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Not unlike our Path of War project, Magic of Incarna takes a look at a familiar system from the old Dungeons & Dragons, Incarnum, and re-envisions it for Pathfinder. Drawing on primal magic, the veilweavers learn to shape and form their Essence into powerful veils, granting them sublime control and magical power.
Headed by the talented Michael Sayre, known as Ssalarn on many forums, we are extremely happy and proud to start the first Open Playtest of the Incarna rules.
Download the First Playtest Document
Note that the playtest document can (and most certainly will) be updated as playtesting progresses. We would love it if you guys took a look at the rules, gave it a once over and helped us create balanced and interesting choices and options for Pathfinder players all over.
Thanks in advance!
Andreas Rönnqvist
Dreamscarred Press
Design Manager
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i love you guys, i love you guys so much, if you will pay for a plane ticket i will fly out and give you guys hugs. Incarnum for life.
I'm glad to see that excitement!
The Vizier is the first of the new classes, and the goal is for him to kind of showcase the new Veil system. There's a lot of things that are different, and a lot of things you'll probably recognize as a fan of the original Incarnum work.
One of the biggest deviations from the old Incarnum subsystem: No more choosing between class features and loot. You probably will find that there are a few Veils that cover some of the bases you used to need magic items for (and if you don't now, you will soon when I finish going over the master Veil list and add a few more to the Vizier!), but this is not just another way for you to get the same ol' some ol'. Every Veil has some unique abilities or accesses familiar territory in a unique way, and it gives you the option to go ahead and equip that Golembane Scarab you picked up without feeling like you're going to hose yourself over by giving up your Amulet of Natural Armor.
We've got two other classes waiting in the wings as well:
The Daevic, a full BAB veilweaving class who gains their power by bonding with powerful beings of pure Incarna, and the Guru, a more skill-capable class whose class abilities are centered around his chosen Philosophy.
I'm excited to hear what you all have to say, and look forward to your feedback.
Thank you!
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Design Manager
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This is looking promising so far, so from my understanding you got rid of the biggest issue with incarnum the fact that they forced you to give up equipment slots. ***
That's exactly right. I loved the original Magic of Incarnum book, but like most other players I recognized that choosing between actually getting your best class features or getting to use the equipment the system expects you to have is just not good juju.
I'll be getting feats added to the playtest after the Vizier has had some time to circulate as well; I think one of the best things about this subsystem is its ability to play well with other classes, so there will be feats for non-veilweaving classes to pick up Veils and binds, feats to share your Veils with your familiar, animal companion, or mount, and various other goodies to make the material open and available to all classes and existing characters without requiring multi-classing or massive rebuilds.
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Dreamscarred Press, how do I love thee? I cannot count the ways!
Ssalarn, what playtest scenarios are you looking for in particular?
sigh.. I will cross this off my "in development" project schedule...
I can't wait to see it folks.
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MUST HAVE MUST HAVE MUST HAVE
*big ol' happy dance*
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Design Manager
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Ssalarn, what playtest scenarios are you looking for in particular?
So, levels 5-8 and 12-15 are kind of the "hot" levels, and I'd be interested in playtest feedback that lets me know how the Vizier holds up compared to other classes at those levels.
I'm very interested in real play feedback. Anyone willing to build a Vizier and run through really any module, AP, or homebrew adventure is going to be someone whose feedback I am very interested in hearing (not that I don't want to hear from everyone else as well!).
I also want to know how easy it is to understand the system and actually build and play the class. What was difficult, what didn't you have enough information on, things like that.
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Design Manager
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MUST HAVE MUST HAVE MUST HAVE
*big ol' happy dance*
Looking forward to your feedback Orthos! Let me know what you think and how it works for you.
Like I mentioned earlier, there's two more classes and about 40 more Veils waiting in the wings, but we want to make sure that the subsystem itself is something that people are going to grasp and move forward with easily. Magic of Incarnum was kind of a niche interest, and I really want to make the new system capable of encompassing that kind of modular complexity while still being very accessible for newer players, or players who just kind of want to "set and forget" their Essence distribution into their favorite Veils and abilities.
Compared to other Paizo classes, which class do you think has the closest niche to the Vizier?
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Design Manager
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Compared to other Paizo classes, which class do you think has the closest niche to the Vizier?
So that's a pretty interesting question;
The Vizier, by virtue of using the Veil system, is very versatile. At low levels he can click in to almost any party role (except probably healer, although he should be able to feel-good stick the hell out of things with a Wand of CLW), so he probably has the most in common with the bard.
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so my initial impression is that the vizier is now pretty much the only crafter class other than the artificer. (as a consequence of this a crafter character is now a viable option)
The sheer level of utility granted by Path of the Crafter and Transfer Essence is astounding.
Great job so far I will attempt to run some playtests this weekend for a pure path of the crafter/transfer essence vizier and hopefully get to the other paths in the next week or so.
over all though i am really digging this.
After the way the PFization of the Tome of Battle got bungled, my hopes are not high for this.
After the way the PFization of the Tome of Battle got bungled, my hopes are not high for this.
I wouldn't give up hope just yet.
Really? You thought of Path of War as bungled? Man, we could not be more opposite.
Wow...
I didn't like Incarnum, but we'll see how you guys do it.
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YES!
Very cool. I always really, really liked MoI but almost never played it. My main problem with it wasn't the same as other folks though. What I saw as a weakness is that it was written to deliberately be less powerful than other classes.
Almost none of the melds DID ANYTHING. They were mostly buffs. Great, I can have +2 to AC, or I can have +5 to Climb, or I can have darkvision, or resist some energy, or some other cool-but-trivial statboost.
The classes gave up the cool things their non-Incarnum-equivalent classes could do, and in return basically got to shape buff magic items. Well, that's kind of boring.
What I would really like to see is melds that can be offensive. Melds that are tactical and can shape a battlefield. Melds that let you actually DO things.
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Zhayne: What do you feel got bungled with Path of War and how can we help with that?
Zhayne: What do you feel got bungled with Path of War and how can we help with that?
I suspect he's one of those folks that wanted a ToB-remake that didn't have all those silly maneuvers and stances and recovery methods. Much like there'll be plenty of people who want to see a MoI-remake that doesn't involve those silly melds or binds or essentia.
Could be wrong though. I'm just taking the opportunity to point out that some folks are looking for books that aren't at all what they're paying homage to.
Me? I'm thrilled.
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Time for one more quick comment before ending lunch.
What I'm looking for in melds/veils...
I'd like to see something that - for instance - lets the shaper lob out something like magic missile at will. Could be balanced by having charges (say 3) that take five minutes to "refill".
I'd like to see something that lets you - for instance - rupture the ground, making a 5ft deep by 5ft wide fissure out to a distance of 40/50 ft. Function sort of like lightning bolt combined with create pit. What does it do? Anyone crossing it, the fissure functions as difficult terrain, thus costing double-movement. Anyone standing on it makes a Reflex save or falls 5ft (taking no damage) and falls prone.
Those are just samples. The idea being that a shaper should have SOME veils that let him or her alter things around him or her, instead of just changing his or her statblock.
Zhayne: What do you feel got bungled with Path of War and how can we help with that?
While I can't speak for Zhayne, I have heard a lot of grumbling about how it's not written for Pathfinder, but rather for 3.5. That is, there are many, many 3.5isms in it.
Dotted. I will playtest this and provide my comments.
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Design Manager
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Time for one more quick comment before ending lunch.
What I'm looking for in melds/veils...
I'd like to see something that - for instance - lets the shaper lob out something like magic missile at will. Could be balanced by having charges (say 3) that take five minutes to "refill".
I'd like to see something that lets you - for instance - rupture the ground, making a 5ft deep by 5ft wide fissure out to a distance of 40/50 ft. Function sort of like lightning bolt combined with create pit. What does it do? Anyone crossing it, the fissure functions as difficult terrain, thus costing double-movement. Anyone standing on it makes a Reflex save or falls 5ft (taking no damage) and falls prone.
Those are just samples. The idea being that a shaper should have SOME veils that let him or her alter things around him or her, instead of just changing his or her statblock.
I've got some good stuff along these lines that I'll be rolling out for you shortly.
As a little view into the design process, the basic rule for what classes get what kind fo abilities from their veils is:
Vizier: stuff that either looks like a spell but isn't, or straight up SLA's.
Daevic: Veils that give natural attacks or grant other direct damage or CMB-related effects.
Guru: Veils that boost party members or in some way indirectly contribute to the party's total effectiveness in combat, like the ability to create an Incarna channel to another plane and bind a companion, or reflect harmful effects on a successful save.
There's a little bit of bleed over between the classes because I don't want the Veils to be as tightly restricted as they were in the previous incarnation, but that's the general kind of idea. Every class will have Veils that boost relevant skills and defenses.
I've left a number of comments for you, Ssalarn. I still find the arcane imbuements boring, borderline useless, and not living up to the full capacity that you are capable of achieving as a designer.
Praise is good, criticism is useful :)
Zhayne: What do you feel got bungled with Path of War and how can we help with that?While I can't speak for Zhayne, I have heard a lot of grumbling about how it's not written for Pathfinder, but rather for 3.5. That is, there are many, many 3.5isms in it.
Is this a terminology thing or something different?
The reason I ask is that it might be something I can fix when I make the final book. If it's a design paradigm, then not so much, but if it's a terminology thing, I might be able to remedy it.
Zhayne: What do you feel got bungled with Path of War and how can we help with that?While I can't speak for Zhayne, I have heard a lot of grumbling about how it's not written for Pathfinder, but rather for 3.5. That is, there are many, many 3.5isms in it.Is this a terminology thing or something different?
The reason I ask is that it might be something I can fix when I make the final book. If it's a design paradigm, then not so much, but if it's a terminology thing, I might be able to remedy it.
Primarily design paradigm, with some sprinkling of terminology. I don't have the books, mostly due to the reports of the 3.5 design paradigm, so I can't give any specifics on the terminology front. Maybe others can though.
Still taking the Stalker apart, tomorrow is 2nd draft phase, then the review will go up. Short version: A lot of issues, all of which can be fixed.
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I've left a number of comments for you, Ssalarn. I still find the arcane imbuements boring, borderline useless, and not living up to the full capacity that you are capable of achieving as a designer.
Praise is good, criticism is useful :)
Thank you Cheapy!
The Arcane Imbuement abilities were really intended to just be "gravy" on top of the delicious Veil cake, but I feel where you're coming from. I'll spend some time over the next couple nights re-evaluating the Arcane Imbuement bonuses and seeing if I can't come up with something that provides a little more "oomph" without unbalancing the Vizier.
So a question for Cheapy and the community:
IF I were to re-imagine the bonuses granted by Arcane Imbuments, would you be more interested in something that worked like an aura or party buff, sharing some of the Veil bonuses with nearby allies, or would you rather just see the bonuses be a little less situational? The core mechanic itself isn't going anywhere (unless everyone really hates it), but I'm definitely open to making it a little bit flashier.
Reading through the Vizier, I think my main complaint so far is that it's very, very unfocused. The abilities seem all over the place (crafting focus vs Super Tactician focus??) and varying in power (compare boot arcane imbuement with hands. Or hands with chest at the level you get the chest arcane imbuement).
Still need to go through the veils in particular, but they also suffer from lack of focus, especially the belts.
Had always wanted an Pathfinder update of the Incarnum concept.
At a glance, I like the reskinning of the concept and embracing the eastern inspiration, where as the prior edition source tried to walk the muddled path between generic fantasy and the exotic.
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Reading through the Vizier, I think my main complaint so far is that it's very, very unfocused. The abilities seem all over the place (crafting focus vs Super Tactician focus??) and varying in power (compare boot arcane imbuement with hands. Or hands with chest at the level you get the chest arcane imbuement).
Still need to go through the veils in particular, but they also suffer from lack of focus, especially the belts.
One thing to consider, is that the nature of the subsystem is very modular. At low levels, its "pick this cool thing or boost I want". As you level up, you start combining the Veils you like into the playstyle you're going for (melee, ranged, control?). With the Vizier's Veilshifting, there may be The combinations of Veils are ultimately as important, if not more so, than any individual class ability. This is a legacy of the original Incarnum system as well, which was also very modular and adaptable.
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I've got some good stuff along these lines that I'll be rolling out for you shortly.
As a little view into the design process, the basic rule for what classes get what kind fo abilities from their veils is:
Vizier: stuff that either looks like a spell but isn't, or straight up SLA's.
Daevic: Veils that give natural attacks or grant other direct damage or CMB-related effects.
Guru: Veils that boost party members or in some way indirectly contribute to the party's total effectiveness in combat, like the ability to create an Incarna channel to another plane and bind a companion, or reflect harmful effects on a successful save.
There's a little bit of bleed over between the classes because I don't want the Veils to be as tightly restricted as they were in the previous incarnation, but that's the general kind of idea. Every class will have Veils that boost relevant skills and defenses.
Fair enough, and a reasonable design goal. I guess what I've always had a hankering for is a shaper who has some blastiness to them.
Another effect I'd thought of was the ability to freeze ice. The image of a meldshaper freezing small ice floes to be able to walk across water is juicy and game-changing in a way that hasn't been done before.
I'll try to set aside some time Sunday to do some proofreading and comment from a more educated standpoint than I have to date.
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Fair enough, and a reasonable design goal. I guess what I've always had a hankering for is a shaper who has some blastiness to them.
Another effect I'd thought of was the ability to freeze ice. The image of a meldshaper freezing small ice floes to be able to walk across water is juicy and game-changing in a way that hasn't been done before.
The Vizier is probably going to be the place to house those ideas.
I love the ice flow idea, would you mind terribly if I borrow that inspiration? I'm in need of a couple more Feet slot Veils....There are some companion Veils to the Storm Gauntlets that are still being hammered out on the back end right now, I have a strong suspicion they're going to help give you the "blastiness" you're looking for.
There's going to be an update tonight to bring in the feats that will open this system up to teh core and base classes, and I'll try and take that opportunity to bring in more of the Veils.
First impressions:
Eldritch Insight: I am not sure that Eldritch Insight ability to count vizier's levels as arcane caster level actually does anything for staves - I am reading the ability to use wielder's caster level in place of staff caster level as only applying when uses the staff - by triggering a spell from own spell list contained within the staff. Without own spell list or being treated as a member of a specific arcane class (sorcerer/wizard, witch, bard, etc) vizier would use its arcane caster level while triggering which exactly spells? Note that it is subject to interpretation.
I like that improved essence capacity is placed at 4th level and every 8th levels thereafter, but that means that vizier tends to increases his essence capacity by two points at 12th level. It might happen to be a good jump in power in actual playtest though.
Arcane Imbuement: Could the order not be fixed? Instead the character could imbue one item at 1st level with one additional per two levels on any of the following slots thus having the option of selecting the imbuement bonuses he would get - they are not so powerful to be disallowed in different order.
- Would hands be overpowered if the bonus applied to more than melee attacks? Also if it was other bonus than competence it would stack with bard's inspire courage.
- Head: is it only me or others would prefer to get some more interesting bonus for head?
- Wrists and other slots... I am not exactly convinced about specific picks. I would consider making their more correspond to bonuses related to particular slots.
- Chest bonus I like but at 17th level additional 2-10 hit points before death is not much and at 20th level extra 14 isn't really impressive either... The bonus could be +3 or more to Constitution score for purpose of calculating death threshold per point of invested Essence.
Mystic Attunement: Seems interesting but I would either added a bonus on 4th level to have regular progress of 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10 or remove bonus at 8th level to have mystic bond at 2, 6 and 10 (maybe adding possible bonus at 14th and 18th?).
Veilshifting: Again, irregular progression... I would try to move it between levels. Or just add second use at 10th level and have 3/day at 14th and 4/day at 18th.
Chakra Rebirth: I am not exactly feeling that ability...
Additional thoughts:
- At 20th level vizier should be able to have 10 veils, one for each imbued slot.
- I don't see actual chakra bind ability describing the binding process but it might be just that its past midnight and I am tired after afternoon work shift at new work.
*sigh* I thought about making a class somewhat like that with removed references to incarna.
I browsed through the previous posts and noticed some questions about arcane imbuement - I think that the general mechanic is sound and should stay granting some bonuses but they should be more general and/or of greater overall usability than the current ones.
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Design Manager
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The reason for the order of Arcane Imbuement is because that is the class ability that actually unlocks your Chakra Binds. So when you get Arcane Imbuement (Hands) you are also gaining the ability to use the bind abilities of Veils occupying that slot.
That's also why the Arcane Imbument bonuses aren't flashy abilities; the real prize is getting your Bind for that slot, the bonuses are just icing on the Veil cake. That being said, I think I'll be taking the benefits of Arcane Imbument out back and rehashing everything a little bit; the order is going to stay the same, but the granted boosts will be a little flashier and a little less situational.
Some things to consider about Chakra Rebirth- this is basically free Essence that just has to be used for specific Veils. This is a very potent boost in ability for the Vizier, and it basically allows him to completely adapt to any situation. If he finds out he bound a bunch of Veils that just aren't right for the situation he found himself in, he can switch them out all out very quickly and even gain the benefits of all of his Binds for the new Veils. He can go from skill-monkey, to controller, to dps, to tank at pretty much the drop of a hat.
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An idea to consider for arcane imbuement bonuses: maybe each slot could have two bonuses included - one physical and one mental/spiritual, or maybe a few different small bonuses so it would be attractive bonus for different roles. At the moment hands bonus is attractive only while vizier is in melee dps mode, chest is primarily tank bonus.
Or maybe each slot could give bonus to a skill or action and a bonus to saving throw against particular category of conditions, as associated with various chakras and body parts.
Uh, you might have forgotten add some important limitation in the shared description because as far as I can tell, currently 1st level on-evil, non-chaotic vizier can have lantern archon following him everywhere constantly with avatar of light veil. Having lantern archon minion at 1st level is a tad... overpowered.
The reason for the order of Arcane Imbuement is because that is the class ability that actually unlocks your Chakra Binds. So when you get Arcane Imbuement (Hands) you are also gaining the ability to use the bind abilities of Veils occupying that slot.
So maybe instead having access to all chakra binds they would be divided into groups of least, lesser and greater chakras? (was that used in Magic Of Incarnum or not? I do not remember)
Some things to consider about Chakra Rebirth- this is basically free Essence that just has to be used for specific Veils. This is a very potent boost in ability for the Vizier, and it basically allows him to completely adapt to any situation. If he finds out he bound a bunch of Veils that just aren't right for the situation he found himself in, he can switch them out all out very quickly and even gain the benefits of all of his Binds for the new Veils. He can go from skill-monkey, to controller, to dps, to tank at pretty much the drop of a hat.
Yes, but I would consider dividing it into multiple abilities - ability to shape veils unlimited number of times per day and ability to boost invested essence of single ability... Still, it's only my first impression. I try to give some more opinions soon after I read through the veils and have a chance to thin about them.
The Crafter's path is boring. It's entirely bonus feats and bonus skills for the levels that people actually play. The Seer's path, despite not making much sense given the scope of the class, IMO, at least gives you something you couldn't have anyhow.
The fluff is all about influencing the flow of energy through inanimate objects.
Give 'em an interesting ability based on animate object. This is unique and interesting, and really fits with the theme of versatile masters of energy.
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As far Path of War goes, I don't want to steal any thunder at all from Ssalarn's project here, so if I may beg that those with comments regarding Path of War take it to the appropriate thread? Thanks!
-X
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Well, this is interesting.
Much like the arcanist, this class will be hard to playtest because their focus is on versatility. Their power comes from their ability to adapt, not one off combats.
I'll have to think about ways to quickly playtest this sort of thing, since it'll be essential. Anyone have any ideas on this?
