sloden's page

Does pinning knockout double the constrict damage while grappling?

So what is your question? Are you wanting to "Use" your item the same day you make it? You are not allowed to "adventure" on that same day, since the 8-hours of fabrication cut into your 8-hours of adventuring.

Yes! I want to use the scroll of magic missle that it took me 2 hours to make while adventuring. Now I know that it takes longer to make an item if you are adventuring that's fine. I just want to be able to use it and not wait 1 day to use a scroll that has mechanics in the book for this purpose.

It also states a minimum of 8 hours (with some exceptions), which he has changed to a minimum of 24 hours (with no exceptions). To me, his ruling on this is a houserule.

I agree. It would be a house rule because he changed the minimum.

I also have to ask why it's important that it be done in the middle of the day. Generally things like this occur in safe environs so there's no real rush to have the item function that day.

I believe scrolls with less than 250gp were ruled to work this way. So you can create a low level scroll and use it the same day it was created. I believe that if I had been working on a magic item and it needed 10 hours to create. I could work 8 hours the first day and 2 hours the next then I should be able to put the armor on and get the benefits without having to wait another 24 hours.

Thanks for your feedback.

I'm running into an issue with the GM.

He states that since it takes 1 day/per 1,000gp to make an item that the item isn't completed and useable till the end of the day or 24 hours.

Here is a quote from him

"Only one magic item can be worked on or created per day. The magic item is not completed until at least 24 hours have passed regardless of whether it takes 2 hours or 8 hours to make. Magic items that take more than a day are not completed until the end of that 24 hour block. Each magic item requires at least one day to complete, but only 8 hours of actual dedication for most magic items. One day is the minimum to complete a magic item."

Now he is aware of the this text in the book.

Creating an item requires 8 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof), with a minimum of at least 8 hours.

But even with that he is sticking to his guns of it taking 1 day to complete.

This is last stand on the matter.

"I challenge you to find where it states the item is completed and ready for use after the dedication time has elasped. The dedication time is usually 8 hours per day for most magic items."

I'd be interested for sure

Yes. You would need improved grapple to prevent the provoke.

Good catch! I can see the attempt failing the steps I provided.

*edit* This actually happened in my game last week. Our GM ruled that I couldn't initiate the grapple and I quickly relented to save game time instead arguing. I'm glad to see he made the right call as he normally does but that won't stop me from debating it.

I try and look at it from a flow chart view or an order of event.

1. Does the person trying to grapple have a standard action available?
2. Is the creature within reach of the grappler?
If the answer is no to 1 or 2 then person can not initiate a grapple. If yes then go to step 3

3. Make a grapple check against creature
4. Resolve check

Now the STC feat bypasses both 1 and 2 and goes straight into making a grapple check as written. Breaking the normal rules.

The argument I'm trying to make is this. Being within range or reach is a prerequisite of initiating a grapple as with all other attacks. Its not make a grapple check and then check to see if the creature is within reach.

First off, thanks for using the PRD to strengthen your argument.

And strike back is a feat - feats allow things that break the rules (and would work as a form of reach in this case) - so yeah of course it works - that's what it's designed to do because it's not possible otherwise.

I completely agree with this. This is why its hard for me to understand why the same doesn't apply to STC.

Snapping Turtle Clutch is a feat that breaks the same rules. It doesn't state that you need to be within reach of your enemy like the other feats specify. It just states that you can initiate a grapple when someone misses you with a melee attack which can break the reach rule.

Now if you followed a flow chart on grapple, the only thing it says that makes a grapple fail is if you can not move the creature to an adjunct square after a successful check.

If he gets to attempt a grapple by RAW a succeeds then.

"If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails)."

These feats and abilities all specifically state that that the creature needs to be within reach no assumptions. I'm sure there are more but those are the first ones I found.

Riposte

Cleave

Shield of the Liege

If we take a look at Strike Back then this allows you to ready a standard action to make a melee attack against limbs or weapons.

Now if we go back to STC, instead of readying a standard action to make the attack or grapple it happens as an immediate action during the enemy
s turn. Its just like readying an action to make the attack except its reflexive and not prepared. Just my two more cents.

Straight mechanics doesn't assume 10+ foot reach. They assume 5 foot, making this a circumstance where I would require a feat or ability that either gave the monk reach or somehow allowed him to attack limbs, which normally isn't possible.

"Whenever an opponent misses you with a melee attack while you are using the Snapping Turtle Style feat, you can use an immediate action to attempt a grapple combat maneuver against that opponent, but with a –2 penalty"

I understand the assumption aspect of the feat. But RAW states you can. I agree it could have be written better as a creature you threaten but its not.

Also if this was an AOO instead of an immediate action then that would include threatened enemies and a grapple would not be allowed . The fact that this is an immediate action that happens on the enemy's turn is enough of an ability for me to allow the grapple to happen.

He cannot use STC at range unless he has reach defense and/or strike back.

Both are feats I don't have with me, but they're supposed to let stuff like this happen.

RAW with STC. He should be allowed to initiate the grapple. Strike back has no effect on STC as you have to ready an action to use and while your argument makes a little sense in how things could work its not what is written.

STC can be explained that when he misses as an immediate action on his turn you grab the weapon or his arm or whatever melee attack he used and pull him closer to you if you win the grapple.

Again that's just flavor but straight mechanics says he can. Unless I wrong which is possible :)

The skills and feats are dependent on the HD of the construct. You can add HD per 2000gp I think. But there is a list in the monster creation of the # of feats per HD and the Golem get 2 skill points per extra HD as well.

Check out the monster creation section and it covers constructs a little bit.

Awesome, thanks for your comments and clarification!

Well I have to disagree. If the maximize effect treats the damage roll included in the spell as full effect when hit and sneak attack is already part of the damage included in the spell then it shouldn't matter what attack is used to deliver the precision damage as its not separate as long as it meets the prerequisites for Sneak Attack.

Basically you are dealing sneak attack with maximized spell ammunition.

According to the Lead Designer sneak attack damage is part of the damage roll, not a special effect that accompanies the attack. Therefore there damage should be full bleed damage. You basically nick an artery and force him to heal check or bleed out.

This was also discussed when using Vampiric Touch and sneak attack to get the healing benefits of the sneak attack damage.

citation

DR does not negate sneak attack damage. The sneak attack damage is not a special effect that accompanies the attack, it is part of the damage roll.

Hope that clears it up.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Sorry let me reference this quote. This states that Sneak attack is not separate damage but part of the 1d6+1 damage roll for magic stone.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

DR does not negate sneak attack damage. The sneak attack damage is not a special effect that accompanies the attack, it is part of the damage roll.

Hope that clears it up.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o4f8?Spells-and-Sneak-Attack#17

Why is that any different than using sneak attack with Vampiric Touch?

So 3 magic stones in the hands of an 8th level Sap Master Rogue would deal around 80 points of damage per stone if he hits with his sneak attack? I agree a 4th level spell slot might be better but I was thinking more of using a Rod of lesser Maximize. That could make a rapid shot sling rogue who has caught someone flatfooted pretty non-lethal.

If I used Maximize Spell on Magic Stone, does the damage of the stone do an automatic 7 points of damage?