Snapping Turtle Clutch + Charge AoOs


Rules Questions


Okay,

I have a player who is a grappling monk and we got into an argument over Snapping Turtle Clutch. We resolved the big issues with it but I have a lingering question about the interaction of this feat with a charge. Here's the scenario:

Monk charges a giant.
Giant takes his AoO at 10ft range.
Monk uses STC to grapple and succeeds.

Question: does the monk's charge complete and allow him to make a melee attack before his turn ends or is he done and unable to make a second grapple?

Shadow Lodge

Does the monk have 10' reach?

If the monk did not have reach, he cannot attempt the Grapple triggered by Snapping Turtle Clutch because he can not reach the Giant. So, the question is moot.

If the monk did have reach, he would not have triggered a movement AOO (i.e. he would have resolved his charge attack from 10' away). So, the question is moot.

Finally, from the wording of your question, it sounds like the monk was going to grapple at the end of his charge--Grappling is a standard action and charging is a full round action. They are incompatible.

Theory time:
So, let's say the monk charges a guard (who does not have a reach weapon). The guard readies an action to attack the monk if he enters a threatened square.

Monk charges.
Monk enters threatened square.
Guard's readied action triggers.
Guard's attack misses.
Monk's Snapping Turtle Clutch triggers.
Monk succeeds on grapple.
Both gain grappled condition.
And then...

This is where table variation kicks in.

When you gain the gain the grappled condition, you cannot move. Technically, the readied action pre-empts the end of your charge (i.e. the attack) and the immediate action grapple also comes before final charge attack. Does this interrupt and end the charge? I think most GMs would let the charge attack resolve since you are in the square adjacent to your target and you can still make an attack while grappled with your unarmed strike. However, the GM would also be able to adjudicate it the other way as well.


Sammy T wrote:

If the monk did have reach, he would not have triggered a movement AOO (i.e. he would have resolved his charge attack from 10' away). So, the question is moot.

Just to point out that there are ways to gain natural reach, which means the monk could choose to provoke an AoO by not attacking at his full reach


CWheezy wrote:
Sammy T wrote:

If the monk did have reach, he would not have triggered a movement AOO (i.e. he would have resolved his charge attack from 10' away). So, the question is moot.

Just to point out that there are ways to gain natural reach, which means the monk could choose to provoke an AoO by not attacking at his full reach

Nope, charger must attack from the closest square that he can make an attack from. No wiggle room there for forgoing reach.


Thanks guys but I think I was a little unclear (apologies):

Monk charges a giant.
The giant makes his AoO when the monk is 10' away.
The giant misses.
Question: can the monk use Snapping Turtle Clutch on the giant since the giant's reach is 10' even if the monk only has a reach of 5'?
Assuming he can - the monk's grapple goes off, the giant is pulled 5' to an adjacent square as per grapple rules and both gain the grappled condition.
Question 2: Can the dwarf now complete his charge with an unarmed strike?

The monk has argued that he can do the grapple despite not having reach to his opponent since he is moving towards the target and could this be seen as tackling the target. I've ruled it okay in the past but it seems sort of sketchy when I think about it.

Silver Crusade

Monk charges a giant.
The giant makes his AoO when the monk is 10' away.
The giant misses.

Question: can the monk use Snapping Turtle Clutch on the giant since the giant's reach is 10' even if the monk only has a reach of 5'?

No.

Remove charge from the equation: this is no different than if this was a normal round, it was the monk's turn and his opponent was 10' away--if it he doesn't have reach, he cannot grapple. He would have to move in until his foe is within reach.

Shadow Lodge

He cannot use STC at range unless he has reach defense and/or strike back.

Both are feats I don't have with me, but they're supposed to let stuff like this happen.


GM DSP wrote:

He cannot use STC at range unless he has reach defense and/or strike back.

Both are feats I don't have with me, but they're supposed to let stuff like this happen.

RAW with STC. He should be allowed to initiate the grapple. Strike back has no effect on STC as you have to ready an action to use and while your argument makes a little sense in how things could work its not what is written.

STC can be explained that when he misses as an immediate action on his turn you grab the weapon or his arm or whatever melee attack he used and pull him closer to you if you win the grapple.

Again that's just flavor but straight mechanics says he can. Unless I wrong which is possible :)


Straight mechanics doesn't assume 10+ foot reach. They assume 5 foot, making this a circumstance where I would require a feat or ability that either gave the monk reach or somehow allowed him to attack limbs, which normally isn't possible.


In My Humble Opinion wrote:
Straight mechanics doesn't assume 10+ foot reach. They assume 5 foot, making this a circumstance where I would require a feat or ability that either gave the monk reach or somehow allowed him to attack limbs, which normally isn't possible.

"Whenever an opponent misses you with a melee attack while you are using the Snapping Turtle Style feat, you can use an immediate action to attempt a grapple combat maneuver against that opponent, but with a –2 penalty"

I understand the assumption aspect of the feat. But RAW states you can. I agree it could have be written better as a creature you threaten but its not.

Also if this was an AOO instead of an immediate action then that would include threatened enemies and a grapple would not be allowed . The fact that this is an immediate action that happens on the enemy's turn is enough of an ability for me to allow the grapple to happen.


sloden wrote:
In My Humble Opinion wrote:
Straight mechanics doesn't assume 10+ foot reach. They assume 5 foot, making this a circumstance where I would require a feat or ability that either gave the monk reach or somehow allowed him to attack limbs, which normally isn't possible.

"Whenever an opponent misses you with a melee attack while you are using the Snapping Turtle Style feat, you can use an immediate action to attempt a grapple combat maneuver against that opponent, but with a –2 penalty"

I understand the assumption aspect of the feat. But RAW states you can. I agree it could have be written better as a creature you threaten but its not.

Also if this was an AOO instead of an immediate action then that would include threatened enemies and a grapple would not be allowed . The fact that this is an immediate action that happens on the enemy's turn is enough of an ability for me to allow the grapple to happen.

Ok - by RAW he gets to attempt a grapple - it stops his charge flat and fails as he has no reach. You can not attack a limb (although you can use an ability to make an attack it doesn't connect).

Now he doesn't get to finish his charge - much easier to just point out you can't attack limbs and not let the player waste an action (even though they could).


If he gets to attempt a grapple by RAW a succeeds then.

"If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails)."

These feats and abilities all specifically state that that the creature needs to be within reach no assumptions. I'm sure there are more but those are the first ones I found.

Riposte

Cleave

Shield of the Liege

If we take a look at Strike Back then this allows you to ready a standard action to make a melee attack against limbs or weapons.

Now if we go back to STC, instead of readying a standard action to make the attack or grapple it happens as an immediate action during the enemy
s turn. Its just like readying an action to make the attack except its reflexive and not prepared. Just my two more cents.


sloden wrote:

If he gets to attempt a grapple by RAW a succeeds then.

"If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails)."

These feats and abilities all specifically state that that the creature needs to be within reach no assumptions. I'm sure there are more but those are the first ones I found.

Riposte

Cleave

Shield of the Liege

If we take a look at Strike Back then this allows you to ready a standard action to make a melee attack against limbs or weapons.

Now if we go back to STC, instead of readying a standard action to make the attack or grapple it happens as an immediate action during the enemy
s turn. Its just like readying an action to make the attack except its reflexive and not prepared. Just my two more cents.

Incorrect - PRD says:

Quote:
Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.

You can make the grapple check but as part of that check you must take the penalties specific to the roll if they apply - without some form of reach your check fails automatically due to lack of reach.

And strike back is a feat - feats allow things that break the rules (and would work as a form of reach in this case) - so yeah of course it works - that's what it's designed to do because it's not possible otherwise.


First off, thanks for using the PRD to strengthen your argument.

Quote:
And strike back is a feat - feats allow things that break the rules (and would work as a form of reach in this case) - so yeah of course it works - that's what it's designed to do because it's not possible otherwise.

I completely agree with this. This is why its hard for me to understand why the same doesn't apply to STC.

Snapping Turtle Clutch is a feat that breaks the same rules. It doesn't state that you need to be within reach of your enemy like the other feats specify. It just states that you can initiate a grapple when someone misses you with a melee attack which can break the reach rule.

Now if you followed a flow chart on grapple, the only thing it says that makes a grapple fail is if you can not move the creature to an adjunct square after a successful check.


I try and look at it from a flow chart view or an order of event.

1. Does the person trying to grapple have a standard action available?
2. Is the creature within reach of the grappler?
If the answer is no to 1 or 2 then person can not initiate a grapple. If yes then go to step 3

3. Make a grapple check against creature
4. Resolve check

Now the STC feat bypasses both 1 and 2 and goes straight into making a grapple check as written. Breaking the normal rules.

The argument I'm trying to make is this. Being within range or reach is a prerequisite of initiating a grapple as with all other attacks. Its not make a grapple check and then check to see if the creature is within reach.


http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/ultimateCombatFeats.html# _snapping-turtle-clutch

Quote:

Snapping Turtle Clutch (Combat)

Your unarmed style allows you to turn your opponent's attack into an opportunity.

Prerequisites: Snapping Turtle Style, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +3 or monk level 3rd.

Benefit: While you are using the Snapping Turtle Style feat, the shield bonus the style grants to your AC applies to your CMD and touch AC. Whenever an opponent misses you with a melee attack while you are using the Snapping Turtle Style feat, you can use an immediate action to attempt a grapple combat maneuver against that opponent, but with a –2 penalty.

Bolding mine.

Looking at your flowchart - I don't see where this feat says 'make a grapple check' - it says you can attempt a grapple combat maneuver - but that starts the flowchart at number 1.

I do see your point - I just don't see the feat actually skipping any part of the process.

*edit* I could see a GM rule either way though - I am comfortable with that - I would expect that in the case here - it'd be better to have an understanding of what your GM thinks so that your expectations are set, I'm not sure that allowing it to work with reach would be game breaking - but as with anything I'd have to actually play with someone using it like that before I could be sure.


Good catch! I can see the attempt failing the steps I provided.

*edit* This actually happened in my game last week. Our GM ruled that I couldn't initiate the grapple and I quickly relented to save game time instead arguing. I'm glad to see he made the right call as he normally does but that won't stop me from debating it.

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