Crowdforging: Settlement Buildings, Harvesting Resources & Strip-Mining


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Goblin Squad Member

I've copied the below from the main Viridian Circle thread as it probably deserves it's own thread for discusion.

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One of the stated goals of the Viridian Circle is to target settlements (and individuals) which have expanded and harvested resources in a reckless manner. So that got me thinking, how will we identify settlements, chartered companies and individuals who act in this manner?

Settlement Buildings
There should be a wealth of information that is collected that pertains to a settlement. If there was a mechanic called ‘Growth Rate’, then this could provide the ruling body of the settlement with a figure to display how rapidly a settlement is growing. This would enable them to see if they are growing in an efficient and cost effective manner. This could be a measure of the current skill level of characters assigned to various buildings, as well as the number of projects on the go (and the average skill rating of the contributors), the amount of resources being gathered and allocated to settlement projects and perhaps a measure of the amount of wastage on settlement projects.

In regards to wastage the lead on a project could choose how they want to manage a building project. For instance if a particular kind of training facility is required to be built quickly, then the lead could decide to make a reduction in the quality of the overall project and increase the amount of wastage. Both of these choices would affect the amount of raw resources required for the project, the time it would take to build the structure and the minimum required skill level to contribute to the project. These kinds of choices should also affect the on-going cost of maintenance, development index rating and the end appearance of the structure.

While it might be cheaper and quicker to build structures quickly at reduced quality. This would have an overall effect on the ambience of the overall settlement, as well as effect on-going maintenance costs. So civic pride might come into play, as well as some characters might not want to go to the ‘shabby rundown’ settlement of Brighthaven.

It should also be possible via relevant skill checks and having a look around a settlement to get a feel if a settlement is growing at a reckless manner (by viewing the growth rate and other stats) and what level of wastage has been used to construct the buildings. All of the above would not only assist the Viridian Circle in deeming who to target, but make each settlement unique and feel alive.

Settlement Resource Gathering & Strip-Mining
I’ve mentioned above that there should be a wealth of information available to community leaders of a settlement. This should include the efficiency of their resource gathering efforts. We’ve heard it mentioned that raiders will be able strip-mine resources of rival settlements. I propose that strip-mining be an option not only for raiders, but also for settlement harvesting operations as well as individual harvesters.

This make sense and allows everyone to make a meaningful choice when it comes to harvesting. Do I want to harvest this resource to maximise the quality of the material being harvested or do I want to accept a reduction in the overall quality of the resource so I can do it quickly. This kind of decision making is as applicable to a small harvesting group in the dangerous wilderness, trying to quickly mine a rare but expensive resource. To Settlements (or others) who are at war (or feuding) to quickly harvest resources so they can churn out some needed armour or weapons.

On a side note I think it would be fantastic if harvesters could harvest materials that have a higher quality rating at the expense of increasing the time taken and reducing the yield from the harvested node. For instance a Dwarven harvester who is harvesting an average quality iron deposit might decide to only take the best of the bunch of the iron ore, thus reducing his yield but in return getting good quality iron ore. At the refining phase a refiner could pay less for average quality iron ore (and get more of it) and then refine it to produce a higher quality, or buy the good quality iron ore as it saves them time. They could keep it at this level of quality or refine it to excellent quality iron ore losing some in the process.

Not only does this add another layer to harvesting (and as a consequence refining and crafting) but it also enables the Viridian Circle to target those that are harvesting recklessly. Obviously the last point is the most important ;-p

I would imagine that the way in which you harvest should have a visual effect of the resource node, and also be detectable via appropriate skills checks. So if you stumble across a shonky looking resource node that has been recklessly ripped apart, you know the harvesters have been naughty. Conversely a well-constructed resource harvesting camp would leave the resource node in pristine order. For the above to have any meaning we would need to be able to determine who has been harvesting a particular resource node as well as use skills to get an insight into a settlements resource gathering efforts.

Goblin Squad Member

You are very creative, I like you. :p

Goblin Squad Member

my addendum, as per request Brother Ravening

@Ravening, Devs, and Concerned parties

Basically a super-in-depth Development index tab and an in-game method of determining. I also agree with this idea.

In terms of building/construction:

You should be able to speed up/lower cost per-good of a project but in return get more upkeep cost or lower use rates. I think this is already planned. If not... why have different construction material tiers anyway?

In terms of harvesting:

Strip-mining needs to be an option for more than just raiders. if the system is built and in place there is no reason companies can't have miners do the same thing, or even do it better (less damage to building/larger yields). Ravening brings up excellent examples of when this might be applicable. And I'll drop/reiterate a few more:

1) War-time/Pre: Settlement A) might need to churn out a large amount of weapons for their batch of new recruits/NPCs to battle an approaching army.

2) Economic Conflict A: Company A) might be lagging behind in profits and need a quick 100k to pay off debts. decision time...

3) Economic Conflict B: Company A) and Company B) are mining the same resource. Who gets the most resources will prevail.

4) Economic Conflict C: A) and B) companies are at it again, same resource but separate locations. Who will get their supply to the market first and thus secure more sales?

5) Economic Conflict D: A) company is mining a resource and they know that B) company (whom they are feuding with) is on the way en masse to take the mine for their own purposes... The solution? take all you can and destroy as much remaining so that B) company is just wasting their effort to come out here. Standard scorched earth tactics.

Goblin Squad Member

Nevy wrote:
You are very creative, I like you. :p

Thank you. I like to think I can be very creative in a self-centered sort of way :) If it doesn't affect me or my intended character concept I tend to not put any thought into the matter. Unless I'm bored, then all bets are off.

I like to think my self-centeredness is both a blessing and a curse. This is part of the charm of being Chaotic Neutral in real life. :-p

Goblin Squad Member

Ravening wrote:
Nevy wrote:
You are very creative, I like you. :p

Thank you. I like to think I can be very creative in a self-centered sort of way :) If it doesn't affect me or my intended character concept I tend to not put any thought into the matter. Unless I'm bored, then all bets are off.

I like to think my self-centeredness is both a blessing and a curse. This is part of the charm of being Chaotic Neutral in real life. :-p

I'd say neutral good is has my name all over it so I'm able to appreciate your charm.

Goblin Squad Member

@ Ravening

What you call "strip mining" I call creative economic landscaping. You are not going to interfere with the Holy Cycle of the Elements (ore to ingot to tool/weapon and back to the earth as rust) are you?

Goblin Squad Member

yes.

yes we most certainly are.

But only to those who abuse the system

Goblin Squad Member

May not be a druid, but am still an elf. I will be heavily disheartened by too much of this 'creative economic landscaping' going on.

Goblin Squad Member

Join the party there, O glorious leader of the TEO.

Goblin Squad Member

Thanks for all this thinking Ravening.

One point about "Strip Mining" though:
The concept, as defined by GW on their blog is now obsolete. The latest Outpost Raiding Rules says so.

However it's certainly an opportunity to revive it as you describe, extended to harvesting operations and as a way to identify clearly "nature depredations" allowing the setting of PvP flags or feuding by declared protectors of nature.

I don't have a complete understanding yet of the existing rules and think that we will need to see ingame how things work to propose something practical and implementable by GW (plus I think they will be quite busy during the EE before we can hope to have them work on something that would impact the PvP flags, feuding and how harvesting works). But you can count on me to work on this concept, I'll be monitoring this thread and any idea that can come up.

Goblin Squad Member

Yeah... I'm not buying it.
GW isn't going to let the landscape be stripmined away, even if it looks like it's changing, it'll just revert to nature a little while after the harvesting project is done.

Goblin Squad Member

Keovar wrote:

Yeah... I'm not buying it.

GW isn't going to let the landscape be stripmined away, even if it looks like it's changing, it'll just revert to nature a little while after the harvesting project is done.

Admittedly, still what is great in PFO is the notion of permanence and the fact that our actions impact the world around us.

Maybe an immediate impact like Strip Mining is too much, but why not progressively change the Hex type from forest to barrens/plain depending on the nature of the outposts and PoI installed on them (lumbering and mining obviously). On the opposite, the absence of monsters and any economic activity would slowly revert the Hex to a natural state (most likely forest).

That give me an idea of possible nature PvP flag: a Company instead of claiming an Hex for a PoI would declare it Nature Haven or something like that and automatically gain an automatic feud against any other company trying to settle in said Hex.

Goblin Squad Member

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Yeah, that's what we need, more druids acting like a parody of PETA & Greenpeace combined.

Goblin Squad Member

Regarding the strip mining thing, if there be Dryads about, that would make for some interesting PvE....

Goblin Squad Member

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I appreciate the RP angle and all that... I am still not convinced that "Nature Guardians" should have distinct free ways to establish feuds. Too many others will want special circumstances for their RP angles.

We can all do pretty well with the described mechanics.

Goblin Squad Member

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I'll remind you guys, as well, that the druids don't need visible marks of changing landscape. We hear the cries of the forest in our bones and all that bs.

You don't need proof to start a feud, you don't need a balanced way of mitigating repercussions. Druids don't care about that. What we DO need is a way to get nature to fight for us (yes, I'm bringing up controlling escalation cycles again, and yes I know it is planned but not priority and might never happen).

Look, if you are concerned about not being able to defend nature, you just SAD the miners, drop ECs on the PoI/Settlement, and other things until there is enough grief (oh-no I said the "G" word!!!!!) between you and the party where a feud is "financially" viable (rep and alignment etc., not money).

Starting a war ain't hard, it is just work.

Goblin Squad Member

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@Keovar I would really appreciate if you could avoid RL politics, remember this is a fantasy game. I seriously hope you will refrain from that attitude in game, there's nothing worse against immersion.

BrotherZael wrote:
I'll remind you guys, as well, that the druids don't need visible marks of changing landscape. We hear the cries of the forest in our bones and all that bs.

My understanding on the purpose of this Thread was that we were discussing potential Crowdforging mechanisms to flesh-out the nature axis and allow factions/player to align themselves on it via specific actions, possibly allowing feuding mechanisms as long as they are balanced (@Bringslite: Good point you raise).

Here's another interesting idea:

Gedichtewicht wrote:

Nature´s Warrior [pvp-flag]

You are a protector of nature, you roam the lands looking for strip-miners using destructive exploitation, and bring nature´s wrath upon the defilers.
To do so you get the commune with nature ability which lets you scan your current hex for destructive exploitation.
Stripminer [pvp-flag]
You are out for the fast money, while flying this flag you can use destructive exploitation.
Your harvesting speed is increased by x%, but because of your recklessness you also loose x% of the maximum amount of resources you could have harvested otherwise or reduce the respawn rate of that ressource within the hex.

The Nature´s Warrior flag empowers its user to hunt down stripminers only! Using it to start attacking other people, even flying other pvp-flags should include consequences. Both flags open you up for pvp from other parties.

I fully agree that we do not need these mechanisms to implement the playstyle we want and that the existing Feud mechanisms shoudl be enough. Any Company can declare a Feud against an other if it's aim is to raid an outpost. But then we need a proper rationale to describe to other players the reasons of this raiding/razing and what triggers it, otherwise Druids/Nature defenders would be seen as acting randomly and not differently than any bandits. Players at the end of a Nature retribution need to understand why they are attacked.

Goblin Squad Member

I hate to rain on your parade, but we are bandits. instead of money we want nature. :L

Goblin Squad Member

BrotherZael wrote:
I hate to rain on your parade, but we are bandits. instead of money we want nature. :L

Im am not sure I properly conveyed my explanation (apologize it happens sometimes given I'm not a native speaker)

So of course the result for the party raided by Druids would be the same had they been raided by bandits who also razed their outpost. But the important thing is that the nature defilers understand the point of the razing: because they did something wrong about the balance of nature and not because TVC and it's allies randomly decided to attack their outposts.

The meaning of this thread is to propose in-game mechanisms to make this kind of feuding explicit like the pvp-flag exemple above and to allow parties to have actions that are explicitly labelled an aggression against nature like suggested by the OP.

However, whatever the cleverness of our crowdforging ideas, we know that GW will certainly not implement them quickly. Thus we will have to use the standard Feuding / Raiding mechanisms available in EE and because of that we need to have explicit rules of engagement that have a rationale pertaining to the defense of Nature.

Actually I think we need a specific thread for this Rule of Engagement thing in order to keep this one dedicated to the implementation of "Nature Defiling" in the game...

Goblin Squad Member

Nolondil Leafrunner wrote:
Actually I think we need a specific thread for this Rule of Engagement thing in order to keep this one dedicated to the implementation of "Nature Defiling" in the game...

Done, here: Defense of Nature: PvP Rules of Engagement

Goblin Squad Member

Nolondil Leafrunner wrote:
@Keovar I would really appreciate if you could avoid RL politics, remember this is a fantasy game. I seriously hope you will refrain from that attitude in game, there's nothing worse against immersion.

And I seriously hope you'll just be honest that you're grasping at an excuse to gank people. That's fine, the game supports that as an option, but you don't get a free ticket to do it because a logging camp makes you cry. We couldn't destroy the wilderness if we tried, and when a harvesting outpost closes, the world will revert to its default state.

The civilization-hating druid thing has been done to death. It even appears as one of the many problem characters of the annoying little brother in the song Best Game Ever. Just admit you're bandits, murderhobos, or whatever and don't try to pass it off as anything more justified than that.

Grand Lodge

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Even if they are murderhobos, using a RP launching point for it is a great starting point for PFO. Just think about a situation where everyone avoids the kind of steriotypes and generalizations about fantasy tropes. The setting would be either be devoid of RP, or it would be so wildly different than the Pathfinder setting that it destroys immersion.

Roleplaying wont be done as an excuse, I feel, it will be done for personal enjoyment.

Goblin Squad Member

When we've no game to actually play yet, I think looking for RP hooks is an unmitigated good at this point. By the time we're wandering the River Kingdoms, who knows what these ideas may have morphed into?

Goblin Squad Member

I'm not saying RP is a bad thing, I'm saying that murdering people because they harvest resources doesn't suddenly become good because you're a druid.

It's a tired trope too, but that's a separate issue. Maybe I'm just expecting too much to think that a druid might have a more creative outlook than that.

Goblin Squad Member

The more-creative outlook has to begin somewhere; I believe this is that somewhere.

Goblin Squad Member

Keovar wrote:

I'm not saying RP is a bad thing, I'm saying that murdering people because they harvest resources doesn't suddenly become good because you're a druid.

It's a tired trope too, but that's a separate issue. Maybe I'm just expecting too much to think that a druid might have a more creative outlook than that.

I would like to just point out that TVC is not out to kill all harvesters, but specifically ones who are abusing nature: using the strip mine function at PoIs, Necromancy, Summoning Demons, etc. I'm not gonna kill Bringslite cause his caravan is coming out of a PoI in the woods.

Unless it is in the Sanctuary woods, but seeign as that is settlement, shouldn't be a problem.

Goblin Squad Member

Keovar wrote:
I'm not saying RP is a bad thing, I'm saying that murdering people because they harvest resources doesn't suddenly become good because you're a druid.

You're right - it's neutral :)

Goblin Squad Member

Jiminy wrote:
Keovar wrote:
I'm not saying RP is a bad thing, I'm saying that murdering people because they harvest resources doesn't suddenly become good because you're a druid.
You're right - it's neutral :)

Neutral Evil, sure.

Goblin Squad Member

Keovar wrote:
It's a tired trope too, but that's a separate issue. Maybe I'm just expecting too much to think that a druid might have a more creative outlook than that.

Hmm, does this also mean Paladins should not kill Devils or Demons? It's a tired trope - it even appeared in the AD&D Players Handbook I had all the way back in 82.

Some tropes and stereotypes are integral to a character class. Druids and my flippant Paladin response above are two of the strongest ones I can think of. Otherwise they would be clerics or fighters.

Besides, I would much rather have a cookie cutter trope like this than just Faction A v Faction B.

Goblin Squad Member

Keovar wrote:
Jiminy wrote:
Keovar wrote:
I'm not saying RP is a bad thing, I'm saying that murdering people because they harvest resources doesn't suddenly become good because you're a druid.
You're right - it's neutral :)
Neutral Evil, sure.

Unless GW flag strip miners as 'naughty' or something. As it stands though, yes the druid will slip evil.

Goblin Squad Member

Jiminy wrote:
Keovar wrote:
It's a tired trope too, but that's a separate issue. Maybe I'm just expecting too much to think that a druid might have a more creative outlook than that.

Hmm, does this also mean Paladins should not kill Devils or Demons? It's a tired trope - it even appeared in the AD&D Players Handbook I had all the way back in 82.

Some tropes and stereotypes are integral to a character class. Druids and my flippant Paladin response above are two of the strongest ones I can think of. Otherwise they would be clerics or fighters.

Besides, I would much rather have a cookie cutter trope like this than just Faction A v Faction B.

No, I don't mean druids as a whole, I mean the druids who think the class means they must behave like eco-terrorists all the time. They're the ones who piss off anyone unfortunate enough to be associated with them by refusing to enter towns, siccing bears on every peasant who dares to chop a tree, etc.

Goblin Squad Member

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To put back this thread on rails, it came to my mind that GW may have already found an elegant solution to implement the Defense of Nature axis in the game without complicated stuff like we envisioned so far.

The answer is: Factional Conflict !

GW just have to create a Druidic Faction and pit against them a Technology/Industry faction, and here we have meaningfull PvPing easily implementable.

I envision the Druidic faction giving perks to their members allowing them to avoid the requirements of depending on a settlement (to be honest I do not really like the idea of Druids living in highly developed settlements due to game mechanisms) or allowing them allying/interacting with normally hostiles "Nature-Themed" NPCs on the map, thus really being able to wreck havoc against development and enriching the whole content. The Industry/Technology faction on it's side would give its members production bonus or tier-specific stuffs for their supporter's settlement and thus means to counter the treehuggers.

Keovar wrote:
No, I don't mean druids as a whole, I mean the druids who think the class means they must behave like eco-terrorists all the time. They're the ones who piss off anyone unfortunate enough to be associated with them by refusing to enter towns, siccing bears on every peasant who dares to chop a tree, etc.

Those are bad players, and the DM unable to reign said bad players is also a bad DM. It's unfortunate you had such a bad experience, but like your RL references there is no reason to conflate it with broader game concepts. What is stupid around a TT game among a few friends who are supposed to play together makes a lot more sense in a sandbox MMO where players are each others' content. I would rather have nature zealots in PFO and incentives for players to act so than people who play a druid WoW-style and don't give a rat to Golarion's Lore. In Golarion, The Druid Serves the Wilderness, and those who bless the peasants crops are the exception rather than the norm. You can play a hippie Druid, and many characters will be so, but most druid should have a rather "savage" attitude towards any encroachment to nature. This savage reaction could or could not lead to active destruction, but Fire is one of the four aspects of the Green Faith.

I see you are a Goblin Squad Member, are you aware you have been granted a free Guide to the River Kingdoms? Inside, you will find an insightful description of The Sevenarches and an example of how much Druids care for the peasants. This is how I expect most Druids to behave in this game and hope you do too.

Goblin Squad Member

Ah, my mistake, Keovar. Agree with you. The 'eco-warrior' aspect should not be the sole defining characteristic of the druid. I'm happy it should be one of many facets though. Some druids might be the hippie types that take a fair bit to rile them, and others might be barbarian clan shaman that are more on the aggressive side - but no 100% percent rabid eco-warriors please. We have squirrels for that.

Goblin Squad Member

Bumping this in conjunction with the main TVC thread.

Goblin Squad Member

Also adding this idea that I like.

Bluddwolf wrote:
I think what could be a cool thing is if a company that owns an outpost elects to set that outpost's harvesting to exploitative levels, the owning company should be flagged as heinous, but just towards faction(s) that are dedicated to nature and its preservation.

I guess at some point in the future we could do a recap and create a new thread. Meanwhile let's continue pilling ideas and comment on the topic.

Goblin Squad Member

Don't forget that many resources will only be available in areas where permanent camps and mines can't be built. Will everybody who hastily grabs starmetal in a monster hex be automatically labeled a stripminer?

Goblin Squad Member

Zweistern wrote:
Don't forget that many resources will only be available in areas where permanent camps and mines can't be built. Will everybody who hastily grabs starmetal in a monster hex be automatically labeled a stripminer?

ha, it seems my connection dieed while i posted my answer to this,nearly two weeks ago.

so, i think whati said back then was:
i´d say, of course not! BUT, if the same setlement sends people to extract all the starmetal, from the same hex,every day that might attract TVC´s attention.

Goblin Squad Member

As long as the resource remains renewable, or at least as long as we're not despoiling the land, I can't see why TVC cares which company actually does the mining. Now, other settlements who'd like some of that rare resource are likely to turn to raiding and other economic measures if we try to keep a monopoly...

Goblin Squad Member

;) Well as long as no mechanics for exhausting a resource(for higher gain or something like that) or despoiling the land are introduced
i can´t see another way to have this kind of conflict.
That´s why TVC keeps pushing for this kind of mechanics, sometime in the future.

Goblin Squad Member

Exactly ^^

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