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I had to make a very difficult decision to let go of my pet and very dear friend last night, so I'm going to be taking a couple days away from the forums and the project just to regroup and get centered...My deepest sympathizes, Ssalarn.
-Kcinlive
Thanks, Kcinlive, it's appreciated. I'd had Mary for over 14 years since I rescued her as a kitten and the cancer was a very sudden and unexpected tribulation. By the time we knew anything was wrong other than her getting older we didn't have time to do anything about it. It's amazing how intrinsically intertwined with your day to day life a furry friend can become, and how much little things you take for granted can impact you when they're not there anymore. In a way, Mary was my first and biggest fan, since she spent as many hours reading the material from her spot on my lap as I've spent writing it, and coming back to this without her unspoken but very felt support is something I'm still adjusting to.
I too am sorry about your cat :(
But on the topic of the Armaments of the Conquerer, I generally recommend exercising caution. If it IS possible to get 17-20/x4, that should be reigned back quite a bit. Even if it takes most of your resources, that's a ton of damage. Like a falcata and a scythe merged together. Scary!
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I too am sorry about your cat :(
But on the topic of the Armaments of the Conquerer, I generally recommend exercising caution. If it IS possible to get 17-20/x4, that should be reigned back quite a bit. Even if it takes most of your resources, that's a ton of damage. Like a falcata and a scythe merged together. Scary!
One of the things I noted in the other thread while we were talking about this, is that the Daevic doesn't have as high a chance to hit with his primary attack since the Passions were scaled back, and Armory of the Conqueror can't be enchanted and doesn't stack with... anything, really.
I'd be interested in anyone who wants to take the time to do some builds with the Veil, but currently I think it puts the Daevic right around par for what any level equivalent character will be doing. And if any of the core classes acquire it through feats, it'll be sturdy, but they'll never have the Essence Capacity to boost it up as high the Daevic. So a pure Daevic could get it ramped up pretty nastily and hit that 17-20 x4 realm, but he's not adding weapon enhancements, static bonuses like Challenge, Smite, or Weapon Training, feats like Weapon Specialization, etc.
From my testing and review, I think the worst case scenario is that a 20th level Daevic actually has a reason to Vital Strike and can stay competitive while doing so. I don't think he's even going to be doing as much damage as Paladins, Cavaliers, Inquisitors, Magii, or Fighters during the bulk of play though.
I figure if our friends over at Giant in the Playground think it's too weak, and the Dreamscarred forums think it's too much, my estimations that it's just right are probably pretty close to the truth.
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Changelog:
Activating/dismissing Armory of the Conqueror is now a Full Round action. This helps avoid stepping on the toes of classes like the Soulknife for whom the action economy of summoning their magical weapons is actually integral to the class.
Armory of the Conqueror’s critical threat expansion clarified to not work with other effects that improve critical threat range, bringing it in line with other such effects.
Verbage added to Armory to clarify that it is a valid target for Sunder attempts. (This verbage will likely be removed when the full expanded ruleset for Veils is available)
Base damage die for Armory of the Conqueror no longer changes between light or two-handed, reverting back to an earlier iteration of the ability. Base damage die progression capped at 2d12.
Armory of the Conqueror now requires 4 points of Essence for each bump to the Critical multiplier.
Radius of Bangles of the Jealous Seductress changed to 5’ +5’ per point of Essence to match the standard for aura-based Veil effects.
Collar of Skilled Instruction base radius of effect reduced from 30 to 10 feet. Essence investment now increases radius of effect in addition to prior bonuses.
Essence of the Succubus changed to affect creatures who would be attracted to the wearer, rather than creatures of the opposite gender.
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For ease of reference, here's the Vizier and here's the Daevic. I know it's been a bit since those links were posted and it's probably best if we don't have to thread skim to find them :)
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Changelog:
Waistband of the Wealthy now grants bonuses to Appraise and Bluff rather than Bluff and Sense Motive.
Armbands of the Irked Elephant and Behemoth Hide Veils added to Daevic.
Deathchannel Ring and Pestilence Cloak Veils added to Vizier.
Essence Focus, Pistolero’s Bind, Treewalker, and Life Bond added to feats.
There's a few more feats that I'll be rolling out over the next day or two, and my goal is to have the Guru to you by Friday or Saturday. Special thanks to Anguish who provided the idea for the Irked Elephant and Pestilence Cloak Veils (as well as the ideas for what would become the Polar Snowshoes and Ditchdigger's Armlets).
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Changelog:
Chakra rules expanded to Chakra and Veils; Veil interactions with Sunder and Dispel effects expounded upon in playtest documents.
Daevic-
Wrath’s Natural armor bonus changed to +1 / 2 Essence
Bonus type to Bull Rush granted by Wrath changed to competence for consistency with existing mechanics.
Dominion bonus to-hit only applies to shields
Dominion bonus to Intimidate checks clarified to be a competence bonus.
Dominion bonus to saves vs. AOE effects now limited to Reflex saves.
Dominion deflection bonus now +1 / 2 Essence.
Dominion Blessing of Fervor ability now limited to 1+CHA times/day.
Small changes to Wrath’s to-hit bonus.
Wrath’s bonus to Bull Rush and Overrun reduced to 1 / Essence. Scaling vs. size increased from 1:1 ratio to 1:2.
Desire’s bonus to-hit now only works against creatures she has successfully performed a Steal or Feint maneuver against.
Desire’s 5th level ability now grants bonuses to Feint checks, and improves Feint’s action economy.
Desire’s 11th level Passion bond ability now useable 1 + Cha mod times/day
Minor grammar changes in the Chakra Binds ability.
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In addition to the Vizier and the Daevic, I now have the third class the Guru.
I'm having some issues with importing his Veil list, but please feel free to look over the base class and let me know what your thoughts and opinions are. I should have the Veil issue fixed and the full Veil list imported into the document before the end of the day.
Bam, them multiple posts in a row.
Ssalarn, have you considered editing links to the other two threads into the OP? It'd make it easier for the communities to talk to/about each other.
Can't edit a post more than an hour after posting on Paizo forums.
But...but why? Arg >.< They need to invest some cash in better-coded forums.
I recall, vaguely, when someone asked this before they said it was intentional, to prevent people changing what they said in old arguments and discussion or some such.
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Can't edit a post more than an hour after posting on Paizo forums.
This yo.
Believe me, I would love to be able to just keep one running Change log. You know what the only thing more annoying than saying something important and then having someone crowd you off the page before people get to read it is? When you're the one crowding yourself off the page.But keeping these Change Logs is important, so you do what you gotta do... I guess I could space out my releases more, but it's not fun having to come in after someone has taken the time to leave a thought-out and well constructed post addressing some issues they've found and let them know that they just wasted their time because I fixed those 3 days ago.
I really want you all to have accurate and timely information so that the feedback you give me is truly helpful to the project and we end up with the best possible result.
Speaking of which, since you guys crowded out my links to the materials, including the new Guru, you both owe me reviews :P
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But...but why? Arg >.< They need to invest some cash in better-coded forums.
Because they don't want people changing the past and this also allows for some optimizations of the backend database. See reddit a few years ago not allowing replies to comments a certain age old for performance reasons for an example of this.
You can edit some posts past the 2 hour limit though. Usually the original post in a thread can be edited for a long while. In my (probably too vast) experience, the length of a post correlates to if you can continue to edit it past the time. I've had posts I could edit weeks past when I submitted them.
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Formatting issues on the Guru have been addressed (I think), and Veils and feats are now added to his playtest document.
**Edit**
Changelog:
Vizier and Daevic-
Spiked Pauldrons changed to dealing damage to all grappled creatures, not just creatures who initiate a grapple.
Guru-
Wording clarifications made to Guru’s Gentle Touch to limit stacking.
Absorb Radiance now useable 1/day.
Guru’s Incandescent Strike limited to 2 x class level.
Minor adjustments made to Veil of Sins; various abilities clarified to require separate activation.
Reforge the Soul clarified to require a successful Atonement.
Blindness dealt by Luminosity now lasts 1d6 rounds.
Just finished reading through the Guru and I have to say it's a really neat class. I'm personally not a fan of the name, but it fits thematically.
Using temporary hit points as a resource is an interesting mechanic. I'm not sure how well it would play. Though that's what playtests are for. The Sineater wouldn't have a problem because they can hit someone and get more temp hit points. An Akasin could have a problem though. I could see a Guru running into some bad luck, getting hit, and running out of the resource. I almost wonder if they should be allowed to use real hit points as well? Though then you'd run into the problem if they used real hit point to heal themselves, thus getting more hit points and repeating. Maybe if they use real hit points they can't use it to heal themselves? Also, what if they get temp hit points from another source? Could those be used for their powers?
I love the concept of the Sineater philosophy. I love the idea of using your foe's wickedness against them. Though I almost wonder if there should be an alignment component to it. Say when fighting a good aligned foe it's less effective. When fighting an evil creature, it's more effective. Although I don't see many guru's fighting good aligned creatures. Just a thought.
One concern I have is that the Guru is supposed to be all about not killing. I don't know how this would mesh with traveling with a group of adventurers. I mean if the guru hits someone and does non-lethal damage, what's he going to think when the archer fills the same foe with arrows?
One thing that would be interesting to see would be a sort of “Anti-Guru”. The Guru is supposed to control their life energy and Incarna, manipulate it through their chakras, and channel it to use their powers. It would be interesting to see a version that instead channels “death energy” through their "anti-chakras". I could see them manipulating undeath, etc. Just an idea.
-Kcinlive
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Just finished reading through the Guru and I have to say it's a really neat class. I'm personally not a fan of the name, but it fits thematically.
Using temporary hit points as a resource is an interesting mechanic. I'm not sure how well it would play. Though that's what playtests are for. The Sineater wouldn't have a problem because they can hit someone and get more temp hit points. An Akasin could have a problem though. I could see a Guru running into some bad luck, getting hit, and running out of the resource. I almost wonder if they should be allowed to use real hit points as well? Though then you'd run into the problem if they used real hit point to heal themselves, thus getting more hit points and repeating. Maybe if they use real hit points they can't use it to heal themselves? Also, what if they get temp hit points from another source? Could those be used for their powers?
I love the concept of the Sineater philosophy. I love the idea of using your foe's wickedness against them. Though I almost wonder if there should be an alignment component to it. Say when fighting a good aligned foe it's less effective. When fighting an evil creature, it's more effective. Although I don't see many guru's fighting good aligned creatures. Just a thought.
One concern I have is that the Guru is supposed to be all about not killing. I don't know how this would mesh with traveling with a group of adventurers. I mean if the guru hits someone and does non-lethal damage, what's he going to think when the archer fills the same foe with arrows?
One thing that would be interesting to see would be a sort of “Anti-Guru”. The Guru is supposed to control their life energy and Incarna, manipulate it through their chakras, and channel it to use their powers. It would be interesting to see a version that instead channels “death energy” through their "anti-chakras". I could see them manipulating undeath, etc. Just an idea.
-Kcinlive
Thanks for the feedback!
I have to tell you, alignment was something I really struggled with when designing these classes. Alignment tends to be a very touchy subject, and I've seen it be both a wonderful tool for crafting a character, and a debilitating function that can unnecessarily hamstring a class or be used to justify any breadth of shenanigans. That's one of the reasons I went with alignement "suggestions" for the Daevic, and one of the reasons the Guru was set up the way he currently is; I wanted a class that contained a non-lethal element, but which didn't also have hard-coded codes of conduct and ethics that would make it hard for him to blend well with a party. Under the current set up, the Guru can contribute mechanically to a fight at the same rate and effectiveness as his adventuring peers, and there's a good chance that most of the bad guys will be alive at the end of the fight. What happens from there comes down to the morals of the party and the role play elements everyone wants to bring to the table. You could have a Sineater who feels that his spiritual job is done and now more secular concerns should ultimately decide his opponent's fate; while he's cleansed their souls, they may still be accountable to the government or the people they've wronged. Or you could have an Akasin who fights side-by-side with a Paladin, both of whom strive to redeem as many souls as they can. The choice is really the player's, and I think that's probably for the best, rather than an enforced alignment restriction.
I see what you're saying about the Akasin's ability to fully utilize his class abilities. I had to make some adjustments to rein in a broken mechanic that was pointed out to me, but I see that there's more work yet to be done. I'll take your concerns into account for the next update, and the next batch of feats and Veils will probably include a more extensive re-working of the Akasin Philosophy in particular.
I like the idea of the "anti-Guru" (and that's the kind of idea that the Sineater evolved from), but I butt up against some possible copyright issues there. There was a system in the original Incarnum material called Necrocarnum; I've tried to pay subtle homage to that system with various Veils and mechanics without actually intruding upon its sovereignty, and I have concerns that a true class or philosophy fully embodying that idea might disrupt the delicate balance we're maintaining to bring this material to you.
...I like the idea of the "anti-Guru" (and that's the kind of idea that the Sineater evolved from), but I butt up against some possible copyright issues there. There was a system in the original Incarnum material called Necrocarnum; I've tried to pay subtle homage to that system with various Veils and mechanics without actually intruding upon its sovereignty, and I have concerns that a true class or philosophy fully embodying that idea might disrupt the delicate balance we're maintaining to bring this material to you.
Interesting. Going to have to hunt down a copy of that book.
-Kcinlive
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...I like the idea of the "anti-Guru" (and that's the kind of idea that the Sineater evolved from), but I butt up against some possible copyright issues there. There was a system in the original Incarnum material called Necrocarnum; I've tried to pay subtle homage to that system with various Veils and mechanics without actually intruding upon its sovereignty, and I have concerns that a true class or philosophy fully embodying that idea might disrupt the delicate balance we're maintaining to bring this material to you.Interesting. Going to have to hunt down a copy of that book.
-Kcinlive
I'm pretty sure that you can get a .pdf copy from WotC online somewhere.
Try DrivethruRPG or go to the WotC main site and do a search for it. It's full of a lot of good ideas and exactly one class that can actually perform well from levels 1-20.On an unrelated note, it looks like I forgot to mention that I changed Armory of the Conqueror. It now sits on top of a normal weapon and works a lot like the Guru's Gentle Touch.
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All right guys, here's the final round of updates going into the weekend. I probably won't be checking in until next Wednesday, so all material in the current playtests is going to stay as it is for a bit.
As always, your feedback is appreciated :)
Changelog:
All
Spelling correction in sunder veils rules “Essenc – Esence”
Forcestrike Knuckles ranged attack has a range of 20 feet.
DR granted by Behemoth Hide, Snakehandler’s Gauntlets, and Thurston’s Bladewards now starts at 2 and scales by 1 / Essence.
Daevic
Correction made to Wrath Passion Veil list: Claws of the Beast updated to match new Veil name “Wrathful Claws”
Sea Drake’s Talons now grant the Rake special attack necessary to function properly.
Daevic’s Essence now scales at a rate of level -1.
Guru
Minor change to the Guru’s Alignment entry to remove unnecessary and possibly confusing verbage.
Guru’s Gentle Touch now adds 1d4 per point of Essence invested, rather than increasing the weapon’s size category.
Guru can now use Stunning Fist via any weapon enhanced by his Gentle Touch ability.
Guru Bind progression adjusted correct scaling at level 13 (reflected 5 when it should have been 4).
Absorb Radiance no longer limited to 1/day, but multiple uses cannot be stacked (pool dissipates when ability is next used).
Lambent Blades use cost raised to 5 temp hp. Only grants Brilliant Energy for one round if the Akasin spends a use of Stunning Fist, otherwise grants a similar, scaled down effect.
Lucent Revivification now useable 1/day.
Devour Sin temp hp limited to 2x class level.
Veil of Sins ability to grant partial concealment now limited to 1 round duration.
Vayist discipline edited to utilize temp hp subsystem like other Philosophies.
Comma added to Leaf on the Wind.
Chakra Disruption (Hands) now only applies penalty to attacks made with hands or equivalent limbs.
Various grammar corrections to Chakra disruption descriptions.
Crack the Shell no longer specifically exempts the target from AoOs taken due to Sunder attempts.
Sever the Flow no longer affects magic items wielded or worn by the target, but instead only abilities directly dependent upon the target’s own Essence or magical energy.
Immortal Essence now grants Essence equal to the highest level spell successfully dispelled by Sever the flow, or the Essence invested in suppressed Veils (to a maximum of the Guru’s total Essence Capacity). Clarified that this ability does not stack with itself, but subsequent uses instead extend the duration.
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Just wanted to touch base with you guys again, I have kind of limited contact:
Shape Veil, in addition to a level pre-req, is going to give a specific list of the Veils it can grant. It won't be eligible for certain Veils (specifically Ring and Blood, though I'm considering limiting it even further to exclude Body and potentially one or two others). It's basically going to sync up to the bind unlocking feats. If there's not a feat for the bind, you probably aren't going to be able to access the Veil. This is going to be the best way to mitigate these feats while still keeping them in existence and staying true to the design intent of the project.
Wrath is getting re-imagined so that his Passion wraps into the idea of him throwing himself at people or throwing them around (very Bull Rush focused), while giving him reasons to choose either the THF style or the Natural Weapon style of combat, and keeping those two options in pretty close proximity to each other power-wise through all levels of play.
Desire's capstone is going to be replaced with an either/or ability that allows them to procure a permanent Paramour (basically a powerful cohort) or an equipment based ability that enhances certain types of items and makes them very difficult and dangerous to steal from the Daevic.
Guru, instead of using temp hp to power his abilities, will use Essence Burn as a direct method of powering abilities. He'll basically be able to make a set amount of Essence non-useable until he takes a rest (roughly 1 minute per point of Essence), to power his Philosophes. He may get additional Essence to facilitate this, somewhere between the Daevic and the Vizier (like 25).
Vizier will probably be dropping down to 1/2 BAB and d6 hit die, which really more accurately reflects his capabilities as a full caster type party contributor. This may result in numerous small changes to several Veils. The most notable one is Forcestrike Knuckles, which will now be two Veils:
Forcestrike Knuckles, which applies +2 force damage per point of Essence invested and will be a Daevic/Guru Veil,
and Riven Darts, which will provide a 1d4 + 2/Essence ranged touch attack with a range of 20 + 5/Essence.
Unless something really gnarly shows up in this coming update, I anticipate having PRC's and archetypes out close to the end of February or early March.
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I found a rather ranty review of the original Magic of Incarnum that you may be able to glean some useful critiques from. You may be aware of it, but amid the various frothing of the thread there's some decent insight into what was on the right track and what some of the problems were with the older book.
A lot of the points he makes in here are ones I'd considered myself and tried really hard to address in the new material.
Overly Restrictive Alignment requirements: Alignment plays a very minor role in the materials, but it's not particularly restrictive, and certainly doesn't carry the debilitating restrictions that existed in the original material.
Bland thematics: Hopefully our re-imagining of the power source and it's nature gives a bit more for players to sink their teeth into.
Generic Races: We're still discussing whether to do any races for this book, but I can promise you that if we do my ideas for the new races are very unlike any of the core materials and should provide some interesting and unique options.
Poor mathematical scaling: While this is an ongoing endeavor, I think we've already broken far and away from the original materials, with Veils that stay solid and appropriate at all levels, instead of being insanely good at low levels and laughably pathetic at levels past 10 or so.
Giving classes the tools they need to function: We won't have anything as sadly incomplete as the Soulborn, and the Vizier has been given the tools necessary to actually fill the caster role the Incarnate just couldn't.
Anyways, thanks for pointing that out, always good to see someone else's thoughts and be able to see if you're following the right sign posts, and how you might be able to clean things up even more.
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Changelog:
Desire Daevic’s capstone now grants a paramour or guardian to serve the Daevic instead of the Dominate Monster SLA.
Wrath Daevic’s Passion Bond abilities adjusted to increase his facility with Bull Rushing and make it a complete part of his combat tactics. Multiple changes to most levels of his Passion Bond.
Guru Philosophy abilities updated to use Essence burn instead of temp hp. Numerous small adjustments made to corresponding abilities.
Vizier changed to ½ BAB and d6 hit die.
Vizier skill points changed to 2 + Int mod.
Vizier no longer has access to the Forcestrike Knuckles Veil. Forcestrike Knuckles is now a melee only Veil and the Vizier gains a Veil similar to the former ranged application called Riven Darts.
Vizier’s Hands Essence Bond now lasts ½ level rounds instead of ½ level + Int mod
Vizier’s Feet Essence Bond base range decreased to 10 feet + 5 feet/Essence
Avatar of Light must stay within 30ft of the veilweaver, requires a move action for commands more complex than self defense, and has had its transformation changed to a standard action activation.
Bloody Shroud now converts 3 + 3/Essence damage to Bleed instead of 5 + 5/Essence (or roughly the average value of a d6, rounded down).
Bralani’s Brooch Neck Bind now grants 18 + 2/Essence SR instead of 17 + 1/Essence
Collar of Skilled Instruction clarified to grant the Teamwork feat to both the veilweaver and his allies.
Ditchdigger’s Armlets area of effect no longer increases in size based on Essence invested.
Gorget of the Wyrm now grants energy resistances to the veilweaver and all allies as part of its neck bind.
Guardian Sash added to the Guru Veil list.
Hand Cannons changed to grant elemental enhancements instead of hardlocked Deadly Aim.
Horns of the Minotaur bind changed to grant bonuses to hit instead of size increases.
Light Whip changed so that activating the ability now costs one of your attacks of opportunity for the round.
Martyr’s Veil added to Guru Veil list.
Polar Snowshoes aura can now be deactivated as a free action.
Stone Giant’s Girdle clarified to require hp gained by investing Essence to accrue at the same rate as temp hp lost due to damage.
Shape Veil feat updated with new prereqs and detailed description of mechanics.
Just looking at this I have to ask what was with the massive nerfing to the Vizier? I can understand most of the Veil changes and the updates to the other classes but why the massive changes on the Vizier? With the Veils we have at the moment I worry that the Vizier will be at a huge disadvantage with such a low BAB and hit die. There are not many Veils with great range and I don't like the idea of such a squishy guys getting up so close. I cannot beg enough for you to maintain a 3/4 BAB and d8 hit die.
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The best way to influence what happens with the Vizier is to get me more playtest data :)
Currently I've gotten pretty limited feedback on this thread and the people who were reporting in from the local groups and other forums were expressing some concerns that the Vizier was really pretty much as capable as a wizard but with better staying power, so he was reined back to address those concerns. I honestly could really see this one going either way, so I'm allowing the feedback of playtesters, fans, and followers on the various forums to influence where we go with this. I really can't express enough how important it is for me to hear your thoughts on these classes and the changes I make.
Thank you for your feedback, and I'll definitely be keeping it at the forefront as we go into the next update. The current goal is to get one last round of Veils out (primarily Guru Veils with some bleed over into the other classes) sometime within the next week or so and then leave one more week of playtesting before we roll into archetypes and prestige classes (and likely more feats as the main feats kind of settle into their final forms). If I start seeing a pick up in feedback and input, I'll definitely look at extending the periods between updates and roll outs to give people time to play with everything, but it's been getting pretty quiet lately, which tends to be an indicator that people are ready to either see something new or move on. Was the relative quiet more a reflection that people were pretty happy with the Vizier as opposed to an indicator that people were losing interest?
The best way to influence what happens with the Vizier is to get me more playtest data :)
Currently I've gotten pretty limited feedback on this thread and the people who were reporting in from the local groups and other forums were expressing some concerns that the Vizier was really pretty much as capable as a wizard but with better staying power, so he was reined back to address those concerns. I honestly could really see this one going either way, so I'm allowing the feedback of playtesters, fans, and followers on the various forums to influence where we go with this. I really can't express enough how important it is for me to hear your thoughts on these classes and the changes I make.
Thank you for your feedback, and I'll definitely be keeping it at the forefront as we go into the next update. The current goal is to get one last round of Veils out (primarily Guru Veils with some bleed over into the other classes) sometime within the next week or so and then leave one more week of playtesting before we roll into archetypes and prestige classes (and likely more feats as the main feats kind of settle into their final forms). If I start seeing a pick up in feedback and input, I'll definitely look at extending the periods between updates and roll outs to give people time to play with everything, but it's been getting pretty quiet lately, which tends to be an indicator that people are ready to either see something new or move on. Was the relative quiet more a reflection that people were pretty happy with the Vizier as opposed to an indicator that people were losing interest?
I suppose I understand. And taking more time to look into it I see there are more ranged options than I first recall (I'm playing a vizier until I can bring in my daevic so I usually get their Veils list mixed up with others). Still, I feel like the vizier will only be hampered by these drastic changes to it's hit die and BAB. It definitely has more staying power than a wizard, I can't deny that. However it's damage is not on par and versatility is still beaten out by a a true caster.
I'll give more feedback if you need it here, or do you need me to place it somewhere else. I'd look it up but there is a whole lot to sift through.
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Posting here is just fine. One of the things I'm currently tackling is the Hand Cannons Veil. It worked all right as a joint Daevic/Vizier veil when the Vizier was 3/4 BAB but it doesn't make a lot of sense for the Vizier now.
I'm considering making Hand Cannons a Daevic only or Daevic/Guru Veil, and giving the Vizier an Essence Ballista Veil that basically allows him a single more powerful ranged attack with expanded range and potent single target stopping power (maybe like 1d10 + 1d10 Essence with a range of 100 +5/Essence feet as a standard or full round action against a single target). Thoughts?
Or would you prefer I wait and see if we get the feedback to move the Vizier back to 3/4?
I suppose the real solution you'd go for there is "Move him to 3/4 and also introduce the Essence Ballista Veil"...
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A couple items didn't make it into the main update so I got them added in:
Changelog:
Akasin Philosophy now gains temp hp whenever he takes Essence burn.
Incandescent Strike corrected to allow the Akasin to take Essence burn up to his class level instead of equal to, allowing him to be more judicious in using the ability and making it work as intended.
Travel the Paths of Light now functions as teleport instead of dimension door.
Vayist now restores Essence burn whenever he succeeds on a saving throw or is missed by an enemy attack.
Immortal Essence adjusted so that multiple uses overlap rather than extending the duration, allowing him a second option for Essence burn recovery.
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Hey guys,
I'm working on a way to integrate the Veils by feat option of Shape Veil and the bind feats into the core Essence system while allowing for multi-classing.
What we don't want to do is have a class be able just stack up on Shape Veil and have more facility by level than it should. We also don't want a fighter who has taken Shape Veil 4 times to dip one level of Daevic and suddenly lose facility with his Veils. So what I'm thinking about is giving non-veilweavers an "effective veilweaving level", equal to like 1/2 class level. That would allow us to encode a progression directly into the subsystem and integrate multiclassing. So, a Fighter could potentially have up to, lets say just as an example, 5 veils shaped at one time by 20th level, or a multi-classed Fighter/Daevic would add 1/2 his Fighter levels to his Daevic level to determine his total Veils available, or his normal by level, whichever is greater.
Thoughts, opinions, suggestions?
Dotting for future reference.
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Dotting for future reference.
Please also feel free to check out, play with, and review any of the materials linked in this post!
I'd love to get your feedback, and would love for you to get the chance to play with the new classes and subsystem.
I wonder if there could be make veils in a way where they would be independent of level instead relaying on essence invested, but I am afraid it would require reworking essence system quite a lot.
Oooooh, the Veilwarped Theurge.
Could be a sweet Prestige Class.
I've also passed this thread on to one of my players. Variant magic is kinda our hobby.
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I wonder if there could be make veils in a way where they would be independent of level instead relaying on essence invested, but I am afraid it would require reworking essence system quite a lot.
Elaborate on this idea a bit so I understand where you're coming from. Veils power and scaling do rely on Essence invested, so I'm just trying to see what you're trying to say here.
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Oooooh, the Veilwarped Theurge.
Could be a sweet Prestige Class.
There's currently archetypes, PrCs, and class options to try and get as many classes into this system as possible. We're just waiting until we're sure the base veilweaver classes are ready to put some hours in and get the supporting materials out.
Things you'll see after the Daevic, Guru, and Vizier are fully vetted:A Fighter archetype with the traditional chassis reworked to allow access to the Essence subsystem.
Rogue talents that allow him to manipulate Essence and learn Veils.
An Oracle Incarna Mystery.
A "spell-less" Paladin archetype who replaces his spells and Divine Bond with a limited Veil list and Essence progression.
Prestige classes for combining essence with all of the "traditional" power sources: arcane, divine, martial, and psionic.
A bard archetype that animates Veils with the power of song, forming them into living creatures.
And probably a few other goodies as well. The more feedback I get, the faster we wrap up the base classes, the sooner I get new goodies into your hands, so please playtest and let me know what you think!
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Hey everyone,
So I'm going to be moving to Seattle from Spokane over the weekend and odds are very good that my opportunities to touch bases with everyone are going to be few and sporadic over the course of the next week or so, so I wanted to take this opportunity to kind of check in with everyone.
Things that are happening in the world of Incarna-
We're considering a minor change in terminology, dropping the Incarna verbage all together and bringing the system down to three basic ideas: Essence, Veils, and Binds. At the end of the day, chakra slots = equipment slots is just clunky and feels like an unnecessary attempt to cling to pieces of the old system that aren't really necessary. We may let that chakra terminology go and stick with the existing equipment slot concept that players already know. This isn't a mechanical change, just tightening up the terminology. Similarly, we've got this kind of weird thing where Veils are shaped from Incarna, which is powered by Essence, which is the raw stuff of Incarna.... So we thought we'd just tighten that all up and just call it Essence, which also will allow the fans who've been losing sleep over whether Incarna v. Incarnum is going to be a copyright issue (despite our assurances that it really isn't).
Overall testing on the Vizier seems to indicate that he's solid in his current iteration. If your experiences indicate otherwise, please let me know. Also, if you feel there are any gaps in his Veil list (things you think a blaster/controller/buffer capabale class should have that the Vizier doesn't) let me know, as at this point we're feeling like he's probably about finished. The Dropbox links I posted earlier on this page are always updated with the most current iteration of the playtest classes, so please feel free to go over him and let me know what you think.
The Guru core class is testing really well, so we probably won't be making many changes there. The one big thing we're looking at doing in the next week or two is shifting some abilities between the Vayist and Sineater around so that the obfuscation abilities in Veil of Sins are kind of re-flavored and shifted to the Vayist as wind themed abilities and the Sineater focuses more on gaining things like DR, SR, and temp hp when he devours sins, making him more of a "supernatural Wolverine".
The Daevic.... Well, the Daevic is probably the biggest point of contention amongst the three classes. A lot of people really like him, some people feel he's too powerful, others think his combat power is right but he's too versatile... I'd really like to hear what you all have to say on the Daevic, because he's the one that our most active fans and playtesters just can't seem to come to an agreement on. I also haven't heard much from the Paizo community on this class and that's something I'd love to see change. We're considering some pretty big changes with the class, but I'm hesitant to make those changes without a bit more feedback from a few more sources.
Thanks everyone, and have a fantastic weekend!
We're considering a minor change in terminology, dropping the Incarna verbage all together and bringing the system down to three basic ideas: Essence, Veils, and Binds. At the end of the day, chakra slots = equipment slots is just clunky and feels like an unnecessary attempt to cling to pieces of the old system that aren't really necessary. We may let that chakra terminology go and stick with the existing equipment slot concept that players already know. This isn't a mechanical change, just tightening up the terminology. Similarly, we've got this kind of weird thing where Veils are shaped from Incarna, which is powered by Essence, which is the raw stuff of Incarna.... So we thought we'd just tighten that all up and just call it Essence, which also will allow the fans who've been losing sleep over whether Incarna v. Incarnum is going to be a copyright issue (despite our assurances that it really isn't).
That's probably for the best, for a lot of reasons. Personally I'm less concerned about copyright as... being cheesy. You might not get sued for making a brown carbonated cold beverage called "Caco Calo" but you certainly wouldn't be accused of being classy.
I agree with all of the thoughts here.
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We're considering a minor change in terminology, dropping the Incarna verbage all together and bringing the system down to three basic ideas: Essence, Veils, and Binds. At the end of the day, chakra slots = equipment slots is just clunky and feels like an unnecessary attempt to cling to pieces of the old system that aren't really necessary. We may let that chakra terminology go and stick with the existing equipment slot concept that players already know. This isn't a mechanical change, just tightening up the terminology. Similarly, we've got this kind of weird thing where Veils are shaped from Incarna, which is powered by Essence, which is the raw stuff of Incarna.... So we thought we'd just tighten that all up and just call it Essence, which also will allow the fans who've been losing sleep over whether Incarna v. Incarnum is going to be a copyright issue (despite our assurances that it really isn't).That's probably for the best, for a lot of reasons. Personally I'm less concerned about copyright as... being cheesy. You might not get sued for making a brown carbonated cold beverage called "Caco Calo" but you certainly wouldn't be accused of being classy.
I agree with all of the thoughts here.
Excellent! And agreed with the naming conventions. Andreas and I had this long conversation during the project pitch where I threw like a dozen names out there and he was like "Let's call it Magic of Incarna. Everyone will know what it is and your classes and fluff are different enough that we're well out of copyright territory". I was a little skeptical, but one thing I absolutely have to admit, he was right about pitching under the Incarna name. For all that people were concerned, they also knew exactly what the project was about when they saw the name. And that's what was really important. Hopefully we've garnered enough interest and attention at this point that moving away from that is going to help more than it hurts.
Have you had any opportunity to go over the Daevic and Guru at all? Your insight on the Vizier has been excellent, and you've inspired a couple of Veils that have become some of my personal favorites.
Rather than read the entire thread at this ungodly hour, I'll just ask what has been asked many times before: When is the the potential release date for this? I can't wait to lay my greedy mitts on it.
Have you had any opportunity to go over the Daevic and Guru at all? Your insight on the Vizier has been excellent, and you've inspired a couple of Veils that have become some of my personal favorites.
Honestly I haven't. I may scrape up some time on Sunday but no promises, sadly.
Last night I ran a one-off for one of my groups wherein I went 100% Ultimate Psionics content, just to expose them more. Doesn't matter how many times you tell someone that "X is cool". It's not until you slap a pregen character in front of them and let them manifest their own claws, or mindblade or dump a couple mind thrust powers into a bad guy than it sinks in. I hope to catch up on (at least) the daevic and show that off a bit too.
Hey everyone,
So I'm going to be moving to Seattle from Spokane over the weekend and odds are very good that my opportunities to touch bases with everyone are going to be few and sporadic over the course of the next week or so, so I wanted to take this opportunity to kind of check in with everyone.
Things that are happening in the world of Incarna-
We're considering a minor change in terminology, dropping the Incarna verbage all together and bringing the system down to three basic ideas: Essence, Veils, and Binds. At the end of the day, chakra slots = equipment slots is just clunky and feels like an unnecessary attempt to cling to pieces of the old system that aren't really necessary. We may let that chakra terminology go and stick with the existing equipment slot concept that players already know. This isn't a mechanical change, just tightening up the terminology. Similarly, we've got this kind of weird thing where Veils are shaped from Incarna, which is powered by Essence, which is the raw stuff of Incarna.... So we thought we'd just tighten that all up and just call it Essence, which also will allow the fans who've been losing sleep over whether Incarna v. Incarnum is going to be a copyright issue (despite our assurances that it really isn't).
Good.
Also, it means that I can return to developing ki class that uses chakras :)
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I'm in favor of whatever makes Michael do the most work, so lets scrap the Daevic. :p
I guess my main concern about ditching Incarna in place of just essence, binds, and veils is that it becomes a straightjacket. It changes from veils and binds being a way to use Incarnum to being the way, potentially making future classes or archetypes limited in their thematic characterization.
Or opening the possibility of an Unbound prestige class, I guess.
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I'm in favor of whatever makes Michael do the most work, so lets scrap the Daevic. :p
I guess my main concern about ditching Incarna in place of just essence, binds, and veils is that it becomes a straightjacket. It changes from veils and binds being a way to use Incarnum to being the way, potentially making future classes or archetypes limited in their thematic characterization.
Or opening the possibility of an Unbound prestige class, I guess.
Unless we start thinking of this in terms of essence being the basis of the system and then veils and binds are one way of using and projecting the essence. Virtues/Passions would be another.
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Unless we start thinking of this in terms of essence being the basis of the system and then veils and binds are one way of using and projecting the essence. Virtues/Passions would be another.I'm in favor of whatever makes Michael do the most work, so lets scrap the Daevic. :p
I guess my main concern about ditching Incarna in place of just essence, binds, and veils is that it becomes a straightjacket. It changes from veils and binds being a way to use Incarnum to being the way, potentially making future classes or archetypes limited in their thematic characterization.
Or opening the possibility of an Unbound prestige class, I guess.
This is really what I'm thinking. It might be a small shift in mindset, but basically "Essence", is the core of the system. Veils are one way to utilize it, Passions are another, feats are a third.
We'll also have some cool stuff that allows people to invest Essence in more abstract or unusual focii (like bardic performances). Or a martial archetype that focuses on using Binds and Essence without Veils or focii and instead gains supernatural abilities just because of their ability to release potent amounts of Essence from their Hands or Feet, or what have you. Both the idea and terminology of Incarna really aren't integral to the system. If anything, I think in some ways they detract from the system, making you think that this poorly defined thing is in some way a defining part of the subsystem.
A Vizier with Veils, Binds, and Essence and the word Incarna removed from every sentence (occassionally replaced by the word Essence), works exactly the same as the current write-up. If we actually reinforce the idea that Essence allows all of these widely differing capabilities, then we actually open up possibilities instead of closing them off.
Funny how a change in perspective can change so much. So then Essence takes the place of Incarna. Although, what gives it the Indian flavor? That seemed tied to Essence, and made it different in a sense from any other magic.
If it's just magic suffusing the world, and some can harness it in X ways, while other can only do Y, and then mister Z can only shoot it out from his mouth as rays....
Something to consider, at least.
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Funny how a change in perspective can change so much. So then Essence takes the place of Incarna. Although, what gives it the Indian flavor? That seemed tied to Essence, and made it different in a sense from any other magic.
If it's just magic suffusing the world, and some can harness it in X ways, while other can only do Y, and then mister Z can only shoot it out from his mouth as rays....
Something to consider, at least.
We're looking at a change in terminology to make Essence something that fits more closely with the overall silk road/Persian/Hindi themes we've been going with. This may involve elaborating on the idea of Essence, or defining Essence in a slightly different way. I'm not sure if that's something I can dive into right now, but leave it that we've got some solid plans for the terminology that probably will be enacted closer to the end of the playtest. I'd really like to make sure the mechanics are pretty nailed down before we start spending too much time twiddling with the fiddly flavor bits. Trust that it will all tie together very neatly for the final package and we'll keep a very strong grounding in the cultural flavors we've chosen.