Non-dex Magus Defenses? (PFS)


Advice


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Strength-based, 20 point buy (for Society).
Levels 1-2.
12 dex.
Feats are Toughness.
Light armor (probably chain shirt). Assuming he gets a round to buff (which may not happen with the usual surprise ambush) Shield Spell. He is not going to be able to spend 2+ rounds buffing. Most combats are over in 1-3 rounds.

What else do you folks recommend? Fighting defensively is kind of a tough call since his to hit is already sub-par with his 2/3 BAB, especially with flurry of misses (a.k.a. Spell Combat). Or just drop spell combat and fight defensively, i.e. act more like a straight fighter for the first couple of levels?

He doesn't pick up Combat Expertise until 5th.
Or is a 15 AC (19 if he is allowed to shield spell) adequate?

The threads I've read always seem to assume that the Magus starts are level 5 or higher, when their builds go online. I was unable to find a reference on how to survive levels 1-3 without being dex-based.

The rest of his build for reference:

Magus
Half-Elf
Archetype1: Bladebound
Archetype2: Hexcrafter

ch va cs rc to
st 16 10 16
dx 12 02 12
cn 14 05 14
in 15 07 +2 17
ws 10 00
ch 07 -4 07

hp: 13

traits
Regional: Abendego Spellcaster: +2 concentration checks
Magical Lineage: Frostbite

alternate racial traits
ancestral arms: lose skill focus. gain EWP

feat
toughness
(racial) ewp: rhoka (this is more of a flavor choice, didn't want to be another dervish scimitar wielder)

leveling plan (subject to change)

L01 Arcane Pool (1/3 lvl +int), cantrips, spell combat
Feat: Toughness
L02 Spellstrike
L03 Feat: Blind-fighting
Magus Arcana: None (replaced by Black Blade)
L04 Lose Spell Recall, gain Hex(Flight)
L05 Feat: Rime Spell
Bonus Feat: Combat Expertise
L06 Magus Arcana: Hex (Slumber)
Bonus Magus Arcana: Arcane Accuracy
L07 Moonlight Stalker requires: Blind-fighting, Combat Expertise, Bluff 3 ranks
L09 Magus Arcana: Accurate Strike (2 pts, all melee atks as touch atks for 1 round)
Feat:
L10 Fighter Training
L11 Bonus Feat, Spell Recall
Feat: Improved Critical?
L12 Magus Arcana: Ice Tomb?
Bonus Magus Arcana: ???

Thanks in advance!

Edit: added chart showing expected max purchasing power (by fame)
Expect about 4-5 fame per level.
Fame // Max item value.
Under 5 0 gp
5 500 gp
9 1,500 gp
13 3,000 gp
18 5,250 gp
22 8,000 gp
27 11,750 gp
31 16,500 gp
36 23,000 gp
40 31,000 gp

Sczarni

Wand of Mirror Image is your biffle.

Scarab Sages

Are you certain on bladebound? The blade doesn't upgrade as quickly as a normal magic weapon, and not getting an Arcana until sixth level really hurts.


By level 5 you can use mirror image and blur, by level 7 displacement becomes available. Those are some pretty nice defensive spells to make you harder to hit, especially if you can get them in a wand. I also quite like Blink since it also halves damage from area attacks, but it's a double edged sword since your own attacks and spells also get a miss chance.


if defenses are what you are worried about, then dump hexcrafter for kensai. you'll lose the use of armor for a pretty big bump to AC via the archetype instead. its not a bad trade considering how good the archetype is anyway, plus it gives you more money to play around with for magic items instead of enchanting armor.

bracers of armor+amulet of natural armor+ ring of protection+Kensai canny defense=more AC than many monks.

Dark Archive

My Dwarf Magus also has a 12 Dex. He's 1 game shy of 12th, and he'll be one of the characters I take past retirement. I didn't want his Dex any higher since I want to give him Adamantine Full Plate at 13th.

He did a fine job of tanking with hit points and Mirror Image. At low levels I just two-handed my Waraxe and waded into melee. At higher levels my burst damage would eliminate foes before they could retaliate.

AC isn't all that useful at higher levels, either. By then it's all about the miss chance.

Dark Archive

This is society play where the best defense is a good offense.

First things first, why are you trying to build your CASTER character like a MELEE character.

As I've always said, a magus is CASTER who fights not a fighter who CASTS.
Hexcrafters are even more like this.
If you really want to up your survival chance spend your feats/traits/cash on making your magical abilities better and use that to either eliminate the target before it can hurt you, boost your mischance so they can't hit you or debuff them so they can't do anything.

Oh and at low levels use a Dwarven Longhammer as your weapon and truestrike as your go to spell. You'll hit almost as hard as a barbarian and never miss.
+20 to hit and ignoring concealment is better then an additional 1D6+1 from from frostbite or shocking grasp and with the higher base damage from the hammer it'll equal the damage from the spells and 2hding the Longhammer pushes your average damage higher then the spells can go (and the crit is MUCH better).
PLUS it's a reach weapon so you'll never need to worry about making a concentration check to use it.
Once your Blackblade (hate this archetype by the way, it's absolutely terrible) comes on line and your hexes start showing up THEN you switch to the 1hders and the various combat tricks you use them for but always remember.
Your weapon is there to deliver your spells, not the other way around.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Like many you've forgotten a couple of basic but important facts.

1. The magus has complete martial weapon proficiency, he's proficient with all martial weapons.

2. This includes bows.

3. At the very low levels, this gives you an option at ranged damage before your foe closes with you. With a bit of expenditure a composite mighty bow should be something you consider as part of your toolkit for the first few levels.

At first level, I hardly ever did spellcombat with my magus. If the combat started at range, I'd fire my bow until the enemy closed. would then switch to my blade and cast shield just as it started and basically would just do standard sword fighting until the battle ended.

Eventually the bow will see less and less use, but every now and then you'll have those fights where it comes in handy. Such as a certain fight I remember with a really huge hall and several annoying harpies. I used magic in that fight, but pretty much did as much damage with my arcane striked bow.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

@Math
So your advice is to Truestrike with an exotic reach weapon? I'll admit I didn't think about that.
So round 1: cast Truestrike. Round 2: Swing? And then repeat? And after 4 rounds and 2 swings...continue to fight at -4 to hit?
I don't see how that is much better could you explain?

I'm sorry you hate the archetypes, what other advice to improve their defense/offense?

@Lazar

I thought about a bow...but +1 to hit is pretty lackluster. He carries chakrams mainly for range. They add his strength and are one-handed to boot.

He also carries a bow as backup but by the time he's running into harpies...not sure if that's the best way to go offense-wise. As opposed to flying and engaging them in melee.

If offense is paramount then what would you change to increase his offensive output?

Dark Archive

I'd forgotten that by level 3 I had picked up the Wand Wielder Arcana and grabbed a Wand of True Strike. Doing Spell Combat with a Waraxe and +18 to-hit was fun.

Though I think I'll retrain it when I hit 12th, as it hasn't done much for me during these last few levels. The Wand only has a few charges left in it anyways =P


Someone here will hate this suggestion but you could pump all those Str points into Dex and take weapon finesse. Now you can hit easier and have much better AC, Reflex Saves, Initiative and it makes the bow a better option at low levels.

You should take Rime Spell at 1st level so your Frostbite fatigues and entangles. I suggest Enforcer also early on for Shaken too.

Retrain Weapon Finesse as soon as Arcane Accuracy comes online and have as much INT as you can muster to greatly improve your to hit chances and increase your Arcane Pool. Use a reach weapon.

-

Another option is to take one level of Witch as your 2nd level to double your spells/day - low level arcane spell failure really isn't anything to worry about.

Dark Archive

Rerednaw wrote:

@Math

So your advice is to Truestrike with an exotic reach weapon? I'll admit I didn't think about that.
So round 1: cast Truestrike. Round 2: Swing? And then repeat? And after 4 rounds and 2 swings...continue to fight at -4 to hit?
I don't see how that is much better could you explain?

I'm sorry you hate the archetypes, what other advice to improve their defense/offense?

@Lazar

I thought about a bow...but +1 to hit is pretty lackluster. He carries chakrams mainly for range. They add his strength and are one-handed to boot.

He also carries a bow as backup but by the time he's running into harpies...not sure if that's the best way to go offense-wise. As opposed to flying and engaging them in melee.

If offense is paramount then what would you change to increase his offensive output?

It's not quite intuitive so it's understandable you might miss it. This is strictly for low level games, the typical 2hd attack at first level will kill any average target in one hit and most fights are over in 2-3 rounds.

So with this tactic the fight starts, you cast true strike and move into position and wait. They will either move at you and provoke an AoO and eat that guaranteed 2hd hit and die or stop short and let you move in and kill them at the beginning of round two. This will be all you need to do for all of 1st level.
At 2nd level you get spellstrike allowing you to cast and attack every round so you always hit with the 2hd and there is no wasted round prepping. That level you'll cast true strike and move up to the BBEG and swing and if it's still alive at your 2nd round you'll just stand there and hit it again. With a decent strength score and the hardest hitting 2hder you can get (go for an oversize 2hder, you really don't care about the attack penalty, you have at least a +20 to hit on every attack to absorb that penalty). you will consistently be doing more damage then any spell you can cast.
At 3rd level you get your Black Blade and your first extra D6 from your spells so you can now dump the 2hder because the spell damage finally exceeds the 2hder damage.

As for the Defense option I personally recommend ignoring it at this level. The Magus at default is a burst class, go first and hit your target so hard it dies or panics and runs away. Low level fights tend to be resolved in 1-2 hits (oddly enough so do high level fights) so if you build your character to do such frightening amount of damage per hit you won't need to concern yourself with defense, everything will be dead before they can respond.
If you do decide to invest anything into defense then you'll run with Displacement plus Misfortune Hex with just an average amount of armor (mithril breastplate or so) and let that triple layer of protection handle it. If they can roll to hit your AC TWICE then they still have a 50/50 chance of missing you entirely. Anything more than that takes the risk out of it which is part of the fun.

My issue with the Black Blade is you give up so much for it and get back so little. Yes it is a free scaling magic weapon so it saves you cash but you give up the option of having spell-storing on your weapon, you lose all Arcana for half your PFS career and you take a BIG hit to your arcane pool which powers your best tricks. It's just a bad deal to me, especially on top of what hexcrafter makes you give up.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

@Math ap N

A few questions.
How does Spell Strike work with True Strike? I thought it was only with touch spells. It cannot be Spell Combat since that doesn't work with 2 hander weapons?
What did you mean by oversized 2-hander?

Frankly if I am close enough to set up AoO at 1st and casting I'm more in favor of Color Spray or such. Unconscious targets are much easier to hit. But for a single target niche situation I could see True Strike.

Shadow Lodge

Mathwei ap Nial wrote:
This is society play where the best defense is a good offense.

I've seen this go horrendously wrong, where an incredibly well-built offensive character who had very little defense wound up volunteering to be the main melee of the group, and then died in the first round and lead the group to a slow TPK. Offense is nice, but always have a good defense. For a magus, I've found Wand Wielder+Wand of Blur/Shield/etc. to be incredibly effective, letting you buff while attacking in the first round.


15 AC is fine as long as you play the character with a 17 int. Don't run ahead of the other frontliner into a double team. Buff yourself with shield (19 is a good AC at level 1) for tough fights.

True strike is not a good thing to build around unless you have a wand and take wand wielder at 3rd (its good then because activating a wand does not provoke an AOO, so you don't need a hard concentration check). Magus's have very few spells per day at low level just like normal casters and you're hitting pretty often anyways. Having 1 prepared is a good way to have a trick up your sleeve... but having shield is probably better if anything is going to target you. Grease is probably a better trick anyways.

Using a two handed reach weapon is good advise for levels 1 and 2. You can't spell combat with it, but spell combat sucks until about level 4 anyways.

Are you set on moonlight stalker? Its a cool ability but really situational and is taking 3 feats. Blind fighting is ok (worse for you than a fighter), but combat expertise is terrible. At level 5 spells are a better defense and won't cripple your offense.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rerednaw wrote:


@Lazar

I thought about a bow...but +1 to hit is pretty lackluster. He carries chakrams mainly for range. They add his strength and are one-handed to boot.

He also carries a bow as backup but by the time he's running into harpies...not sure if that's the best way to go offense-wise. As opposed to flying and engaging them in melee.

If offense is paramount then what would you change to increase his offensive output?

For the harpie situation I had dealt with. The Bow was the better choice. Because it meant that I had shots at them before they had shots at me. or could try charming me for that matter.

It also meant not blowing 3rd level spells at the first encounter of the scenario.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Thaago wrote:

15 AC is fine as long as you play the character with a 17 int. Don't run ahead of the other frontliner into a double team. Buff yourself with shield (19 is a good AC at level 1) for tough fights.

...

Are you set on moonlight stalker? Its a cool ability but really situational and is taking 3 feats. Blind fighting is ok (worse for you than a fighter), but combat expertise is terrible. At level 5 spells are a better defense and won't cripple your offense.

Moonlight Stalker is 3 feats for an effective +2/+2...one I cast Blur (or if I ever get enough for a cloak of displacement.) A nice passive bump to offense when I spend 1 round buffing before combat.

What feats would you take instead? I thought about something like Arcane Strike...but that's a swift so it wouldn't work well with many magus Arcana.


Well, extra arcane pool is really nice and weapon focus at 3rd level is nice also. Intensify spell is usually a go to, but you're going for more controly spells so probably don't need it. For my Magus I spent the 7th level feat on extra arcana: spell blending for 2 2cd level spells.

Moonlight Stalker is a little better than I first thought though now that you've mentioned the blur combo. Does mirror image also give concealment, or is it just a miss chance? I like mirror image better than blur myself.

Silver Crusade

Rerednaw wrote:

@Math ap N

A few questions.
How does Spell Strike work with True Strike? I thought it was only with touch spells. It cannot be Spell Combat since that doesn't work with 2 hander weapons?
What did you mean by oversized 2-hander?

Frankly if I am close enough to set up AoO at 1st and casting I'm more in favor of Color Spray or such. Unconscious targets are much easier to hit. But for a single target niche situation I could see True Strike.

He illustrates taking two turns. One turn to cast the spell and take position.

The second turn you hit with +20.
Repeat.

At level 2 you get Spell Combat, not level 1, so it's a good L1 tactic.

The benefit is that you don't risk knocking out your team mates, there are no saves, and +20 leaves you with only a 5%(rolling a 1) chance of not dealing crippling damage.


ErrantPursuit wrote:
Rerednaw wrote:

@Math ap N

A few questions.
How does Spell Strike work with True Strike? I thought it was only with touch spells. It cannot be Spell Combat since that doesn't work with 2 hander weapons?
What did you mean by oversized 2-hander?

Frankly if I am close enough to set up AoO at 1st and casting I'm more in favor of Color Spray or such. Unconscious targets are much easier to hit. But for a single target niche situation I could see True Strike.

He illustrates taking two turns. One turn to cast the spell and take position.

The second turn you hit with +20.
Repeat.

At level 2 you get Spell Combat, not level 1, so it's a good L1 tactic.

The benefit is that you don't risk knocking out your team mates, there are no saves, and +20 leaves you with only a 5%(rolling a 1) chance of not dealing crippling damage.

A neat trick to be sure, but 2 round for 1 hit isn't that great. Great for a combat maneuver, but you might eat an AOO unless you're using a reach weapon. And... only repeat once. Only 2 first level spells at level 1.

Also, spell combat is level 1, spell strike is level 2.

Silver Crusade

Thaago wrote:

A neat trick to be sure, but 2 round for 1 hit isn't that great. Great for a combat maneuver, but you might eat an AOO unless you're using a reach weapon. And... only repeat once. Only 2 first level spells at level 1.

Also, spell combat is level 1, spell strike is level 2.

Ugh, now I'm mixing them up. >.<

You can use wands to cast the spell and pad out your casting, or scrolls. Both are cheap (You can get a wand for 2 prestige if it's a level 1 spell).

The point of taking two turns was to force the enemy to either take your AoO or hit later and it's pretty easy to negotiate. In the end you can guarantee as much as anyone that you are effective on your turn.


What would you use spell blending to get? I was considering resistance energy and create pit but maybe by level 8 the pit might be a little too late as monsters start flying more often around then. What would you pick?


Why would your DM finish combat in 3 rounds? I'd say they're not challenging you enough - that's like, 18 seconds in real life?

Spell Blending is nice, but if you don't mind being a Samsaran with the Mystic Past Life alternative racial feature, you could grab a few free defensive spells from the Summoner spell list, such as Barkskin (level 2), Haste (level 2 instead of Magus level 3) and Stoneskin (level 3 instead of Magus level 4).

As a magus, your advantage comes from your magic. Using a wand of Shield on yourself before a fight would give you an automatic +4 AC. Casting Barkskin gives a scaling bonus that enhances your current NA, and Stoneskin a way to mitigate your low HD. No need to explain Haste.

As a caster you don't want to be taken by surprise; if every combat instance happens that way then you have a bad DM. If you had someone scouting ahead, for example, or if you gathered good information on where the enemy is hiding you can make the right preparations, and that's where your character design can shine.


I find PFS to allow an almost unreasonable amount of time to prebuff. Maybe... 1 in 20 encounters it seems like are the type where you get ambushed while walking in the "please place yourselves on these squares on the map and roll initiative" way. The rest are small 3-5 room dungeons, often fairly linear, that practically beg you to prebuff.

Even if you do eventually get a wand of mirror image or blur or whatnot I wouldnt neglect your ac. The look on a players face when he is used to relying on those spells and the monster is unaffected is priceless.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I should add, by 6th level, you are still in light armor...is it worth to take the ASF hit and pick up a mithral breastplate? At 4200 that is over a quarter of your total wealth. If you didn't go bladebound and have say a +2 weapon, that is another 8,000 right there.

A wand of Mirror Image is 4,500 and you are now over wealth cap.

Staying back is just as risky as dashing in.

You have 3+1 4 2nd level spells per day...do you fill them with defense? I'd prefer having some kind of offense (Glitterdust is still useful) or a multi-buff spell (Alter Self).

Assuming that I still have that wand of Shield...my AC is still 10+4(armor)+4(shield spell)+1 (dx)... which is a bit behind the curve now, even for a dash in skrimisher. A dex build would be around 23...better but still worrisome I feel.

Looking for options. Drop the magic weapon, go with a +1 weapon and stock up on another wand 4,500 or lots of potions at 300 each?

What did you magus players do? :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rerednaw wrote:

I should add, by 6th level, you are still in light armor...is it worth to take the ASF hit and pick up a mithral breastplate? At 4200 that is over a quarter of your total wealth. If you didn't go bladebound and have say a +2 weapon, that is another 8,000 right there.

A wand of Mirror Image is 4,500 and you are now over wealth cap.

Staying back is just as risky as dashing in.

You have 3+1 4 2nd level spells per day...do you fill them with defense? I'd prefer having some kind of offense (Glitterdust is still useful) or a multi-buff spell (Alter Self).

Assuming that I still have that wand of Shield...my AC is still 10+4(armor)+4(shield spell)+1 (dx)... which is a bit behind the curve now, even for a dash in skrimisher. A dex build would be around 23...better but still worrisome I feel.

Looking for options. Drop the magic weapon, go with a +1 weapon and stock up on another wand 4,500 or lots of potions at 300 each?

What did you magus players do? :)

Has someone who's made it to 8th level so far in PFS as my Magus, I went out of the usual messageboard box. I did have the advantage of a PFS boon that gave me a Tien weapon proficiency so I took Katana and went bladebound at 3rd level.

Now as far as my unorthodox approaches.

I got myself a str-adjusted composite bow. And I took Arcane Strike as my first level feat. (as you might guess, she's not a dex magus) In the early levels I would use it for ranged, whenever possible. I'd usually get in a couple of hits this way without using any spell resources. Then I'd pop a memorised shield spell and go melee on mooks and use spell combat on tough opponents. When I got to 2nd level spells, I'd use Ablative Armor to soften the impact of the damage I took (plus it actually makes healing spells a good deal more effective). I use mirror image to deny hits, and some of the standard spells, shocking grasp, lightning to deal damage. I also occasionally make use of things such as magic missile to deal damage to incorporeals.

I use my Arcane Pool mainly to recall spells like Shield and Mirror Image after they've been used. and sometimes to keen my blade if I think it's needed. The Black Blade has it's own special pool to make use of as well.

My main strategy is a conservative use of resources to pull my weight in an adventuring party, and I rarely ever go into Nova mode. I also prepare my spells with a view as to what my party has. If no one else has the spell available, I'll load a haste as boosting everyone is more effective than one offensive spell. If I'm not using spellcombat that round, I'll two hand the Katana. And I'll always be arcane striking.

The little bits add up. Pay attention to the little bits.


stuart haffenden wrote:
What would you use spell blending to get? I was considering resistance energy and create pit but maybe by level 8 the pit might be a little too late as monsters start flying more often around then. What would you pick?

I grabbed Command Undead for an an NPC I put together. It gave me an excuse to have a couple of bloody skeleton giant goons along with him.

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