I understand that paizo is proud of it's transgenered iconic, i game with a transgenered person, that being said, i don't think it's cool to supress those who disagree.
Chief Technical Officer
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We didn't suppress posts from people who disagree with what we've done. The post is still there to read. (You can even favorite it if you want—somebody else already has.) We locked a thread that our experience tells us was going to quickly turn into a flame war (which, by the way, prevented a person who disagreed with what we've done from being the *target* of said flame war).
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I understand that paizo is proud of it's transgenered iconic, i game with a transgenered person, that being said, i don't think it's cool to supress those who disagree.
To be fair, what Paizo has in fact done is not enable those who disagree. This is a community of inclusion, tolerance, and compassion. Paizo doesn't allow arguments and heated posts regarding dice rolls, spell interpretations, or feat chains. Threads that have nowhere good to go are locked. The thread you're referring to had nowhere good to go.
You know and I know that the only possible substantial replies were going to fit one of two categories:
1} Bashing the original poster.
2} Reinforcing the original poster.
Neither are acceptable behaviour here.
Neither.
So the thread got locked. It was the only sane option.
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Just getting back but:
1. The transgender iconic has been revealed?!
2. I support Paizo having and presenting this iconic. It means a lot to those who seldom get to see heroes like themselves in fiction.
3. Who, where, and when?
I have a lot of catching up to do... D:
Reposting, saying the same idea without any individual references.
You're running. You don't have to include any characters you don't find interesting, that don't fit the setting as you run it, or anything like that.
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Mikaze? You yet live?!
I understand that paizo is proud of it's transgendered iconic, i game with a transgendered person, that being said, i don't think it's cool to suppress those who disagree.
I think the issue is how people express their disagreements.
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What follows is a very long running commentary that I'm writing as it comes into mind. It's very long winded, and probably better summarized at the bottom for those who see TLDR;
I think a better way of putting it, is that Paizo seems to let those who support a certain agenda with a LOT more slack than others.
For example, insults and sexuality against women are rampant on these boards (even if less than at other places) but people get a free pass.
You see total support for those who claim to be something, but heaven help you if you are an actual victim of discrimination, Paizo doesn't do much except either ignore it or join the crowd (case in point, a person had some discrimination, rather brutal, and at the same time some people on THESE boards joined in in a parallel harassment. Paizo's answer was basically to shrug their shoulders in a way that lets those who claim tolerance but are really discriminating and prejudice a bye, whilst someone who has had to flee home for safety...well...I like Paizo's stuff, but am NOT impressed with their supposed "tolerance." It feels as if they do it for the appearance of political correctness, but you get someone who is in real trouble...they'll try to pretend they don't exist.
I think a post of mine pointing out the out and out sexist way Council of Thieves was written in some parts, and how it was offensive, actually got a response to the effect of..."so what?" That's how you should expect to be treated type treatment. Not so happy on my part.
I see posts asking about the iconics and talking about girls, but heaven help you if you bring up a post concerning what WOMEN like to see in men. I did, and I got it locked because some guys obviously found it sexually harassing...but on the otherhand, as the Council of Theives thread showed...there is harassment on these boards against women all the time as well that is much more accepted and tolerated.
My post wasn't really offensive even, just saying what someone may like to see in a guy...and what one may not want to see...which was FAR less offensive than what many guys talk about on these boards.
I can't say I agree completely with the poster, but it does seem to me that Paizo's "tolerance" is more political than real in some instances.
It comes across more "Forced" than natural in their writing from what I've seen. For example, a character in WotR which I probably should be able to relate to extremely well, I simply can't because the the character doesn't flow naturally with that background. It comes across more as forced rather than a natural evolution or presentation.
I like Paizo's stuff, I like how they at least try to present a world where people are all equal, but I have seen where if you don't seem to flow with the specific viewpoint, you get FAR less slack than those who tow the Paizo line.
IN a way I think it's like that professor you have in college (Note: Not all professors are this way, but there are some) which gives someone who can parrot what they say in lecture an A, but will flunk someone who might not basically regurgitate the lecture word for word on an essay a lesser grade.
That said, I still support Paizo's ideal world of equality, and it would be great to have a world like that (well, without all the BBEG wandering around it) here, but they do seem to be uneven handed on how they're tolerances at times.
I also see this in regards playstyles. I remember one of my first posts which was locked pretty quick...and I can see how it might start a flame war and why it was locked. Ironically, several threads from the exact playstyle I was not fond of popped up that same day in basically the same style of my thread. IN fact, multiple ones, and of course they had "heated" debates to a degree. The difference....their threads were not locked, despite the debate being FAR hotter in those threads then the one they did lock.
That said...
IT IS THEIR board, and they can do what they want on their own private property. OUR choice isn't to dictate to Paizo what they do on their own property, but to figure out how each of us deal with the various issues on our own.
Paizo DOES have a lot more tolerance than many other boards. Even if there are the things I noted above, they are STILL better in their tolerance than what I've seen in many other places and boards. Try discussing some of the things that pop up here in some of those, and not only will all the threads be locked, everyone in those threads will be permabanned. In other places, try discussing certain tolerances and you'll hit discrimination far worse than anything Paizo would even come close to allowing here. Anything seen here would be seen as negligible compared to the discrimination one would meet there.
Of course, with playstyle, certain boards seem more tolerant of my playstyle than what is seen here, but obviously Paizo has something on their boards which gives some freedom here which is not seen there. Perhaps that's more of the tolerance issue on other subjects. Much as I say that at times it feels forced, there is still far more freedom on these boards to express oneself in regards to race, sex, religion, political beliefs, and other topics than found in many other places.
TLDR;
Paizo does seem uneven in it's moderation of tricky subjects, which I've experienced myself on a personal level. That said, I appreciate their attempt to be even handed, and because they try, I find there is far more tolerance in many areas on these boards, then other RPG boards.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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To a certain extent, aren't private entities supposed to engage in viewpoint discrimination? I don't expect Christian churches to explain why the Taoists really did get things right or vice-versa. Nor do I expect NARAL to present abortion horror stories. I don't expect Libertarians to support big government programs.
I think we need people who advocate for a position and do so rigorously. What we should expect is charitable modes of argument, being hard on problems and soft on people, basic honesty, etc.
Paizo has been very open on the point of view it as advances. They tolerate other views and seem honest about what they are up to. That's pretty much all you should ask for. Not every forum need to be open to every view.
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The really important question is, if you're going to rage quit over inclusion and throw away all of your books, can I have them? I'll pay shipping ;)
Also, if you think that D&D is "safe"...
(they used some problematic language, but it's better than nothing, I guess...)
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Chief Technical Officer
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All I'll say to that is that while one person may think we don't go far enough in a particular direction, I guarantee you there are going to be others who think we go too far in whatever that direction is, and very likely can use the *exact* same point as the first person in evidence of their point.
As for inconsistency, well, we are not a hive mind. We are dozens of individuals, and we don't all perceive or react to things the same way. (And I'm okay with that, because working in a place where everybody thinks the same is creepy.)
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Took me a moment to find the thread, I assume it was locked before anyone else posted to it. Seems to me that the op's post was an expression of their own opinion, but stated in a way to either incite a version war, or a hate war, both of which aren't really productive discussion. I think the lock post was respectful of the OP while appreciating the consequence of the thread wasn't going to end well.
To the topic of discrimination, I need to refer a little to the locked thread for my post, so hopefully I don't cross a moderation line. One of the OPs thoughts had been about the game being his place of escape. I think one of the elements of Pathfinder, and D&D 3.5, and 4. Is that in their time, they have each tackled these issues by making them non-issues in their fantasy world. With a few exceptions the official campaigns have always been humanist, that is people are equal, regardless of gender or race (in the conventional human notion of race, not fantasy races, in fact inter-fantasy race racism exists, all though usually under the guise of ancient rivalry, and genocide is acceptable within that context, but I digress.) So in the early days it was gender and race politics, and currently it is sexuality, and gender identity. Again Pathfinder, and from the sounds of it, 5e, are taking a similar approach, making these issues canonically non-issues in pathfinder. In the campaign setting people just accept the way people are with respect to those character facets. So in many ways it is an idealized view of human tolerance. So in some respects it says to Pathfinder's customers we are accepting of all ways, but on the other hand, we live in a messy world, and this is an easy way to avoid getting dragged down into it. If Paizo were to construct an analogue to the on going debate within our society, it could be construed by either side as taking a side, so this allows a side step, allows the game to be inclusive by asking people to set aside their real world views when they step into this shared fantasy. So it isn't really being discriminatory to one view or the other, it is really conflict avoidance, and moderating these boards to avoid that same conflict is a similar strategy. Nobody is going to come out of a thread the degenerates into both sides lobbing hate speech and be happy, it isn't conducive to our community. There are ways of discussing the matters politely, but not when the thread starts off with such a strong statement.
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I think a post of mine pointing out the out and out sexist way Council of Thieves was written in some parts, and how it was offensive, actually got a response to the effect of..."so what?" That's how you should expect to be treated type treatment. Not so happy on my part.
I see posts asking about the iconics and talking about girls, but heaven help you if you bring up a post concerning what WOMEN like to see in men. I did, and I got it locked because some guys obviously found it sexually harassing...but on the otherhand, as the Council of Theives thread showed...there is harassment on these boards against women all the time as well that is much more accepted and tolerated.
When this happens, flag the post. Get your friends to flag it. If nothing is done, send a message to the moderators.
Sexism against women is still "OK" in regular society, so a lot of people will let it slide here. As a community, we need to make sure that this kind of behavior isn't tolerated. At all.
No company is going to balance forum moderation perfectly. We expect both the freedom to express our opinions and protection from those that would try to bring about harm. You can't have it both ways.
The thread about leaving because of an iconic being transgendered would have quickly devolved. Hopefully we as a society will one day resist the biological instinct to form into tribes, and lash out against those that don't fit into those tribes. We are not there yet.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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As said above, Viewpoint discrimination is fine for private companies/organizations.
My 'issue' with the Transconic is the fanfair. Really, my real reaction is 'ah, so that's the trans iconic. *shrug*' If it was an issue at my tables I'd edit it out.*
Part of my semi-sarcastic pointing out of there not being a left handed iconic (seriously, we're 10% of the population!) is that being 'diverse' always runs into limits. Paizo expends the effort (in art orders, writing etc.) to make 'diverse' iconics of colour gender and sexuality. Paizo also puts a limit on how many resources they wish to put into making their iconics and their products truly diverse. Thus no left handed iconic because the expense of layout and ordering art is too much for them to justify making 10% of the population feel included.**
Aside the second, the Yeth Hound's 'Sinister Bite' needs to be renamed. That attack is using an offensive word.
There is nothing stopping someone from putting "PATHFINDR SUX ROX BECAUSE OF THEIR QUEERTY ICONICS" on a Facebook post, or a blog post, or putting it in the paper (well except those sites policies as well). If someone wants to put the same thing on the boards, then they can deal with the consequences of their actions.
Also, remember tolerance works both ways though. If a person gets enraged that their choices are considered 'wrong' by someone, then take a deep breath before attacking them for being 'wrong'. Else you're guilty of the same thing you're accusing the other of.***
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There is no handedness...so none of the iconics are right handed either...I feel excluded ;(
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There is no handedness...so none of the iconics are right handed either...I feel excluded ;(
This is true. Paizo had said repeatedly that they don't attribute a handedness to any iconics because they do often have to flip art to make it fit the layouts. Therefore, it's not uncommon to see one picture of an iconic being portrayed as left-handed and that same iconic later being portrayed as right-handed. The art team needs that freedom.
Also, I'm not sure that handedness is that comparable to the actual societal issues being addressed here (said another lefty).
EDIT: reread and think the handedness thing was a joke. So feel free to ignore me!
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Part of my semi-sarcastic pointing out of there not being a left handed iconic (seriously, we're 10% of the population!) is that being 'diverse' always runs into limits. Paizo expends the effort (in art orders, writing etc.) to make 'diverse' iconics of colour gender and sexuality. Paizo also puts a limit on how many resources they wish to put into making their iconics and their products truly diverse. Thus no left handed iconic because the expense of layout and ordering art is too much for them to justify making 10% of the population feel included.**
Actually, you should take a look at this post, where Erik Mona responds to a complaint about the upcoming Seelah mini being left-handed.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Actually, you should take a look at this post, where Erik Mona responds to a complaint about the upcoming Seelah mini being left-handed.Part of my semi-sarcastic pointing out of there not being a left handed iconic (seriously, we're 10% of the population!) is that being 'diverse' always runs into limits. Paizo expends the effort (in art orders, writing etc.) to make 'diverse' iconics of colour gender and sexuality. Paizo also puts a limit on how many resources they wish to put into making their iconics and their products truly diverse. Thus no left handed iconic because the expense of layout and ordering art is too much for them to justify making 10% of the population feel included.**
Cintra, that's the point I'm trying to make. Paizo doesn't *need* to make Seelah dark skinned, Kyra bi/gay (per the comics) or any female iconics at all. They *choose* to. Which means they spend the tine and effort to take those steps. I'm not complaining about it.
Erik's post confirms what I've said, they choose not to check the 'diversity box' of making a left handed iconic to represent lefties, because they feel the effort isn't worth it.
understanding that, some people might not feel it is worth the effort to make a Transconic, or a female iconic. You can disagree with them, but understand they feel they have a valid viewpoint.
(Aside, actually the minis are a perfect example. the first iconic Valeros mini was 'flipped' from the art, resulting in the longsword in his left hand. new Valeros matches the art, and as a result the minis don't match. I noticed it, but didn't think it worth commenting on. i chuckled and moved on.)
(Second aside, Mikaze noted that all the pictures of Aroden show him left handed. I joked that it meant the left handed iconic was a god)
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Guys, accusations of trolling and similar comments can very much isolate others in our community. I will say that we do strive to be as consistent as we're able in terms of moderation, and the best way to let us know that we've made a mistake (if you think we've made one), is to utilize our Website Feedback forum or shoot us an email. Also, let's try to keep this from derailing into discussions which already have threads available in other forums. Thanks!
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I understand that paizo is proud of it's transgenered iconic, i game with a transgenered person, that being said, i don't think it's cool to supress those who disagree.
As I've stated in the past, I have my own personal issues with Paizo using Pathfinder to forward their socially progressive agenda... but having said that, they are a private company and participation or patronization of their product is wholly voluntary. No supporters have any 'rights' to speak of in that context apart from the right to remove themselves from any or all aspects they find objectionable. This could be something as minor as simply ignoring whatever you find disagreeable to something as major as deciding to take your business elsewhere. That is your right, it is the only right you have, and it is the only right you need.
Now having said that, I wish the same philosophy was applied universally, whether we were discussing a private company not being allowed to set their own criteria for hiring and firing, private companies not being allowed to set their own criteria for compensation and private companies being attacked for maintaining their own religious beliefs or social morays. Employment is voluntary. That's all the right you need in a free society - if you're discriminated against by one company then another who is more forward-thinking will no doubt benefit from your skills and dedication and in time reach greater heights because of it.
(Second aside, Mikaze noted that all the pictures of Aroden show him left handed. I joked that it meant the left handed iconic was a god)
Well, only left-handed people are in their right-mind...
(Second aside, Mikaze noted that all the pictures of Aroden show him left handed. I joked that it meant the left handed iconic was a god)Well, only left-handed people are in their Correct*-mind...
* left obviously
There fixed that for ya!
I may well have just tanked my sense motive, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut...
So... altered without fixing, per se?
:)