When did I ever direct my answers to the overall discussion rather than Rynjin specifically?That it is NOT only good as a 3+ per day save of a CLW.But what is your stance in the "it is great healing vs. It is not so great for healing" or "it is great for healingvs. Healing is not that great" discussions that is the theme here?
So you took somthing out of the context it, plainly was in, and used it to tell us about your characters? Then atleast show us the build or tell a good anekdote:)
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So you took somthing out of the context it, plainly was in, and used it to tell us about your characters? Then atleast show us the build or tell a good anekdote:)
Well, there was the time Sierra earned her faction boon by bursting 40 healing to save a fellow Pathfinder as well as Lady Zadrian, her faction leader. And Kurik gets to enjoy shaping his channels in ways that negate the need for Selective Channel, which is good considering his lack of charisma.
So you took somthing out of the context it, plainly was in, and used it to tell us about your characters? Then atleast show us the build or tell a good anekdote:)Well, there was the time Sierra earned her faction boon by bursting 40 healing to save a fellow Pathfinder as well as Lady Zadrian, her faction leader. And Kurik gets to enjoy shaping his channels in ways that negate the need for Selective Channel, which is good considering his lack of charisma.
Thanks:)
A Sacred Fist Warpriest is a good unarmored healer. You are unarmored, can heal enough in an emergency, and are actually useful when you need to do proactive buttkicking instead of being a reactive band aid.
Warpriests are many things, but "good healers" isn't one of them. They're secondary healers, like Inquisitors. Their primary role is melee; they lack the spell slots to keep a party alive for a full day of adventuring.
And not to derail this thread even further to being about channeling vs spellcasting, but I wonder sometimes how many encounters per day people who dislike channeling tend to go through. PFS, for example, generally doesn't allow much (if any) time for resting, so you're having to go through 4+ level-appropriate combat encounters. At low to mid levels (PFS never goes above 12, generally) you need the additional healing from channeling just to function, in my experience.
It's not a matter of channeling vs. spellcasting, since all channelers also have the option of casting more powerful healing spells. It's a matter of spell only vs spells + channeling.
Now, back on topic:
How can we go about making a White Mage Arcanist that works? The Hex Channeler kind of builds itself, since Witches already have access to so many healing options, but at low levels a White Mage Arcanist is dealing with very limited resources (low reservoir points, low spell slots) and is potentially stuck without much to do as a backup when they aren't healing.
Idea 1: Invest in INT and CHA to keep save DCs reasonable, be a Human, and pick up Extra Reservoir and Extra Exploit feats to pick up Flame Arc at level 1 along with the White Mage exploit. This leaves you with six reservoir points, 3 1st level spell slots, and two prepared 1st level spells. That means that even if you use all 3 slots for CLW, you still have 3 reservoir points left to drop Flame Arcs. No attack roll needed, so low DEX won't be a factor, and you can provide AOE damage to the group, which is disproportionately awesome at low levels. AC will be hurt by the lower DEX, but on the bright side the higher CHA will let you make better use of Exploits like Arcane Barrier and Spell Disruption (am I crazy, or is suppressing enemy buffs crazy good?)
Idea 2: Guys, I need an Idea 2 :)
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A Sacred Fist Warpriest is a good unarmored healer. You are unarmored, can heal enough in an emergency, and are actually useful when you need to do proactive buttkicking instead of being a reactive band aid.Warpriests are many things, but "good healers" isn't one of them. They're secondary healers, like Inquisitors. Their primary role is melee; they lack the spell slots to keep a party alive for a full day of adventuring.
My point exactly. I feel a primary caster that focuses on healing alone is waste of resources. "Good healer" is an oxymoron, as in-combat healing is a reactive stop-gap measure that is only necessary when you use poor tactics, and even then if you are going to die without incombat healing, you are going to die with in-combat healing the following round.
A Sacred Fist Warpriest is a good unarmored healer. You are unarmored, can heal enough in an emergency, and are actually useful when you need to do proactive buttkicking instead of being a reactive band aid.Warpriests are many things, but "good healers" isn't one of them. They're secondary healers, like Inquisitors. Their primary role is melee; they lack the spell slots to keep a party alive for a full day of adventuring.
My point exactly. I feel a primary caster that focuses on healing alone is waste of resources. "Good healer" is an oxymoron, as in-combat healing is a reactive stop-gap measure that is only necessary when you use poor tactics, and even then if you are going to die without incombat healing, you are going to die with in-combat healing the following round.
If you only need a dedicated healer when tactics go poorly, then you have a very kind-hearted GM. That said, even a dedicated healer does more than just heal; Divine spellcasting offers a variety of buffs, undoes a lot of long-term suckage that monsters can drop on you (Restoration, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, etc.), and Clerics, at the very least, can provide a flanking partner in melee.
Getting back to the options I was looking at earlier in the thread, the White Mage Arcanist is still an Arcane spellcaster, and has access to the full Wizard/Sorcerer spell list, while a Hex Channeler has full access to a variety of useful debuffs via other Witch hexes. The Ecclesitheurge....well....that guy sucks. No armor, no way to really raise his AC, simple weapons only, and limited access to attack spells. He's pretty much a buff-only class that doesn't get enough to make up for what he's losing versus a regular Cleric, IMO.
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I think part of why many people feel no need for healing is that those same people tend to build extreme offense characters. All offense all the time. Which can be quite effective. And if you have a group of high offense characters, it really isn't worth your time to heal in combat very often if ever.
However, if the characters have higher defenses at the cost of offense, in-combat healing becomes far more viable. Both monsters and characters go down slower, and spending an action or two healing becomes a much more effective tactic.
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It's not all offense, it's offense and crowd control. If you can prevent enemy attacks by limiting actions, huge debuffs, SoSs, or manipulating terrain, you are able to take out foes without taking the damage that necessitates a healer.
Most of the times I've played with a group that felt they needed a "healer", it was because they just ran up and hit things like lemmings running off a cliff.
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Most of the times I've played with a group that felt they needed a "healer", it was because they just ran up and hit things like lemmings running off a cliff.
There are groups like that too. :P
My group we mostly seem to need in-combat healing when we're ambushed. Our GM's a sneaky bastard, so there are times when it happens and the group has been peppered with arrows etc. before we know what's up.
If there's time to prep with buffs etc, then said healing is rarely needed.
A Sacred Fist Warpriest is a good unarmored healer. You are unarmored, can heal enough in an emergency, and are actually useful when you need to do proactive buttkicking instead of being a reactive band aid.Warpriests are many things, but "good healers" isn't one of them. They're secondary healers, like Inquisitors. Their primary role is melee; they lack the spell slots to keep a party alive for a full day of adventuring.
My point exactly. I feel a primary caster that focuses on healing alone is waste of resources. "Good healer" is an oxymoron, as in-combat healing is a reactive stop-gap measure that is only necessary when you use poor tactics, and even then if you are going to die without incombat healing, you are going to die with in-combat healing the following round.
If you only need a dedicated healer when tactics go poorly, then you have a very kind-hearted GM. That said, even a dedicated healer does more than just heal; Divine spellcasting offers a variety of buffs, undoes a lot of long-term suckage that monsters can drop on you (Restoration, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, etc.), and Clerics, at the very least, can provide a flanking partner in melee.
Getting back to the options I was looking at earlier in the thread, the White Mage Arcanist is still an Arcane spellcaster, and has access to the full Wizard/Sorcerer spell list, while a Hex Channeler has full access to a variety of useful debuffs via other Witch hexes. The Ecclesitheurge....well....that guy sucks. No armor, no way to really raise his AC, simple weapons only, and limited access to attack spells. He's pretty much a buff-only class that doesn't get enough to make up for what he's losing versus a regular Cleric, IMO.
I will not keep up the "channeling is not good thing" then we can agree to not agree.
But i must say i kind of like the Ecclesithurge. He is better of on the defense than the witch and the cleric list is not bad.But i think you dismadring the life oracle because he can wear armor is a shame. Just dont wear it if you feel that strongly it is still IMOP the best, or one of the best healing classes, if healing is your game.
Also the shaman May have somthing you could use.
I think part of why many people feel no need for healing is that those same people tend to build extreme offense characters. All offense all the time. Which can be quite effective. And if you have a group of high offense characters, it really isn't worth your time to heal in combat very often if ever.
However, if the characters have higher defenses at the cost of offense, in-combat healing becomes far more viable. Both monsters and characters go down slower, and spending an action or two healing becomes a much more effective tactic.
But this way is resourse heavy and only really good if the monsters, like true gentlemen, dosent attack the weaker party members.
If you can bring the bad guy in two turns then that is how long the witch need to be able to hold his own. If it takes Four then that is a whole different game to be a character with unimpressive defense in.
A Sacred Fist Warpriest is a good unarmored healer. You are unarmored, can heal enough in an emergency, and are actually useful when you need to do proactive buttkicking instead of being a reactive band aid.Warpriests are many things, but "good healers" isn't one of them. They're secondary healers, like Inquisitors. Their primary role is melee; they lack the spell slots to keep a party alive for a full day of adventuring.
My point exactly. I feel a primary caster that focuses on healing alone is waste of resources. "Good healer" is an oxymoron, as in-combat healing is a reactive stop-gap measure that is only necessary when you use poor tactics, and even then if you are going to die without incombat healing, you are going to die with in-combat healing the following round.
If you only need a dedicated healer when tactics go poorly, then you have a very kind-hearted GM. That said, even a dedicated healer does more than just heal; Divine spellcasting offers a variety of buffs, undoes a lot of long-term suckage that monsters can drop on you (Restoration, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, etc.), and Clerics, at the very least, can provide a flanking partner in melee.
Getting back to the options I was looking at earlier in the thread, the White Mage Arcanist is still an Arcane spellcaster, and has access to the full Wizard/Sorcerer spell list, while a Hex Channeler has full access to a variety of useful debuffs via other Witch hexes. The Ecclesitheurge....well....that guy sucks. No armor, no way to really raise his AC, simple weapons only, and limited access to attack spells. He's pretty much a buff-only class that doesn't get enough to make up for what he's losing versus a regular Cleric, IMO.
I will not keep up the "channeling is not good thing" then we can agree to not agree.
But i must say i kind of like the Ecclesithurge. He is better of on the defense than the witch and the cleric...
Um...no he isn't. The cleric gets medium armor (~+6 armor without enchantment) plus Shield of Faith (+2), and the Witch gets the Mage Armor spell (+4 armor). The Ecclesitheurge gets Shield of Faith (+2) and that's it. Nothing else. He doesn't add Wisdom to AC like a Monk or Sacred Fist does.
...A Sacred Fist Warpriest is a good unarmored healer. You are unarmored, can heal enough in an emergency, and are actually useful when you need to do proactive buttkicking instead of being a reactive band aid.Warpriests are many things, but "good healers" isn't one of them. They're secondary healers, like Inquisitors. Their primary role is melee; they lack the spell slots to keep a party alive for a full day of adventuring.
My point exactly. I feel a primary caster that focuses on healing alone is waste of resources. "Good healer" is an oxymoron, as in-combat healing is a reactive stop-gap measure that is only necessary when you use poor tactics, and even then if you are going to die without incombat healing, you are going to die with in-combat healing the following round.
If you only need a dedicated healer when tactics go poorly, then you have a very kind-hearted GM. That said, even a dedicated healer does more than just heal; Divine spellcasting offers a variety of buffs, undoes a lot of long-term suckage that monsters can drop on you (Restoration, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, etc.), and Clerics, at the very least, can provide a flanking partner in melee.
Getting back to the options I was looking at earlier in the thread, the White Mage Arcanist is still an Arcane spellcaster, and has access to the full Wizard/Sorcerer spell list, while a Hex Channeler has full access to a variety of useful debuffs via other Witch hexes. The Ecclesitheurge....well....that guy sucks. No armor, no way to really raise his AC, simple weapons only, and limited access to attack spells. He's pretty much a buff-only class that doesn't get enough to make up for what he's losing versus a regular Cleric, IMO.
I will not keep up the "channeling is not good thing" then we can agree to not agree.
But i must say i kind of like the Ecclesithurge. He is better of on the defense
He have better hitpoints and saves. That more than evens out that he need some one else to cast mage armor IMOP. And sanctuary is also Nice.
I don't think an average of 2HP/level comes even close to evening out a difference of 4+ AC. And bear in mind that compared to a Cleric, the Ecclesiturge is objectively worse defensively, as he has the same saves and HP, but less AC.
I don't think an average of 2HP/level comes even close to evening out a difference of 4+ AC. And bear in mind that compared to a Cleric, the Ecclesiturge is objectively worse defensively, as he has the same saves and HP, but less AC.
The comparison to cleric i agree with unless the domain he have as his first is deception or defense. But i am not sure i would recomend them. :)
As far as Oracles go, I am currently playing a Half-Elf Oracle of Life with the Spirit Guide archetype (Life), the Elf FCB, Exalted of the Society, Extra Channel, Ritual of Possession, and a Periapt of Positive Channeling.
At 8th level, he channels 10d6 11/day, and 8d6 8/day. He also has Channeled Revival and Fateful Channel.
Healing has not been an issue so far.
As far as Oracles go, I am currently playing a Half-Elf Oracle of Life with the Spirit Guide archetype (Life), the Elf FCB, Exalted of the Society, Extra Channel, Ritual of Possession, and a Periapt of Positive Channeling.
At 8th level, he channels 10d6 11/day, and 8d6 8/day. He also has Channeled Revival and Fateful Channel.
Healing has not been an issue so far.
Does your Oracle wear armor? This is a thread about unarmored healers.
And not to derail this thread even further to being about channeling vs spellcasting, but I wonder sometimes how many encounters per day people who dislike channeling tend to go through. PFS, for example, generally doesn't allow much (if any) time for resting, so you're having to go through 4+ level-appropriate combat encounters. At low to mid levels (PFS never goes above 12, generally) you need the additional healing from channeling just to function, in my experience.
Channel is even worse healing with a lot of encounters per day. Generally you'll have 4 or 5 Channels per day (a couple more on a Life Oracle instead of a Cleric), and then you're ought.
Considering the amount of HP you have to heal at many levels, you'll be lucky if you don't have to use half or more of those each time you end up needing healing.
And not to derail this thread even further to being about channeling vs spellcasting, but I wonder sometimes how many encounters per day people who dislike channeling tend to go through. PFS, for example, generally doesn't allow much (if any) time for resting, so you're having to go through 4+ level-appropriate combat encounters. At low to mid levels (PFS never goes above 12, generally) you need the additional healing from channeling just to function, in my experience.
Channel is even worse healing with a lot of encounters per day. Generally you'll have 4 or 5 Channels per day (a couple more on a Life Oracle instead of a Cleric), and then you're ought.
Considering the amount of HP you have to heal at many levels, you'll be lucky if you don't have to use half or more of those each time you end up needing healing.
That statement makes no sense at all. You're basically arguing that for a party having many encounters per day, they're better off *without* an additional source of healing. That's objectively untrue.
A cleric can cast healing spells, and also has channel healing. A non-Life Oracle or White Mage Arcanist has healing spells only. Put simply, without channeling, the sheer volume of hit points you can give back to people before you need to rest is less than it would be if you had channeling. Period.
If one chose an oracle mystery that adds CHA to AC via a revelation (lore, nature, lunar) and took spirit guide (life) for channel every day (or perhaps vice versa; I think there might be a nature's whispers-style hex somewhere), that would be a very nice AC boost which, since it would be restricted by maximum DEX bonus, would push one into something like haramaki, which I, at least, being prepossessed with armorless builds, would consider aesthetically unarmored.
Does your Oracle wear armor? This is a thread about unarmored healers.As far as Oracles go, I am currently playing a Half-Elf Oracle of Life with the Spirit Guide archetype (Life), the Elf FCB, Exalted of the Society, Extra Channel, Ritual of Possession, and a Periapt of Positive Channeling.
At 8th level, he channels 10d6 11/day, and 8d6 8/day. He also has Channeled Revival and Fateful Channel.
Healing has not been an issue so far.
Calm Down mate, folks write stuff here to give you the advice you seemed to ask for. No Reason to bite the hand that try to help you.
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(pfs never goes above 12) - eh not really - I played PFS to 15 and seeker modules to 19.2. I could hit 20 in PFS with a replay, but I'm not going to waste a replay just to get to 20.
Without channel the volume of hit points you give can give is less than with channel - in the case of the Theurge that is incorrect. Mainly as all my level 2+ sorcerer spells become healing spells (if I choose them to be.) I rarely use wands of clw, because I have the personal resources to avoid it.
And not to derail this thread even further to being about channeling vs spellcasting, but I wonder sometimes how many encounters per day people who dislike channeling tend to go through. PFS, for example, generally doesn't allow much (if any) time for resting, so you're having to go through 4+ level-appropriate combat encounters. At low to mid levels (PFS never goes above 12, generally) you need the additional healing from channeling just to function, in my experience.
Channel is even worse healing with a lot of encounters per day. Generally you'll have 4 or 5 Channels per day (a couple more on a Life Oracle instead of a Cleric), and then you're ought.
Considering the amount of HP you have to heal at many levels, you'll be lucky if you don't have to use half or more of those each time you end up needing healing.
That statement makes no sense at all. You're basically arguing that for a party having many encounters per day, they're better off *without* an additional source of healing. That's objectively untrue.
A cleric can cast healing spells, and also has channel healing. A non-Life Oracle or White Mage Arcanist has healing spells only. Put simply, without channeling, the sheer volume of hit points you can give back to people before you need to rest is less than it would be if you had channeling. Period.
Less by a nearly insignificant amount, which is easily covered by a Wand of Infernal Healing.
It's simply not a good ability.
Certainly, having it is better than not having it if you can't trade it for something better, and want to play a Cleric, but in no way does it become more useful if you have more encounters.
And Kurik gets to enjoy shaping his channels in ways that negate the need for Selective Channel, which is good considering his lack of charisma.
For the record, how do you shape a channel energy?
If 3rd party is welcome then a Vitalist with someone who can channel can be effective in combat healing, channel 5d6 to 6 people, and take that 5d6x6 or 30d6 to one person or may spread as you see fit point by point. And that's from a Collective (100ft+10ft/lvl) range. But I may be biased after having one in my game, totally amazing healers/buffers.
Pure pazio, other then pitch healing, and then it is still risky, rocket tag is better. It has been better since 3.0, and the heal spell is the only thing that can arguably make that different.
I don't know why cannon law says healers must have armor other then the days of first and second edition when being squishy was a wizards role. I think I remember an interview I read that Gygax mentioned about healing needs armor to be in the combat to heal. Mind you much of the game has really changed since those days.
And Kurik gets to enjoy shaping his channels in ways that negate the need for Selective Channel, which is good considering his lack of charisma.For the record, how do you shape a channel energy?
Holy Vindicator ability
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A Sacred Fist Warpriest is a good unarmored healer. You are unarmored, can heal enough in an emergency, and are actually useful when you need to do proactive buttkicking instead of being a reactive band aid.Warpriests are many things, but "good healers" isn't one of them. They're secondary healers, like Inquisitors. Their primary role is melee; they lack the spell slots to keep a party alive for a full day of adventuring.
I don't think you should dismiss warpriest so quickly without actually taking a look at what they can do. They get fervor healing, which can also be used for channeling, additional uses scale off wisdom, no need for cha. Healing blessing empowers their cure spells. Shield other is only a second level spell lasting hours per level. Allowing you to take half your frontliners' damage and swift healing yourself with fervor helps with action economy. They may not make the best healer, but I think they could be a perfectly competent one with some interesting other abilities to make them a viable primary healer.
Witches have been mentioned before, but another upside of them is their familiar can deliver the healing spells for them. Having a flying familiar can let you get the heals to a party member who would have otherwise been out of your reach. The scar hex can be used to allow you to heal hex your party from up to a mile away (also to fortune or any other beneficial hexes). The cartomancer archetype lets you deliver touch spells at range, or the hair hex gives you reach, all good for healing people without having to put yourself in harm's way.
A Sacred Fist Warpriest is a good unarmored healer. You are unarmored, can heal enough in an emergency, and are actually useful when you need to do proactive buttkicking instead of being a reactive band aid.Warpriests are many things, but "good healers" isn't one of them. They're secondary healers, like Inquisitors. Their primary role is melee; they lack the spell slots to keep a party alive for a full day of adventuring.I don't think you should dismiss warpriest so quickly without actually taking a look at what they can do. They get fervor healing, which can also be used for channeling, additional uses scale off wisdom, no need for cha. Healing blessing empowers their cure spells. Shield other is only a second level spell lasting hours per level. Allowing you to take half your frontliners' damage and swift healing yourself with fervor helps with action economy. They may not make the best healer, but I think they could be a perfectly competent one with some interesting other abilities to make them a viable primary healer.
Witches have been mentioned before, but another upside of them is their familiar can deliver the healing spells for them. Having a flying familiar can let you get the heals to a party member who would have otherwise been out of your reach. The scar hex can be used to allow you to heal hex your party from up to a mile away (also to fortune or any other beneficial hexes). The cartomancer archetype lets you deliver touch spells at range, or the hair hex gives you reach, all good for healing people without having to put yourself in harm's way.
Good point; I'm already of the mind that Witches are perhaps the best (if we're going Paizo-only) unarmored healers, but using the familiar to deliver Cure spells is a good tactic, provided they'll be safe from AoOs. What do you think of my earlier question re: White Mages? It got buried by the Channeling argument:
How can we go about making a White Mage Arcanist that works? The Hex Channeler kind of builds itself, since Witches already have access to so many healing options, but at low levels a White Mage Arcanist is dealing with very limited resources (low reservoir points, low spell slots) and is potentially stuck without much to do as a backup when they aren't healing.
Idea 1: Invest in INT and CHA to keep save DCs reasonable, be a Human, and pick up Extra Reservoir and Extra Exploit feats to pick up Flame Arc at level 1 along with the White Mage exploit. This leaves you with six reservoir points, 3 1st level spell slots, and two prepared 1st level spells. That means that even if you use all 3 slots for CLW, you still have 3 reservoir points left to drop Flame Arcs. No attack roll needed, so low DEX won't be a factor, and you can provide AOE damage to the group, which is disproportionately awesome at low levels. AC will be hurt by the lower DEX, but on the bright side the higher CHA will let you make better use of Exploits like Arcane Barrier and Spell Disruption (am I crazy, or is suppressing enemy buffs crazy good?)
Holy Vindicator ability
For the record, how do you shape a channel energy?
Ah, thanks.
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Know what's a great unarmed healer? DC 26+ Sanctuary Cleric, who needs armor when they can't even touch you. Feel free to walk over and heal that poor fellow bleeding to death on the floor. Don't mind those critters over there, your deity will protect you whereas others have fallen short in trust in their heavy armor to save them.
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Channeling has the advantage that, with a Feat, you can do it as a Move Action, enabling you to do it on top of a spell of your choice (and a Quickened one, if high enough level that that's relevant).I want to build a cleric that capitalizes on this now. Move action channel, quick action cure wounds, standard action cure wounds or heal. Yes.... must use all the abilities in a single combat...
Yeah, it's not even particularly Feat or Stat intensive. Selective Channeling, Quick Channel, and a Charisma of 14 will do for the basics. Make it 16 Charisma with an Ioun Stone or something and you're good to go.
Now, it's only 3/day at that point (as a Move Action), but it's not like you're not a 9 level spellcaster aside from this trick, with other Feats and tricks to play with.
The whole thing is better and easier as a Life Oracle, of course.
2 points,
1. Channelling is more efficient when using Shield Other or Life Link.
2. If you're unarmoured the trickery patron for Mirror Image would be a life saver.
Carry on.
In the side argument of channel usefulness, examples from the life oracle or life shaman are questionable as life link allows you to spread out damage and thus take greater advantage of channel. Basically channel is usually good in these side cases which are neither unarmored.
Oracle has channel especially good because it already has charisma as a main stat. Most other channels have to go MAD to take advantage of it.