Goblin Squad Member
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So I have found that Taur-im-Duinath is not the only settlement with a pledge to protect nature but is in line on the matter with two other companies: The Viridian Circle and The Vigilant. Maybe others have the same aim, companies or individuals, do not hesitate to manifest yourself here and provide your input.
This thread is specifically for you if your aim is not just to be the "defenders of nature" because you love frolicking in the forest RP-style but want to weight in on the evolution of the game as intended by GW. To quote a certain Goblin: Nature defilers will be our content and we will be their content.
What I mean here is that we, "Defender of Nature" will actively Feud against those who "Defile Nature": We will attempt to raze their outposts or PoI, it's that simple.
However, Nature PvP-ing need to be meaningful and understood by the community, it is not an excuse to raid the outposts with the best risk/benefit ratio like any bandit would. Companies need to know that they have nothing to fear from the Druids and their allies as long as they are not defiling nature, and conversely prepare for the worst if they are.
The problem with "Defiling Nature" is that there are no explicit mechanisms implemented in the game like "Evil" or "Criminal", etc. There are no PvP flags related to "Nature Defiling", although this concept is central to the Ethos of Druids, Rangers and Elves (and probably some Gnomes an Hobbits latter-on).
In this thread I would like to start working on some Rules of Engagement triggering the "Nature Defiler" meta-game flag and hopefully obtain an agreement among all the groups motivated in "Defense of Nature PvP" to follow these rules (and very likely join their efforts to eradicate said target).
This will be a work in progress until the start of the EE, given that the more feedback we have from GW, the more we will be able to adjust these rules to have meaning. Outpost types and outpost upgrades are very likely huge variables here.
Here are some of the rules I envision
1) Alignment do not matter: "Nature Defilers" good or evil, chaotic or lawful will be subject to the same wrath of the protectors of Nature.
2) Size matter: A more developed Outpost/PoI flagged "Defiler" is more likely to be targetted than a small, underdeveloped one.
3) Mining in Forests: All Mines outposts in Forest Hexes are flagged "Defiler"
4) Abusive Hunting: More than one Gaming Operations Outpost per Hex is flagged "Defiler"
5) Abusive Timbering: More than one Timber Mill per Hex is flagged "Defiler".
Any other ideas ? I think we could also discuss the potential organization of the Defenders of Nature, I like the concept of the Viridian Circle that would be an umbrella for all the operations.
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I'm interested in hearing more about how geographic distance from TiD will be considered. Given a limited PC resource I'm having a hard time understanding how these terms can be evenly enforced outside of nearby Hexes.
I understand Elfkind is typically very isolationist, and would rarely go "looking for a fight" far afield from home.
I would also look into "camping" a hex for a given respawning resource as a possible offense.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I heartily applaud the goal, but I don't think flagging resource gathering is an effective method of getting to what you're after--it can't just be "If someone does X we have an ing-game mechanic but a solely RP reason for conflict." SS vs. SS conflict is going to be in large part driven by resource constraints. We'll be fighting for finite resources for a reason: each side has skin in the game, because they benefit from access to resources. For "Nature aligned" settlements to be able to have meaningful SS vs. SS conflict, you'll need to have some skin in the game. Something like non-developed hexes contributing to your DI in a way that resources contribute to regular settlements.
The problem though is that the vanilla version of resources and DI (capturing a hex and putting down a POI will contribute to one of the DIs) applies to everyone, whereas what you want will apply to a very small group of settlements. I think it would be awesome, but my guess is very low on the priority list because of applicability.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am fine with another angle or RP reason for a group to raid an outpost or POI. You did mention it as a "meta construct". From my point of view: It is me (and mine) trying to do something we need to do vs. you (and yours) trying to oppose it. As long as the mechanics are the same for everyone "in-game" it is all just another day at the office.
Just expect to be resisted and if annoying enough, all that goes along with being annoying in someone else's home hexes. That is all perfectly along the lines of meaningful game play. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh hey, it's more PETA & Greenpeace imitation.
Chopping wood won't make you evil, chopping people will. That's objective reality in the game as presented, and flimsy RP excuses aren't a valid reason to change it. If you want to murder commoners, you can deal with becoming neutral evil.
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Chopping wood won't make you evil, chopping people will. That's objective reality in the game as presented, and flimsy RP excuses aren't a valid reason to change it. If you want to murder commoners, you can deal with becoming neutral evil. [/QUOTE
This touches on a point I was trying to make, and a distinction I think is important.Protecting the hexes nearby your Settlement and enforcing your own code of conduct VS Killing anyone you see using a mining pick or axe in the wilderness.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh hey, it's more PETA & Greenpeace imitation.
Chopping wood won't make you evil, chopping people will. That's objective reality in the game as presented, and flimsy RP excuses aren't a valid reason to change it. If you want to murder commoners, you can deal with becoming neutral evil.
Nature-PvP is not about Good vs Evil, and Neutral Good Druids will have a very different take on it than Neutral Evil Druids. It's purely about differences of opinions being expressed through violence (or Curses, or Drought, or a plague of Frogs, or even trade restrictions).
This is entirely about a type of tabletop RPG content being brought into the MMO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There was a time, I know not whether it is or isn't still the case, that a harvesting operation was described as more efficient if the player owning it was on-site.
My thought at that time is that any unattended resource gathering operation was arguably harming nature.
Forestry, as an example, can actually be good for the forest. Selective cutting by the conscientious woodsman makes room for new growth and actually extends the productive lifecycle of a forested region. Underbrush is kept from becoming excessive and choking.
Unattended timber harvesting is clear cutting and harmful to nature.
So my conclusion was that an unattended outpost should be dismantled and destroyed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm interested in hearing more about how geographic distance from TiD will be considered.
I understand Elfkind is typically very isolationist, and would rarely go "looking for a fight" far afield from home.
Distance to TiD will not matter, and the visible population of the settlement be plenty isolationist and non caring. However shadow ops to help the Druids is in the book of the Unquenchable Fire company chartered with TiD, but there are other ways to have Elves help the Druids undercover, a same character can be member of several companies. In short, TiD the political entity would be passive not aggressive, but certainly fuel the resources of the Druids. Which may generate interesting diplomatic issues.
Given a limited PC resource I'm having a hard time understanding how these terms can be evenly enforced outside of nearby Hexes.
My expectation on this matter is that any Hex flagged "Defiler" wherever it is once identified will be shared among the interested groups and a raid planned, no matter how far it is. According to the actual rules it takes less than one hour to raze an outpost. Also if we can pull up the thing seriously I'm pretty sure there will be Companies "denouncing" their competitors if they know they can hurt them via a proxy (aka as the "useful idiot Druid") pretty sure some cynical or clever factions would use it.
I would also look into "camping" a hex for a given respawning resource as a possible offense.
That's an interesting idea, but I think too short paced to implement in game unless said "camping" is days long.
SS vs. SS conflict is going to be in large part driven by resource constraints. We'll be fighting for finite resources for a reason: each side has skin in the game, because they benefit from access to resources.
SS ? You mean Settlements/Companies I suppose. So yes, if it happen the game is very resource-constrained we will end-up in constant warfare then the Defenders of Nature will have not much meaning. We will see how it pan out, my feeling is that Companies have an incentive to fully develop their Hexes rather than spam PoI everywhere (they won't have enough Influence). This is this Hex optimization that will likely be targeted (e.g. Wood is in demand, let's build two timber mills around our PoI). In all case we need to find the right balance: too much rules triggering the Defiler flag and we will end-up having a lame excuse to attack anyone, not enough and no-one will be considered a Defiler...
For "Nature aligned" settlements to be able to have meaningful SS vs. SS conflict, you'll need to have some skin in the game. Something like non-developed hexes contributing to your DI in a way that resources contribute to regular settlements.
This PvP game will be played by Companies, not Settlements, I should have avoided naming TiD the Settlement, rather than our very likely PvP operative: The Unquenchable Fire.
The problem though is that the vanilla version of resources and DI (capturing a hex and putting down a POI will contribute to one of the DIs) applies to everyone, whereas what you want will apply to a very small group of settlements. I think it would be awesome, but my guess is very low on the priority list because of applicability.
Yes, this kind of adaptation would be very nice but we will play without it hence these rules that will help us leverage the existing game mechanism to play this Denfender of Nature card. Still I'll be sure to keep your idea for the Nature Crowdforging Thread.
I am fine with another angle or RP reason for a group to raid an outpost or POI. You did mention it as a "meta construct". From my point of view: It is me (and mine) trying to do something we need to do vs. you (and yours) trying to oppose it. As long as the mechanics are the same for everyone "in-game" it is all just another day at the office.
You are correct, meta-game flag is not right, I should have rather said not-visible in-game flag.
Oh hey, it's more PETA & Greenpeace imitation.
Chopping wood won't make you evil, chopping people will. That's objective reality in the game as presented, and flimsy RP excuses aren't a valid reason to change it. If you want to murder commoners, you can deal with becoming neutral evil.
Whatever excuse I use is a valid excuse. And whether or not chopping trees is evil is a matter of opinion no matter what the developers say. You sound like you are trying to bring real world politics into a forum discussion about Pathfinder.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you want to conduct Company level PVP, use the regular feud system like we all will. If you want smaller level, use faction. You can't seriously expect free flagging due to the extracting of resources. It is too important to the game for everyone.
Advocate for a faction vs. faction set up similar to bandits vs. merchants.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh hey, it's more PETA & Greenpeace imitation.
I appreciate how, having acknowledged not to conflate RL politics with a fantasy game you are back 10 mn later with the same inappropriate comments in an other thread...
Chopping wood won't make you evil, chopping people will. That's objective reality in the game as presented, and flimsy RP excuses aren't a valid reason to change it. If you want to murder commoners, you can deal with becoming neutral evil.
I wonder how you can say that a specific subset of pixel is "objective reality", my Druid would say that your wood-choping killed the Dryad living in this tree, that's "his" objective reality.
Now who said we were "murdering commoner" ? The objective of the "Defender of Nature" raids is to raze structures, the only death incurred will be of those trying to prevent us to do so. Quite different than "murdering" innocent. I'm calling that "meaningful PvP". And anyway yes, most of those doing these raid would be in the TN/CN/CE alignment spectrum, with very likely a few CG (probably those who are avenging the murdered Dryads :D).And I seriously hope you'll just be honest that you're grasping at an excuse to gank people. That's fine, the game supports that as an option, but you don't get a free ticket to do it because a logging camp makes you cry.
A logging camp don't make ME cry but may infuriate my CHARACTER yes. I think you have a serious problem of adjustment probably amplified by your use of RL politics in your assessment of my proposal.
But I nevertheless thank you for this ganking accusation, it allows me to remind everyone that the purpose of these Rules of Engagement are the exact opposite of an excuse "to gank".Just admit you're bandits, murderhobos, or whatever and don't try to pass it off as anything more justified than that.
No we're not, not anymore than my Paladin would be a bandit or a murderhobo because he killed your Necromancer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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is this "defiler" flag something that's actually been mentioned by the devs, or something that you're just making up for purposes of the thread?
It's something I'm making up (for the sake of clarity and obviously I have failed).
If you want to conduct Company level PVP, use the regular feud system like we all will. If you want smaller level, use faction. You can't seriously expect free flagging due to the extracting of resources. It is too important to the game for everyone
Yes, yes, and yes. That was my intention, we would use the feud system to target an outpost/PoI that would have been identified as "Defiler"
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would not view a travel or a farm as a defiler, not even a lumber mill or a rock quarry. It really depends on what methods of harvesting is being used and how much.
In EvE is you used a survey scanner and did not mine an asteroid completely, it would re spawn back much faster. However, if you deplete it completely it takes 24 hours to recover. Many wars were caused by miners strip mining whole asteroid belts, sometimes even entire systems.
That kind of mining is exploitive and should be "punished" via raids, feuds, and possibly even wars.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Are all POI defilers?
Definitely not, the purpose of this thread would be to agree on what kind of PoI or Outposts the "Defender of Nature" would register as "defiler"
Based on my knowledge of the existing setting I proposed the following:
All Mines outposts in Forest Hexes, Gaming Operations Outpost if more than one per Hex, and logging camp / timber mill if more than one per Hex.
As you can see there are no PoI so far but we don't know yet all the kind of PoI GW will include.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd love for there to be a Gaia vs. Profiteering Exploiters set up like merchants vs. bandits.
Obviously it can't wreck the game for other players not involved in it. And it has to be able to be played out concurrently buy hundreds of people.
However it's a form of pvp beyond familiar Good vs. Evil or trader vs. stealer so that's a plus in the appeal as a game category. Lots of tabletop players might not get towns going to war with each other because it's Tuesday afternoon and they're bored, but some Lorax rp action can be just the kind of cross-over familiar and comfortable enough to bring them into a pvp MMO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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All Mines outposts in Forest HexesThis seems so broad. You're telling me you guys don't plan on using bulk wood for anything?
My understanding was the opposite. Mine as Mineral/Metal extraction in opposition to lumber/logging for wood. Normally people should not use mining outpost in Forest hexes (rather Mountains) given their low yield in metal.
We obviously can't target something broad, that would make no sense, including crippling our own development. Still I'm sure we'll find a sweet spot that has contextual meaning (a sign of over-exploitation) that not everyone can do but is still tempting for some companies to exploit.|
Goblin Squad Member
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I wasn't really even anticipating actual "mines" in forest hexes. I know there's a little ore, but I figured it'd be netted with the Bulk Wood or something. Seems like it'd be grossly inefficient to build a dedicated mine on a terrain type that isn't mountains or highlands. But I guess, this goes back to the "there's a lot we don't know yet" category. As I said to someone else recently...maybe you're right!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Friend Leafrunner,
I would like for you to step out of the office for a minute to hold a private conversation with me as a representative of the TVC to go over what should, and should not, be included in such a Greenpeacean declaration at this early juncture.
I would hazard that we have a few differing methods, and you might benefit from my knowledge and opinions. Please, pm me and we can get to discussing this at some point, and then come back with a more flushed and acceptable declaration.
At the same time I will say the DoN pact would, if existant, differ from bandits in the methodology of their raids, if not in the fact that the raids occur. I'm not asking my actions to be labelled "good" but they should, as a druid, be labelled "neutral" if the circumstances match. I have a few ideas, but I would respectfully ask all other parties to withhold the debate at this point until TVC and TiD can get back to you with a more coherent plan.
Thank you one and all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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SS ? You mean Settlements/Companies I suppose. So yes, if it happen the game is very resource-constrained we will end-up in constant warfare then the Defenders of Nature will have not much meaning. We will see how it pan out, my feeling is that Companies have an incentive to fully develop their Hexes rather than spam PoI everywhere (they won't have enough Influence). This is this Hex optimization that will likely be targeted (e.g. Wood is in demand, let's build two timber mills around our PoI). In all case we need to find the right balance: too much rules triggering the Defiler flag and we will end-up having a lame excuse to attack anyone, not enough and no-one will be considered a Defiler...
It's not really an "if"--as the devs have articulated it, the game is built around competition for resources and territory. Nature vs. civilization is a great, really ground-breaking way to add role-play to MMOs. But to work, it will need to fit into the game--it will have to in some way be about competition over resources and territory.
Which unfortunately means it will likely be very low in the development queue, because of the low ROI.
And yes, Social Structure vs. Social Structure--PvP doesn't describe the game as the devs have described it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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once upon a time, in a thread long gone the following idea was developed and still awaits some crowdforging love;)
...actually...
how about this?
Nature´s Warrior[pvp-flag]
you are a protector of nature, you roam the lands looking for strip-miners using destructive exploitation, and bring nature´s wrath upon the defilers.
To do so you get the commune with natureability which lets you scan your current hex for destructive exploitationStripminer[pvp-flag]
you are out for the fast money, while flying this flag you can use destructive exploitation.
your harvesting speed is increased by x%, but because of your reclessness you
-also loose x% of the maximum amount of ressources you could have harvested otherwise.
or
-reduce the respawn rate of that ressource within the hex.the Nature´s warrior flag emowers it´s user to hunt down stripminers only! using it to start attacking other people, even flying other pvp-flags should include consequences.
both flags open you up for pvp from other parties.
I enjoy RP, and RP reasons for actions as much as the next guy. But in this instance I think if you want to play the unequivocal defender of nature role, you'll probably have to take a hit of some sort. You're still murder hobos. Just...tree loving murder hobos.
Murder is a subjective term. I don't care who flags me for what if I think I did right, I did right. I do acknowledge that there may be some penalties for my beliefs and it could detriment my character but ce la vie.
...The Unquenchable Fire.Anyone besides me concerned about the idea of "forest" and "Unquenchable Fire" operating so near one another? :-)
The Unquenchable Fire is mainly manifest in Elven pants. When we wear skirts we are feeding the fire more oxygen. ;)
Oh hey, it's more PETA & Greenpeace imitation.
Chopping wood won't make you evil, chopping people will.
Oh? Does the wood have magic that always brings it back to life with no ill effects?
People grow back no matter what in these lands. Trees, on the other hand...
Also, Evil =/= low Rep. As such, don't bring up evil here. Of course commoner choppers will be evil, but they can still succeed in the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't see why there needs to be a mechanic. Settlements are built with the destrutction of nature, so these people should never use settlements, so they shouldn't worry about tanking their reputation, and shifting chaotic.
I'm sure it should be possible to build a settlement, without defiling the local landscape.
Just ask the Ewoks.
By harvesting in a sustainable way, the forest is able to grow back and recover. How this would be represented in-game, is still to be seen.
I believe players should be given a choice to select sustainable harvesting, or 'gotta chop 'em all!' irresponsible deforestation.
On the understanding that sustainable harvesting could result in lower yield and slower settlement growth, but faster resource replenishment than a denuded hex.
How about an option for tree-planting? Doing that could use the same mechanics as crop-growing, but on a slower scale.
Participating in this could pacify the Defenders of Nature, and reduce the risk of being flagged for a feud.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the overall idea is tension between:-
A: Settlements => Push back wilderness = Settlement's Civilization Index (albeit more Wilderness is needed the larger those become).
B: Wilderness => Push back players via Escalation Cycles, other creeping horrors ie the natural state of this part of this world is fantastical denizens that are also fantastically dangerous and the players push is always hanging on to civ development.
Somehow you'd want Druids with one foot on each side of this tug-of-war.
You could go with Druid POI stone circles/groves as animal spawners for a hex to increase?
I don't know how you'd do something similar for the flora, perhaps better yields?
Could have a spawn to create neutral mobs/monsters that can be used to attack trespassers or to trigger an escalation cycle.
Powering such stone circles/groves might require druids/groups to sacrifice players caught ie their corpses could rip out their hearts and do rituals at the stone circle.
Possibly WildShape needs fueling in a similar way: Eating other players.