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Guurzak wrote:
BartucTheBloody wrote:
On the whole objective alignment thing. I don't really care what developers, gods, or others say. I will always act in my own "moral" way. My highest moral authority in any world is me. Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos are just words.
They're just words that describe real patterns of behavior. If your actual behavior matches the patterns that we call Lawful then using that word to describe you is an accurate and useful description of important reality. If your actions match the pattern that we call Evil, then there will be real consequences- not because of the word, but because of the acts that made the word applicable.

Yes I agree, but out of game I may disagree with their classifications of good and evil just like in game my character may disagree as well. That is all I am saying. I will hold to my subjective morality in and out of character and in and out of game. I will also deal with whatever consequences whatever forces force on me as well as losing access to whatever skills/abilities. I am just arguing for a less black and white definition of abilities so that characters aren't as limited. I would like to see some low fantasy elements as far as morality is concerned.


On the whole objective alignment thing. I don't really care what developers, gods, or others say. I will always act in my own "moral" way. My highest moral authority in any world is me. Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos are just words.


Keovar wrote:

While I agree that's how it should be, with the evil going to the user and their actions rather than the tool they use, I think he's correct about spells with an alignment-descriptor like [Evil]. You didn't say where you pulled that quote from, but if it's relevant to Pathfinder, i'd like to see it.

Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos are objective facts of reality within the cosmology of Golarion's universe. I think he's only half right on the reason why, though. The devs, as a sort of collective GM, do indeed hold a sort of meta-divine position in the sense that they create the world and define how it operates, including how it responds to one's actions. However, the in-world deities may exemplify alignments, but they don't define them. If Sarenrae starts commanding the torture of baby unicorns in her name, the act doesn't suddenly become Good, she starts to shift toward Evil.

To Keovar:

You are right about that source as it is possibly player made around the concept of a white necromancer. However, followers and priests of pharasma are in essence "white" necromancers as they use all sorts of death oriented spells but do not summon the dead as it is seen as an abomination. This does hint that there is good necromancy and death magic and I feel it would be narrow minded to deem all necromancy and necromancers evil.

Here is an excerpt about pharasma's priests from the faiths of balance player companion.

"Phrasma's priests are clerics, spellcasters who specialize in divination, or "white necromancers" who study the magic of life and death but do not summon or control undead."

So there is your official pathfinder source on white necromancers who use death magic but do not summon or control undead.


BrotherZael wrote:

I will remind everyone that we did have a similar debate before. Perceived morals aside, there is definitive "good" and definitive "bad" (unlike real life) which is decided upon by the Gods (both as stated in the books and GW's interpretations/needs). Necromancy is "bad" and no matter what task it is used for, it will cause slide to "evil" simply because it is inherently "bad". Now you might be using them to save an orphanage, or growing needed crops after a large-scale devestating war, but the result is the same.

In those cases, considering you will be affecting "good" towards npcs and players it is possible that some of the direct results of what your undead do are mechanically-supported "good" in which case you will regain some "good". But whether you do or not, undead = evil so you will always drop some alignment.

Necromancy is not inherently bad in the pathfinder universe. The followers of Pharasma are Usually Neutral. Only Necromancers that force resurrect or enslave the dead should be considered evil. There are white necromancers who do no such thing. To quote a source on white necromancers:

" Most necromancers are foul, twisted individuals obsessed with corruption and death. A few, however, embrace the knowledge that true necromancy involves tapping the powers of life as well as those of death and unlife. These enlightened few are known as white necromancers.

Role: White necromancers are arcane spellcasters who study the mysterious connection between life and death. They do not walk the same evil path as traditional necromancers, or dark necromancers, as white necromancers call them. Instead, white necromancers honor the dead and seek to aid the living. They have a deep and profound understanding of life’s eternal cycle—the necromantic triad—which makes them potent healers as well as powerful spellcasters."

These necromancers ASK the dead for help and must pass a diplomacy check. Their EVIL necromancer spells lose the precursor EVIL. Alos they can channel neative and positive energy.


T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
Nolondil Leafrunner wrote:
...The Unquenchable Fire.
Anyone besides me concerned about the idea of "forest" and "Unquenchable Fire" operating so near one another? :-)

The Unquenchable Fire is mainly manifest in Elven pants. When we wear skirts we are feeding the fire more oxygen. ;)


Doggan wrote:
I enjoy RP, and RP reasons for actions as much as the next guy. But in this instance I think if you want to play the unequivocal defender of nature role, you'll probably have to take a hit of some sort. You're still murder hobos. Just...tree loving murder hobos.

Murder is a subjective term. I don't care who flags me for what if I think I did right, I did right. I do acknowledge that there may be some penalties for my beliefs and it could detriment my character but ce la vie.


We are actively seeking stealthy, hedonistic mercurial elves to help build the Order of the Unquenchable fire. Join now and honor our lady Calistria while protecting Elven civilization and culture! We are looking for Elves, Half-Elves and Elf-friends who will do what needs to be done to protect our Elven kingdom!


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Aet Kard Warstein wrote:
Actually, my wife's a Human, and I have yet to get her to try and grow a beard. But that's fine, just means she get's cold more often and needs a snuggle. You know how those clerics of Abadar are, they can go pretty cold at times.

That's when you need to give her some of that Unquenchable Fire ;)


Lifedragn wrote:
Laws: No orcs or half-orcs allowed. Owners must keep their Dwarves on a leash at all times.

I think maybe a muzzle law would be more appropriate!


TEO Lone_Wolf wrote:
As a half-elf Ranger, I will no doubt come out of the wilds to visit your fine settlement often. I am sure its Elven beauty will soothe my soul. I hope to welcomed there!

Of course! All of our Elven and Half-elven brethren will be welcomed. As well as Elf-friends. Thank you all for your interest in our Elven settlement. I hope Elf-kind unites behind us to create and foster Elven culture.


Aet Kard Warstein wrote:

@Zael

Just be aware that Rebellions already got a hefty price hike due to the danger involved, and the possibility of getting caught and starting a war. While these are perfectly acceptable outcomes to me, since they both lead to combat, I've been advised the cost of the wear and tear of the potential combat be accommodated.

So while a potential discount for marketing would absolutely be something put on the table, how 'much' of a discount would be a possible point of contention.

But to prevent derailing the thread...

Warstein Ale would like to promote the Order of Unquenchable Fire! Warsteins for generations have used our fine ale to keep our bellows stoked, powering us through hundreds of years of Mercenary work. The Order of Unquenchable Fire seems to be something similar, only for elves!

If your an elf who can't handle Warstein Ale, consider this Company today!

((No ill intent, just Joshin' the Elves!))

Don't mock the lady in the room dwarf. You may find your may find yourself plagued by wasps and impotent! And we wouldn't want to disappoint all those bearded ladies would we?


Keovar wrote:

Oh hey, it's more PETA & Greenpeace imitation.

Chopping wood won't make you evil, chopping people will. That's objective reality in the game as presented, and flimsy RP excuses aren't a valid reason to change it. If you want to murder commoners, you can deal with becoming neutral evil.

Whatever excuse I use is a valid excuse. And whether or not chopping trees is evil is a matter of opinion no matter what the developers say. You sound like you are trying to bring real world politics into a forum discussion about Pathfinder.


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Tarondor wrote:

So we have plenty of martial and arcane organizations vying for attention in PFO already. Know what we ain't got? Churches. Come on, someone, found a Church of Iomedae or Sarenrae or Erastil or whomever! You'd get priests and paladins flocking to your side and probably some instant cooperation from certain do-gooding groups out there.

Know what else we ain't got? Evil mercs. Someone could do very well founding a group dedicated to banditry and assassination. Just sayin'...

My company The Order of the Unquenchable Fire is a clandestine religious order dedicated to the Lady in the room, Our Goddess Calistria. We are a group of spies, assassins, irregulars and smugglers. We operate in service to the Elven Kingdom of Taur-im-Duinath. We accept all races who would like to help protect and defend Elven culture and civilization. Any Elf-friends are welcome.

Check out these links:

The Order of the Unquenchable Fire

Taur-im-Duinath.


T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
Amaziah, check out Forgeholm.

Awesome! More themed settlements and companies.


T7V Avari wrote:
There is a lot to like about this group and I highly recommend it. Heavy Roleplay theme, Chaotic Good settlement for the Echo Wood, players on both sides of the Atlantic and of course, dedicated to positive gameplay.

Thank you for your support Avari. You are too kind!


Elorebaen wrote:

Thod, thank you for posting this!!

I think it is great that we have community members reaching out and attempting to gain some understanding about Golarion, kudos!!

I figure I should also point out that there is a book on dwarves as well, Pathfinder Companion: Dwarves of Golarion

I would love it if the elven and dwarven players would go for something unique and build off the Golarion perspective.

Thod wrote:

Nolondil

If you want to learn about 'official' Elven Lore - Pathfinder Companion Elves of Golarion. It is one of the very early books - so still 3.5 material. But it contains more fluff as crunch and I can recommend it for someone who wants to build an Elven Settlement in Golarion. Be warned - the Companions are only 32 pages - in my view a great read as you can do them in an evening - but some people expect something more heavy.

Page 9 - Relations with other races: wrote:


Dwarves: Elves and dwarves are essentially friendly in the sense that good fences make good neighbors. Both have been on Golarion for longer than any other major race, though the dwarfs were underground for much of the time that the elves ruled the surface. Some expect such elementally different peoples to clash, but in fact their complete lack of interest in each others territory and commercial pursuit makes conflict rare, and the two get along fine as different types of isolationists.
Elves appreciate dwarven strengths that compensate for elven weaknesses. Their hearty builds, resistance to magic and willingness to dig and mine (activities most elves find dull or maddening) are all welcome traits. While not all elves are so broad-minded, most prefer to make use of such differences than fight over them. The dwarves' dour lawful bent does sometimes chafe elven sensibilities, but few elves bother taking it seriously.

I totally agree, I would like to see the dawning of a more friendly and curious relation between dwarves and elves. Although I do admit I am guilty of giving in to dwarven provocation.


TEO Papaver wrote:

Welcome, Taur-Im-Duinath!

My apologies if this will look hostile in any way but I feel very strongly regarding this topic. This question goes to all members of RA: how is a settlement that has what is basically RP racism at its core compatible with Roseblood?

I am a member of the elven kingdom and I am not racist. I just think elven culture is superior not the elven race. And to that point there are different degrees of racists. Someone who is racist wouldn't necessarily go around offing other races he might just think elves are innately better that does't mean their kingdom has to attack all other races.


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Aet Kard Warstein wrote:

No, no they do not. They carry on and on and on, bringing their elders and the wind and the dirt into it, finally ending by cursing the heavens and over-dramatically falling to the ground.

And that's for a stubbed toe.

At least Elves can travel a decent distance on foot before whining. Also I don't recall elves being scared of trees ;)

Gimli Whining in Forest..


BrotherZael wrote:

I tortured and killed elves.

I also killed humans, orcs, demons, angels, and most other things besides.

Then I had tea and scones for breakfast :D

Keep your treachery out of Elven lands Zael!


I quoted that exact passage two posts before you Thod haha.


I think any feuds have been the product of individual players poking fun at others. Dwarves and Elves in Golarion are friendly, according to the Pathfinder Companion Elves of Golarion, "Elves and dwarves are essentially friendly in the sense that good fences make good neighbors. Both have been on Golarion far longer than any other major race, though the dwarves were underground for much of the time that the elves ruled the surface. Some expect such elementally different peoples to clash, but in fact their complete lack of interest in each other’s territory and commercial pursuits makes conflict rare, and the two get along fine as different types of isolationists. Elves appreciate dwarven strengths that compensate for elven weaknesses. Their hearty builds, resistances to magic, and willingness to dig and mine (activities most elves find dull or maddening) are all welcome traits. While not all elves are so broad-minded, most prefer to make use of such differences rather than fight over them. The dwarves’ dour, lawful bent does sometimes chafe elven sensibilities, but few elves bother taking it seriously."


So I understand a lawful company can't be chartered by a chaotic settlement but what a bout being a part of a chaotic kingdom? I also think that NG would be the way to go so that their company can have some lawful leanings. If I understand what you posted correctly, they could have a NG company with LG members right?


I also reached out to our Elven brethren and explained that there could be a place and purpose for a lawful company of elves and half elves. Elven comrades unite under the banner of Taur-Im-Duinaith!


Did you cut the brakes again?!! God**** it! What! Why would you do that! AHHHHH!

Good call on getting those brakes fixed. Yeah I saw that coming a mile away.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Good thing, too. They're hard to find otherwise.

** spoiler omitted **

They aren't too hard to find they look like your very phallic Kobold face.


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Grickin wrote:
Nine members? Whoa. That's not bad for a bunch of pointy-eared frolicking little woodnymphmen who wear frilly pink mandresses...

The dresses are designed for your women to have easy access to our Elven mandress parts.


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Aet Kard Warstein wrote:
Nolondil Leafrunner wrote:
Aet Kard Warstein wrote:
IC: Elf culture? You mean like nancying around colorful poles and frolicking in the moonlight? Argh! It's enough to make my dwarven beard curl!
You are absolutely right Master Dwarf, I confirm you that Elf Culture is essentially dancing around colorful poles. And obviously it is not our kind who poisoned those poachers and subsequently burned their outpost. This is surely the work of some bandits trying to frame my people, only they were not aware of our refined manners an frail nature incapable of such gruesome acts.
Exactly! And if you ever need contracts so a fine Dwarf can meet out justice on your frail behalf, have a messenger o' yours prance on over and let me know, I'm savin' up for a new axe!

Saving up is right! I bet that Axe is twice your size!


Thanks for adding us Nihimon.


I am a part of the Taur-Im-Duinath Kingdom and am announcing the Order of the Unquenchable Fire. This organization will be a clandestine arm of the Elven Kingdom. For more information check out this post http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r3m1?Chartered-Company-The-Order-of-the
Thank you for your consideration.


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Thank you for your warm welcome. I much prefer the moonlight to a big hole in the ground!


Kingdom Name: Taur-im-Duinath

Company Name: The Order of the Unquenchable Fire

Accepted Races: Elf, Half-elf and Elf Friends

Greetings, I am BartucTheBloody and I would like to announce the Order of the Unquenchable Fire.

We are a Chaotic Good elven chartered company that is part of the Taur-im-Duinath Elven Kingdom. We are currently recruiting individuals who are interested in helping establish an elven kingdom. The Order of the Unquenchable Fire is a paramilitary organization dedicated to more clandestine pursuits. The Order pays homage to the lady in the room, our Goddess Calistria. Calistria is the Goddess of trickery, lust and revenge. The order's main focus will be exploring, patrolling, spying, assassination, and paramilitary activities. We will be the clandestine arm of the Elven kingdom of Taur-im-Duinath(Think the Blades from The Elder Scrolls Series but darker and elven). The order will also be the most likely company to accept Elf-Friends as we are always recruiting spies and agents. We are currently looking for top agents to help structure the organization and establish rules/practices.

The Taur-im-Duinath Elven kingdom will be dedicated to establishing an elf kingdom in the Riverlands and re-establishing elf culture. Each chartered company within the kingdom will get a vote on major decisions. If you are interested in joining the Order of the Unquenchable Fire or joining the elven kingdom in General contact sfrances@murraystate.edu. The kingdom of Taur-im-Duinath is also looking to absorb like minded companies and nature /eleven themed companies into our alliance.