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After much work and some deliberation. I have decided to post this here.
This is still very much a work in progress, but I have been assured that everyone will get more use out of an incomplete guide now than a complete guide several months from now.
Blurring the Lines for Arcanes and Divines - A Guide to the Mystic Theurge
I will be continuing to update this fairly regularly, and comments will be made here indicating what changes were made. This link will always go to the most recent version.
Please use this thread for discussion of the guide, it's content, and builds based off of it's content. I hope that this proves useful to you all.
If there is anything that anyone disagrees with me on, please let me know. I am not infallible. I'm currently focused on completing my ratings and reviews of equipment, and will then move on towards a more in depth analysis of arcane bonds.
The largely blank pages at the beginnings of major sections are there as place holders for artwork that I have commissioned from a local artist.
I have been eagerly waiting for someone to step up to this. I really appreciate your work in advance. I will read it now. The SLA's still allow earlier access, no?
They certainly do, and that is covered in depth throughout the guide. The value of different options are rated according to which method of entry to mystic theurge you'll be using and whether or not they may interfere with that method.
I'd like to point out the Dark Fey Sorcerer bloodline as a good option. Most of the curse spells are divine exclusive or come earlier for divine classes so the Theurge is uniquely suited for this sort of build.
I haven't gotten to including that book yet, but I agree, it is a lovely bloodline for curse based theurges. I will make note of it, and include it when I get to that book.
There are also several options that are referenced but not included as their books have not been properly included yet. That's the problem when you own everything in hardback and want to go through everything in order. I have every intention of including every book that I can reasonably get my hands on.
I browsed thru the guide. I am really interested in a wizard / druid / mt. Do you have any suggestions for a build. Wizard primary.
Also, what is inquisitions for a Druid, ie which book is that in please.
-- david
I kind of disagree on the wizard spellslinger archetype. A potential +5 to save DCs with the opposition school holes filled by another classes' casting sounds workable. No, you're not likely to be great at shooting people but that's not the point.
Likewise with the dual-cursed oracle. With the right combinations of curses you don't especially care that they don't advance fast/at all, and the misfortune revelation is excellent, close to a free persistent spell.
I browsed thru the guide. I am really interested in a wizard / druid / mt. Do you have any suggestions for a build. Wizard primary.
Also, what is inquisitions for a Druid, ie which book is that in please.
-- david
That depends largely on what you want to do with it. One of the sample builds I intend to post is an evoker that will be a wizard/druid. I don't have all of the notes on me at the moment, but I can give you the gist of it. It was going to use the Peri-blooded Aasimar for the arcane qualification and the Fate Inquisition for the divine qualification. With two levels of Admixture wizard and one level of druid before entering, it choose its spells to keep a variety of damage available. It would use the admixture to overcome resistances to ensure that it was always affecting it's opponents.
Granted, this is only one way this could be done. A Wizard/Druid can make an effective buffing or summoning theurge as well.
Inquisitions are listed initially in Ultimate Magic, but occur in some Player Companion books after that. They were intended for Inquisitors, but any class with domains can take them.
doting for interest--i'll keep my thoughts on MT usage to myself until i can get a chance to read this throuhg--i'd hate to repeat stuff already in the guide!
With regards to the protection domain, I find that it warrants a rating higher than orange. The resistance bonus is a +1 for every five levels; not cleric levels, but levels. I checked the paizo SRD, my copy of the CRB and d20pfsrd to see if there were any clarifications about it being strictly dependent on cleric levels, but I haven't come across any. So it frees up your shoulder slot and provides a scaling resistance bonus, a nifty trick IMO. Resistant touch isn't all that great (I'd rate it red) and Aura of protection will come into play too late in the game for it to matter, but the base ability should be worth a bump to green.
Furthermore, the Defense subdomain's replacement power Deflection Aura is a great support tool that still finds it's use at higher levels with the static bonus it provides to CMD. Add to that that it will add barkskin to your spell list and it too warrants a bump up to green.
Beyond that, what are your thoughts on the Ecclesitheurge archetype?
Edit for spelling
I kind of disagree on the wizard spellslinger archetype. A potential +5 to save DCs with the opposition school holes filled by another classes' casting sounds workable. No, you're not likely to be great at shooting people but that's not the point.
Likewise with the dual-cursed oracle. With the right combinations of curses you don't especially care that they don't advance fast/at all, and the misfortune revelation is excellent, close to a free persistent spell.
You have a point with the spellslinger. Which is in fact one I relied on in some of my equipment ratings. I rated the spellslinger when I first started on the guide, and I suppose I forgot to change it. I have now changed it in the offline copy, which will go live with the next major edit.
The same problem happened with the Dual-Cursed Oracle. I misread something regarding curses in the first few weeks of ratings. Thanks for pointing them out.
when a class refers to 'level' for any ability granted by the class itself, it is reffering to that class' levels unless it specifically says "character level", "total class levels", "total hit dice", or any other specific call-out for levels in classes other than the base.
lemme track down the source.
EDIT: well, besides the CRB page 30's 'multiclass' section saying it, there's also JJ weighing in here, SKR weighing in here, and numerous threads asking about the ambiguity of "level" meaning class level or character level (it is always the former) by simply searching the rules forum.
With regards to the protection domain, I find that it warrants a rating higher than orange. The resistance bonus is a +1 for every five levels; not cleric levels, but levels. I checked the paizo SRD, my copy of the CRB and d20pfsrd to see if there were any clarifications about it being strictly dependent on cleric levels, but I haven't come across any. So it frees up your shoulder slot and provides a scaling resistance bonus, a nifty trick IMO. Resistant touch isn't all that great (I'd rate it red) and Aura of protection will come into play too late in the game for it to matter, but the base ability should be worth a bump to green.
Furthermore, the Defense subdomain's replacement power Deflection Aura is a great support tool that still finds it's use at higher levels with the static bonus it provides to CMD. Add to that that it will add barkskin to your spell list and it too warrants a bump up to green.
Beyond that, what are your thoughts on the Ecclesitheurge archetype?
Edit for spelling
AndIMustMask has stated the cause of the rating on the protection domain, which is unfortunate, because it would be wonderful if it scaled for us the way it does for a typical cleric.
I'm not sure how I missed the Ecclesitheurge, considering I rated all of the other archetypes in that book but the skald not long ago. Beyond the restriction to not wear armor, I like it. Most theurges can at least wear an armored kilt and a mithral buckler, but an ecclesitheurge can't even wear that. If you use entry method B (racial for arcane and then level divine to normal entry), this is quite nice. Your defenses will be a little low, but you'll be quite the capable caster.
Thanks for pointing out the missed archetype.
i like how you separate the different entry methods clearly, it goes a long way towards making options more coherent in an otherwise mindboggling class for those unused to it.
have your considered adding a dhampir section akin to the aasimar/tiefling ones? blood of the night allows quite a few options, despite the race's shortcomings on the SLA side.
.
if you've a sample builds section lineup, i've got a necromancer theurge (type C by your guide's standards, clr1/wiz5/MT10/etc.) that effectively plays like a sage sorcerer who is an almost dread necromancer-tier undead platform, with just short of 500HD of undead at his disposal.
though it is a bit lower than that if the DM disallows esoteric training, it's still a sight to behold.
One small note, but one I'm pretty thankful for; thanks for sticking with the traditional color scheme started by Treantmonk. I don't know why some people feel the need to throw in cyan, or purple, or black, or whatnot, when the basic four do the job rather well.
i like how you separate the different entry methods clearly, it goes a long way towards making options more coherent in an otherwise mindboggling class for those unused to it.
have your considered adding a dhampir section akin to the aasimar/tiefling ones? blood of the night allows quite a few options, despite the race's shortcomings on the SLA side.
.
if you've a sample builds section lineup, i've got a necromancer theurge (type C by your guide's standards, clr1/wiz5/MT10/etc.) that effectively plays like a sage sorcerer who is an almost dread necromancer-tier undead platform, with just short of 500HD of undead at his disposal.
though it is a bit lower than that if the DM disallows esoteric training, it's still a sight to behold.
The sub-races from Blood of the Moon and Blood of the Night are going to be covered in the same way that the Aasimar and Tiefling sub-races are, I just haven't started on those books yet. There's a lot of books yet to be covered.
I had a necromancer build lined up for a sample build, (Type D was the intention). I have seen your necromancer theurge, and it is definitely powerful. The primary goal of my sample builds is to make certain that they can be easily understood by those who are not necessarily familiar with the class, so when I put together the necromancer theurge for my sample build, it may be similar to yours, but any deviations will be made with that in mind.
One small note, but one I'm pretty thankful for; thanks for sticking with the traditional color scheme started by Treantmonk. I don't know why some people feel the need to throw in cyan, or purple, or black, or whatnot, when the basic four do the job rather well.
Thanks. I assumed that legibility is ideal, and he had a great thing going. It was best not to abandon it.
i gotcha.
the basic shtick is just "(early entry divine) + (5 levels in cruouromancer for the sick animate bonuses) + (mystic theurge doublebuckets)", so a great deal can be pruned out or toned down for ease of understanding.
the version i've posted around is a hyper-optimized one that's not actually recommended for play (it's more of a system stress test/thought exercise/endgame-BBEG-who-can-stock-a-dungeon-by-himself build), and could supply a pruned down version if you'd like.
Remember that an Oracle's curse does scale (slowly) with non-oracle levels. It goes up 1 level for every oracle level and 1/2 a level for every non-oracle level.
Beautifully written - I was hesitant to do a Mystic Theurge, and now I'm interested in trying it.
I believe the version I was using was going to be using the Juju oracle Spirit vessels revelation in place of the Cruoromancer bonus, to gain 6x caster level in undead instead of 5x. It would gain the ability to animate later, but it would also be using the mystic theurge double buckets and adept channel to maintain a channel bucket at higher levels. I playtested it for some time, and it did fairly well.
Most of the sample builds have been playtested, with only three exceptions.
The end goal is to have every sample build posted with a full character sheet made out at levels 5, 10, and 15, in addition to having a level progression posted where the individual choices made each level are outlined.
Remember that an Oracle's curse does scale (slowly) with non-oracle levels. It goes up 1 level for every oracle level and 1/2 a level for every non-oracle level.
True enough. I was wrong on that in my original version, and you were kind enough to correct me on that in revision. The current version reflects that in the Curses section, although I have found several other places that it appears to have slipped through. Those will be corrected as well in the next edit.
when a class refers to 'level' for any ability granted by the class itself, it is reffering to that class' levels unless it specifically says "character level", "total class levels", "total hit dice", or any other specific call-out for levels in classes other than the base.
lemme track down the source.
EDIT: well, besides the CRB page 30's 'multiclass' section saying it, there's also JJ weighing in here, SKR weighing in here, and numerous threads asking about the ambiguity of "level" meaning class level or character level (it is always the former) by simply searching the rules forum.
Oh. Well then, I stand corrected. I'm still going to say that the defense subdomain's replacement power and the spells it adds are worthy of a bump up, but I'll concede that the protection domain isn't one of the stronger choices.
The corrections and edits pointed out in the thread have now been added to the live version, as well as the notes on the Ecclesitheurge. A few more item notes have been added as well. I'll work on equipment notes some more later today, with the hopes of finishing the ratings on the wondrous items in the core rulebook.
So if I understand correctly; I could create a Peri-Blooded Aasimar, take two levels of Admixture Evoker, one level of Druid taking the Fate Inquisition (instead of animal companion or domain) and enter MT at 4th level? Then I would finish out with Wizard.
If this is correct, which I think that it is, I have my PC for the next campaign which should be starting early February 2015.
-- david
So if I understand correctly; I could create a Peri-Blooded Aasimar, take two levels of Admixture Evoker, one level of Druid taking the Fate Inquisition (instead of animal companion or domain) and enter MT at 4th level? Then I would finish out with Wizard.
If this is correct, which I think that it is, I have my PC for the next campaign which should be starting early February 2015.
-- david
You are absolutely reading that correctly. It is truly wonderful.
I read the title and now I have Robin Thicke's "Blurred Lines" stuck in my head.
In my eyes the Mystic Theurge is now forever evil because of that.
I can happily say that I am oblivious enough that in the months that I have been writing this, that had never happened to me until you made that post.
I read the title and now I have Robin Thicke's "Blurred Lines" stuck in my head.
In my eyes the Mystic Theurge is now forever evil because of that.
On the more serious side, as a fellow Prestige Class Guide author, I appreciate the amount of work that goes into this. I'll give you some more detailed feedback.
One thing I'm taking issue with is the large blank spaces that are listed before you go into detail about each class. It simply annoys me because I feel like their should be something there that isn't, though that may be due to the incompleteness of the guide.
Overall, the guide seems to work really well thus far, I haven't read it in-depth enough to make any arguments for ratings or such, but I really enjoy how much work went into this and how detailed the breakdowns are.
EDIT: I also love how you've gone into some detail on equipment, just as a topic that isn't covered very often in such detail.
EDIT2: Equipment does have a bit of an issue with font size, with some of it being smaller than the rest.
EDIT3: Finally, I appreciate the listing of sources, as it really helps those who are limited in the rulebooks they have accessible. As well, if you'd like, I wouldn't mind helping put together some sample builds for you, just to cut down on some of the work that needs to be done?
Regarding the kitsune and alter self: I thought the "This otherwise functions Spell X" wording was close enough for you to qualify? People have been using divination (scryer) school wizard to get into eldritch knight for a while now.
The sensor otherwise functions as a clairaudience/clairvoyance spell
This ability otherwise functions as alter self,
The trickery domain uses the "functions as" wording, but not "otherwise".
Why would one work but not the other?
Have people been doing it wrong? I've trusted these guys to get it right enough for PFS. More than a few "PFS legal" Eldritch Knight builds would have to be revised to aasimar. Which, AFAIK, isn't legal to do anymore. Whoops.
Anyway, I might be missing something big here.
One thing I'm taking issue with is the large blank spaces that are listed before you go into detail about each class. It simply annoys me because I feel like their should be something there that isn't, though that may be due to the incompleteness of the guide.
Overall, the guide seems to work really well thus far, I haven't read it in-depth enough to make any arguments for ratings or such, but I really enjoy how much work went into this and how detailed the breakdowns are.
The gaps before the class breakdowns are placeholders for art that I commissioned from a local artist. I understand the annoyance, though. I may remove them for the time being.
Regarding the kitsune and alter self: I thought the "This otherwise functions Spell X" wording was close enough for you to qualify? People have been using divination (scryer) school wizard to get into eldritch knight for a while now.
The sensor otherwise functions as a clairaudience/clairvoyance spellThis ability otherwise functions as alter self,The trickery domain uses the "functions as" wording, but not "otherwise".
Why would one work but not the other?
Have people been doing it wrong? I've trusted these guys to get it right enough for PFS. More than a few "PFS legal" Eldritch Knight builds would have to be revised to aasimar. Which, AFAIK, isn't legal to do anymore. Whoops.
Anyway, I might be missing something big here.
The Kitsune ability is a Supernatural ability, not Spell-Like, which means it unfortunately does not allow it to qualify. It is necessary that a class feature is both a spell-like ability, and that it references a spell of second level in order to qualify for mystic theurge. Kitsune meets the second one of those, but not the other. The precise wording of it is less important than those qualifiers.
The Divination (Scryer) ability is a spell-like ability, denoted by the (sp) at the beginning, as opposed to Change Shape's (su), and it references Clairaudience/Clairvoyance which is a 3rd level spell. This allows it to qualify for the third level spell requirement for Eldritch Knight.
I hope that clarifies it a little bit.
EDIT: I also love how you've gone into some detail on equipment, just as a topic that isn't covered very often in such detail.EDIT2: Equipment does have a bit of an issue with font size, with some of it being smaller than the rest.
EDIT3: Finally, I appreciate the listing of sources, as it really helps those who are limited in the rulebooks they have accessible. As well, if you'd like, I wouldn't mind helping put together some sample builds for you, just to cut down on some of the work that needs to be done?
Thanks for the comments!
I will be doing some significant formatting adjustments once I've finished covering all of the equipment in the core rules. Do you think that it would be better to decrease or increase the overall font size? I typically like to keep things smaller, but I keep my screens fairly crowded, and I work in an offline copy anyway. I am very open to formatting suggestions.
As for listing sources, that started because I largely use my physical books more than anything else, and I don't like losing track of where things are. I find it extremely valuable to mark where things are when they're important for what I'm working on. I'll also admit to an ulterior motive in wanting to lead people towards books that they may not have bought without having seen the options listed in here.
I feel like keeping it consistent through the whole document would work best, so the smaller font would work nicely. That does make a bit of a problem for those who have trouble reading small font, but I feel the document is far too long to try and have it all in large font.
Also, I'm really wanting to make some Mystic Theurges now, especially with some of the more esoteric options like Shaman.
It seems I was indeed missing something big.
Ah well. I had great big plans to, if I ever entered PFS, do a mystic theurge. I suppose that shrinks the list of arcane SLAs a bit, since I gather the tiefling and aasimar is unavailable for late arrivals, and the drow magic ART is banned.
If there's a PFS legal way for other races to steal access to racial feats, I suppose I could snag the long-nose form feat.
That's pretty hilarious on a human trickster character, come to think of it. When he gets caught in a trick, her nose grows.
Otherwise, (Seperatist)clr/wiz or (emp)sorc/MT tengu with long-nose form could work. Con penalty hurts, but ehh.
Otherwise, (evangelist)Clr/wiz(or (Emp)sorc)/MT tengu with long-nose form could work. Con penalty hurts, but ehh.
I suppose I hadn't thought of it before, but a human could qualify for early entry by taking Racial Heritage (Tengu) and Long Nose Form.
It would be an amusingly roundabout route, but legal by RAW. They could, by benefit of their avian ancestors, look more human than human?
I feel like keeping it consistent through the whole document would work best, so the smaller font would work nicely. That does make a bit of a problem for those who have trouble reading small font, but I feel the document is far too long to try and have it all in large font.
Also, I'm really wanting to make some Mystic Theurges now, especially with some of the more esoteric options like Shaman.
As I cover more of the campaign setting and player companion books, I may split the subsections off into separate documents and link to them. It's getting a little bit unwieldy to load. Either way, I will go through it after I complete the equipment section and enforce some sort of size standard, so that it is easier on the eyes.
Also, I have a rules thing with the Ring of Tactical Precision.
It does not actually work to boost your Caster Level unless your allies also have the spell prepared (or available to cast)
[...] If your ally has the same spell prepared (or known with a slot available if they are spontaneous spellcasters), this bonus increases to +4 and you receive a +1 bonus to the caster level for all level-dependent variables, such as duration, range, and effect.
Emphasis mine.
As amusing as it would be, that would be a bit ridiculous. It would work well if you have some allies to perform it with, but it doesn't seem like it would be that good. It also would only work if you were surrounded by your allied spellcasters, which makes it a bit worse, and the fluctuating Caster Level could be very detrimental.
Otherwise, (evangelist)Clr/wiz(or (Emp)sorc)/MT tengu with long-nose form could work. Con penalty hurts, but ehh.I suppose I hadn't thought of it before, but a human could qualify for early entry by taking Racial Heritage (Tengu) and Long Nose Form.
It would be an amusingly roundabout route, but legal by RAW. They could, by benefit of their avian ancestors, look more human than human?
Except for the nose, you know.
Otherwise, (evangelist)Clr/wiz(or (Emp)sorc)/MT tengu with long-nose form could work. Con penalty hurts, but ehh.I suppose I hadn't thought of it before, but a human could qualify for early entry by taking Racial Heritage (Tengu) and Long Nose Form.
It would be an amusingly roundabout route, but legal by RAW. They could, by benefit of their avian ancestors, look more human than human?
Except for the nose, you know.
Also, I have a rules thing with the Ring of Tactical Precision.
It does not actually work to boost your Caster Level unless your allies also have the spell prepared (or available to cast)
[...] If your ally has the same spell prepared (or known with a slot available if they are spontaneous spellcasters), this bonus increases to +4 and you receive a +1 bonus to the caster level for all level-dependent variables, such as duration, range, and effect.Emphasis mine.
As amusing as it would be, that would be a bit ridiculous. It would work well if you have some allies to perform it with, but it doesn't seem like it would be that good. It also would only work if you were surrounded by your allied spellcasters, which makes it a bit worse, and the fluctuating Caster Level could be very detrimental.
Well, the entire concept was to take advantage of the fluctuating caster level to boost it drastically out of combat when you need it. I have seen several necromancer builds use similar tricks to raise their animate dead caster level to absurd degrees.
I think I overestimated just how many 5th level followers we could get. This is still quite nice, but not until you begin to max out your leadership score. After consideration, I'll probably reduce the rating on this to green. There are still a lot of spells that can take advantage of an increased caster level outside of combat.
Although using Leadership and low level witches with the coven hex tends to work much better than this, and is much more reliable.
Aye, I'd suppose so. Use a lot of Blood Money shenanigans to send out rampant uncontrolled hordes of Undead, since you'd lose control of them as soon as your coven was ended(?).
I do really like that idea, I might use it for a villainous set of Witches.
Next update is live. I made some edits according to some comments made here.
The empty spaces between sections have been largely removed. The font sizes have been normalized to a larger size for ease of reading. Some grammar and spelling errors that were sent to me via PM and email have been corrected as well. Most of the wondrous items from the Core Rulebook have been added to the equipment section. I will attempt to add the remainder of them tonight after dinner. The notes on the ecclesitheurge have been added, and some race and archetype notes from the original couple of weeks of writing have been adjusted slightly.
I agree with Hmm ... and it isn't just because her avatar is hot.
IMO it's worth noting somewhere in the handbook that multiclassing in PF robs you of favored class bonuses and all the class features but spellcasting. For sorcerers and oracles, especially humans, it's roughly half a tier worth of stuff.
Thanks for the kind words, everyone. I certainly appreciate it.
And that is certainly noteworthy, Nyaa. It matters for a lot of builds and should be noted. I will consider the best place to include it, and make a note of it somewhere.
The next update is now live, which includes the remainder of the wondrous items from the core rulebook, and some additional formatting adjustments. I'm sorry to whoever was in the file at the time I updated it, it may have loaded weird for a moment.
I am going to take the dive and begin work on Arcane Bond and familiars before expanding outwards to cover the remainder of the wondrous items from the rest of the core assumption. That way, I can complete the entirety of the core assumption simultaneously, and then spiral outwards and complete each campaign setting and player companion book in it's entirety with one pass. I expect Arcane Bond to take a bit of effort, though. Wish me luck!
Having written a guide myself I know the amount of work that goes in (I have updates to do for my Rogue and I have a Cavalier guide in process.) I thought my 60ish page guide was a monster... 136! Kudos to you
A few pages of notes on Arcane Bonds for both Item Bonds and Familiars from the core rulebook have been added, as well as the first few tidbits of notes on Improved Familiars, which I have not completed in full. I will attempt to move the remainder of the improved familiars notes from my handwritten notes to the digital copy tonight. I have referenced a few things again that are not necessarily covered yet, they have been added to the todos list to prevent me from forgetting about them.
Wow . . . that is a huge amount of work. But I vote for keeping the font size the same as most of the document (not the equipment section) has -- no sense of shortchanging yourself in showing how monumental the work is, or of shortchanging readers who have broken eye lenses (glasses/contacts do not fix). Besides, unless Google Docs does something really weird, the document shouldn't take up any more storage space for having medium font instead of small font.
I think a Prestige Class like this NEEDS a document that big.
Any thoughts on tweaks you'd like to see made to the Prestige Class itself (like say, for instance, in Pathfinder Unchained or one of its companions)?