How does Underhanded (rogue talent) work?


Rules Questions


3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Or rather, how is it ever usable? If you have a concealed weapon, then either a) you draw it as a standard action in the surprise round, which is the extent of what you can do in the surprise round or b) you have quick draw and draw it as a move action in the surprise round, which is still the extent of what you can do in the surprise round. (Excluding taking the bandit archetype or something similar.)

So how can you ever sneak attack with it?


I don't get it either.


Have we hit a new all time low for rogue talents?

Have they reached the point where it is literally impossible to use them?


If the rogue had Quick Draw it would work out.


Dunno... I think this might need some kind of errata or the like... I mean the big part of the talent is litterally unusable.


uhm, let's see here:

Underhanded (Ex)

Benefit: A rogue with this talent gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a weapon. Furthermore, if she makes a sneak attack during the surprise round using a concealed weapon that her opponent didn’t know about, she does not have to roll sneak attack damage, and the sneak attack deals maximum damage. A rogue can only use the underhanded talent a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 0).

so, you get +4 to soh to conceal waepons. thats pretty straight forward.
the other bit ...

-From what I can read it seems like the intent of the talent is to let the rogue do max sneak attack damage when he pulls a knife on an unsuspecting opponent.

so imagine bob and george are standing around talking about trade routes while bobs bodyguard goes to get some wine for them. then between one comment about grain prices and the next moment. suddenly bob looks down to see that there is the hilt of dagger in his chest, and that george is holding it.
george wipes the blood of his poisoned dagger, now he only have to kill the bodyguard that made the mistake of seeing his face ...

Does that seems clearer?

-LO

edit: I think there might be some raw vs rai -difficulties here. I didn't even know you only had a standard action to use in a suprise round.

edit, the edit strikes back:

this part of the rules seems relevant:
"If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move."

and I'm guessing that all rogues hava a bab of at least +1 before they can pick their first talent?


LuxuriantOak wrote:

uhm, let's see here:

Underhanded (Ex)

Benefit: A rogue with this talent gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a weapon. Furthermore, if she makes a sneak attack during the surprise round using a concealed weapon that her opponent didn’t know about, she does not have to roll sneak attack damage, and the sneak attack deals maximum damage. A rogue can only use the underhanded talent a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 0).

so, you get +4 to soh to conceal waepons. thats pretty straight forward.
the other bit ...

-From what I can read it seems like the intent of the talent is to let the rogue do max sneak attack damage when he pulls a knife on an unsuspecting opponent.

so imagine bob and george are standing around talking about trade routes while bobs bodyguard goes to get some wine for them. then between one comment about grain prices and the next moment. suddenly bob looks down to see that there is the hilt of dagger in his chest, and that george is holding it.
george wipes the blood of his poisoned dagger, now he only have to kill the bodyguard that made the mistake of seeing his face ...

Does that seems clearer?

-LO

edit: I think there might be some raw vs rai -difficulties here. I didn't even know you only had a standard action to use in a suprise round.

Yeah... The RAW states that you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action. With the quick draw feat that gets reduced to a move action... The talent require that you draw the concealed weapon and attack a target on the surprise round... Doesn't really seem possible considering amount actions available.

Sovereign Court

The intent of the feat is pretty straightforward. The RAW practice is rather complicated. Concealed weapon has a pretty precise definition, and there seems to be no way to accelerate drawing them to less than a move action.

There's lots of ways to hide a weapon, but the talent specifically wants concealed weapons, which is problematic.


"The Surprise Round

If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs."

The only thing I could think of is if someone took the Deft Palm talent, which itself is somewhat unclear but which could be understood to mean that the weapon concealed with Deft Palm is not concealed for the purposes of drawing it.

And drawing a weapon as part of a regular move is as part of a move action. So you can walk up and draw a weapon in a single move action.


The surprise round doesn't even start until you get into combat.

Sneaky McStabby has the Underhanded rogue talent. He is in the tavern with his mark, Mark. He has his dagger tucked in his cloak. When Mark turns to watch the plump barmaid saunter away, Sneaky withdraws the dagger, and decides to strike.

Roll Initiative:
Option A: Sneaky McStabby wins the initiative contest, and gets to make his strike before Mark notices. He hits, does normal weapon damage, plus maximized sneak attack damage against the flat footed Mark (Mark did not previously know about the concealed dagger).

Option B: Mark wins initiative and notices Sneaky pull the dagger and strike. He tries to get away, and Sneaky gets and AoO to strike the fleeing Mark (as he tries to leave Sneaky's threatened space). Sneaky hits, and does normal weapon damage, but no sneak attack damage (as Mark is not flat footed)

Option C: Mark wins initiative and decides to strike first. He lunges hurls his heavy mug at Sneaky, hitting him in the face. Sneaky, then, on his turn, stabs at Mark, hitting for normal weapon damage (no sneak attack, as Mark is not flat footed).


hmm, reading the suprise rules and crazifuzzy's explanation I would forward the following alternative:

as before, sneaky and mark are in the tavern. sneaky has a hidden dagger. when mark looks at the barmaid, sneaky gets ready for the kill.

mark rolls his perception, sneaky rolls his sleight of hand (with his +4).

a: if mark wins the contest, roll initiative, both opponents are aware of the combat.

a1:if sneaky wins initiative, he gets to do normal sneak attack (mark is flat footed, he saw suspicious movment, but wasn't fast enough). if mark survives that, he gets his turn, combat proceeds as normal.
(a bar room brawl, the city watch is called, all goes to hell, cthulu rises)

a2: if mark wins initiative, crazifuzzys option C is viable.
(bar brawl, city watch , hell, cthulu)

b: if sneaky wins the contest, he draws a weapon as a free action, and then uses his standard action to ventilate mark. if mark survies the iron poisoning initiative is rolled and whoever wins goes first (this could lead to sneaky getting of 2 attacks before mark can act, but only the first is max snaek attack damage, the second one is just normal sneak attack.)

do you gents(?) agree?

-LO

Shadow Lodge

My biggest problem with the Underhanded talent is that for some reason a talent built around slight of hand, concealment, and essentially quick strikes is somehow dictated by my Charisma.


CraziFuzzy wrote:

The surprise round doesn't even start until you get into combat.

Surely withdrawing the dagger would count as getting into combat?

Also inyour example, since both Mark the mark and Sneaky the rogue were acting in the first round combat (assuming that random people in the pub weren't immediately going to jump into the initiative) would there not have been no surprise round at all?


Llyarden wrote:
CraziFuzzy wrote:

The surprise round doesn't even start until you get into combat.

Surely withdrawing the dagger would count as getting into combat?

Sneaky draws his dagger as part of the same round he attacks.

(as a free action and then attacks with a standard action)
before sneaky makes his attack, he isn't holding or brandishing any weapon.

-LO


1 person marked this as a favorite.
LuxuriantOak wrote:
Llyarden wrote:
CraziFuzzy wrote:

The surprise round doesn't even start until you get into combat.

Surely withdrawing the dagger would count as getting into combat?

Sneaky draws his dagger as part of the same round he attacks.

(as a free action and then attacks with a standard action)
before sneaky makes his attack, he isn't holding or brandishing any weapon.

-LO

The talent clearly states that he has to do the attack in the surprise round. Sneaky McRogue needs to both draw his weapon AND attack in a surprise round... But a surprise round has a standard action only... And drawing a concealed weapon is a move action (if you have quick draw, otherwise it is a standard action)... I'm pretty sure that the writer of this talent screwed up.


Lifat wrote:
LuxuriantOak wrote:
Llyarden wrote:
CraziFuzzy wrote:

The surprise round doesn't even start until you get into combat.

Surely withdrawing the dagger would count as getting into combat?

Sneaky draws his dagger as part of the same round he attacks.

(as a free action and then attacks with a standard action)
before sneaky makes his attack, he isn't holding or brandishing any weapon.

-LO

The talent clearly states that he has to do the attack in the surprise round. Sneaky McRogue needs to both draw his weapon AND attack in a surprise round... But a surprise round has a standard action only... And drawing a concealed weapon is a move action (if you have quick draw, otherwise it is a standard action)... I'm pretty sure that the writer of this talent screwed up.

And I am still claiming that a character with a base attack bonus of +1 or more can draw a weapon as a free action as part of another move.

-LO


doc the grey wrote:
My biggest problem with the Underhanded talent is that for some reason a talent built around slight of hand, concealment, and essentially quick strikes is somehow dictated by my Charisma.

b-but martials can go all day, right!?


LuxuriantOak wrote:
Lifat wrote:
LuxuriantOak wrote:
Llyarden wrote:
CraziFuzzy wrote:

The surprise round doesn't even start until you get into combat.

Surely withdrawing the dagger would count as getting into combat?

Sneaky draws his dagger as part of the same round he attacks.

(as a free action and then attacks with a standard action)
before sneaky makes his attack, he isn't holding or brandishing any weapon.

-LO

The talent clearly states that he has to do the attack in the surprise round. Sneaky McRogue needs to both draw his weapon AND attack in a surprise round... But a surprise round has a standard action only... And drawing a concealed weapon is a move action (if you have quick draw, otherwise it is a standard action)... I'm pretty sure that the writer of this talent screwed up.

And I am still claiming that a character with a base attack bonus of +1 or more can draw a weapon as a free action as part of another move.

-LO

As part of a move action. If you use your move action, you cannot attack in the surprise round.


LuxuriantOak wrote:
Lifat wrote:
LuxuriantOak wrote:
Llyarden wrote:
CraziFuzzy wrote:

The surprise round doesn't even start until you get into combat.

Surely withdrawing the dagger would count as getting into combat?

Sneaky draws his dagger as part of the same round he attacks.

(as a free action and then attacks with a standard action)
before sneaky makes his attack, he isn't holding or brandishing any weapon.

-LO

The talent clearly states that he has to do the attack in the surprise round. Sneaky McRogue needs to both draw his weapon AND attack in a surprise round... But a surprise round has a standard action only... And drawing a concealed weapon is a move action (if you have quick draw, otherwise it is a standard action)... I'm pretty sure that the writer of this talent screwed up.

And I am still claiming that a character with a base attack bonus of +1 or more can draw a weapon as a free action as part of another move.

-LO

If you draw your weapon it is not concealed.

Therefore you must draw your weapon in the surprise round to receive the benefit from underhanded.

This means that you either spend a standard to draw your dagger in the surprise round, or a move with quick draw, or move up to your target and draw your concealed weapon if you have BaB +1 or greater. All of these consume your action economy for the surprise round.

Surprise Round Rules Link

You cannot both have a weapon drawn and have it concealed.

For reference here is how to conceal a weapon, unless the weapon has a special rule itself.

Concealing Weapons:

PRD wrote:

Sleight of Hand

(Dex; Armor Check Penalty; Trained Only)
Your training allows you to pick pockets, draw hidden weapons, and take a variety of actions without being noticed.

Check: A DC 10 Sleight of Hand check lets you palm a coin-sized, unattended object. Performing a minor feat of legerdemain, such as making a coin disappear, also has a DC of 10 unless an observer is determined to note where the item went.

When you use this skill under close observation, your skill check is opposed by the observer's Perception check. The observer's success doesn't prevent you from performing the action, just from doing it unnoticed.

You can hide a small object (including a light weapon or an easily concealed ranged weapon, such as a dart, sling, or hand crossbow) on your body. Your Sleight of Hand check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone observing you or of anyone frisking you. In the latter case, the searcher gains a +4 bonus on the Perception check, since it's generally easier to find such an object than to hide it. A dagger is easier to hide than most light weapons, and grants you a +2 bonus on your Sleight of Hand check to conceal it. An extraordinarily small object, such as a coin, shuriken, or ring, grants you a +4 bonus on your Sleight of Hand check to conceal it, and heavy or baggy clothing (such as a cloak) grants you a +2 bonus on the check.

Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.

If you try to take something from a creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check. The opponent makes a Perception check to detect the attempt, opposed by the Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item. You cannot use this skill to take an object from another creature during combat if the creature is aware of your presence.

You can also use Sleight of Hand to entertain an audience as though you were using the Perform skill. In such a case, your “act” encompasses elements of legerdemain, juggling, and the like.

Sleight of Hand DC Task
10 Palm a coin-sized object, make a coin disappear
20 Lift a small object from a person
Action: Any Sleight of Hand check is normally a standard action. However, you may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a move action by taking a –20 penalty on the check.

Try Again: Yes, but after an initial failure, a second Sleight of Hand attempt against the same target (or while you are being watched by the same observer who noticed your previous attempt) increases the DC for the task by 10.

Untrained: An untrained Sleight of Hand check is simply a Dexterity check. Without actual training, you can't succeed on any Sleight of Hand check with a DC higher than 10, except for hiding an object on your body.

Special: If you have the Deft Hands feat, you get a bonus on Sleight of Hand checks (see Feats).

Link

This talent does not work. Thematically I see what the writer was doing, but either the writer or some editor involved did not understand the concealed weapon rules and so mechanically RAW it fails.

It is similar to Powerful Sneak in that it looks good on the surface, but when you examine the underlying math and rules it is a trap.

There are a few talents like this.


The correct answer is charging as a standard action (instead of a full round action) in the surprise round as is normally allowed (albeit at normal movement speed instead of double).

So, you have the weapon concealed. You charge at your enemy (also drawing your weapon as part of the move) and stab him at the end of the charge. This will require you have at least +1 BAB.

Edit: rereading, you will also need Quick Draw.

Charge wrote:
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.

So for the price of Quick Draw and the Talent you have a very specific method of attack, but it does work.


Claxon wrote:

The correct answer is charging as a standard action (instead of a full round action) in the surprise round as is normally allowed (albeit at normal movement speed instead of double).

So, you have the weapon concealed. You charge at your enemy (also drawing your weapon as part of the move) and stab him at the end of the charge. This will require you have at least +1 BAB.

Edit: rereading, you will also need Quick Draw.

Charge wrote:
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
So for the price of Quick Draw and the Talent you have a very specific method of attack, but it does work.

Fair. You found a single way to use this, but considering the requirements it still seems like the author screwed up.


I think that is specifically why the feat states 'a concealed weapon that her opponent didn't know about'. To state that even though the weapon, obviously, has to be drawn to be used, as long as the target doesn't know about it yet, the rogue can employ it to full effectiveness. I think they are implying the weapon is still considered 'concealed' until the target actually knows about it. The idea being that at a party, for instance, where weapons are not allowed, one does not have the guard up for such things - until someone yells 'gun!'.

Yes, its poorly worded, and could certainly use an errata to fix it up, but i don't think it is 'unusable' at a reasonable table.


Lifat wrote:
Claxon wrote:

The correct answer is charging as a standard action (instead of a full round action) in the surprise round as is normally allowed (albeit at normal movement speed instead of double).

So, you have the weapon concealed. You charge at your enemy (also drawing your weapon as part of the move) and stab him at the end of the charge. This will require you have at least +1 BAB.

Edit: rereading, you will also need Quick Draw.

Charge wrote:
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
So for the price of Quick Draw and the Talent you have a very specific method of attack, but it does work.
Fair. You found a single way to use this, but considering the requirements it still seems like the author screwed up.

I agree it's convoluted and probably could use a rewrite (just like everything else rogue related), but I'm searching for the polish to put on the turd.


Claxon wrote:

The correct answer is charging as a standard action (instead of a full round action) in the surprise round as is normally allowed (albeit at normal movement speed instead of double).

So, you have the weapon concealed. You charge at your enemy (also drawing your weapon as part of the move) and stab him at the end of the charge. This will require you have at least +1 BAB.

Edit: rereading, you will also need Quick Draw.

Charge wrote:
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
So for the price of Quick Draw and the Talent you have a very specific method of attack, but it does work.

Yep, a charge would work!

Good catch. So worse than talents like combat trick or minor magic, but better than Hold Breath or Powerful Sneak.

I still would not take this however, but good catch none the less.

Edit: I do not think you need quick draw for this.

PRD wrote:

Charge

Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.

Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.


Some ways you can use it.

1. Standing next to the target or charging with an invisible weapon ready.
2. Standing next to the target or charging out stealth or invisible with a weapon ready.
3. Standing next to the target or charging after using a spring-loaded wrist sheath. (Debatable, but I would allow it.)
4. Standing next to the target or charging after casting the summon weapon spell. (Debatable, but I would allow it.)
5. Take the Bandit archetype to level 4.

If you are undetected, so is your drawn weapon.


Spring loaded wrist sheath lets you pull the concealed weapon in it as a swift action. I think thats the primary way to get the underhanded benefit.


You can't use a swift action in the surprise round.

Sovereign Court

You can draw a sheathed weapon as part of a charge, but I don't think you can do that with a concealed weapon. The section of the combat rules that allows you to draw weapons during movement is talking about normally sheathed weapons - the sort that would take a Move to draw normally, and that Quickdraw reduces to Free.

But concealed weapons take a Standard to draw - Move with Quickdraw. It happens to take the same amount of action, but it's not actually the same action.

Also, if you take the "Standard Charge" in a surprise round, you're not allowed to draw weapons unless you also have Quickdraw (in which case the charge doesn't have anything to do with it anymore). What the Draw-During-Charge does is reduce the Charge distance by 1x your speed so that you can draw a weapon. Basically you're spending a Move action to draw and then making a Standard Charge. It makes sense that you can't do that if you only had a Standard Charge to begin with.

Also, it'd be odd if you could use Underhanded in the surprise round only if you moved 10ft towards your target, not if you were already standing next to him.

---

It does look like Deft Palm works, because you can treat the weapon as Concealed even if it's right there in your hand.

Deft Palm wrote:
Deft Palm (Ex): A rogue with this talent can make a Sleight of Hand check to conceal a weapon while holding it in plain sight, even while she is being observed.

That talent is in the same book, same chapter as Underhanded, so the author didn't completely mess up. It's pretty much the only way to use Underhanded that's unambiguous per RAW.

---

Other ideas I've though of/heard about: a Glove of Storing will let you produce a hidden - but not Concealed(tm) - weapon as a free action.

Unarmed strikes probably don't work - the opponent knows your fists exist. But a touch spell or SLA could count, if the enemy didn't know you were a spellcaster. I recommend the level 1 bloodline power of the Shadow bloodline, which does subdual damage as a touch SLA. (SLAs have no spell components, therefore more discreet than spellcasting. Also, the requirements for Eldritch Heritage are quite bearable for rogues: just take Skill Focus-Stealth.)

---

It's unclear wether you can take Swift Actions during the surprise round. On the one hand the definition for surprise round says you take only a Move or Standard. On the other hand, the "Restricted Activity" section among actions says:

Quote:
Restricted Activity: In some situations, you may be unable to take a full round's worth of actions. In such cases, you are restricted to taking only a single standard action or a single move action (plus free and swift actions as normal). You can't take a full-round action (though you can start or complete a full-round action by using a standard action; see below).

That description seems to fit a surprise round pretty well. Given that swift actions are known to be "smaller" than standard and move actions, it'd be hard to explain why you couldn't use them during the surprise round. And any argument why you can't do Swift in the surprise round would also apply to Free actions, with the result that drawing weapons, shouting at people to take cover or surrender and so forth also becomes impossible. Which I find hard to believe is really the correct interpretation of the rules.

So, as a result, a spring-loaded wrist sheath might work. It doesn't say explicitly that items in them are Concealed(tm), but since you get a bonus to Sleight of Hand to prevent people from noticing them, I'd say that's the RAI.

---

TL;DR: one way that works unambiguously (Deft Palm), one that's almost certain to be correct (spring-loaded wrist sheath), and two that should work by common sense though not entirely by RAW (glove of storing, touch spells/SLAs).


Quote:

Ambush (Ex)

At 4th level, a bandit becomes fully practiced in the art of ambushing. When she acts in the surprise round, she can take a move action, standard action, and swift action during the surprise round, not just a move or standard action.

This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

The writing on that implies that you can't take a swift action.


Llyarden wrote:
Quote:

Ambush (Ex)

At 4th level, a bandit becomes fully practiced in the art of ambushing. When she acts in the surprise round, she can take a move action, standard action, and swift action during the surprise round, not just a move or standard action.

This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

The writing on that implies that you can't take a swift action.

Excuse you?

"she can take a move action, standard action, and swift action during the surprise round"


I meant that the writing implies you can't take a swift action without this class feature.


Llyarden wrote:
I meant that the writing implies you can't take a swift action without this class feature.

Ah, sorry sorry. I agree.

Sovereign Court

It does imply that, but (trying to mean no disrespect) I'm not sure if rogue archetypes are the best place to discover the nuances of the rules. A lot of archetypes are written by freelancers and contain smaller or greater errors.


Man, did you see the other Bandit class feature?

Fearsome Strike (Ex) wrote:
At 8th level, a bandit can terrify an opponent with a single hit. A number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1), when a bandit confirms a critical hit and deals sneak attack damage to an opponent, she can choose to make the opponent frightened...

Does he stop being scary after a few crits? Why would an Ex ability have a use limit? Why would it have a limit at all if it requires confirming crits?

Sovereign Court

If it was X times per encounter it might make some sense, as after a while you're not surprised at yet another critical. But it really doesn't make that much sense if spread across multiple encounters.

The Exchange

I always take this trait with my rogue.

Veteran of Battle (Gorum): You have fought in several battles, and each time felt the presence of Gorum guiding your sword-arm, making you ready to act at a moment's notice. You gain a +1 trait bonus on initiative checks, and if you are able to act during a surprise round, you may draw a weapon (but not a potion or magic item) as a free action during that round.


As Ascalphus noted, I believe it is something that has to work in conjunction with Deft Palm in most situations. There are other ways for it to function, but it probably takes more to do it.

Not a bad combination for a Knife Master Rogue. Probably not very effective for other builds.

Sovereign Court

I'm not sure if the Veteran of Battle trait is meant to work with concealed weapons. I think it was meant to work with normal weapons, not with the longer-time-to-draw concealed weapons.

(Also, are you sure that a true follower of Gorum would really conceal weapons? :P)


OK, everyone is in agreement that as written, it can't work. But it had to have been meant to work, so RAI has to allow the draw and stab to be a single action. So I go with Luxuriant Oak's scenario.


Llyarden wrote:
I meant that the writing implies you can't take a swift action without this class feature.

The wording does not at all imply that. It says that you can take a move, standard, and swift action in a surprise round, whereas normally you couldn't take a move, standard, and swift action in a surprise round. That does not imply that you cannot normally take a swift and a move action, or a swift and a standard action, in a surprise round.

The combat chapter says:

Combat wrote:
You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action.

You certainly can use one in a surprise round.

So, the options to use this talent include being at least a 4th level rogue with the Bandit archetype or having a spring-loaded wrist sheath with a dagger in it. I'm not sure about charging in the surprise round, though, it's not clear to me whether you can draw a concealed weapon as part of a charge.

The Exchange

Guys, I don't know if anyone mentioned this before me.. But Adventurer's Armory page 9. Wrist Sheathe, Spring Loaded. Let's you "draw" a concealed 1 pound weapon (dagger) as an Immediate action.


How about a tube arrow shooter?

Ultimate Equipment wrote:
tube arrow shooter:This weapon consists of a small metal tube hidden within a sleeve; the tube holds a short, spring-loaded bamboo shaft. You gain a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a tube arrow shooter on your body. Releasing the fastener allows the spring to force the arrow out. Once a shaft is fired, the tube must be reloaded before it can be used again. Reloading a tube is a full-round action, or a standard action if the wielder has the Rapid Reload feat.

a) the weapon is naturally concealed (clearly a rogue has one arm with a cold iron spiked gauntlet lashed to it, and the other has a long sleeve tied to your shoulder)

b) you can fire it as a regular attack without having to draw it
c) as a downside, this doesn't work so good for a knife master, and you still need a high Cha to get this to work (nor can you spend ki or panache or anything else to recharge your uses).

I'd take this and shoot ghosts in the eye with it, but my rogue has a Cha of 8, and you need at least a 12.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / How does Underhanded (rogue talent) work? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.