Why is the Blackblade a terrible archetype for the Magus?


Advice

1 to 50 of 151 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I was asking for help on boosting Magus defenses in this thread http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qwe5?Nondex-Magus-Defenses and one of the responses was that the BB is a terrible hate-worthy archetype.

There wasn't an explanation and it did not relate to my question so I'd thought I'd ask in a separate thread. What makes it so bad?

Also for that matter, my other archetype, Hexcrafter, what makes that one so terrible?

I also posted a thread regarding my original build. Please feel free to add if you have any suggestions or tweaks. Thread is here: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qvl1?Magus-for-PFSsuggestions-and-helpful-tips #7

The build isn't set in stone I just liked the flavor ideas. Same reason I went with a Rhoka blade. But if those choices cripple the character into ineffectiveness I'd like to know why and how to improve him to a point where he hopefully won't be dragging a table down.


It's not a terrible archtype. However, it does limit how you can enchant your weapon - for instance you can't have an agile black blade weapon. This sort of pigeon holes you into dervish dancing or strength builds.

Grand Lodge

6 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ignore the response.

The Bladebound is what you make of it. You get something in exchange for something else. It saves you worry about getting a magical weapon, yet there are choices that are closed off, especially if you rule as I do, that you can't separately enchant it. (so you can't make the blade the centerpiece of a spell-storing nova build, for example) But then I don't play that way, so I don't care.

The general rule is that when someone else tells you that A sucks, it's because that they themselves can't see how to make A work, and so come to the conclusion that if they can't make it work, no one else can.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

People love Hexcrafter as hexes are great so I'm not sure why that was mentioned. Regarding Bladebound, the scaling weapon is nice but the fact you can't enchant it hurts especially if your build focuses on a nonstandard but excellent weapon property like Agile.

Scarab Sages

I didn't mean to suggest it was hate worthy, sorry. My actual response was:

Quote:
Are you certain on bladebound? The blade doesn't upgrade as quickly as a normal magic weapon, and not getting an Arcana until sixth level really hurts.

I don't personally like it that much for a few reasons, but it can be good if you are in a low magic campaign.

One: It delays your arcana. In your other thread you were making a hexcrafter, and they need arcana for hexes and for normal arcana. You can't take an extra arcana feat until you have an arcana, so waiting until 6th level delays one of the main magus abilities.

Two: It reduces your Arcane pool. This is a needed resource and it hurts when it's missing.

Three: The enhancement bonus of Black Blade is set by you level and is lower than what your would get if you had standard WBL allocated to a magic weapon. Depending on your game, this can be good because you have a guaranteed magic weapon, but in a standard game, it's weaker than having a normal magic weapon.

Four: Intelligent items are a pain. Bickering with your blade is not my idea of fun, and I was never really a fan of Elric, so having a powered-down Strombringer isn't appealing.


Both of those are great archetypes. I've never played a magus, but I've ran a lot of games for them and seen many kind in action.

The black blade will save you 18k by the time you hit seeker arc just in its enchantment bonus. It looks like this is for pfs, so thats roughly 12% of your total wealth in savings. That alone is pretty good but it has a whole slew of other benefits (like alertness) with very little trade off.

Hexcrafter adds an amazing amount of versatility to your class. If your going the debuff route you'll generally want to focus more on int than str/dex (which may be why they consider it a negative) but by level 10 your only 2 hexes down on a witch. You can still fight like a magus and hex things. So, you can stand back and be effective and then skirmish into melee at your convenience and beat stuff up.

As a matter of fact, that is the exact magus build I'm considering playing when/if I play one (I have too many PC's already). Neither is crippling, and in fact I'd say they are empowering, and at the very least doable.

Shadow Lodge

Imbicatus wrote:


Four: Intelligent items are a pain. Bickering with your blade is not my idea of fun, and I was never really a fan of Elric, so having a powered-down Strombringer isn't appealing.

a gm who plays by RAW may use your weapon to prevent you from actions out of your normal character. ive done it to a player 5 times in one session because he was a neutral good alignment and he was trying to commit evil acts to by pass NPCs, making unnecessary threats of violence, and actually trying to "murder" a downed opponent. the sword who was also neutral good wasnt havin none of that. it also can try to over take you to pursue its own goals in the late game. you will eventually roll a 1 and it will eventually get you no matter how high your will save is.

those will saves can really get annoying for you.


Where does it say you can't enchant the black blade. It seem to me that you could add anything but enhancement bonuses. I'd consider it +5 weapon right from the start as it is a +5 only you don't have access to the full enhancement bonus as it depends on your level. So if you want to a special abilities you could as +6 or higher weapon. That's just how I read it.

Scarab Sages

voska66 wrote:
Where does it say you can't enchant the black blade. It seem to me that you could add anything but enhancement bonuses. I'd consider it +5 weapon right from the start as it is a +5 only you don't have access to the full enhancement bonus as it depends on your level. So if you want to a special abilities you could as +6 or higher weapon. That's just how I read it.

This FAQ does.

FAQ wrote:

Magus, Black Blade: Can I use Craft Magic Arms and Armor to increase my blade's enhancement bonus?

No, nor can you use that feat to add other properties (such as flaming) to the black blade. You can use your arcane pool to temporarily add abilities to your black blade.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

@Imba it wasn't you :)

There was someone who specifically posted

Quote:
Blackblade (hate this archetype by the way, it's absolutely terrible)

I did catch some of the disadvantages in picking up the archetypes but I thought they were fair exchanges for a character. Losing/delaying a magus arcana in exchange for Hexes didn't seem like a horrific loss, but then I haven't played a magus (though I've been in parties with them).

And the blade, quirks and all, still seems like a solid magic weapon (even if you cannot enchant it) certainly for the majority of a PFS career.

Absolute worst-case scenario if I thought if I found these archetypes completely crippling I would consider retraining out of them.

Though I'm also open on going vanilla Magus with no archetypes at all.

Thanks all for the info, have quite a bit to think about! :)

Dark Archive

Imbicatus wrote:
I didn't mean to suggest it was hate worthy, sorry. My actual response was:
Quote:
Are you certain on bladebound? The blade doesn't upgrade as quickly as a normal magic weapon, and not getting an Arcana until sixth level really hurts.

I don't personally like it that much for a few reasons, but it can be good if you are in a low magic campaign.

One: It delays your arcana. In your other thread you were making a hexcrafter, and they need arcana for hexes and for normal arcana. You can't take an extra arcana feat until you have an arcana, so waiting until 6th level delays one of the main magus abilities.

Two: It reduces your Arcane pool. This is a needed resource and it hurts when it's missing.

Three: The enhancement bonus of Black Blade is set by you level and is lower than what your would get if you had standard WBL allocated to a magic weapon. Depending on your game, this can be good because you have a guaranteed magic weapon, but in a standard game, it's weaker than having a normal magic weapon.

Four: Intelligent items are a pain. Bickering with your blade is not my idea of fun, and I was never really a fan of Elric, so having a powered-down Strombringer isn't appealing.

I'm the one who expressed the hatred for this archetype but I agree one hundred percent with your statements here.

My real issue with it is this is an archetype that takes away choices and options from the player all to save you a little cash which is the easiest most abundant resource in the game.
All taking this archetype does is save you a little cash up front in exchange for flexibility and power later in the game.

Add to that it really does lock you into a more martial style of play as opposed to magical. You are effectively trading your ability to bend reality over your knee and beat it to your whim for a hunk of pig iron that's a little easier to swing but acts like a stuck up girlfriend if you try to do what it doesn't think you should.
It's not a rationale trade.


Rerednaw wrote:
Losing/delaying a magus arcana in exchange for Hexes didn't seem like a horrific loss, but then I haven't played a magus (though I've been in parties with them).

Hexcrafter actually loses nothing in the long run except Improved Spell Recall (as that is not replaced by the archetype the Hexcrafter gets regular Spell Recall at level 11) and in return gets a bunch of extra powerful options he can take. Nothing about the archetype innately delays Magus Arcana progression.

And that is why Hexcrafter is awesome.

Dark Archive

chaoseffect wrote:
Rerednaw wrote:
Losing/delaying a magus arcana in exchange for Hexes didn't seem like a horrific loss, but then I haven't played a magus (though I've been in parties with them).

Hexcrafter actually loses nothing in the long run except Improved Spell Recall (as that is not replaced by the archetype the Hexcrafter gets regular Spell Recall at level 11) and in return gets a bunch of extra powerful options he can take. Nothing about the archetype innately delays Magus Arcana progression.

And that is why Hexcrafter is awesome.

Not quite true. Other then giving up early access to spell recall it also forces the Magus to give up several Arcana he would have taken if he hadn't spent those arcana slots on hexes. This is not necessarily a bad thing but it is an opportunity cost that you have to absorb.

Not terrible but can be unpleasant to let some of those options go in a feat-starved class.

Grand Lodge

Terrible ? You calling me terrible ?

[starts epic summoning of things best left unspoken that round ears ARE NOT MEANT TO KNOW]

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

Three: The enhancement bonus of Black Blade is set by you level and is lower than what your would get if you had standard WBL allocated to a magic weapon. Depending on your game, this can be good because you have a guaranteed magic weapon, but in a standard game, it's weaker than having a normal magic weapon.

My real issue with it is this is an archetype that takes away choices and options from the player all to save you a little cash which is the easiest most abundant resource in the game.
All taking this archetype does is save you a little cash up front in exchange for flexibility and power later in the game.

Add to that it really does lock you into a more martial style of play as opposed to magical. You are effectively trading your ability to bend reality over your knee and beat it to your whim for a hunk of pig iron that's a little easier to swing but acts like a stuck up girlfriend if you try to do what it doesn't think you should.
It's not a rationale trade.

1.Most normal campaigns you're going to find that "bend reality over your knee and beat it to your whim" doesn't quite work out that way in practise. Even the straight magus falls very short of the wizard in this aspect.

2. Maybe I want to be locked into a more martial style, that's the beauty of choices and archetype, you can ratchet the class's style to taste. If you have a problem with this over the bladebound, you must really hate the Kensai, Myrmidach, and Skirinir archetypes.

3. And why does everyone consider every class but the Fighter, "feat-starved"? You're not supposed to be able to grab the whole pie, just a decent slice of it.

Scarab Sages

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
Rerednaw wrote:
Losing/delaying a magus arcana in exchange for Hexes didn't seem like a horrific loss, but then I haven't played a magus (though I've been in parties with them).

Hexcrafter actually loses nothing in the long run except Improved Spell Recall (as that is not replaced by the archetype the Hexcrafter gets regular Spell Recall at level 11) and in return gets a bunch of extra powerful options he can take. Nothing about the archetype innately delays Magus Arcana progression.

And that is why Hexcrafter is awesome.

Not quite true. Other then giving up early access to spell recall it also forces the Magus to give up several Arcana he would have taken if he hadn't spent those arcana slots on hexes. This is not necessarily a bad thing but it is an opportunity cost that you have to absorb.

Not terrible but can be unpleasant to let some of those options go in a feat-starved class.

This is a valid point, but I tend to take Extra Arcana feats to pick up the other Arcana or Hexes I might otherwise get. Of course, you then are loosing out on feats, but an Arcana/Hex is generally worth more than a feat anyway.


I don't hear Rangers, Cavaliers, Gunslingers, Inquisitors, Oracles, Sorcerers, Monks, Rogues, or Wizards get called feat starved so I don't think it is everyone but the Fighter. Barbarian, Paladin, Magus, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Witch, Alchemist and Summoner just don't get bonus feats and many of them want to take the feat extra whatever multiple times to boot.

Dark Archive

LazarX wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

Three: The enhancement bonus of Black Blade is set by you level and is lower than what your would get if you had standard WBL allocated to a magic weapon. Depending on your game, this can be good because you have a guaranteed magic weapon, but in a standard game, it's weaker than having a normal magic weapon.

My real issue with it is this is an archetype that takes away choices and options from the player all to save you a little cash which is the easiest most abundant resource in the game.
All taking this archetype does is save you a little cash up front in exchange for flexibility and power later in the game.

Add to that it really does lock you into a more martial style of play as opposed to magical. You are effectively trading your ability to bend reality over your knee and beat it to your whim for a hunk of pig iron that's a little easier to swing but acts like a stuck up girlfriend if you try to do what it doesn't think you should.
It's not a rationale trade.

1.Most normal campaigns you're going to find that "bend reality over your knee and beat it to your whim" doesn't quite work out that way in practise. Even the straight magus falls very short of the wizard in this aspect.

And taking an archetype that makes you fall any further behind is a good thing?

Quote:
2. Maybe I want to be locked into a more martial style, that's the beauty of choices and archetype, you can ratchet the class's style to taste. If you have a problem with this over the bladebound, you must really hate the Kensai, Myrmidach, and Skirinir archetypes.

And that's entirely your CHOICE, this archetype takes that choice away from you at a very expensive cost.

Those 3 archetypes are not on my favorite list but they are nowhere near as expensive a choice as the Bladebound (though the Skirnir is close).

Quote:

3. And why does everyone consider every class but the Fighter, "feat-starved"? You're not supposed to be able to grab the whole pie, just a decent slice of it.

It's not about grabbing the whole pie, it's strictly that what slices of the pie it CAN take most of those are usually reserved to the same pieces over and over again.

Sczarni

Jon Otaguro 428 wrote:
It's not a terrible archtype. However, it does limit how you can enchant your weapon - for instance you can't have an agile black blade weapon. This sort of pigeon holes you into dervish dancing or strength builds.

?

Dervish dancing accomplishes what you're trying to accomplish with the Agile property.

What weapon that can receive the Agile property is so superior to the Scimitar that this is a "Pigeon Hole"?


Imbicatus wrote:
voska66 wrote:
Where does it say you can't enchant the black blade. It seem to me that you could add anything but enhancement bonuses. I'd consider it +5 weapon right from the start as it is a +5 only you don't have access to the full enhancement bonus as it depends on your level. So if you want to a special abilities you could as +6 or higher weapon. That's just how I read it.

This FAQ does.

FAQ wrote:

Magus, Black Blade: Can I use Craft Magic Arms and Armor to increase my blade's enhancement bonus?

No, nor can you use that feat to add other properties (such as flaming) to the black blade. You can use your arcane pool to temporarily add abilities to your black blade.

That explains it. I typically don't go to the FAQ for thing I see as possible. I only go there if I actually have question, for this I didn't. Now if it was in an errata I'd have that.


Jon Otaguro 428 wrote:
It's not a terrible archtype. However, it does limit how you can enchant your weapon - for instance you can't have an agile black blade weapon. This sort of pigeon holes you into dervish dancing or strength builds.

But with Tiger Style: you can have a Blackblade fist/body.

One of the only ways besides magic items to have a +X unarmed strike.

And yes, this means you can have your cake and eat it too if you buy an amulet of Mighty Fists.

Scarab Sages

Starbuck_II wrote:
Jon Otaguro 428 wrote:
It's not a terrible archtype. However, it does limit how you can enchant your weapon - for instance you can't have an agile black blade weapon. This sort of pigeon holes you into dervish dancing or strength builds.

But with Tiger Style: you can have a Blackblade fist/body.

One of the only ways besides magic items to have a +X unarmed strike.

And yes, this means you can have your cake and eat it too if you buy an amulet of Mighty Fists.

First of all, this makes no sense from logistics view, unless you pretend it's a Hand of Vecna and lop yours off first.

Even then it doesn't work, as the black blade must be a one-hand slashing weapon, a rapier, or a sword cane. Unarmed strikes are light weapons. It doesn't work.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I saw that post in the other thread but let it go as I didn't want to get side tracked, so thanks for making this thread.

*cracks knuckles*

First off, dispelling a myth right now - A blackblade is right on track in terms of magical enhancements by the WBL chart.

Level 9 - 46,000 gp
A +3 weapon is worth 18k, or roughly 39% of this, more than the recommended 25% of wealth on any single item. So you save thousands of gold on a weapon, and the amount is not something to gloss over.

Well what else do you get?

Major benefits:
Alertness (I hear perception is good)
The ability to ignore DR
More damage on demand

Minor Benefits:
Telepathy - less 'useful', but I imagine it could have an effect if you were blinded (blind is definitely something that most enemies use in PFS) and clever players may have good uses for it.

Teleport Blade: Never be without your weapon, no matter what.

Ignoring everything over level 12 for the moment, we can go further if people really want to.

Is there really that many useful low level arcana? What is so reality bending? Arcane Accuracy is nice I guess, but that is still a martial effect. Hexcrafter/Bladebound does have a harder time with this since they want hexes and arcana.

So what happens is your level 3 arcana is basically locked into damage instead of whatever else you may choose. Oh, you also can't get extra arcana until level 7. I probably wouldn't want to anyway unless playing a hexcrafter.

Speaking of Arcana - at 12th level the difference of the arcane pool between bladebound and normal is 2 arcana, made up for by a feat if the loss is really that bad. And let us not forget the Blade itself has an arcane pool for it's own abilities, which is 3 at this level.

Is Blackblade more martial? Yeah, a bit, due to locking in a couple choices instead of having flexibility. Hey that almost sounds like what an archetype would do? Crazy huh?

If you really want to do martial mix Kensai with Bladebound. Now that would be a martial Magus.

Quote:
This is a valid point, but I tend to take Extra Arcana feats to pick up the other Arcana or Hexes I might otherwise get. Of course, you then are loosing out on feats, but an Arcana/Hex is generally worth more than a feat anyway.

I want to see these amazing reality bending arcana that you can pick up at levels 3 and 5.

I don't get the hate for Bladebound. I really don't.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I just want to make a bladebound klar user one day just for the imagery and the perfect lead-in to it becoming intelligent.

Scarab Sages

Wand Wielder. The ability to spell combat with a wand of true strike is incredibly powerful at third level. Also Familiar, Pool Strike, Close Combat, Maneuver Mastery. This isn't even bringing up Hexes that a Hexcrafter can get.

Low level is when these Arcana are best, and they are useful through all levels.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
Rerednaw wrote:
Losing/delaying a magus arcana in exchange for Hexes didn't seem like a horrific loss, but then I haven't played a magus (though I've been in parties with them).

Hexcrafter actually loses nothing in the long run except Improved Spell Recall (as that is not replaced by the archetype the Hexcrafter gets regular Spell Recall at level 11) and in return gets a bunch of extra powerful options he can take. Nothing about the archetype innately delays Magus Arcana progression.

And that is why Hexcrafter is awesome.

Not quite true. Other then giving up early access to spell recall it also forces the Magus to give up several Arcana he would have taken if he hadn't spent those arcana slots on hexes. This is not necessarily a bad thing but it is an opportunity cost that you have to absorb.

Not terrible but can be unpleasant to let some of those options go in a feat-starved class.

The archetype forces nothing on you except the early access to Spell Recall loss; It does not say "you must take this hex instead of the arcana you want" like some archetypes in other classes tend to do. All it does is give you more awesome options. I don't see "oh man I can't fit all these awesome things into my build because there are too many of them to choose from now D:" to be a downside of the archetype.


I like the blackblade, if only for flavour reasons. I'm playing one right now. My GM got bored playing the intelligent item pretty fast (since I rarely stray from my alignement) so I get to play it myself. I like it.


Imbicatus wrote:
Starbuck_II wrote:
Jon Otaguro 428 wrote:
It's not a terrible archtype. However, it does limit how you can enchant your weapon - for instance you can't have an agile black blade weapon. This sort of pigeon holes you into dervish dancing or strength builds.

But with Tiger Style: you can have a Blackblade fist/body.

One of the only ways besides magic items to have a +X unarmed strike.

And yes, this means you can have your cake and eat it too if you buy an amulet of Mighty Fists.

First of all, this makes no sense from logistics view, unless you pretend it's a Hand of Vecna and lop yours off first.

Even then it doesn't work, as the black blade must be a one-hand slashing weapon, a rapier, or a sword cane. Unarmed strikes are light weapons. It doesn't work.

Has there been a FAQ that sets down that they meant one handed as in one hand, not one handed as in category?

Because I haven't seen it.


Bladebound is a fantastic archetype if you want your blade to be a defining element of both roleplay and combat. Its not a 'must pick' archetype, but I think it actually is just a little bit better than a straight magus.

Quote:

Three: The enhancement bonus of Black Blade is set by you level and is lower than what your would get if you had standard WBL allocated to a magic weapon. Depending on your game, this can be good because you have a guaranteed magic weapon, but in a standard game, it's weaker than having a normal magic weapon.

My real issue with it is this is an archetype that takes away choices and options from the player all to save you a little cash which is the easiest most abundant resource in the game.
All taking this archetype does is save you a little cash up front in exchange for flexibility and power later in the game.

Add to that it really does lock you into a more martial style of play as opposed to magical. You are effectively trading your ability to bend reality over your knee and beat it to your whim for a hunk of pig iron that's a little easier to swing but acts like a stuck up girlfriend if you try to do what it doesn't think you should.
It's not a rationale trade.

The Black Blade, based on just its enhancement alone, is worth a big fraction of wealth all the way from 3-9th level (5th level is just ridiculous - its an 8k blade at 10.5k WBL). Above that the enhancement becomes a reasonable investment, so we have to weigh its special abilities against what a normal WBL weapon would be. I find the Black Blade to be significantly superior: unbreakable, alertness, energy atunement, and teleportation are just plain fantastic abilities. Unfortunately I think Transfer Arcana and Spell Defense are duds, but the Life Drinker is spectacular for anyone who reaches the highest levels.

Also, any increase over WBL is a big deal. The "extra" money that the archetype grants is incredibly flexible - it gives the character an edge wherever its needed.

Quote:
...Add to that it really does lock you into a more martial style of play as opposed to magical. You are effectively trading your ability to bend reality over your knee and beat it to your whim for...

I disagree. You lose 1 arcana, weak ones that can be taken later, and a couple of arcane pool points - two feats is hardly trading in your arcane power. You still have full spells per level and full spell recall, unlike most of the Archetypes. Heck, you don't have to spend WBL on a sword, so you can better afford items to make you a better caster! Being able to afford a Ring of Arcane Mastery a level or two earlier or really any of the other mid level caster drool items it just amazing.

Also, thinking that Bladebound takes away choices and options is just ridiculous. The archetype has no effect until level 3 so is completely nonbinding until then! Its basically when you turn 3rd level, the existence of the archetype is another option. If you want it, you take, it, if you don't you don't. The blade itself is your third level arcana choice.

Imbicitus wrote:

Wand Wielder. The ability to spell combat with a wand of true strike is incredibly powerful at third level. Also Familiar, Pool Strike, Close Combat, Maneuver Mastery. This isn't even bringing up Hexes that a Hexcrafter can get.

Low level is when these Arcana are best, and they are useful through all levels.

Wand Wielder is a good choice and a strong arcana, but I don't think the others are any loss at this level. Wands are a little pricy at 3rd level, but true striking at 3rd whenever you want is pretty good. This and arcane accuracy are to me the biggest arguments against going Bladebound.


It seems to me that it's later levels that the archetype falls short. It gets +4 2 levels later than someone purchasing their sword normally (assuming ~ 1/2 wealth on a weapon) and +5 5 levels later. After that it never gets higher bonuses than +5.

So, at 17 a normal magus is swinging around a +5 keen/ holy/ flaming burst, while the bladebound magus is swinging a +5 weapon that can talk to him as his class feature.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rylar wrote:

It seems to me that it's later levels that the archetype falls short. It gets +4 2 levels later than someone purchasing their sword normally (assuming ~ 1/2 wealth on a weapon) and +5 5 levels later. After that it never gets higher bonuses than +5.

So, at 17 a normal magus is swinging around a +5 keen/ holy/ flaming burst, while the bladebound magus is swinging a +5 weapon that can talk to him as his class feature.

It's a +5 weapon that has some neat tricks of it's own, and can take on any property you grant with your Arcane Pool, as your +5/+5 weapon doesn't have room for anything else.


Rylar wrote:

It seems to me that it's later levels that the archetype falls short. It gets +4 2 levels later than someone purchasing their sword normally (assuming ~ 1/2 wealth on a weapon) and +5 5 levels later. After that it never gets higher bonuses than +5.

So, at 17 a normal magus is swinging around a +5 keen/ holy/ flaming burst, while the bladebound magus is swinging a +5 weapon that can talk to him as his class feature.

Except you can still enchant your weapon with your Arcane Pool, and with the money you've saved by not purchasing a weapon normally, you should have plenty of magic items (such as pearls of power) to make up for your somewhat smaller pool. Especially since, at 13th, you can start draining the points your blade has in its own pool for yourself (it does require a Will save vs. its ego, though). Or you can have a wyroot club and a bag of rats like many other magi do already, and as long as you're not running out of points every battle, you'll be fine.

Silver Crusade

It's a brilliant archetype for PFS. You dont have to worry about it's power tapering-off at high levels, and it saves you a bunch of money. My bladebound kensai always has a ton of money to play with.


Rylar wrote:

It seems to me that it's later levels that the archetype falls short. It gets +4 2 levels later than someone purchasing their sword normally (assuming ~ 1/2 wealth on a weapon) and +5 5 levels later. After that it never gets higher bonuses than +5.

So, at 17 a normal magus is swinging around a +5 keen/ holy/ flaming burst, while the bladebound magus is swinging a +5 weapon that can talk to him as his class feature.

Realistically I don't see having a max cap of +5 base as being all that much of a downside (excluding builds that require exotic weapon properties), especially as one of the Magi signature moves is the ability to swift action to add whatever weapon properties you happen to need at the time. The extra abilities the black blade gets/bestows are also worth including in this calculation. Unbreakable, Alertness-giving, and can-teleport-to-you-from-a-mile-away have to count for something.


I played a dervish dancing blackblade magus, so I know that that is an optimized choice for magus.

However, there are people that want to use say a rapier or kukri and can't get agile if they play blackblade.

There are other enchantments such as courageous you can't get on a blackblade.

That's why I say it's not a terrible choice - it's a choice with benefits and drawbacks.

As far as hexcrafter - it gives up improved spell recall - which is very very good. Archtypes have tradeoffs.


LazarX wrote:
Rylar wrote:

It seems to me that it's later levels that the archetype falls short. It gets +4 2 levels later than someone purchasing their sword normally (assuming ~ 1/2 wealth on a weapon) and +5 5 levels later. After that it never gets higher bonuses than +5.

So, at 17 a normal magus is swinging around a +5 keen/ holy/ flaming burst, while the bladebound magus is swinging a +5 weapon that can talk to him as his class feature.

It's a +5 weapon that has some neat tricks of it's own, and can take on any property you grant with your Arcane Pool, as your +5/+5 weapon doesn't have room for anything else.

this is the main thing that people who think the blackblade falls short are missing in my eyes. its true that a normal magus can have a +10 weapon at level 20 and a blackblades is only +5, BUT a blackblades bonus is ALWAYS +5 enhancement, whereas a normal magus might have a +1 with +9 enchantments. now they cant do anything with one of their key class defining abilities and have also gimpped themselves on +hit and +damage.

granted that is entirely your right as a player to do so, but why waist so much money enchanting/enhancing a weapon beyond +5 total ever? you get +5 more for free with a class feature! any magus IMO who every has a +6 of higher weapon has failed to understand their class entirely. this isn't to say that i wont be carrying around a +1 cruel conductive ghost touch spell storing weapon, but i wouldn't ever add anything beyond that because everything else i can just add via arcane pool and not waist money on it. now i have the option of adding more enchantments like flaming if i need/want them, or i can add enhancement if i am having trouble hitting or bypassing DR. i've given myself options by being very limiting and selective about what i put on my weapon. having anything more then a +5 total on the weapon as any kind of magus just limits your options later. a blackblade is no different except that he doesnt get to choose what goes on it up to that +5, its all just enhancement, which isn't nessesarily great, but its free, so its still a great deal!


LazarX wrote:
Rylar wrote:

It seems to me that it's later levels that the archetype falls short. It gets +4 2 levels later than someone purchasing their sword normally (assuming ~ 1/2 wealth on a weapon) and +5 5 levels later. After that it never gets higher bonuses than +5.

So, at 17 a normal magus is swinging around a +5 keen/ holy/ flaming burst, while the bladebound magus is swinging a +5 weapon that can talk to him as his class feature.

It's a +5 weapon that has some neat tricks of it's own, and can take on any property you grant with your Arcane Pool, as your +5/+5 weapon doesn't have room for anything else.

this is the main thing that people who think the blackblade falls short are missing in my eyes. its true that a normal magus can have a +10 weapon at level 20 and a blackblades is only +5, BUT a blackblades bonus is ALWAYS +5 enhancement, whereas a normal magus might have a +1 with +9 enchantments. now they cant do anything with one of their key class defining abilities and have also gimpped themselves on +hit and +damage.

granted that is entirely your right as a player to do so, but why waist so much money enchanting/enhancing a weapon beyond +5 total ever? you get +5 more for free with a class feature! any magus IMO who every has a +6 of higher weapon has failed to understand their class entirely. this isn't to say that i wont be carrying around a +1 cruel conductive ghost touch spell storing weapon, but i wouldn't ever add anything beyond that because everything else i can just add via arcane pool and not waist money on it. now i have the option of adding more enchantments like flaming if i need/want them, or i can add enhancement if i am having trouble hitting or bypassing DR. i've given myself options by being very limiting and selective about what i put on my weapon. having anything more then a +5 total on the weapon as any kind of magus just limits your options later. a blackblade is no different except that he doesnt get to choose what goes on it up to that +5, its all just enhancement, which isn't necessarily great, but its free, so its still a great deal!


To paraphrase a few, the Bladebound gives you bonuses and some money at the cost of this weapon's enhancements and a limited arcane pool.

Whether or not this becomes a good option depends on a very simple principle - is the money you save a significant amount in your campaign?

The maximum wealth achievable by PFS is 185k and the theoretical maximum level around 15-ish. That's a +3 for 18k at 15. Add intangibles from class features and suboptimal wealth gained/leveling and you're looking at maaaybe 15, 20% of your total wealth.

It's not a huge benefit, but what if we changed wealth in non-PFS campaigns? Say, everyone has 0 gold and is naked. The Bladebound is suddenly overpowered. Or if everyone is fully equipped with stuff worth 500,000 gold... at that point there's no big difference.

So knowing how much relative cash you'd be getting would be the first step. The second step is forming a plan on how to spend that money, and you should have a very good plan.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The Vulture wrote:
Rylar wrote:

It seems to me that it's later levels that the archetype falls short. It gets +4 2 levels later than someone purchasing their sword normally (assuming ~ 1/2 wealth on a weapon) and +5 5 levels later. After that it never gets higher bonuses than +5.

So, at 17 a normal magus is swinging around a +5 keen/ holy/ flaming burst, while the bladebound magus is swinging a +5 weapon that can talk to him as his class feature.

Except you can still enchant your weapon with your Arcane Pool, and with the money you've saved by not purchasing a weapon normally, you should have plenty of magic items (such as pearls of power) to make up for your somewhat smaller pool. Especially since, at 13th, you can start draining the points your blade has in its own pool for yourself (it does require a Will save vs. its ego, though). Or you can have a wyroot club and a bag of rats like many other magi do already, and as long as you're not running out of points every battle, you'll be fine.

Actually if you've stuffed your weapon with +10 worth of enchantments, you're DONE. You simply can't do ANYTHING with it with Arcane Pool points at the time because you've hit the ceiling.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Katydid wrote:

To paraphrase a few, the Bladebound gives you bonuses and some money at the cost of this weapon's enchantment and a limited arcane pool.

Whether or not this becomes a good option depends on a very simple principle - is the money you save a significant amount in your campaign?

The maximum wealth achievable by PFS is 185k and the theoretical maximum around 15-ish. That's a +3 for 18k at 15. Add intangibles from class features and suboptimal wealth gained/leveling and you're looking at maaaybe 15, 20% of your total wealth.

It's not a huge benefit, but what if we changed wealth in non-PFS campagins? Say, everyone has 0 gold and is naked. The Bladebound is suddenly overpowered. Or if everyone is fully equipped with stuff worth 500,000 gold... at that point there's no big difference.

So knowing how much relative cash you'd be getting would be the first step. The second step is forming a plan on how to spend that money, and you should have a very good plan.

I think it's generally assumed in these discussions that you have standard wealth by level. House rules, and PFS is included in that, make things wonky. By 15th level, you actually have a +4 black blade; this is worth 32k, which is 13% of the standard WBL at 15th level of 240k. This doesn't sound like a lot, admittedly, until you start looking at what you can do with 32k gold. At 15th level, you'll be behind by 2 Arcane Pool points; two 1st level pearls of power and a second level pearl of power more than make up for the lack of points, and your cost savings on your weapon have barely been dented. Get a few more pearls, and you suddenly have even more to enchant your weapon with your Arcane Pool or use on your Arcana; you're suddenly ahead of the normal Magus's Arcane Pool, and you haven't even started sapping your blade's pool yet or gotten any other magic items with the 15-20k or so you still have left from not buying a weapon.

Or, again, you could just grab a wyroot club and a bag of rats, and suddenly your Arcane Pool size is mostly irrelevant because you recover it all after combat anyways.

*Edit*

LazarX wrote:
Actually if you've stuffed your weapon with +10 worth of enchantments, you're DONE. You simply can't do ANYTHING with it with Arcane Pool points at the time because you've hit the ceiling.

I think you're misreading me there -- I was talking in the case of the black blade, not a fully enchanted weapon for a normal Magus. The black blade can be enhanced with your Arcane Pool beyond its base enhancement.


This game have a lot of archetypes (options in general) that just sucks, Balckblade is not one of them.

Grand Lodge

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Katydid wrote:
So knowing how much relative cash you'd be getting would be the first step. The second step is forming a plan on how to spend that money, and you should have a very good plan.

If this is the way I'm supposed to be playing my characters, then I made a major mistake coming back to D20.

Despite the arguments I've made for the archetype, the one and only reason I chose to do so...was that it was a fun and cool thing to do, and it seemed rather timely when fate mysteriously delivered onto her a free Tien weapon feat.


Hold on. There's nothing wrong with playing by flavor. If you want to optimize, you plan and do math, but nobody ever said that was the end-all, cure-all. I would appreciate it if people didn't highlight only a single interpretation of what I've said.

The Vulture wrote:
I think it's generally assumed in these discussions that you have standard wealth by level. House rules, and PFS is included in that, make things wonky. By 15th level, you actually have a +4 black blade; this is worth 32k, which is 13% of the standard WBL at 15th level of 240k. This doesn't sound like a lot, admittedly, until you start looking at what you can do with 32k gold. At 15th level, you'll be behind by 2 Arcane Pool points; two 1st level pearls of power and a second level pearl of power more than make up for the lack of points, and your cost savings on your weapon have barely been dented. Get a few more pearls, and you suddenly have even more to enchant your weapon with your Arcane Pool or use on your Arcana; you're suddenly ahead of the normal Magus's Arcane Pool, and you haven't even started sapping your blade's pool yet or gotten any other magic items with the 15-20k or so you still have left from not buying a weapon.

The OP did state he was looking for something for PFS, but, true, standard WBL makes a better basis. And, good catch; I originally made the assumption on level 12 and didn't correct it to 13-15.

Using Pearls of Power is definitely a tried-and-true method, and that's just one thing to do with your wealth. An even more economic method would be to have someone craft what you need with your money - you've just doubled your cost efficiency.

I mean; of course the Blackblade is going to be weak if the player buys something silly; that almost goes without saying. But it's a valid option if you want items for a specific advantage and you're strapped for cash.


Katydid wrote:
The OP did state he was looking for something for PFS, but, true, standard WBL makes a better basis. And, good catch; I originally made the assumption on level 12 and didn't correct it to 13-15.

This is true. Though this just makes it an even larger portion of your overall wealth, meaning it'll have a larger impact on your character than normal WBL.

Katydid wrote:

Using Pearls of Power is definitely a tried-and-true method, and that's just one thing to do with your wealth. An even more economic method would be to have someone craft what you need with your money - you've just doubled your cost efficiency.

I mean; of course the Blackblade is going to be weak if the player buys something silly; that almost goes without saying. But it's a valid option if you want items for a specific advantage and you're strapped for cash.

I think...I think we're agreeing here; the black blade's monetary value can make up for the class ability cost, basically. I thought you were trying to say that it wasn't going to be that significant of an impact on your wealth.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
The Vulture wrote:
I think...I think we're agreeing here; the black blade's monetary value can make up for the class ability cost, basically. I thought you were trying to say that it wasn't going to be that significant of an impact on your wealth.

Ehh; well, I blame the badly worded "It's not a huge benefit." :P

Say archetype power (magus only) was axis Y and campaign wealth was X; what I think happens is that a Black Blade's curve would be logarithmic. Huge advantage in a low money campaign, but past a certain threshold that advantage grows a lot smaller.

Grand Lodge

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
I didn't mean to suggest it was hate worthy, sorry. My actual response was:
Quote:
Are you certain on bladebound? The blade doesn't upgrade as quickly as a normal magic weapon, and not getting an Arcana until sixth level really hurts.

I don't personally like it that much for a few reasons, but it can be good if you are in a low magic campaign.

One: It delays your arcana. In your other thread you were making a hexcrafter, and they need arcana for hexes and for normal arcana. You can't take an extra arcana feat until you have an arcana, so waiting until 6th level delays one of the main magus abilities.

Two: It reduces your Arcane pool. This is a needed resource and it hurts when it's missing.

Three: The enhancement bonus of Black Blade is set by you level and is lower than what your would get if you had standard WBL allocated to a magic weapon. Depending on your game, this can be good because you have a guaranteed magic weapon, but in a standard game, it's weaker than having a normal magic weapon.

Four: Intelligent items are a pain. Bickering with your blade is not my idea of fun, and I was never really a fan of Elric, so having a powered-down Strombringer isn't appealing.

I'm the one who expressed the hatred for this archetype but I agree one hundred percent with your statements here.

My real issue with it is this is an archetype that takes away choices and options from the player all to save you a little cash which is the easiest most abundant resource in the game.
All taking this archetype does is save you a little cash up front in exchange for flexibility and power later in the game.

Add to that it really does lock you into a more martial style of play as opposed to magical. You are effectively trading your ability to bend reality over your knee and beat it to your whim for a hunk of pig iron that's a little easier to swing but acts like a stuck up girlfriend if you try to do what it doesn't think you should.
It's not a rationale trade.

What choices and options does it take away? Bladebound Magi have access to the full Magus spell list. Bladebound Magi have a weapon that they can fully use their arcane pool points to empower. Bladebound Magi lose spell recall, but that can, easily, be covered by using Pearls of Power. Bladebound Magi have a lower personal arcane pool, but have access to a second arcane pool that they can draw off of, or use for additional abilities that a normal Magus does not have.

Unless something is stranger than I think it is, a Bladebound Magus has a base weapon that is close to the "normal" weapon enhancement of a martial character before they start adding enhancements to it from their arcane pool ability.

How many 5th level martial types are going to have a +3 keen weapon? Not to mention that they have more flesibility in their weapon than most martial types. After all, everything from their arcane pool point can be tailored for the current combat.

And, even though they start to get arcana late, they can still get mosty of them, including the ones that let them add ghost touch or bane to their weapon, as well.

Sure, you can't get agile, but you should know that going in, so you aren't going to miss something you knew you wouldn't have to begin with. And agile, IMO, is overrated. The best way to do more damage, obviously, is to do moah damage.

Then again, my kensai bladebound magus is str & int, not dex and int. Not a great AC, but no need to give up Power Attack, if he wants it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
kinevon wrote:

What choices and options does it take away? Bladebound Magi have access to the full Magus spell list. Bladebound Magi have a weapon that they can fully use their arcane pool points to empower. Bladebound Magi lose spell recall, but that can, easily, be covered by using Pearls of Power. Bladebound Magi have a lower personal arcane pool, but have access to a second arcane pool that they can draw off of, or use for additional abilities that a normal Magus does not have.

Unless something is stranger than I think it is, a Bladebound Magus has a base weapon that is close to the "normal" weapon enhancement of a martial character before they start adding enhancements to it from their arcane pool ability.

How many 5th level martial types are going to have a +3 keen weapon? Not to mention that they have more flesibility in their weapon than most martial types. After all, everything from their arcane pool point can be tailored for the current combat.

And, even though they start to get arcana late, they can still get mosty of them, including the ones that let them add ghost touch or bane to their weapon, as well.

Sure, you can't get agile, but you should know that going in, so you aren't going to miss something you knew you wouldn't have to begin with. And agile, IMO, is overrated. The best way to do more damage, obviously, is to do moah damage.

Then again, my kensai bladebound magus is str & int, not dex and int. Not a great AC, but no need to give up Power Attack, if he wants it.

Bladebound doesn't even cost you Spell Recall...it's the Kensai half of your build that did that.

Grand Lodge

Wu Nakitu wrote:
kinevon wrote:

What choices and options does it take away? Bladebound Magi have access to the full Magus spell list. Bladebound Magi have a weapon that they can fully use their arcane pool points to empower. Bladebound Magi lose spell recall, but that can, easily, be covered by using Pearls of Power. Bladebound Magi have a lower personal arcane pool, but have access to a second arcane pool that they can draw off of, or use for additional abilities that a normal Magus does not have.

Unless something is stranger than I think it is, a Bladebound Magus has a base weapon that is close to the "normal" weapon enhancement of a martial character before they start adding enhancements to it from their arcane pool ability.

How many 5th level martial types are going to have a +3 keen weapon? Not to mention that they have more flesibility in their weapon than most martial types. After all, everything from their arcane pool point can be tailored for the current combat.

And, even though they start to get arcana late, they can still get mosty of them, including the ones that let them add ghost touch or bane to their weapon, as well.

Sure, you can't get agile, but you should know that going in, so you aren't going to miss something you knew you wouldn't have to begin with. And agile, IMO, is overrated. The best way to do more damage, obviously, is to do moah damage.

Then again, my kensai bladebound magus is str & int, not dex and int. Not a great AC, but no need to give up Power Attack, if he wants it.

Bladebound doesn't even cost you Spell Recall...it's the Kensai half of your build that did that.

True, my confusion. All my Magi are Kensai....

Spoiler:
Crandall is a level 7 Magus (Bladebound, Kensai); Bruno is my Fighter (Lore Warden) 8, who just took a level of Magus (Kensai)...

Dark Archive

kinevon wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
I didn't mean to suggest it was hate worthy, sorry. My actual response was:
Quote:
Are you certain on bladebound? The blade doesn't upgrade as quickly as a normal magic weapon, and not getting an Arcana until sixth level really hurts.

I don't personally like it that much for a few reasons, but it can be good if you are in a low magic campaign.

One: It delays your arcana. In your other thread you were making a hexcrafter, and they need arcana for hexes and for normal arcana. You can't take an extra arcana feat until you have an arcana, so waiting until 6th level delays one of the main magus abilities.

Two: It reduces your Arcane pool. This is a needed resource and it hurts when it's missing.

Three: The enhancement bonus of Black Blade is set by you level and is lower than what your would get if you had standard WBL allocated to a magic weapon. Depending on your game, this can be good because you have a guaranteed magic weapon, but in a standard game, it's weaker than having a normal magic weapon.

Four: Intelligent items are a pain. Bickering with your blade is not my idea of fun, and I was never really a fan of Elric, so having a powered-down Strombringer isn't appealing.

I'm the one who expressed the hatred for this archetype but I agree one hundred percent with your statements here.

My real issue with it is this is an archetype that takes away choices and options from the player all to save you a little cash which is the easiest most abundant resource in the game.
All taking this archetype does is save you a little cash up front in exchange for flexibility and power later in the game.

Add to that it really does lock you into a more martial style of play as opposed to magical. You are effectively trading your ability to bend reality over your knee and beat it to your whim for a hunk of pig iron that's a little easier to swing but acts like a stuck up girlfriend if you try to do what it doesn't think you should.

...

The choices and options it takes away were laid out in the post above which you cutoff.

First, the main issues are it takes away the spell-storing enchant (and the Agile, cruel, Disruption, Holy, etc.) and any other possible enchant beyond the very limited list you get.

Second, it's an intelligent item that can (and will) fight you if you deviate from it's goal or your alignment and EVERY TIME you level it gets stronger and can get to the point where it gets harder to win a conflict with it.

Third, You are giving up all arcana for half your characters career. No arcana for that long is excessive.

These are the mechanical problems with using this archetype, the rest of the issues are with playstyle. I have always said that a Magus is a CASTER who can fight not a fighter who casts. This archetype pushes you towards being more of a fighter then caster by emphasizing that aspect of the class and I find that seriously sub-optimal.

Shadow Lodge

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


Not quite true. Other then giving up early access to spell recall it also forces the Magus to give up several Arcana he would have taken if he hadn't spent those arcana slots on hexes. This is not necessarily a bad thing but it is an opportunity cost that you have to absorb.
Not terrible but can be unpleasant to let some of those options go in a feat-starved class.

but now you need to weigh the value of hexes like ice tomb, evil eye misfortune + cackle, sleep hex, against magus arcanas that are, for lack of a better terms... garbage by comparison.

honestly i think hexcrafter is nothing but a boon to the magus class.

1 to 50 of 151 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Why is the Blackblade a terrible archetype for the Magus? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.