General Discussion: Kineticist


Rules Discussion

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Mark Seifter wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:

Fortunately, there's still plenty to be done even if the meeting keeps getting delayed. Oh my, what's this slipping out of hands and into a spoiler block? Is it a potential new infusion write-up? My hands must be getting shaky with all this waiting. ;)

** spoiler omitted **

Now that is awesome--makes me wish I had any interest in pyrokinesis.

My goal is to make you have interest in kineticists of all types!

Well, you sure made me interested in the pyrokineticist for the first time! I kind of feel that more metaphysical powers like this makes perfect sense for an occult class and adds to the flavor immensely. I'd love to see more powers in the same vein in the finished product!


Mark Seifter wrote:

Fortunately, there's still plenty to be done even if the meeting keeps getting delayed. Oh my, what's this slipping out of hands and into a spoiler block? Is it a potential new infusion write-up? My hands must be getting shaky with all this waiting. ;)

** spoiler omitted **

Interesting Mark, thanks for the info!


Mark Seifter wrote:
My goal is to make you have interest in kineticists of all types!

Whenever presented with a choice of the four elements, I always gravitate towards water. You can maybe pull me away with sufficiently awesome earth, but fire and air just aren't my things.

I've grown to really like the potential of Aether, though, so, you've succeeded in interesting me in 3 out of 5 possible Kineticists, and Unraveling is making me jealous, so, that's pretty damn good.

Really, though, considering I'll also have the Medium complete with 54 harrow spirits to play with, it's just mean trying to make me interested in so many elements--there's no way I'll have the chance to play all that.


I like that it works off fire resist/immunity spells first. That's an awesome way to target differently from normal. I would say that if there is more than one protection from fire source going on, we need a tiebreaker criteria.

The extra incentive to use burn is good, but only really for the DC and SR (which is plenty for me, I surely do appreciate it and will use it as is) because the fire kineticist uses exclusively touch ac attacks. So no particular reason to boost to hit. Unless this functions with composite blasts other than BFB? If it works with Magma and such, we might really be cooking with charcoal. :)

Sounds like you're as antsy as we are to see this all get laid out. Is something particular delaying the meetings, or just general red tape?

Designer

Shiroi wrote:

I like that it works off fire resist/immunity spells first. That's an awesome way to target differently from normal. I would say that if there is more than one protection from fire source going on, we need a tiebreaker criteria.

The extra incentive to use burn is good, but only really for the DC and SR (which is plenty for me, I surely do appreciate it and will use it as is) because the fire kineticist uses exclusively touch ac attacks. So no particular reason to boost to hit. Unless this functions with composite blasts other than BFB? If it works with Magma and such, we might really be cooking with charcoal. :)

Sounds like you're as antsy as we are to see this all get laid out. Is something particular delaying the meetings, or just general red tape?

Tiebreak as per usual dispel magic.

Accuracy does affect magma, steam, and plasma.

General red tape.


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Just putting all the additional stuff in one spot. Though, for some reason I suspect Kaio-Ken wont be in the final product :P

Oct 28, 2014, 07:04 PM
Extra Wild Talent
Prerequisites: kineticist level 6th
Benefit: You gain a wild talent that requires kineticist level 1st. At kineticist level 10th, you can instead choose to gain a wild talent that requires kineticist level 6th. At kineticist level 16th, you can instead choose to gain a wild talent that requires kineticist level 10th. In any case, you can't choose a wild talent if you don't meet its prerequisites.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time, you must choose a different wild talent.

Oct 31, 2014, 03:31 AM
Tandem Composite [Teamwork]
Whether you are shooting your flame into your partner's water to create steam or chilling your partner's air to create a snowstorm, you can combine elements together with another kineticist to deadly effect.
Prerequisites: Kineticist 1st
Benefit: You can spend a full-round action to ready a special action to activate a simple blast of your choice with another character within 15 feet who has this feat.

Whenever another character with this feat takes the special action to ready for your turn, if you fire a different simple blast on your turn that can form a composite blast with the other character's blast, the two simple blasts combine to form a composite blast. The composite blast deals damage as if formed by a kineticist with a level the average of your two caster levels, and its caster level is also that level. One of you may provide a form infusion appropriate for the composite blast, and the other may provide a substance infusion appropriate for the composite blast. Each of you takes burn separately for these infusions. Only the character who didn't take the special ready action can apply metakinesis to the blast, and they are the only one who can gather power to reduce the blast's cost (since only they have a move action to take just before blasting). However, whatever metakinesis they apply affects the entire composite blast. If the two characters are not adjacent, the origin point of cones, lines, and other effects that normally originate from a vertex in a character's square instead originate from a vertex in the square located halfway in between the two characters (where the twin blasts meet and form the composite). The blast uses the Con modifier of whoever provided the substance infusion and the Dex modifier of whoever provided the form infusion. If only one infusion was provided, the other participant provides the missing modifier. If there are no infusions, the two participants can choose which Dex modifier and which Con modifier to use, but in any case the same participant can't provide both.

Nov 8, 2014, 07:06 PM
Kaio-Ken

Prerequisites: Power Level 9001
Benefit: For each half-hour you scream and grunt inarticulately, the GM plays out a cut-scene with other characters reacting to your power charge. When you release this charge, if you charged for at least 1 hour, reduce your total burn by 2 and you can apply your available metakineses twice. If you charged for at least 8 hours, reduce your total burn by 4, you can ignore your per-round limit on burn, and you can apply your available metakineses three times. If you charged for at least 24 hours, reduce your total burn by 6, you can ignore your per-round limit on burn, and you can apply your available metakineses four times. If you charged for at least 72 hours, reduce your total burn by 8, you can ignore your per-round limit on burn, and you can apply your available metakineses five times. If you charged for at least 168 hours (1 full week), reduce your total burn by 10, you can ignore your per-round limit on burn and you can double the normal limit of 3+Constitution modifier on burn, and you can apply your available metakineses six times.

4 hours, 26 minutes ago
Unraveling Infusion
Element fire; Type substance infusion; Level 6; Burn 3
Prerequisites kineticist level 10th
Associated Blasts blue flame, fire
Saving Throw none
Your kinetic blast burns so hot that it melts away your foe’s magical effects. Whenever an infused blast hits a foe and penetrates spell resistance, you may roll an opposed caster level check as if using a targeted dispel magic, before determining if the foe takes damage from the blast. You may choose to reduce the blast’s damage by half to increase your bonus on the caster level check by 2. If you do not choose a specific spell effect to attempt to dispel, you automatically attempt to dispel spells that would protect the target from fire damage before all other spells.


Nooo Kaio Ken, I need to have it :p

Call it 'Burninating all night long' or something...


Mark Seifter wrote:


My goal is to make you have interest in kineticists of all types!

Oh my, how tempting it might be with this potential additional line on burning infusion! "All fire kinetic blasts gain a +2 to DCs and on attack rolls and caster level checks to overcome SR against a creature that is on fire from this infusion."

As great as that addition to burning infusion is, I'm still not sure how butning infusion is supposed to be used and would like it clarified in the final version.

So far my understanding goes like this:
If pyro burning infusion fire blasts target. Target takes the normal blast damage.
If target fails saving throw (currently DC 15 = 10 + 1/2 kineticist level + Con mod), target catches on fire.
As per the PRD's Catching on Fire rules, in each subsequent round, the burning character must make another Reflex saving throw. Failure means he takes another 1d6 points of damage that round. Success means that the fire has gone out—that is, once he succeeds on his saving throw, he's no longer on fire.
However, I don't know what action it is for the burning infusion's fire to be put out. Your kinetic blast ignites your foes. Whenever an infused blast deals fire damage to a foe, that foe catches on fire. Foes that are on fire take 1d6 points of fire damage each round until they put out the flames. No action stated on putting it fire.

If I'm wrong or missing something, could someone please share? I'm still hoping to play my pyrokineticist in PFS and I want to stick as close to RAW/RAI as I can despite my confusion.


mplindustries wrote:
But...

Replying in a spoiler because it's detracting from the thread, and I'd prefer to not visibly derail the thread if possible. :)

Spoiler:

mplindustries wrote:
But you have to realize how atypical that is. I can't decide if I would find that totally awesome, or if I would say to the group, "Why the hell are we playing Pathfinder, a game geared 90% around combat, instead of one of the hundreds of other RPGs better suited for this kind of stuff.

I think this is where we disagree more than anywhere else. 90% of the possible builds in Pathfinder aren't very combat oriented at all. Now, online that is a different story because there's such a focus on Optimization with people rushing to build the first "Guide" for each class even. But in games, at least in the various games I've played in, people build a character without internet influence, without optimization. It's so bad that I've seen people with "Cleave" pass up on "Greater Cleave" to take "Mobility" (albeit because he saw Combat Patrol).

Pathfinder can indeed be fantastic for combat, particularly if you take a two-handed weapon. But groups I've played in rarely see a Fighter or Barbarian or ever a concept that focuses on brute force combat. Our Warrior of the Holy Light started with an Iron Longsword because he wanted to keep as close as possible to a Holy Avenger. He now has Cleave, but only because he got a Holy Iron two handed sword and decided he didn't need his shield.

Example... my current group (there's 2, but I DM the other one).

The Warrior of the Holy Light, considered the weakest version of a Paladin since he dumps spells for practically nothing at all, is by far our greatest fighter. When there's combat, we all try to keep him alive because he's the only one that can really do damage, and since he only recently got Greater Cleave, it's only recently that we've been awe'd by his success in combat.

Our Monk, while good-ish in a fight, isn't that great at all. Like my Wizard, he uses Gaseous Form alot, and all his other abilities seem to be focused on movement, like Acrobatic Steps. He calls himself a Ninja (Infiltrator concept) because we've been playing since before Ultimate Combat came out.

Our Illusionist (Bard Archelogist BTW) is pretty much the worst in a fight of our group... but he doesn't care, he's the "face" of the group who resolves all our social conflicts. His greatest input into a battle is using Major Image to pretend we're a larger force than we are.... he refuses to even consider "Shadow" creatures though. His main focus is on invis spells, Image spells, and disguise spells. (We forget he's a Bard at times...)

Our Druid, because she did "Pack Lord" has companions too weak for the game, but it allowed her to have "pets" (and she's a girl, and this was just 'awesome' for her :P). She's better in combat than she thinks though, and so avoids combat especially if it will hurt her animals. Still, she has natural attacks and the Multiattack feat, so she's pretty tough in a fight if cornered. :P

The Cleric is a veritable tank, AC 28 and is renown for his channeling for healing. Not a single combat feat though, just sharp senses, eagle eyes, alertness, etc... level 8 with a +32 Perception and +27 Sense Motive. (a lot from magic items).

Each person has their niche, and Combat isn't the sole locale for those niches. The Druid and Cleric are our spies and eyes, the illusionist is his own thing, the monk is our infiltrator (as was my Wizard), and only the Paladin really has an interest in combat.

Point being... these are the sorts of characters I always see in groups that don't go hanging out on these forums. Even my own group that only plays once a month... there's exactly 2 people of 5 that have any combat skills. The Barbarian and another Druid. The Barbarian though, after hours of debating between playing an Oracle or a Barbarian decided (with my suggestion) to forego his Rage Powers and gain Oracle Revelations and Clouded Vision instead. Sounds terrible, but this option excited him at levels that a Telekinetic character excites me. And it does balance out a bit at 7th level when he suddenly gets to have a Fire Elemental Body. He's the one that was foregoing Greater Cleave to take Mobility to gain Combat Patrol in the future.

The Druid is the only one in that group that read through the optimization guides, and he makes the Barbarian look inept. The Witch in the group took the Prehensile Hair and Nails (instead of just getting daggers...), and is as helpful in a combat situation as a puppy. But I like this... she's playing her character, and just having fun with it.

The thing is, a DM has 2 choices... either teach his players a lesson which encourages them to focus on combat, or builds the story around what their character concepts are and comes up with alternatives to combat. Our DM saw that we all built stealth-ish characters (except the Paladin of course, who is a literal beacon of light) so our stories are very infiltration based with many story lines having us separating from the Paladin who likes best to be a distraction away from what the rest of the party is doing.

Now... that that's out of the way, commenting on the rest of your post. :P

E8 Kinetics. #1, we're assuming there'll be a feat, not waiting til 6th level, to gain extra Talents. #2, that's kinda the whole point of my "Stunts" suggestion... increased utility.

A lot of the rest (of your comments) is dependent on combat-intensive games. Last game, I disarmed the guards (who weren't holding their weapons because they were around a campfire eating) telekinetically, sabotaged the war machines from a distance without coming out of hiding (though we'll have to see if that worked still, it was a hidden roll), stole plans from a tent without entering the tent, and did a lot of "fun" things. Even used my Foe Throw to toss an alerted guard into a tent which caused it to collapse on top of him, while we made our escape. I felt very Utility.


Shiroi wrote:
Sphynx wrote:


The thing is, when I was first coming up with the idea, the ideas were things that the existing talents could already questionably do. (Such as using Finesse to Steal, but in combat). It just got expanded further than intended I suppose. Also, it would require that all these "stunts" be available at the same level as their prerequisites. I understand wanting to stick to existing mechanics, but just not sure that's right for this. :/

That helps me to narrow our focus. Actually, you're not looking for an archetype at all. You happen to be looking for... Exactly what this class should have had all along. More utility. More flexible interpretations of what can be done with powers. A rider at the top of the class that says "GM may allow any reasonable use of the ability to manipulate objects or elements, these abilities should be no stronger than one spell level lower than the highest spell level the player could have access to if they were a Cleric or sorcerer, plus one additional spell level worth of effect for each burn spent. These abilities do not need to mimic the effects of an existing spell, but should be considered with this power limitation in mind. When using this general manipulation, any invoked DC, Dispelling effect, or similar caster level check considers the effect to be a spell with a level equal to..."

And yes, I know this wording would sadly never fly. But bluntly speaking I have a loose interpretation of the magic rules. I as a DM tend to readjust spell levels depending badly my players can abuse them (or not), create magic items that don't normally exist, and allow people to create new spells. No aoe cold effect in your spell level? Use this one, deal cold. It happened. Why? Because magic. Don't think you can use it to do acid later, you learned the cold version. Learn acid next level. Or spend time in a library.

Magic is supposed to be flexible and powerful. Most systems with listed spells take that flexibility out to keep it from being too powerful,...

+1

The wording would be abused like crazy of course, but yeah... that was the original idea of Stunts. To do the wording in a way that rules-lawyers couldn't abuse it.


Mark Seifter wrote:

Fortunately, there's still plenty to be done even if the meeting keeps getting delayed. Oh my, what's this slipping out of hands and into a spoiler block? Is it a potential new infusion write-up? My hands must be getting shaky with all this waiting. ;)

** spoiler omitted **

I'm sorry, but I think this is a bad idea. :(

So far, everything has been very thematic. This goes completely against all theme. Unless fire has the ability (without the pyrokinetic) to burn away magic, this makes no sense. It's an awesome ability to be sure, but since when does fire burn magic?

This is too reminiscent of 4e's stating that a Telekinetic Psion could teleport because he's using telekinesis to rip open a hole in space/time. Telekinesis doesn't rip open holes in space time, and fire, of itself, doesn't burn magic away. :(

Liberty's Edge

Sphynx wrote:
I'm sorry, but I think this is a bad idea. :(

I disagree profoundly.

Sphynx wrote:
So far, everything has been very thematic. This goes completely against all theme. Unless fire has the ability (without the pyrokinetic) to burn away magic, this makes no sense. It's an awesome ability to be sure, but since when does fire burn magic?

Thematically? Since always. Fire consumes things, that is its nature, and when you combine that with the idea of magical fire...fire consuming magic makes all the sense in the world.

Sphynx wrote:
This is too reminiscent of 4e's stating that a Telekinetic Psion could teleport because he's using telekinesis to rip open a hole in space/time. Telekinesis doesn't rip open holes in space time, and fire, of itself, doesn't burn magic away. :(

Nah. There's a strong thematic link between the idea of fire and the power shown...there's no such link between telekinesis and teleportation.


Sphynx wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
But...

Replying in a spoiler because it's detracting from the thread, and I'd prefer to not visibly derail the thread if possible. :)

** spoiler omitted **...

Ok, slight continuance of side topic:
I'm not talking about characters in Pathfinder being 90% combat focused (though, with the exception of skill points, literally all of a class's core features are combat related: Hit Dice, BAB, Saves, Proficiencies...). No, I'm talking about the game itself. Pathfinder is 90% about combat because, well, it is. Look at the rules. The skill system in Pathfinder (frankly, D&D in general) is one of the worst I've ever used in any RPG. Practically all of them have a better skill system because, well, those other games are about stuff other than killing stuff. Pathfinder has a "yeah, ok, we have skills I guess" system but the vast majority is about kicking ass. That's basically the point of the game.

Now, I don't us APs at all, but they are a good indication of what the writers expect a game to be about. The parties you described would be ripped apart by an AP--no chance at all--because the game assumes you'll be able to fight, because fighting is the point.

Seriously, do you guys know other RPGs? I really think you'd do well to try one and see what it's like, rather than relying on a clumsy skill system tacked on as an afterthought to a robust butt-kicking engine.

Sphynx wrote:

I'm sorry, but I think this is a bad idea. :(

So far, everything has been very thematic. This goes completely against all theme. Unless fire has the ability (without the pyrokinetic) to burn away magic, this makes no sense. It's an awesome ability to be sure, but since when does fire burn magic?

This is too reminiscent of 4e's stating that a Telekinetic Psion could teleport because he's using telekinesis to rip open a hole in space/time. Telekinesis doesn't rip open holes in space time, and fire, of itself, doesn't burn magic away. :(

I'm a little confused. This stuff is magic. Magic doesn't follow your logic, necessarily. I'm summoning fire from the Ethereal Plane. If my magic, Ethereal Fire says it can burn magic, it can burn magic. It's not like I'm using flint and steel here.

And who says Telekinesis can't rip open holes in space/time? Telekinesis isn't real, so, who decides what it can't do? 4e had some Epic stuff in it. It had abilities that began with the phrase, "Once pr day, when you die..." Everything dialed to 11. Fighters could cleave mountains, so why couldn't telekinetics cleave space/time?

You would not have gotten to that ability, I'm sure, playing E6 or E8 in 4e, and your group will also never get to Unraveling, either. It's magic, beyond the scope of the down-to-earth games you (and I, honestly) prefer.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I have no problem with high level TKs learning teleport/Apportation.


Spoiler:

@mplIndustries

We just disagree, and yes we've played almost every game out there. From the extreme opposite in Ars Magica to the non-sensical 4e, to GURPS, and converted systems like Shadowrun (not to mention World of Darkness, Anima - Beyond Fantasy, Armageddon by Eden Studios, and various superhero games of which we liked Wild Talents the best). We like Pathfinder.

But that's irrelevant. The point remains, despite it being a RPG built on a combat system (which is pretty much any RPG ever since the only time you really need rules in an RPG is when dealing with conflict, of which combat is the most common form) a LOT of people play for the roleplaying part.

The classes are far better than DnD, and most Pathfinder players are obviously either DnD converts, or players who learned of the game through DnD converts. There simply isn't anything like a Sylph Air Wizard (or Telekineticist) in other games, and people who aren't so much into the combat DO like to build a character that fits their personal view of the character. No game is better at that than Pathfinder. We may not be the loudest voices, as that is oft reserved for people into the system more than the scenario (the only reason I even emerged is because I really wanted some input into what is my favorite class), but I do believe we are the majority based on my experiences. So please, quit trying to dissuade me from playing Pathfinder.

Secondly, have you not seen most of the archetypes out there? While Pathfinder may be built on a combat system, there are a bunch of archetypes that Pathfinder created which based on your comments, would never ever have made it into books if you had a say. It doesn't always have to be combat-balanced. Sometimes theme is far more important. Now, I understand that as a player we all may feel the need to make sure when we get a class that meets our view of our character, we want to make sure we don't lose combat advantage in the process... that's understandable, especially if our games are more combat oriented. Nobody wants to feel like their sole contribution to a battle is cheering from the sidelines. But that's not the case here. Yeah, we suck if dealing with mobs or high-AC targets since we have no feats to balance against high AC and few area effects... but we can pour on the juice against a single target. Now... my experience is in a less-combat focused group, obviously. The only real combat monster(ish) in the group is the Paladin who with his 2-handed cleaving, is doing pretty well. But I was doing better damage in one-on-one, having done more damage against the Demon in a single hit than he's ever done to a target. Admittedly, I confirmed on a nat-20, and rolled more than 50% 6's, but still... we do hit pretty hard.

Not even sure where I'm going with this anymore... rambling most likely. Hope you see where I'm coming from. :P


mplindustries wrote:


I'm a little confused. This stuff is magic. Magic doesn't follow your logic, necessarily. I'm summoning fire from the Ethereal Plane. If my magic, Ethereal Fire says it can burn magic, it can burn magic. It's not like I'm using flint and steel here.

No, no it's not, and that's the point, this is not "Arcane", this is kinetic a literal forcing of will over matter (or in this case, fire). However, I can't imagine any player, especially of a Pyrokinetic is going to complain, so pretty sure my dissent is just noise anyhows. But I still disagree... just because you use the "Burn" adjective doesn't make it thematic to burn away like Dispel Magic.

Quote:


And who says Telekinesis can't rip open holes in space/time? Telekinesis isn't real, so, who decides what it can't do?

Because it can't. A person who fantasizes about having a telekinetic ability isn't thinking teleportation. It's like suggesting that Jean Grey (pre-Phoenix of course) should have been able to teleport. Telekinesis is literally just control of "kinetic" energy (movement). It is not God Hands that get a hand-hold on the space-time continuum and rip it open somehow. Throwing the adjective "telekinetic" doesn't make it thematic.


If your literally forcing your will over matter and energy then time and space shouldn't be outside the realm of possibility. So I am fine with abilities like teleport, plane shift, and maybe even time stop.

Well if were talking about the mental power to control kinetic energy but uses your con score instead of one of character's mental scores as "casting stat" then I say anything goes.

It is all about options, there for those who will use them, if you don't like it you don't have to use them.

Also I have already asked for archetypes that use int and cha, now for one that is wisdom based. Maybe with some ki abilities as well.


Sphynx wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
I'm a little confused. This stuff is magic. Magic doesn't follow your logic, necessarily. I'm summoning fire from the Ethereal Plane. If my magic, Ethereal Fire says it can burn magic, it can burn magic. It's not like I'm using flint and steel here.
No, no it's not, and that's the point, this is not "Arcane", this is kinetic a literal forcing of will over matter (or in this case, fire). However, I can't imagine any player, especially of a Pyrokinetic is going to complain, so pretty sure my dissent is just noise anyhows. But I still disagree... just because you use the "Burn" adjective doesn't make it thematic to burn away like Dispel Magic.

Fire burning away magic is actually very thematic.

"Cleansing Flame"
"Purging Fire"
"Reborn in Flames"

Fire is known for it's destruction, but also for it's ability to cleanse or purify something, like in smelting. It's why fire is so often used in religious speeches when it talks about cleansing evil or sin from the land, because fire consumes everything, and in the aftermath of a fire, new life is born. In this way, the Pyrokineticist is using his flames the purge the magic from someone by burning it away.

Sphynx wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
And who says Telekinesis can't rip open holes in space/time? Telekinesis isn't real, so, who decides what it can't do?
Because it can't. A person who fantasizes about having a telekinetic ability isn't thinking teleportation. It's like suggesting that Jean Grey (pre-Phoenix of course) should have been able to teleport. Telekinesis is literally just control of "kinetic" energy (movement). It is not God Hands that get a hand-hold on the space-time continuum and rip it open somehow. Throwing the adjective "telekinetic" doesn't make it thematic.

And exactly who are you to be the ultimate arbitrator on what telekinesis can and cannot do? Telekinesis is the ability to move objects with your mind by manipulating kinetic energy. Depending on the level of detail and control one has, one could rip open a whole in space time, because you are still moving stuff. It's not different than being able to manipulate the kinetic energy in atoms to cause them to pull apart and reshape themselves into something else. You could use this offensively to mimic the disintegrate spell or the spell fabricate.

I personally don't agree with telekinesis being used to teleport, but I can see how someone would come to that argument.

Shadow Lodge

wooo!!! we get to burn away magic now hehe, so awesome!!!

BBEV: haha you fire power wont effect me cuase of my spell!

Me:we'll i'm just going to burn that away now

BBEV: well f***

HAHA XD so epicly cool!


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Totally just had a brilliantstupid idea. Cast awaken on a giant frog and teach it to become a telekineticist. Carry around lots of bags of leaves, and now, whenever it comes time for the frog to attack, you shout:

"Bulbasaur, use Razor Leaf!"


Who's up for playing in a world full of awoken animals with kineticist levels in which you must capture and train them to adventure?


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I hope the post-mortem comes out today so Mark can be like "See? Wednesday-ish!".


In retrospect, I kind of wish I hadn't posted that pokemon idea above, as it now belongs to Paizo. Still, I am absolutely going to drop that Easter egg in a campaign some day.


I just want to point out something in regard to the Telekineticist:

From the playtest -- "Telekineticists use strands of aether to move objects with their minds"

The Telekineticist is a master of Aether, just like the Pyrokinetic is a master of Fire, and the Hydrokinetic is a master of Water.

If you want your Aether to rip open portals for teleportation and such. . .why not?


Sphynx wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

No, no it's not, and that's the point, this is not "Arcane", this is kinetic a literal forcing of will over matter (or in this case, fire). However, I can't imagine any player, especially of a Pyrokinetic is going to complain, so pretty sure my dissent is just noise anyhows. But I still disagree... just because you use the "Burn" adjective doesn't make it thematic to burn away like Dispel Magic.

Final aside:
I am failing to communicate here because I am not trying to dissuade you from doing what you like or saying that you're doing anything wrong. It is just in my experience, I have met four kinds of Pathfinder players over the years:

1) Those unaware of and/or unwilling to try rpgs other than D&D that just consider Pathfinder the best version of D&D (this is the vast majority, in my experience)

2) Those who like Pathfinder because they just want "beer and pretzel" butt kicking games, not anything serious or deep like you'd get with, say, World of Darkness

3) Those most comfortable with the Pathfinder rules and massive amounts of support material, such that, while willing to try something else, they always default to pathfinder, especially when offering to GM

4) Those who don't love or hate it but are forced to play pathfinder by people in the group that fit the other 3 categories. I am not saying I hate Pathfinder or anything, just that I would rather play maybe a half dozen other games if given the choice.

And, while I don't personally like GURPS, I guarantee you could make a sylph air wizard in it. And I could get you a power set that is similar in several more games to boot. But I am apparently offending you, which was never my intention, so, I will just apologize and drop it

That said, it IS magic. These abilities are psychic spell like abilities. There's a section called "psychic magic." This is absolutely 100% NOT mind over matter stuff, that's psionics. Psychic magic is, instead, Victorian era occultism. It's not about the human brain working harder, it's about having contact with ghosts and junk. It's seances and Aleister Crowley, not Jean Grey or other sci-fi psychics.

Sphynx wrote:
Because it can't. A person who fantasizes about having a telekinetic ability isn't thinking teleportation. It's like suggesting that Jean Grey (pre-Phoenix of course) should have been able to teleport. Telekinesis is literally just control of "kinetic" energy (movement). It is not God Hands that get a hand-hold on the space-time continuum and rip it open somehow. Throwing the adjective "telekinetic" doesn't make it thematic.

This is a bit selfish, isn't it? You may just want to be Jean Grey, but about people that want to be Phoenix? You're assigning a power limit here--you're arbitrarily demanding the scope conform to your ideal. We're talking about a game where a high level wizard can create a new plane of existence and a high level barbarian can destroy said plane by punching it. Why can't you ramp up the scope of the kineticist's powers in a similar fashion? You can stop at level 6 or 8 before that stuff happens, but at the higher levels, you can't be limited by mundanity or you end up with Fighters and Rogues. You have to let these powers expand thematically.

Magic fire should totally get to burn away spells. Frankly, I think magic water should get to wash it away, too, and fire should get healing. But really, this stuff is magic, no matter what you'd prefer. Sorry.


As others have said, the "cleansing" and "all consuming" qualities applied to mystical flame is really fitting for Occult Adventures. Had this been, say, GURPS Psionics then I would likely just roll my eyes, but for this it's awesome!

In fact, there's even some other mystical qualities of elements that could make for interesting wild talents. The fact that the concepts of "breath" and "soul/spirit" is closely connected in many cultures could make for some interesting options for an aerokineticist for example.


Tels wrote:

Totally just had a brilliantstupid idea. Cast awaken on a giant frog and teach it to become a telekineticist. Carry around lots of bags of leaves, and now, whenever it comes time for the frog to attack, you shout:

"Bulbasaur, use Razor Leaf!"

Thought you might find this interesting. Pokemon Reversal Reference

I hope, given that both released abilities are pyro, that everyone else will get some love too. Pyro needed those badly to keep up with other elements, but every element needs more to keep up with the rest of the game (utility wise. I lean towards the power of basic blast being close to right, with AoE being the only part that's far too weak).

I almost feel like (with it being over a year since I read the rules for word casting) that this class could benefit from learning the Word of their element and all the form/substance type words that could be related to that element. Am I very far off with this? As a way to grant utility, for out of combat situations, to utilize word casting as an SLA and assign it a Pseudo caster level for doing so to limit and solidify a solid power level for what you can do with your element as regards control and manipulation.


It would be cool, but honestly, impossible to officially incorporate Wordcasting. It's an OPTIONAL subsystem from a previous supplement. They can't suddenly make both that book and subsystem mandatory to play the class.

Look, it would be really great to get open ended utility. Hell, I had to beg my GM to let me Create Water at a pressure that wasn't "firehose." But this is 3rd edition, and it's a rewrite of a 3rd edition class (Warlock--go pick up your copies of Complete Arcane again. It's remarkably similar despite a much needed total split from the original, unwanted fluff).

We might get a huge list of potential SLA options, but we're absolutely not going to get anything open ended that requires GM judgment. That goes against the entire 3rd edition paradigm (that I hate) of protecting players from their GMs.

Designer

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What's this? Another rough potential wild talent, and this one for all elements? How are these all showing up here?

Flurry of Blasts:
Flurry of Blasts
Element universal; Type form infusion; Level 4; Burn 2
Prerequisites kineticist level 6th; extended range
Associated Blasts any
Saving Throw none
Instead of a single blast, you shoot two blasts at targets within 120 feet that each deal damage as if your kineticist level was 1st, no matter what effects or abilities you have that might increase that amount. No two targets can be more than 30 feet apart. You must assign the targets of all your blasts before rolling any of the attack rolls, and any additional successful attacks on the same target beyond the first deal only a flat 1d6 additional damage, with no bonuses or penalties applied. At 10th level, you can shoot three blasts in your flurry of blasts, and your number of blasts increases to four at 16th level and to five at 20th level. If you are under the effect of haste or similar magic, the number of blasts in your flurry of blasts increases by 1.

The idea for this one is like when you've seen your favorite kineticists in media throwing a barrage of weaker flames or rocks or what have you, figuring that their incredibly agile opponent might dodge some of them but can't dodge them all. In the case of SR kineticists, they are inundating the foe with these little blasts to eventually make it through the SR. In either case, this is particularly useful when you have a substance you want to stick on a foe, say starting with a barrage of magnetized metal shards to make sure your magnetic effect takes.


I'm hard pressed to think of a single reason why I would want to, at 20th level, toss 1 1d6+Con and 4 flat 1d6 blasts instead of a big ol' whopper of a 10d6+Con Empowered Blast.

I guess if I were trying to Entangle multiple guys, or something like that?

Of course then I'm using 2 Burn, plus the Burn of the Substance Infusion I wanna use...

It seems eh. Thematically, as well. Generally characters are tossing weak blasts like there's no tomorrow, because logically throwing a little bit of fire multiple times uses far less energy than throwing a great big gob of soul searing flame once.

You're using 2 Burn, to deal half the damage (assuming all the things hit). Well, LESS than half the damage. Maybe closer to 1/4, since you get no static modifiers at all except on one.


So, at 6th, this deals, potentially, only 1d6 less damage than normal. Especially since, when hasted, you're doing normal damage. Not bad. But it gets worse from there :(

Immediately at 7th, it becomes 2 dice less. 3 at 9th, back to 2 at 10th, then 3 again at 11th.

But, I will say, that if you can afford the specializations for both this form and your favored substance, it could become the best way to deliver conditions so far.

This plus entangling, for example, roots them in place immediately. Magnetic can buff your whole party against a crowd. Hell, you can finally push people more than 5 feet at a time (though good luck making that CMB roll at higher levels anyway). The lost damage matters a lot less for the touch blasts anyway, since it's already low.

I think I would just ask for clarification. It treats me as level 1. Does that mean I don't get to add my Feel the Burn, since that only exists at 3rd+?


Rynjin wrote:
I'm hard pressed to think of a single reason why I would want to, at 20th level, toss 1 1d6+Con and 4 flat 1d6 blasts instead of a big ol' whopper of a 10d6+Con Empowered Blast.

It does, technically do more damage if you hit lots of guys, since they would each eat your con+ftb+1+maybe deadly aim/pbs. And it could be empowered.

But yeah, I agree, the damage is lame--we just need better substances to make this wirthwhile.

Designer

You get static modifiers on the first successful attack against each target of the flurry. And you can use metakinesis the same as always. It can actually do much more damage than you might think, particularly if it's to your advantage based on the fight to spread out the attacks. It also can increase your expected damage more than a little if you have built up big static bonuses (remember they should be getting bigger too) and have a creature with aberrantly high AC or SR that you want to make sure you tag.


It seems kinda niche, for something I'm expected to trade 12 (minimum) HP for every time I use it, or trade my ability to freely use Substance Infusions instead.

I think you're far too conservative with this class' ability to deal damage to multiple targets. This Talent would be perfect if it cost 0 Burn to use. Likewise Explosion would be awesome if it came in at 10th instead of 16th (whooo my effective Capstone is Fireball...).

@MPL: It can't really effectively be Empowered either, unless you like eating 3 Burn instead of 2. You can't use a Move action to reduce Burn on this one since, well, it works as a Full Attack. At least that's how I read it.

If not, it's marginally better, but not something I'd be inclined to take much of the time.

Unraveling Infusion makes me do a happy dance, though. If we get more Talents like that I can handle a few duds.


This is a good idea, the class needed some way to produce a barrage. I would increase damage tough. Maybe counting only 1/2 level or 1/4.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the assumption that the form and substance specializations effected ALL form infusions and ALL substance infusions, respectively.

Why then are people worried so much about the cost? By the time you are high enough level to fire off three blasts, you could easily be using this infusion for free.


Unless you specialized in Substance Infusions...which is really the only time this would be useful.


Deadbeat Doom wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the assumption that the form and substance specializations effected ALL form infusions and ALL substance infusions, respectively.

Why then are people worried so much about the cost? By the time you are high enough level to fire off three blasts, you could easily be using this infusion for free.

You can use THIS for free, but what about the substance unfusion that makes using this worthwhile?

I personally think burn costs on substances and forms are nigh universally at least 1 point too high. The 3.5 Warlock didn't pay anything to use blast shapes or whatever they called substances, and they were still total jokes outside of spamming Chill Tentacles. I like Burn, I don't mind the way it works, but we need more bang for our buck.

Unraveling is awesome. This could be awesome if it were cheaper and/or more damaging.

@Rynjin
It works like a full attack, but I don't see where it says anything about taking more action than the standard blast.

Sovereign Court

Rynjin wrote:


@MPL: It can't really effectively be Empowered either, unless you like eating 3 Burn instead of 2. You can't use a Move action to reduce Burn on this one since, well, it works as a Full Attack. At least that's how I read it.

I would say the wording makes it sound like it takes the same action as you blast would normally, i.e. a standard. The fact that Kinetic Blade specifically calls out being used as part of an attack/full attack option makes me think unless explicitly stated, all infusions are the same action as your blast.

However, I'm still not sold on the infusion, as it seems like it will take until at least level 11 (2 Form specializations and a Substance) to even begin to be worth it. And at that point, you're losing out on 3 damage dice and probably not using Empower because you Gathered Energy to use one of the more useful 2 burn Substance Infusions.

EDIT: I really hope this isn't supposed to be the Blast Kineticist's answer to Kinetic Blade.

Liberty's Edge

Mark Seifter wrote:

What's this? Another rough potential wild talent, and this one for all elements? How are these all showing up here?

** spoiler omitted **

The idea for this one is like when you've seen your favorite kineticists in media throwing a barrage of weaker flames or rocks or what have you, figuring that their incredibly agile opponent might dodge some of them but can't dodge them all. In the case of SR kineticists, they are inundating the foe with these little blasts to eventually make it through the SR. In either case, this is particularly useful when you have a substance you want to stick on a foe, say starting with a barrage of magnetized metal shards to make sure your magnetic effect takes.

This is a really neat concept -- and as a Monk lover, I really like the play on Flurry of Blows -- but I can't help but wonder when I would want to use this. I really don't want to be dealing first level damage at sixth level, even if I do get to divide it. That's just not enough output to justify the Burn and inability to whack a single target for more than either of the two are going to get. It doesn't feel economical.

And waiting until tenth level to up it to three blasts feels overly conservative, IMO. Your damage output is going to fall off in a big way at seventh level, and that's a long time to wait for another blast to even it out a bit. Even then, I still feel like you'd just be better off using your regular blast or any of the other talents you'd have unlocked by then.

I'd suggest just pushing the level requirements on this one down across the board and providing a slight increase in damage. It doesn't need to do as much as a normal blast, but scaling in a way that at least keeps you in the same neighborhood would be nice.


Honestly sounds likecwhat you want is the Mystic from Amora Games.


Lukas Stariha wrote:


EDIT: I really hope this isn't supposed to be the Blast Kineticist's answer to Kinetic Blade.

That's the other big, even hugely disappointing thing about it. Its very existence dashes any hope of being able to sling multiple big Blasts.

That pretty much nails you down to "Less damage than the party Alchemist" right off the bat.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Rynjin wrote:
Lukas Stariha wrote:
EDIT: I really hope this isn't supposed to be the Blast Kineticist's answer to Kinetic Blade.

That's the other big, even hugely disappointing thing about it. Its very existence dashes any hope of being able to sling multiple big Blasts.

That pretty much nails you down to "Less damage than the party Alchemist" right off the bat.

And does this mean that the most optimal route will be going the whip/blade route? I certainly hope not.

I really want to like flurry of blasts. And I appreciate the direction it's going in, to be sure, but it's not quite there yet. Another possible direction might be to divide up the number of damage dice you have between multiple blasts (limited by your level as the infusion is written), but the modifiers stay the same for each blast? It'd be a way to crank out a little more damage than what'd be available with a single blast, but also carries the same benefits and risks as it does now.

For example, a 12th-level kineticist could conceivably shoot three blasts to the tune of 3d6+Con+whatever, 2d6+Con+whatever, and 1d6+Con+whatever. Or does that slingshot it in the opposite direction and become too powerful...? Truth be told, I haven't crunched the numbers yet, but I can't imagine it would be much stronger than archery and other forms of ranged combat are right now...


Rynjin wrote:
Lukas Stariha wrote:


EDIT: I really hope this isn't supposed to be the Blast Kineticist's answer to Kinetic Blade.

That's the other big, even hugely disappointing thing about it. Its very existence dashes any hope of being able to sling multiple big Blasts.

That pretty much nails you down to "Less damage than the party Alchemist" right off the bat.

I still have hope that blast damage is getting a buff, but now, I am starting to get worried that you're right.


Flurry of Blasts looks really weak for it's burn. I mean, it is really low damage. I can't see myself lowering the damage to that extent at high-levels, and actually take burn for the severe damage reduction.


Yes! An Unraveling Flurry of Blue Flame Blasts!

Will FoB be changed to work with feats like improved two-weapon fighting?


If I was to do anything with it, anything at all, I would drop all mods of any kind and make it a number of attacks equal to your Blasts' D6's. So I deal 1d6/2lvls. This gives me 5 weak hits at 10, and so forth. Now it's not about damage at all, it's just about substance delivery. Since I now have up to 10 chances to deliver, I can spend a few burn to nerf a crowd on my turn instead of doing damage. With a feat allowing the D6's to add up BEFORE DR/resistance is applied, this could be a useful way to deal damage and guarantee a nerf on a boss too.


I would just flatly drop it to a bunch of 1d6+Mods blasts equal to the number of d6's you can fire.

Make it work just like Flurry. -2 attack on all hits, but you can make as many as you have dice for.

Damage boost if you hit all your hits, but likely not stacking up to the Nova option (Maximize + Empower). Drop the cost to 1 Burn, but make it take a Full Round.

Some slight investment in Form Infusion Specialization still necessary, but not as much, and more worthwhile to use for BOTH kinds of people (damage and debuffers).

Scarab Sages

Allowing the kineticist to multiply con mod to damage and FtB bonuses by 1/2 character level would be really powerful. Flurry of Blasts would become a must-use talent.


Rynjin wrote:

I would just flatly drop it to a bunch of 1d6+Mods blasts equal to the number of d6's you can fire.

Make it work just like Flurry. -2 attack on all hits, but you can make as many as you have dice for.

Damage boost if you hit all your hits, but likely not stacking up to the Nova option (Maximize + Empower). Drop the cost to 1 Burn, but make it take a Full Round.

Some slight investment in Form Infusion Specialization still necessary, but not as much, and more worthwhile to use for BOTH kinds of people (damage and debuffers).

Mods at lvl 10

+6 con, +3 FtB. Maybe +7 con if you're lucky. (+5 more for non-touch blasts)

So if I do the same number of dice as a regular attack, but add mods to every single one of them...
5x(3.5+9)
5×12.5
62.5 damage.
Plus 5x5 for non touch blasts is 87.5.
Instead of 5d6+12.5= 30, 35 for non touch.

I'd rather not, I think.

Edit, math error, the +5 to each dice wouldn't be that way it would be +1 each, so not 87.5, just 67.5.

Still way out of line unless you are vs a resistance or DR. Now, yes, resistance or DR of any kind will murder this attack. But against anything I get to bypass? DR/ magic? Resistance to the wrong element?

This can get pretty nasty, especially if I want to composite maximize empower it for a nova like none other.

The reason I endorse dropping the bonuses alltogether is so we can get more attacks with it, because if we get full bonuses to every attack this becomes very powerful at high numbers of attacks. We aren't like the TWF rogue, who gets worse accuracy every other swing. We will hit with most of these attacks.


The burn cost on both of those is pretty steep and the effect for Flurry is too weak.

I wouldn't see myself ever taking flurry.

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