down your throat.

I think you're confusing lack of empathy and evil alignment. Lack or empathy or biological sadism can lead to evil alignment very easily but is not a requirement. Heavily conflicted evil is still evil. In fact it could easily be argued that someone is more evil if they are able to muscle past their own aversion of harming others for a cause they consider "greater". It also doesn't help that a creature incapable of empathy is pretty much irredeemable and redemption is a big part of having evil alignment in the game to begin with.


Something else to remember is that we don't live in a world were alignment exists. In the default worlds of D&D and Pathfinder alignment is a real aspect of how the universe and the multiverse work.

I can quite easily see how Zon Kuthon is Lawful. He is heavily based on the Hellraiser movies. In those films the Cenobites, Leviathan and everything about the way they operate is is almost the epitome of Lawful Evil or at least as close to it as we can get in the real world.


Alex Smith 908 wrote:
Marroar Gellantara wrote:

Most people you will find in this world receive some sense of good feeling after doing something good, but not all.

Evil creatures in PF do not have that intuition. In fact they feel exactly the opposite. The grauls are a great example. They enjoy what they are doing. They are truly evil. You do not have to realize the exact nature of your motivations to act on them. Acting on your own performatives brings one happiness.

Evil does exist in our world, but the evil alignment does not. It's not valid. As soon as someone in our universe is truly evil, they are considered crazy. They have a mental disorder that can be treated with drugs. Not all self-definitive natures are possible in a particular universe, even if it is possible to understand them.

Okay now I get where you're coming from. Sorry for jumping down your throat.

I think you're confusing lack of empathy and evil alignment. Lack or empathy or biological sadism can lead to evil alignment very easily but is not a requirement. Heavily conflicted evil is still evil. In fact it could easily be argued that someone is more evil if they are able to muscle past their own aversion of harming others for a cause they consider "greater". It also doesn't help that a creature incapable of empathy is pretty much irredeemable and redemption is a big part of having evil alignment in the game to begin with.

There is a difference between not-good and evil. I would agree that a person is more evil as a moral judgment who pushes past their own aversion to harming others. But evil as a moral judgment is different than being intrinsically evil.

In the PF universe, your alignment can change all the way from good to evil through willing action. You can force yourself to forget your good core and learn an evil one. In our universe forgetting your empathy is difficult and even impossible for some people, and I argue that acquiring the evil performative is impossible without a mental disorder. I should point out that I see a difference between a truly evil person and a sadist who is not-good in our universe. The moral judgement of their evil may be the same. In PF the moral judgment of your character and their intrinsic being get conflated do to the mechanisms of the universe.

I would argue that you do not need empathy to be morally judged as good. You can reach the logical conclusion of good behaviors without empathy or being intrinsically good. I do feel that part of truly being good requires empathy.


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thegreenteagamer wrote:

Okay, back on-topic. The thing that gets me, the thing that really blows my mind, is that he has LN followers at all. I mean, seriously? What kind of guy worships the deity of pain, suffering, torment, torture, etc, but in their day to day life follows the rules, leads an orderly schedule, and basically isn't a bad dude, but isn't altruistic?

Short of someone with a S&M fetish, I'm lost as to the possibility. And really, you have to be phenomenally obsessed if your sexual preferences override your desire to, you know, not have one of the most evil, vile gods in all of the multiverse be your patron.

"Hi, I'm a lawyer. I choose to believe that everyone who gets punished by Zon-Kuthon deserved that punishment and that the punishment itself makes the world a better place by taking suffering from other places or something. I also fastidiously avoid doing things that are EVIL, even though I'm a jerk, because I don't want to go to hell. I am 'technically neutral,' the best kind of neutral."


boring7 wrote:
thegreenteagamer wrote:

Okay, back on-topic. The thing that gets me, the thing that really blows my mind, is that he has LN followers at all. I mean, seriously? What kind of guy worships the deity of pain, suffering, torment, torture, etc, but in their day to day life follows the rules, leads an orderly schedule, and basically isn't a bad dude, but isn't altruistic?

Short of someone with a S&M fetish, I'm lost as to the possibility. And really, you have to be phenomenally obsessed if your sexual preferences override your desire to, you know, not have one of the most evil, vile gods in all of the multiverse be your patron.

"Hi, I'm a lawyer. I choose to believe that everyone who gets punished by Zon-Kuthon deserved that punishment and that the punishment itself makes the world a better place by taking suffering from other places or something. I also fastidiously avoid doing things that are EVIL, even though I'm a jerk, because I don't want to go to hell. I am 'technically neutral,' the best kind of neutral."

Figures that lawyers are the only followers of Evil gods.


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Marroar Gellantara wrote:

There is a difference between not-good and evil. I would agree that a person is more evil as a moral judgment who pushes past their own aversion to harming others. But evil as a moral judgment is different than being intrinsically evil.

In the PF universe, your alignment can change all the way from good to evil through willing action. You can force yourself to forget your good core and learn an evil one. In our universe forgetting your empathy is difficult and even impossible for some people, and I argue that acquiring the evil performative is impossible without a mental disorder. I should point out that I see a difference between a truly evil person and a sadist who is not-good in our universe. The moral judgement of their evil may be the same. In PF the moral judgment of your character and their intrinsic being get conflated do to the mechanisms of the universe.

I would argue that you do not need empathy to be morally judged as good. You can reach the logical conclusion of good behaviors without empathy or being intrinsically good. I do feel that part of truly being good requires empathy.

I think we're reaching an impasse here on the nature of evil alignment. At least as far as i'm concerned evil alignment does not me inherently evil. The [evil] alignment subtype means inherently evil, but just having the alignment does not. Hence why for non subtyped evil creatures I come form the base assumption that their evil is socially conditioned as well as perhaps the result of differing brain chemistry from humans. Evil alignment of an individual is just a representation of what they are now, and what they are likely to do in the near future given their current situation. A demon is evil alignment because they will always do evil, until his redemption Darth Vader is evil because he was doing evil as a result of his life decisions despite his better nature.


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DominusMegadeus wrote:
Figures that lawyers are the only followers of Evil gods.

There are lawyers who care more about helping people than money, but they're just rare 'cause few people go to school for 12 years, then 4 years for a bachelor's, then another 3 years to grab a JD and expect to make the equivalent of a regular white-collar office job.

Public defenders, those who work heavily with pro bono cases, and those who specialize in low income or work on contingency-only do exist. It's just the over-abundance of ambulance chasers and other types who give those rare few that give a crap a bad name.

It's like there are doctors out there that really care about people, spend more than three minutes with them to write up a prescription based upon the analysis their nurse already made before shoving them out the door and moving on to the next patient paycheck. They're usually called nurse practitioners, but there are a few genuine MDs that care too.

Normally I'd spoiler that far off-topic of a speech, but really, I think we're past that point in this thread.


Alex Smith 908 wrote:
Marroar Gellantara wrote:

There is a difference between not-good and evil. I would agree that a person is more evil as a moral judgment who pushes past their own aversion to harming others. But evil as a moral judgment is different than being intrinsically evil.

In the PF universe, your alignment can change all the way from good to evil through willing action. You can force yourself to forget your good core and learn an evil one. In our universe forgetting your empathy is difficult and even impossible for some people, and I argue that acquiring the evil performative is impossible without a mental disorder. I should point out that I see a difference between a truly evil person and a sadist who is not-good in our universe. The moral judgement of their evil may be the same. In PF the moral judgment of your character and their intrinsic being get conflated do to the mechanisms of the universe.

I would argue that you do not need empathy to be morally judged as good. You can reach the logical conclusion of good behaviors without empathy or being intrinsically good. I do feel that part of truly being good requires empathy.

I think we're reaching an impasse here on the nature of evil alignment. At least as far as i'm concerned evil alignment does not me inherently evil. The [evil] alignment subtype means inherently evil, but just having the alignment does not. Hence why for non subtyped evil creatures I come form the base assumption that their evil is socially conditioned as well as perhaps the result of differing brain chemistry from humans. Evil alignment of an individual is just a representation of what they are now, and what they are likely to do in the near future given their current situation. A demon is evil alignment because they will always do evil, until his redemption Darth Vader is evil because he was doing evil as a result of his life decisions despite his better nature.

Actually if you read the subtype. [Evil] just means you are from/powered by evil. You are likely to be that alignment, but you do not have to be.

It's another difference between our universe and PF. In PF evil is also a force. A physical force that can measured and quantified. Which is separate from an evil alignment, which is separate from an evil moral action.

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