How do you kill an overpowered evil Monk?


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Lantern Lodge

So in a campaign I play in, one of the Big Bads is a Dwarven monk with Steel Soul and crazy high saves. With high wisdom, high dexterity and bracers of armor he has really, really high AC and nice CMD too. He can use Fly on himself and favors tactics like swooping down, flurrying and getting AoOs. He has some levels in Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager / Hurler) and often trips our martial characters. The character appears to have some racial variant that affords him spell resistance we cannot dispel.

The character seems really overpowered. Since he took out my character last time, I want to build a real munchkin character geared at just absolutely crushing this monk.

One idea I have is trying to use stone-shape to create foot manacles and trap the monk. The DM has decked this villain out with permanency of haste, longstrider, heroism and enlarge person. I am not sure how to plan to kill this villain, because he has crazy high defenses, can grab arrows, moves insanely fast and can drop even our party Barbarian pretty quickly.

Silver Crusade

one, monks can't take barbarian levels... unless martial artist, how can he fly? sounds really really cheeky to me. imo its a GM power trip to make monks OP.

Lantern Lodge

rorek55 wrote:
one, monks can't take barbarian levels... unless martial artist, how can he fly? sounds really really cheeky to me. imo its a GM power trip to make monks OP.

The NPC is an ex-monk that betrayed his order. Begrudgingly I admit he is right... ex-monks technically keep all their abilities :/ The villain's main mook is some sorceress that we assume is supplying him with these potions. The levels in Barbarian are probably being used for superstition and elemental totems, as well as some DR from Invuln Rager, and for Drunken Brute. I suspect the villain is perfectly legitimate from a mechanic point of view.

I just wonder how one can build an even more cheesed out monk killer. Like some PC that spends his entire life hunting down monks and killing them :-P


Level? Wealth? Point buy (and how much)?

I suggest (even though he has a good CMD) a lockdown Tetori build crossed with druid (for huge wildshape). Unless he has a ring of freedom of movement, you're good. Does he have permanent freedom of movement too?

prototype00

Scarab Sages

Multiple Dispel Magic/Greater Dispel castings will kill those buffs.

Arcane Archer with an antimagic field arrow. Shoot the arrow at him, and when he snatches it, good by permanent buffs and any supernatural abilities.

I don't know your level, but if you have any way to get access to 9th level spells, mages disjunction will neuter him in one go.


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rorek55 wrote:
one, monks can't take barbarian levels... unless martial artist, how can he fly? sounds really really cheeky to me. imo its a GM power trip to make monks OP.

Or he houseruled that out because that rule is dumb.


Summon air elementals and have them play tag with him via whirlwind?
Level up?
Throw up walls to block his movement and/or trap him?
Having more info would be helpful, for sure.

Silver Crusade

go paladin, he is evil, so smite works on him ;)


Play a crit-magus, get a moderate use-magic-device bonus. Travel to a major city. Buy a scroll of wish and a scroll of time stop. Wish that upon utterance of the word "Skifferskaffdoodleheimzinger", for the following 24 hours, all your spells that are subject to spell resistance, will overcome the spell resistance of any person you target with them.

Find the monk, say "Skifferskaffdoodleheimzinger" as a free action, use your scroll of time stop. Cast dimensional anchor to prevent the monk from escaping, then nuke his defenses with dispel magic. Enter melee and destroy him. Start out by using your frigid touch to stagger him for 1 round or 1 minutes, depending on crits. Proceed to annihilate him with a billion damage from intensified shocking grasp crits.

-Nearyn


The Spell Resistance is from being a dwarf.

Magic Resistant: Some of the older dwarven clans are particularly resistant to magic. Dwarves with this racial trait gain spell resistance equal to 5 + their character level. This resistance can be lowered for 1 round as a standard action. Dwarves with this racial trait take a –2 penalty on all concentration checks made in relation to arcane spells. This racial trait replaces hardy.


He couldn't have Steel Soul and the racial variant spell resistance on the Dwarf.

Other than that, it seems legit. GM might be on a power trip.


It sounds like you're at least 7th level. From what I skimmed, if you want to be annoying just to this character make a build around Magic Missile and watch your DM puzzle-face or start making up crap like he has an at-will shield SP. I think with the right traits and feats you can be doing an automatic 25 damage a round. If you're 9th I think you can get to 37 a round. Not s~@$ he can do other than start making up gear or powers you haven't listed.

Scarab Sages

He is a monk, if he is core he could have SR from monk levels.

Silver Crusade

MattR1986 wrote:

It sounds like you're at least 7th level. From what I skimmed, if you want to be annoying just to this character make a build around Magic Missile and watch your DM puzzle-face or start making up crap like he has an at-will shield SP. I think with the right traits and feats you can be doing an automatic 25 damage a round. If you're 9th I think you can get to 37 a round. Not s@%# he can do other than start making up gear or powers you haven't listed.

the monk suddenly acquires the brooch that absorbs 151 damage from magic missile, from the core books.


Cleric of Desna
Travel and Freedom
Enable others to beat the stuffing out of him by giving them freedom of movement and air walk (Communal). Or freedom and heroism (if something will get you that... moment of greatness + swift heroism aura)

When someone closes in, hit him with Terrible remorse so he gets at least 1 round staggered (he'll make the save, but it sill hampers)

Then summon Large+ elementals to crowd around him.


You'd still have to deal with SR, but I think if you went Elf you'd get a bonus against it, not to mention some magic feats for that.

And ya if he suddenly comes strolling down the street with his new "item of no magc missile for you!" then you know something is up.


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Powerful monks are pretty common and pretty hard to defeat. I suggest a variant on darkwarriorkarg's terrible remorse strategy--the best way to beat him is to direct him to the forums. There, people will erroneously tell him that he is worthless and weak in every way for being a monk, until eventually he is overwhelmed with despair and takes his own life. Then you come in and grab the loot. No other method is as safe and foolproof as this one.


bob_the_monster wrote:

So in a campaign I play in, one of the Big Bads is a Dwarven monk with Steel Soul and crazy high saves. With high wisdom, high dexterity and bracers of armor he has really, really high AC and nice CMD too. He can use Fly on himself and favors tactics like swooping down, flurrying and getting AoOs. He has some levels in Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager / Hurler) and often trips our martial characters. The character appears to have some racial variant that affords him spell resistance we cannot dispel.

The character seems really overpowered. Since he took out my character last time, I want to build a real munchkin character geared at just absolutely crushing this monk.

One idea I have is trying to use stone-shape to create foot manacles and trap the monk. The DM has decked this villain out with permanency of haste, longstrider, heroism and enlarge person. I am not sure how to plan to kill this villain, because he has crazy high defenses, can grab arrows, moves insanely fast and can drop even our party Barbarian pretty quickly.

What level are you? Some of the things you describe (spell resistance AND Steel Soul) cannot be taken together, others are flat out disallowed (permanent haste). My guess is you will be able to kill this monk when the GM decides it is time for him to die.


Ah, I just remembered, two clerics of shizuru and a barbarian with a scythe.

Both touch (hopefully his touch AC isn't as high) him with their Gentle Rest Repose domain ability (he is staggered *no save* and then asleep *no save*), then the barbarian CDGs him with the scythe. Guaranteed to kill anything from lvl 1. :)

prototype00


He flies? Feint and then throw a net.

Lantern Lodge

darkwarriorkarg wrote:

Cleric of Desna

Travel and Freedom
Enable others to beat the stuffing out of him by giving them freedom of movement and air walk (Communal). Or freedom and heroism (if something will get you that... moment of greatness + swift heroism aura)

When someone closes in, hit him with Terrible remorse so he gets at least 1 round staggered (he'll make the save, but it sill hampers)

Then summon Large+ elementals to crowd around him.

Problem with the second part is his AC is really high. We've pin-pointed it at above 45, somehow :-/ I suspect the DM has given the monk access to stat manuals or something crazy to get his AC this high.

The monk does have access to Shield. Magic missiles have thus far failed to do anything.. To put it lightly, yeah the DM is majorly power tripping.

cmastah wrote:
He flies? Feint and then throw a net.

We tried that. He set the net on fire with elemental something or other... Meh. If we summon stuff the monk will use his insane Acrobatics to move around with impunity and take no AoOs.

Lantern Lodge

I'm surprised, boards.

Why has no one said "You kill an 'overpowered evil monk' with a 'regular-powered anything else'" yet?

You could go Oracle. Ill Omen + Misfortune + Any Save or Suck spell.

Zen Archer/Gunslinger? He can only deflect one ranged attack per round.

Paladin bypasses his DR with Smite and has high enough BAB plus bonuses to hit from Smite and Bonded Weaponry.

Cavalier would be similar? Get a charge lane, turn him to paste.


Use a net, drop a portable hole over him, then stuff him in a bag of holding?

Scarab Sages

Forcecage followed by Cloudkill should do the trick.


Jayson MF Kip wrote:

I'm surprised, boards.

Why has no one said "You kill an 'overpowered evil monk' with a 'regular-powered anything else'" yet?

You could go Oracle. Ill Omen + Misfortune + Any Save or Suck spell.

Zen Archer/Gunslinger? He can only deflect one ranged attack per round.

Paladin bypasses his DR with Smite and has high enough BAB plus bonuses to hit from Smite and Bonded Weaponry.

Cavalier would be similar? Get a charge lane, turn him to paste.

With enough spells and magic items backing him up, a commoner could trump all of those choices, unfortunately.

High AC kind of nixes choice 2, 3 and 4. Choice 1 is blocked by good enough saves.

prototype00


Well, given the high level abilities (multiple permanencies frex) its clear that the monk is pretty high level. You still have not answered what level you are. If the monk is sufficiently higher level than you, then the issue seems to be (as pointed out above) that either the GM is on a power trip and/or you'll kill him when the GM decides its time to.

Lantern Lodge

Then isn't this a case of "Ignore him for now while we level up?"

Don't try and fight him when he's 10 levels (either via actual leveling or by leveled gear) higher than you?

Scarab Sages

He is a monk, so going after touch AC isn't that great as it's probably only a couple points lower at most.


Of course, another tactic might be to plane shift your group to nirvana when he shows up. he can't attack when he's not there.

(mind you, this tactic has it's own issues...)

Lantern Lodge

Jayson MF Kip wrote:

I'm surprised, boards.

Why has no one said "You kill an 'overpowered evil monk' with a 'regular-powered anything else'" yet?

You could go Oracle. Ill Omen + Misfortune + Any Save or Suck spell.

Zen Archer/Gunslinger? He can only deflect one ranged attack per round.

Paladin bypasses his DR with Smite and has high enough BAB plus bonuses to hit from Smite and Bonded Weaponry.

Cavalier would be similar? Get a charge lane, turn him to paste.

He has high SR and insanely high will save. Plus his mook just dispels any debuffs we do manager to throw on him. DM outlawed witches and summoners in this campaign setting. Gunslinger is an interesting idea, though the monk often employs some mirror image trick and displacement effects through mooks.

I suppose if we could stagger him for one round with Terrible Remorse, we could try to grapple and pin him. Monks seems to lose a *lot* of their AC once they are immobilized.


prototype00 wrote:
Jayson MF Kip wrote:

I'm surprised, boards.

Why has no one said "You kill an 'overpowered evil monk' with a 'regular-powered anything else'" yet?

You could go Oracle. Ill Omen + Misfortune + Any Save or Suck spell.

Zen Archer/Gunslinger? He can only deflect one ranged attack per round.

Paladin bypasses his DR with Smite and has high enough BAB plus bonuses to hit from Smite and Bonded Weaponry.

Cavalier would be similar? Get a charge lane, turn him to paste.

With enough spells and magic items backing him up, a commoner could trump all of those choices, unfortunately.

High AC kind of nixes choice 2, 3 and 4. Choice 1 is blocked by good enough saves.

prototype00

Ill Omen: No save, forces target to reroll some d20s and keep the lowest.

Misfortune: Only familiar with the Witch Hex of the same name, but assuming it's identical, forces target to reroll some d20s and keep the lowest.
Noticing any pattern? Now, he has to roll 4 saves and take the lowest against your SoS of choice.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

It sounds like a vast majority of his power is coming from magical boosts.

A raging barbarian inside an Anti-Magic shell sounds like just the thing. Combine with Strength surge, and you'll have the monk pinned in no time.

Then have the rogue SA him to death in one round.

Remember that the biggest problem with the monk is he also has Medium BAB and no special bonuses to hit.

Start increasing your own AC and you'll watch the monk's effectiveness drop like a rock. A low AC raging barbarian is a fine target. A high AC raging barbarian with a shield+5 and +5 Nat Ac and +5 Dodge bonus? Might as well not be there for all the whiffing the monk will do.

But yeah, go after his buffs and mook casters. Monks have high defenses, it is what they are. Go after his offensive power.

==Aelryinth


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Sneak Attacking him to death is no fun.

If you're going through all that trouble, might as well pick up Body Bludgeon as well and beat his minion to death with him. Continue by attacking the ground with his body. =)

Be The Hulk.

*SMASH SMASH SMASH SMASH SMASH*

"Puny Monk."

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Hey, now, no griping about the killing power of Sneak Attack! This is a monk thread!

===Aelryinth


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It honestly sounds like everything you do he has an answer for. If you want to be passive aggressive follow the following steps

1) before the game make plans
2) Do the magic missile build I suggested
3) Make sure to completely tank Constitution and not put favored in it so you'll have very low HP
4) As soon as the fight with the monk starts, prepare magic missile and put your hand in your mouth and pull the trigger.
5) Get your stuff and walk out while the DM sits there very confused.
6) Enjoy your night doing something fun

Silver Crusade

WHAT LEVEL ARE YOU!

need to know this... 45 AC is the level 15+ territory for monks, (near 18 for most others)


Ask him, straight up, face to face, if this is intended to be an enemy you can actually defeat, or if it's one of those 'introducing a bad guy to be defeated in several levels' things.

In character, you could always draw the conclusion that this guy is unbeatable, and wander off to do other things.


Yeah, I would ignore the monk and kill/destroy everything else. Use summons/terrain/items to keep him busy and start mucking around with everything dear to him. He has friends, kill them. He has allies, kill them too. He has mooks, they die first.


How does he fly and flurry? (As in, spend a move action then flurry)

Gunslinger to target his Touch AC will help negate the Bracers.

Come and Get Me with a Dex build Barbarian.

True Strike potions.

Maximized Magic Missile.

Any spells that cause winds greater than 35 mph.

Mirror Image and Blink.

Nets!

True Strike + Pilfering Hand!

Aid Another.

There's lots of ways to whittle down his seemingly insurmountable AC and saves and flying and such.

Sovereign Court

Kill off his main buffer-minion first? Then hide the corpse and allow for some time to let the buffs wear off?


I agree with the majority here, especially talking to the GM. If he's going story over sandbox, this monk probably has unbeatable plot armor, as well as killing him derailing the planned end game. They also just might not realize how irritating massively overpowered NPCs are

Otherwise target his caster allies first, and introduce him to (greater) dispel magic or disjunction or antimagic once his support base is weakened. See if GM allows using maximize and/or empower on the dispel checks to auto-win them.

Dust of Sneezing and Choking is generally a win button against anyone.

Shadow Lodge

Two bullets at a time.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Imbicatus wrote:
He is a monk, so going after touch AC isn't that great as it's probably only a couple points lower at most.

If any part of his AC is from bracers of armor +8, then his touch AC is lower than his full AC by at least that amount.


Well given that he's just cheesing you could always just leave and ignore anything he says about the monk. Teleport out to another section of the world if you have to or plane shift and just do it every time he tries to bring up his pet character until he gives up or rage quits the campaign. It would amuse me to see that.

If you actually want to play his game the answer would be Fighter, Zen, or Paladin Archers who will eviscerate him unless you guys are 10 levels or 150 thousand+ gold behind him in which case refer to option A and wait for him to give up.

Lantern Lodge

New idea. High level caster. Wall of Thorns. Summon elementite swarms and try to force him to drown. While he's dealing with the swarms (auto damage, no save), he is slowed down and unable to fly around. Then stone shape manacle his feet to the ground. Throw out no save spells like Acid Fog. I wonder if there are rules for offensive use of stone shape?

Dark Archive

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I find this thread amusing because everybody is just now pretending that because it is a monk, that it. Now cannot do or be good at one of the few things the ass excels at doing...being unkillable. The next best class (rival even) is a paladin. Every monk thread or tank thread comes down to people saying that 'intelligent enemies just ignore the monk because they will realize that they cannot hurt it or defeat it any time soon and they target the rest of the party because they CAN deadbeat those pc's much more quickly'.

But now that a monk is doing exactly what it is good at doing he's not allowed to without it being a gm on a power trip? Seriously?

For starters, monks can get unfairly high ac and touch ac. We all know this. Many characters who are not monks can get very good and very high ac. So let's be at least somewhat rational and assume a very possible reality- the party is not going to be able to rely on melee or ranged attacks hitting to deal damage without being clever or thinking outside of the box.

The monk fly's and has spell resistance. This means that melee is almost entirely a moot point (my 8th level monk was similar against melee monsters). So now we are looking at ranged attacks and magic. Ranged attacks have the benefit of being able to net you a full attack and piling lots of damage certain attacks if they land. The issue here is that deflect arrows will stop this and it comes down to tricking the monk into deflecting a normal shot and then shootig him with a powered up shot that breaks through. Haste helps the party here. But since monks can heal- if he were by himself, he could just fly away, heal that damage and return in a round. Of course this gives the party a breather.

If we use magic against him, then yes, it should be understood that it is a losing battle on that front. A large number of spells will be resisted and an overwhelming number successfully saved against. Anything reflex related is likely a waste of time.

This means that a concerted effort and a good plan are your best bets. He can't resist every spell or make every save but he will make too many of them. This is exactly what monks are good at doing...surviving and slowly draining your resources. In any fight against a standard monk it should be expected for it to be long and drawn out. No, in general the monk won't annihilate anyone in a single hit, every hit. All threads on the subject clearly point that out. But they also admit that the monk will do measurable damage over time and wear anything down.

In fact, the second chief weakness of the monk class is one I disagree with: their ability to penetrate damage reduction effectively.

If this weakness is actually true and one you believe in, capitalize on it and get into your next fight against him with plenty of it.

Lastly, this monk is a villain and has some measure of optimization. It won't be easy.
And because he has levels of barbarian and can rage, he can do some of the offensive things a pure top end martial could do and do them well. This makes him even more dangerous because he chose barbarian and has access to many of the powerful, cheap things a barbarian player would.

So just imagine someone on these forums said, 'help me make a pc monk barbarian capable of surviving anything by level x, and who can also do at least one or two offensive things very well'.

You all know you could do it it come up with something incredibly crazy. Stop assuming the gm is cheating or intentionally increasing the power (he might be) just because the class mentioned is a monk, please. They can't be useless and bad at everything after it has been admitted that they are good at a few things.

Ps. Using non-combat options are a good choice as well. Diplomacy, intimidation, bluff...these skills used against the right people or groups at the right time in the right way can net you valuable allies, make him powerful enemies and ultimately lead to you defeating him in a myriad of ways. I would not discount that a battle can be faught in more ways than those that start with rolling initiative.


Show me 4 PCs of various classes all of which have DR and I'll believe you DI.

Besides that there's the FACT that the GM is in fact cheating (since he's moving and flurrying in the same round, as well as double stacking racial options which can't be taken together) sure it's the GM's perrogative to cheat if he wants to but it's the players option to leave giving him the soft ball version of just refusing to play his encounter is the nice way of showing you're not really happy with the way he's running things.

Besides that what is strong for a PC is not at all similar to what is strong for an NPC enemy. A great many options are infinitely more powerful in the hands of a GM who doesn't have to deal with maintaining a party after all if you kill his sidekicks he can just bring sidekick#2 who coincidentally has exactly the same stats abilities levels and gear of the original. Party members don't have that option.


A kitsune serpentine sorcerer enchanter can rack up huge save DCs. Dominate him. Then you have a super-monk on your side.

Silver Crusade

Dark Immortal wrote:
wisdom

Finally someone who understands monks.

While i will agree that it is cheap that he's using impossible racials the GM has every right to do so since....he's the GM and he's making a unique villain to challenge the players.

Seriously from the way this enemy is described it's like they're fight Raoh from HnK. So here are som ideas i have to fight him:

1) diplomacy or trickery. As a Dwarf and an obiously strong wariior he's bound to be quite prideful. Doubly so as an Evil character. either try to appeal to that pride or use it to manipulate him. Goad him, make him decide that it is better to slay you on the ground, and have a 1v1 duel between him and your best fighter. or perhaps you can shanghai him instead, while you distract him make him think he's winning when suddenly

BBEG: "Hah, you missed, that spell was certainly powerfull...but it would have never harmed me."

Mage: "kukukuku. Your Vanity blinds you. I wasn't aiming to hit you!"

BBEG: "What!"

*Cieling Crumbles, rocks fall and crush his sorceress*

Sorceress: "Masteeeeeeeer! HELP!" *dead*

Mage: "Now your winds have died. Next we shall clip your wings!"

2) Out monk him. KungFu must defeat Kungfu. either make a monk PC to counter him, or hire someone from his old monastery who wants him dead.
Vid related: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zum-OTgk9P0

3) Make your own flying death train. i'll leave that to you. While your Gladiators are fighting in the sky you take out the minions

Silver Crusade

Find a way to keep him busy for like 20 rounds and cast stone call on him every round

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