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Hey all, about to do CoT, and wanted to make sure that I understand the governmental structure correctly in Westcrown / Cheliax, and how these groups can play into CoT AP.
As I see it, there are five main sources of power in Westcrown.
The Mayor's office: responsible for fostering order via the dottari, maintenance of city infrastructure, and taxation. The Mayor is appointed by the Chelish Queen.
The Order of the Rack: The House Thrune's private, out of band enforcer group, separate from both mundane police force/local law enforcement and imperial law enforcement. Reports directly into House Thrune. Are given complete leeway by the Queen to to whatever the @#$^$ they want within the borders of Cheliax, provided that they obey the Measure, the Chain, and the Disciplines.
The Church of Asmodeus : the legal system of the country, responsible for the laws of Cheliax (the Asmodean Disciplines). Broken out into two main branches: the Inquisitors, the secret police of Cheliax, who create and development informants throughout the country, and the Prelates, or judges, usually clerics of Asmodeus, responsible for making judgements on criminal and civil cases.
The Nobility: Although they have no formal place in the government system, their members do "populate the bureaucracy and fill out vacancies in the Church" (Cheliax, 7).
The Council of Thieves: Shadowy, mythical bunch of rogues, pulling the purse strings and coffers behind the scenes.
And now, some questions.
1) Are any of my statements above incorrect?
2) Is Cheliax a theocracy, defined as (Wikipedia) "[a] form of government in which a god or deity is recognized as the state's supreme civil ruler, or in a higher sense, a form of government in which a state is governed by immediate divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided." While Asmodeus isn't the supreme ruler of Cheliax -- Queen Abrogial the Second is -- she certainly can be seen to be "divinely guided." Or is it instead an absolute monarchy, "[W]here the monarch exercises ultimate governing authority as head of state and head of government, thus wielding political power over the sovereign state and its subject peoples"?
3) Are the dottari part of local municipal government, or are they part of the Church of Asmodeus? In the CoT AP 1 it clearly states that the Mayor "controls the Dottari" (pg 50), but in Cheliax : Empire of Devils it lumps the dottari between the Inquisitors and the Prelates (pg 5).
4) Speaking of the prelates, what is the formal name of this branch of the Church? They are not formally named in the Cheliax : Empire of Devils book, so I've taken to calling them the Prelates, after Alaster Wolfstongue, Senior Prelate of Kintargo, and scourge of the Devil's Perch (pg 5).
5) Does the Church have an official place of power (courthouse) in Westcrown? In AP 1, I cannot find one listed. If not, where do criminal and civil trials take place in Westcrown, and who administers them (i.e., does the Mayor's Office appointment judges in Westcrown)? It would appear natural for Thrune to make sure that the Church had plenty of influence -- both Inquisitors in secret, and Prelates in public -- in the city. "The Church controls access to the Queen ... its clergy staff various portions of government bureaucracy, control the courts, and help to create the laws that come before the queen for her approval" (Cheliax, 7).
6) Speaking of Inquisitors, it appears that the Inquisitors have zero AP presence in the CoT AP. Did I miss a reference somewhere? I'm guessing there are some really interesting places where an agent could be inserted (as a sleeper agent in the Council rooting out the true nature of crime in the city, or someone investigating the Children of Westcrown, or someone keeping tabs on the Mayor, etc).
7) Does anyone else see a heavily Italian influence in this AP? Westcrown itself is a city of canals, and feels quite Venecian or Roman; a lawful evil/theocratic/noble government running things -- almost as if the Catholic Church (a potentially LE organization in real life -- flamebait, sorry); a shadowy, mafia-like criminal group in the background pulling strings; the names of things themselves sounds Italian -- the "Condottari", the "Regidottari", names like "Parego", "Vira", etc. Designers, was this intentional?
Thanks in advance!
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I would say Absolute Monarchy with trappings of a Theocracy personally by what I have read but thats just a guess.
I think Cheliax was influenced by Italy some. You got the opera, Westcrown and some of the other stuff you named.
Should be a interesting topic to keep a eye on when some of the paizo peeps in all their marshmellowy goodness chime in.
2) Is Cheliax a theocracy, defined as (Wikipedia) "[a] form of government in which a god or deity is recognized as the state's supreme civil ruler, or in a higher sense, a form of government in which a state is governed by immediate divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided." While Asmodeus isn't the supreme ruler of Cheliax -- Queen Abrogial the Second...
I guess, you'd stare into the fiendish mouth of a totalitarian, fascistic government localized in a pseudo roman/german/Victorian country.
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Westcrown is considered something of a backwater. Practically no one there has enough clout to cause much trouble (at least, that's how Thrune sees it). So there isnt that much of an inquisitorial presence.
plus, no one said that all these organizations are particularly competent. Trune might keep the country running, but basic infrastructure beyond grand works (for ego-stroking) and roads (to move armies and goods) is kind of left to rot.
The Church of Asmodeus is the State Religion, not the ruler of the country. The rulers are'nt clerics, they're more along the lines of Wizards (conjurors). Or, people who employ conjurors.
If you've ever played a Conjuror on tabletop, you'll find that your attitude towards outsiders, such as demons, devils, and gods, becomes alot less awed and servile, and more like an employer dealing with an employee.
Creative Director
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1) Are any of my statements above incorrect?
You've got most of the things right for the government... except for one. The Hellknights are NOT affiliated with the House of Thrune at all. The Hellknights are a self-governed mercenary band. They're analogous to our "military contractors" we've got in the real world; they might be used by the government, but they have their own agendas and are not funded or controlled by the government. Their own codes are VERY compatible with the House of Thrune, for the most part, but in some cases they clash, which you'll see happening later in Council of Thieves.
2) Is Cheliax a theocracy?
No. Cheliax is a monarchy, ruled by a Queen and her house. The leaders of Cheliax aren't necessarily devil worshipers, although they are devil admirers. The House of Thrune admires Hell's efficiency and structure, and uses it as inspiration for their own government. At the same time, they see devils as excellent tools to further their own power; the infernal engine described in "The Infernal Syndrome" is a GREAT example of how the Chelish government thinks of devils as tools. The House of Thrune is arrogant and, some would say, foolish in this belief that they're better than devils and that they have the upper hand in their control over devils. They certainly are GOOD at manipulating and controlling devils. They don't worship devils, though; many of Thrune's members would see worshiping devils as a sign of weakness, in fact. "You don't worship your tools or the help, you use them and gain power; if anything, they should worship YOU!" The Church of Asmodeus obviously DOES worship devils though, and the House of Thrune uses them as the state religion. This is a complex relationship, with both groups of the opinion that they're subtly using the other and are actually the ones in control. Both may be right. In any event, as far as Asmodeus is concerned, the House of Thrune is doing PRECISELY the job he wants them to do. Even if they're doing it without worshiping him, in fact, that kind of makes it even better for Asmodeus, who enjoys seeing mortals delude themselves into thinking they know what they're doing.
3) Are the dottari part of local municipal government, or are they part of the Church of Asmodeus? In the CoT AP 1 it clearly states that the Mayor "controls the Dottari" (pg 50), but in Cheliax : Empire of Devils it lumps the dottari between the Inquisitors and the Prelates (pg 5).
The dottari are part of Westcrown's local government, controlled by the Mayor (and thus, indirectly, by the House of Thrune). The church of Asmodeus actually doesn't have a very strong role in Westcrown; they have a presence, but their resources and attention are generally focused in the nation's capital city and in other, "healthier" Chelish cities like Coryntyn. Lumping them between Inquisitors and Prelates is kind of a clumsy way of saying where the dottari's power lies, I guess.
4) Speaking of the prelates, what is the formal name of this branch of the Church? They are not formally named in the Cheliax : Empire of Devils book, so I've taken to calling them the Prelates, after Alaster Wolfstongue, Senior Prelate of Kintargo, and scourge of the Devil's Perch (pg 5).
Prelate works fine. Although Pathfinder #29 has a big article about Asmodeus, and I believe (but I can't remember for sure) there's more information about this branch of the church in there.
5) Does the Church have an official place of power (courthouse) in Westcrown? In AP 1, I cannot find one listed. If not, where do criminal and civil trials take place in Westcrown, and who administers them (i.e., does the Mayor's Office appointment judges in Westcrown)? It would appear natural for Thrune to make sure that the Church had plenty of influence -- both Inquisitors in secret, and Prelates in public -- in the city. "The Church controls access to the Queen ... its clergy staff various portions of government bureaucracy, control the courts, and help to create the laws that come before the queen for her approval" (Cheliax, 7).
There's a temple of Asmodeus in Westcrown, in the southern portion of the city. Check the Wescrown article in "Bastards of Erebus." Criminal trials are held there; in "Sixfold Trial," you get to see just such a trial play out (although in the form of a play rather than a REAL trial.) There's no "scheduled" trials or anything like that in "Council of Thieves," so this aspect and location is relatively underplayed during the course of the adventure. Remember, Westcrown IS sort of a backwater, and the House of Thrune doesn't really pay much attention to it. Until the last adventure in the AP, that is, when the PCs are in a race against time to get things settled and under control before Thrune's forces show up.
6) Speaking of Inquisitors, it appears that the Inquisitors have zero AP presence in the CoT AP. Did I miss a reference somewhere? I'm guessing there are some really interesting places where an agent could be inserted (as a sleeper agent in the Council rooting out the true nature of crime in the city, or someone investigating the Children of Westcrown, or someone keeping tabs on the Mayor, etc).
Correct; again, Westcrown's a backwater, and Asmodeus's church has interests elsewhere. This is partially at Asmodeus's own manipulation, of course; by steering his church away from having a big presence in Westcrown, he lets his subordinate Arch Devil Mammon do his thing there. Having his own church take on a large role in Westcrown would not only spread their resources too thin throughout Cheliax, but would also complicate Asmodeus's plans (via Mammon). He knows better than to use too many different tools on a single problem. From a gameplay standpoint, there's already enough power struggles and groups active in the adventure; adding in the church of Asmodeus runs the risk of overwhelming things on that front.
7) Does anyone else see a heavily Italian influence in this AP? Westcrown itself is a city of canals, and feels quite Venecian or Roman; a lawful evil/theocratic/noble government running things -- almost as if the Catholic Church (a potentially LE organization in real life -- flamebait, sorry); a shadowy, mafia-like criminal group in the background pulling strings; the names of things themselves sounds Italian -- the "Condottari", the "Regidottari", names like "Parego", "Vira", etc. Designers, was this intentional?
Cheliax has long felt like Rome to us at Paizo. And in an attempt to make the place feel like a different nation than other places like Varisia and Katapesh, we absolutely intentionally used Italian names for lots of the elements in the adventure. In fact, it goes deeper than that; the subplot of the Mother of Flies and the presence of three creepy and unusual "houses" (Aberian's Folly in PF 26, Delvehaven in PF 27, and Walcourt in PF 29) is very much inspired by the Three Mothers trilogy (Susperia, Inferno, and Mother of Tears) by the Italian director Dario Argento. There's also a fair amount of monsters in this AP's bestiaries that are taken from Mediterranean or Italian myths. We generally draw upon real-world inspirations like this to help us give a region its own feel and tenor; not everywhere should sound the same, after all!
Specifically, Wes has used Venice as a source of inspiration for Westcrown. I used a list of 16th-century names (drawn from historical records in Venice) as a source of names for Bastards, fiddling with them a bit so they were a little more fantasy and not 100% historical.
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Awesome information, thank you!
My take-away is that the House of Thrune isn't doing a bang up job managing the administrivia of the country. In one of the APs (can't recall which one) it states that Westrcrown is the biggest shipping port in the country -- that's got to be a lot of cheddar that's being nibbled on by certain ... roguish mice. (is anyone other than me using Scasi Bolvona, durotas of the condotarri, as a corrupt extension of the CoT?) even if its a backwater, it must be a lucrative one, and the fact that house thrune doesn't have a cadre of Inquisitors investigating port crime indicates that they don't have their act completely together. (or simply don't care to.)
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Creative Director
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Awesome information, thank you!
My take-away is that the House of Thrune isn't doing a bang up job managing the administrivia of the country. In one of the APs (can't recall which one) it states that Westrcrown is the biggest shipping port in the country -- that's got to be a lot of cheddar that's being nibbled on by certain ... roguish mice. (is anyone other than me using Scasi Bolvona, durotas of the condotarri, as a corrupt extension of the CoT?) even if its a backwater, it must be a lucrative one, and the fact that house thrune doesn't have a cadre of Inquisitors investigating port crime indicates that they don't have their act completely together. (or simply don't care to.)
Biggest port doesn't always equate to busiest port, nor does it indicate most important. A lot of Westcrown's prot is in decay. I'd actually say Coryntyn is the most important/busiest one, since it controls passage to and from the Inner Sea.
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I effin love this whole AP. Westcrown. AP Plot. Hellknight. This is just freakin amazing. I've never had so much fun being a DM. What a wonderful AP. This is perhaps the height of gaming as I have experienced it so far (about 20 years' worth of gaming... since about 1988...)
I used to be a Realms fan but disliked what they've done with it, so jumped ship here... never been so glad to jump ship as I am now. The Golarion setting is being unraveled in a very precise, tight manner. Each compartment is filled to the brim with goodness AND organized in a way that MATTERS to gamers (I love details, as long as they are RELEVANT details, and need not supplements upon supplements to show me how field mice interact with the local monster ecosystems, if you get my drift).
Nice job guys!
